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Kinsa

I do not understand why people eschew modern medicine. JAWM

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I think she worded it poorly. Medicine and the human body are much more complex than science can keep up with ... Yet. Especially when you get lobbyists involved. It becomes about profit for big business and government vs. what is actually best for the population of people the government is supposed to protect.

 

Yes it is shameful that the US allows profit to influence medicine. 

But do you really think the long distance reiki healers do it for free?  Please.  There is enormous money in preying on the sick who are scared of "science."

Edited by poppy
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I agree. 2nd time in two days you have misinterpreted my posts. If you need clarification, ask. Putting words in someones mouth while taking phrases out of context isnt helpful to a conversation..

 

Did I misinterpret this? "Who would view science any better than crystals after it became clear that its a game of Russian roulette, unless its a pandemic and there is some focus on a cure."

It sounds to me like you are modern medicine is playing the lottery. No? I guess I need clarification. But I didn't want to go to far down that route since, obviously, this is a JAWM me post and you do not agree with the OP at all.

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Yes it is shameful that the US allows profit to influence medicine.

But do you really think the long distance reiki healers do it for free? Please. There is enormous money in preying on the sick who are scared of "science."

I agree about money. Big Pharma is profit driven for sure. But it cracks me up when my sil talks all the time about modern medicine killing everyone for profit while she is charging $65.00 for 45 minutes of vulcan mind meld whackyness that has no scientific basis of any kind. Follow the money. I am fairly certain the EO industry is all about crazy piles of dough for them to roll in!

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Okay. I read the link. Not for me! Will continue to fo catatonic when she talks about her practice so she doesn't tey to force herself on me. No eye contact no eye contact!

I find reiki to be a great stress reliever. I doubt any medical benefits though.

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I find reiki to be a great stress reliever. I doubt any medical benefits though.

And see given that stress has negative effects on the body, I can see a lot of supportive value in it. My niece does therapeutic massage and she is the reason I can live with my ankle injury because she helps so much with inflammation.

 

It is the claims that get me. My sil claims reiki can cure cancer.

 

That is insane. It should be, in my opinion, illegal. The oncology group my family has dealt with does not ever claim they cure cancer. They are open and honest about there being no magic there, no miracle. It might work, here are the statistics. It might not.

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I think I'd like some cranial sacral therapy :) will it help when one of your sacroiliac joints is fused to your hipbone???...what is an alexander technique?

My sister used to be a paramedic in your city. The stories she tells are hilarious about the woo people would use, and then call 911 when they were seriously ill--but then she left EMS to be an essential oils practitioner, so there's that.

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My sister used to be a paramedic in your city. The stories she tells are hilarious about the woo people would use, and then call 911 when they were seriously ill--but then she left EMS to be an essential oils practitioner, so there's that.

Given what they pay medics here, I can see it. Lots more money in voodoo, fewer hours, less stress.

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Given what they pay medics here, I can see it. Lots more money in voodoo, fewer hours, less stress.

 

One has to admit, after watching the Magma Rocks part of that scams video, one can't help but think of the $$ that could be made quite easily in a couple of hours...

 

I would never do it - I can't get past the ethical part of screwing people over - but it seems that many don't have that mindset.

 

This is why watching videos like that (seeing how people prey on our minds) is very worthwhile.  We finished homeschooling back in 2012, but I still had my kids watch that video when they were home from college.  They found it VERY worthwhile for their continuing education.  People can be so easily fooled - normal people - smart people.  Our brains are wired to believe what we "see."  It's up to us educators to show them the things they need to watch out for - and that video series (using info from many top universities) is quite a good one, esp that episode (when talking about some of these "options").

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Part of this though is that you have no idea what it is and testing could give you answers.  My mom has something - still awaiting biopsy results - and if it's benign (or in general, not a bad cancer) as they think it is at this point, they're thinking it's treatable and all will be well.

 

You could be putting up with "stuff" you don't have to be putting up with - all due to not wanting to have a simple test (that my mom has had twice now with no problems at all - it's an easy test).

 

Now for those of us who can't get them to check out causes... it's a totally different frustration.

 

As it is for those with answers who make their choices (hopefully informed choices).

 

What answers?  That I have acid reflux?  I already know that.  I'm already taking something that controls it.  I have no symptoms so long as I take it regularly.

 

There are no other treatments out there other than other medications.  Which why would I switch since the medication I'm taking works.

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If you don't agree with a JAWM, its fine to keep scrolling instead of offering a dissenting viewpoint . Actually it's preferred. Or if that's not something you can handle, you can always start your own topic.

 

I haven't seen anyone dissenting with the OP.  Everyone has said rejecting allopathic medicine in hopes of curing serious disease with alternative treatments is a bad idea.  Some feel they can be useful, sometimes, alongside, which is a pretty conservative position, really.

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What answers?  That I have acid reflux?  I already know that.  I'm already taking something that controls it.  I have no symptoms so long as I take it regularly.

 

There are no other treatments out there other than other medications.  Which why would I switch since the medication I'm taking works.

 

My mom's "acid reflux" wasn't.  It was a symptom of what she has now (an unknown mass where her esophagus and stomach meet).  Remove that mass (once they find out what she is dealing with) and the problem could end up totally fixed.  No meds needed.  Long term use of those meds seem to affect the kidneys in not-so-great ways, but I don't want to derail this thread by adding more than these basics.

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My mom's "acid reflux" wasn't.  It was a symptom of what she has now (an unknown mass where her esophagus and stomach meet).  Remove that mass (once they find out what she is dealing with) and the problem could end up totally fixed.  No meds needed.  Long term use of those meds seem to affect the kidneys in not-so-great ways, but I don't want to derail this thread by adding more than these basics.

 

Yeah I have no hope that it would be something like that.  There is pretty much nobody in my family without it and they've all had the tests and they were all told the same thing.  So what's the chances I'd have something completely different? 

 

I actually do have an anatomical issue in that area that was discovered.  You know what they told me about that?  Nothing.  Not a damn thing.  They scared the crap out of me insisting on extra testing to tell me NOTHING.  They even called me in for an extra appointment to tell me nothing.  Heck the doctor even kinda wondered why I was there for a follow up. 

 

I agree, I'm not thrilled about long term use of that stuff so I do plan to go see someone for that reason.  Although I guess they'll just tell me to keep taking it because that's what most doctors do.

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Yes it is shameful that the US allows profit to influence medicine.

But do you really think the long distance reiki healers do it for free? Please. There is enormous money in preying on the sick who are scared of "science."

Holy non-sequitur, Batman.

 

:rolleyes:

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Yes it is shameful that the US allows profit to influence medicine. 

But do you really think the long distance reiki healers do it for free?  Please.  There is enormous money in preying on the sick who are scared of "science."

 

 

I agree about money. Big Pharma is profit driven for sure. But it cracks me up when my sil talks all the time about modern medicine killing everyone for profit while she is charging $65.00 for 45 minutes of vulcan mind meld whackyness that has no scientific basis of any kind. Follow the money. I am fairly certain the EO industry is all about crazy piles of dough for them to roll in!

 

Yes. While it's not as big as the pharmaceutical industry, supplements and other alternative medicines are a multi-billion dollar industry. Yet, you don't hear people complaining about Big Supp or Big Alt-med. It's like they think all that stuff is just some very concerned person who has the secret cure* for everything and mixes concoctions in his or her kitchen.

 

*That's another thing that gets me. 

 

The secret doctors won't tell you

The secret food that will extend your life

The secret natural product that-

The secret ....

 

Like there are these big medical secrets scientists and doctors are keeping from people because...because why? They want people to die?  :rolleyes:

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Same topic with a tangent...  My family was talking the other day about who had been saved by life saving medicine or procedures at some point in their lives, and who would not be alive today if it weren't for the treatment.  We realized that three of my children and my husband would all be gone!  (I know, kind of a weird conversation... :))  It'd just be me and two out of five children left by now.

Edited by J-rap
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I haven't seen anyone dissenting with the OP.  Everyone has said rejecting allopathic medicine in hopes of curing serious disease with alternative treatments is a bad idea.  Some feel they can be useful, sometimes, alongside, which is a pretty conservative position, really.

 

I have never heard the term "allopathic" until this thread, so I googled it. It is basically a derisive term, yes?

 

"Although medicine never accepted the label of allopathy, nonmedical practitioners such as chiropractors, homeopaths, and naturopaths regularly misrepresent physicians as 'allopaths.' This is usually done in order to make differences between their practice guilds appear based upon conflicting philosophies rather than ideology versus science."  (from page 1 of googling it)

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Otoh, scientifically conducted studies are showing that mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy is most effective against anxiety, attention deficit, and PTSD.

Edited by Amy in NH
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Yes. While it's not as big as the pharmaceutical industry, supplements and other alternative medicines are a multi-billion dollar industry. Yet, you don't hear people complaining about Big Supp or Big Alt-med. It's like they think all that stuff is just some very concerned person who has the secret cure* for everything and mixes concoctions in his or her kitchen.

 

*That's another thing that gets me. 

 

The secret doctors won't tell you

The secret food that will extend your life

The secret natural product that-

The secret ....

 

Like there are these big medical secrets scientists and doctors are keeping from people because...because why? They want people to die?  :rolleyes:

 

It goes along with the current line of thinking (for many) that anything seen from a "normal" (credible) source is suspicious and not to be trusted, but that overheard while in the grocery store line is pretty much gospel truth.

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Yeah for some conditions it makes me wonder as well.

 

My mother had advanced stage ovarian cancer.  She went through 2 major surgeries, 2 rounds of chemo, 2 rounds  of radiation, thousands of dollars worth of drugs to combat side effects, about 20 hospitals stays (where she contracted an antibiotic resistant infection twice that needed constant in home IV treatment), and then died.  She had about three months of time where she was not constantly being treated. And during that time she was in a great deal of mental anguish. 

 

We all believed she might have a chance.  She had no chance and they should have said so. 

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Otoh, scientifically conducted studies are showing that mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy is most effective against anxiety, attention deficit, and PTSD.

I am not a doctor and don't play one on TV but I have heard a lot of back and forth regarding this.  The linked article below is the latest thing I have read.  Some hear might find it useful (or irritating, depending on your point of view going into this :)  ).

 

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemotherapy-doesnt-work-not-so-fast-a-lesson-from-history/

 

 

ETA:  And from personal experiences with a lot of cancer in my family I DO think that sometimes chemotherapy and radiation were chosen not because there was ANY chance of saving the patient but because they didn't know what else to do.  On the flip side, claims that chemotherapy only cures like 2% doesn't seem to be taking into consideration the details of individual cancers and situations.  Sometimes it DOES seem to help, significantly.  Doctors (well, people in general) making blanket statements about very complex physical systems and medical procedures seems very unhelpful to me for someone who is actually trying to determine a medical course of action for their particular situation.

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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Paramedics saved ds and me. The end. Trauma docs and surgeons fixed him. We would both be dead without real medicine. Shoot I would have died after baby three without hospital, CNM, LD nurses, blood transfusions.

 

I will take my vitamin d3 to fix low levels, vitamin c for immune support, put peppermint oil in the vaporizer because the scent soothes us when we are congested, get my massages and all because it is supportive. Nothing wrong with supportive therapy.

 

It is the voodoo, mystical healing claims that just send me off.

 

Seriously, if the secret cure for cancer was an herb from your back yard, this would not be an actual secret! 7 billion people on planet earth a huge portion of them with internet access....so ya...not buying the secret thing. The gossip chain would have spilled the beans by now and cancer would be like getting tonsilitis. Here is your pill. Take three times a day for ten days.

Edited by FaithManor
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It goes along with the current line of thinking (for many) that anything seen from a "normal" (credible) source is suspicious and not to be trusted, but that overheard while in the grocery store line is pretty much gospel truth.

 

Yeah I do try not to fall for alternatives simply because it seems possibly good given that the mainstream stuff is over sold.  However, I do understand how that happens.  If you've been disenchanted with the usual treatments you start to wonder if they have gotten too much of it wrong.

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Otoh, scientifically conducted studies are showing that mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy is most effective against anxiety, attention deficit, and PTSD.

Those chemo numbers are misleading. You can't group cancers and chemo treatment like that and be suspect of anyone that does. The success rate depends on the treatment point and the cancer type. Cancer is not cancer is not cancer. Mutations make certain cancers more treatable than others and certain individuals are more treatable than others.

 

Here's a pretty basic pick apart though of the 2% fallacy.

 

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemotherapy-doesnt-work-not-so-fast-a-lesson-from-history/

 

ETA- OneStep beat me to it.

Edited by texasmom33
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Paramedics saved ds and me. The end. Trauma docs and surgeons fixed him. We would both be dead without real medicine. 

 

This gets me wondering if anyone has tried any sort of alternative healing for basic broken bones and blood vessels or trauma damaged organs.... ;)

 

"Ma'am, we're going to call an ambulance - you can't walk/breathe/whatever."

 

"Um no, can you get my bottle of ______ instead?  That will work."   :lol:

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Those chemo numbers are misleading. You can't group cancers and chemo treatment like that and be suspect of anyone that does. The success rate depends on the treatment point and the cancer type. Cancer is not cancer is not cancer. Mutations make certain cancers more treatable than others and certain individuals are more treatable than others.

 

Here's a pretty basic pick apart though of the 2% fallacy.

 

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemotherapy-doesnt-work-not-so-fast-a-lesson-from-history/

Exactly.

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Those chemo numbers are misleading. You can't group cancers and chemo treatment like that and be suspect of anyone that does. The success rate depends on the treatment point and the cancer type. Cancer is not cancer is not cancer. Mutations make certain cancers more treatable than others and certain individuals are more treatable than others.

 

Here's a pretty basic pick apart though of the 2% fallacy.

 

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemotherapy-doesnt-work-not-so-fast-a-lesson-from-history/

 

True

On top of that though there are also other factors that probably have influence.  For example, my mother on top of having an incurable advanced stage cancer, was in very poor health.  She had so many health problems and took so many medications that good grief I have to wonder if the treatments didn't kill her faster than had she done nothing but been made comfortable. 

 

I think it is ok they gave her the option to try.  I still hold onto hope that in some very rare cases it'll work out.  But they should stop overselling it. 

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Otoh, scientifically conducted studies are showing that mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy is most effective against anxiety, attention deficit, and PTSD.

I am not going to go into detail, but I am so jaded by my mom's experience with chemo that if I'm ever dxd with cancer I think I would just accept my lot in life, forego treatment, and enjoy the rest of my days. It was awful.

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I am not going to go into detail, but I am so jaded by my mom's experience with chemo that if I'm ever dxd with cancer I think I would just accept my lot in life, forego treatment, and enjoy the rest of my days. It was awful.

 

Yes, if I was told I had advanced stage ovarian cancer NO WAY would I go through with what she did.  NO NO NO  That was completely ridiculous.  That was like here let's put you in a hellish prison before you die...just cuz we can. 

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Otoh, scientifically conducted studies are showing that mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy is most effective against anxiety, attention deficit, and PTSD.

The effectiveness of chemotherapy is very dependent on the type and stage of cancer; it is not reasonable to say that chemotherapy is 5% effective without specifying what chemotherapy for what cancer at what stage.

 

Here's one example of a cancer for which chemotherapy has proven very successful; my sister is a survivor:

 

http://theoncologist.alphamedpress.org/content/10/10/815.long

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On the chemo people also need to realize that AML type things are much more easily treated with chemo than say ovarian cancer. Or types of pancreatic cancer. When I worked on pharma trials for pancreatic cancer the outcome was how many more months you lived. Not if you were cured. That is an outcome explicitly stated in a trial. The problem comes in post trial when doctors may not get that point across successfully to patients. Although some patients and their families have selective hearing on that too. The point of the drug development is to give people options. Not control their lives. The issues come in that in this country in particular, people want to have blind trust and expect doctor knows best, without having to do the heavy lifting of evaluating what they want their death to be. That puts a lot on the doctor and I think helps muddle things. I do think that is changing. Not to say there aren't surgeon-god-fix anything types who overpromise because they can't be troubled with dealing with a family honestly. But it's not black and white. Some people want to extend life and nothing more and that's what these drugs can do. I assure you- many people see quantity as the goal, not quality until it's too late.

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For what it is worth, in terms of cancer treatment effectiveness, the oncology team explained to my dna donor that it is all about the stage of cancer, the type, and the age and condition when found. They told him he cannot be cured, cannot be put into remission, and with chemo statistically would not live more than a year or two at the very outside. They discouraged chemo and encouraged supportive therapy and quality of life. But this was at Beaumont Hospital...a world class facility. He opted for chemo because "I have to live as long as possible because my wife is incompetent and dependent on me." Sigh....

 

So he suffered through rounds of chemo he should not have had. His call. My brother and I did not get in the middle of it.

 

I do think some docs are not good at conveying odds. Some cancers are super duper treatable with high success rates from chemo or radiation or genetic therapy which looks very promising. Others simply are killers no matter what, brutal. Many people have not been properly informed, and my assumption is that liability drives this. I could so see some family member suing for millions of dollars because he/she did not think the doctor should have been honest with granny about her prospects thus granny chose not to be treated.

 

Those kind of wrongful death suit often drives the advice we do get from the medical community. They can't really be sued for doing too much - the jury isn't going to award mega millions against the doc that pulled out all the stops to save granny if granny agreed to it - but may darn well be accused of killing granny by not giving her enough hope or influencing her against treatment.

Edited by FaithManor
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I don't know what salt lamps are about.

 

 

 

 

I don't get them either. Dh's sister is totally on the woo train full time.

 

Last week FIL was in a car accident (he's okay) and we went to check on him.. Dh took him to go see his car and to pick up a rental. I waited at the house and SIL was there. I kid you not:

 

-First she pulled out a notebook where she said she wrote notes from her last psychic reading. She was lamenting the fact that she can't read her shorthand and she wished she had recorded it instead.

 

-Then she took a salt lamp (see why I quoted you?) out of her bag that she said she bought for FIL at the psychic fair, and set it up on his windowsill. She said "they really work". I refused to bite and didn't ask her what they supposedly do.

 

-Finally, she picked up her craft bin of beads -not just any beads apparently - magical beads. She said she was making chakra wind chimes for her grandson.

 

I like her, she's kind-hearted. But I started a totally unrelated subject about another family member's coming baby because I just couldn't let myself get into the woo anti-woo discussion. I told dh on the way home and he just shook his head. There's nothing you can say to her to get her to see reality.

Edited by Lady Florida.
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I am not a doctor and don't play one on TV but I have heard a lot of back and forth regarding this.  The linked article below is the latest thing I have read.  Some hear might find it useful (or irritating, depending on your point of view going into this :)  ).

 

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemotherapy-doesnt-work-not-so-fast-a-lesson-from-history/

 

 

ETA:  And from personal experiences with a lot of cancer in my family I DO think that sometimes chemotherapy and radiation were chosen not because there was ANY chance of saving the patient but because they didn't know what else to do.  On the flip side, claims that chemotherapy only cures like 2% doesn't seem to be taking into consideration the details of individual cancers and situations.  Sometimes it DOES seem to help, significantly.  Doctors (well, people in general) making blanket statements about very complex physical systems and medical procedures seems very unhelpful to me for someone who is actually trying to determine a medical course of action for their particular situation.

 

That's a good article and why I think individuals need to make informed decisions based upon their situation.  Not all situations are identical.  Not everyone is going to think the ends justify the means (for their situation).  No one has a crystal ball to predict where they will fall in the odds.

 

It's such a personal decision that I can't make a call for anyone TBH.  It's why I said I'll support anyone with their decision for chemical treatments, other (real) treatments, or none.  I'll also make sure they've watched that bit about Magma Rocks, so they're (hopefully) not falling for quackery.  Informed decision making is them deciding for themselves what they want to do.  It's their life.

 

And when/if I have to do it, it will be my decision.  I'd hope others would respect that too.

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For what it is worth, in terms of cancer treatment effectiveness, the oncology team explained to my dna donor that it is all about the stage of cancer, the type, and the age and condition when found. They told him he cannot be cured, cannot be put into remission, and with chemo statistically would not live more than a year or two at the very outside. They discouraged chemo and encouraged supportive therapy and quality of life. But this was at Beaumont Hospital...a world class facility. He opted for chemo because "I have to live as long as possible because my wife is incompetent and dependent on me." Sigh....

 

So he suffered through rounds of chemo he should not have had. His call. My brother and I did not get in the middle of it.

 

I do think some docs are not good at conveying odds. Some cancers are super duper treatable with high success rates from chemo or radiation or genetic therapy which looks very promising. Others simply are killers no matter what, brutal. Many people have not been properly informed, and my assumption is that liability drives this. I could so see some family member suing for millions of dollars because he/she did not think the doctor should have been honest with granny about her prospects thus granny chose not to be treated.

 

Those kind of wrongful death suit often drives the advice we do get from the medical community. They can't really be sued for doing too much - the jury isn't going to award mega millions against the doc that pulled out all the stops to save granny if granny agreed to it - but may darn well be accused of killing granny by not giving her enough hope or influencing her against treatment.

I agree. I will also say many people don't want to do the research to understand what is going on. Many people don't even understand the definition of the word "cancer" until an immediate family member is diagnosed. Even then I don't think a lot of people learn the mechanisms. I will say that I think a great disservice has been done by lumping everything as "cancer" because it makes people think it is one thing. One simple thing that has a "cure". Well it's not. And "it" doesn't have a single cure anymore than there is a single cure for bacteria, viruses, or anything else. But businesses (Race for the cure anyone?) frame it that way to raise money and the misperceptions grow. I worked on trials where we ran your genome sequence- identified your particular mutation and then matched the most promising treatment candidates accordingly. But People don't understand how much money that costs to have the technology to do that- all of it adds up to the giant mystery of the oncology industry. People see the charges and are infuriated at the costs. It's so much to pick apart often for people in shock over a diagnosis. So I understand why people fall for the snake oil. Even as an insider it's a lot to understand and being on side of the table doesn't mean you can predict what you'll do on the other if that makes sense.

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My uncle was given 6 months to live from his cancer after chemo did not put him into remision.  He went 100% altertnative and lived another 2.5 good years.  It might have happened anyway.  There is no way to know.  But I do believe that the foods we eat, the stress we eradicate, the exercising we do all help the body fight off whatever ails us.  Your body is like a car.  Better fuel=better performance.  Not a cure but better quality of life.

 

Another friend will never do chemo because when she was a teenager she felt sloan kettering used her father as a guinea pig and misled her family.

 

One of dh's doctors did the woo woo muscle testing.  Dh went along with it while we were there but it was so ridiculous. Really, a slide of bacteria while you hold something in your hand and the doc pushes on your arm.  I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you.  At least his doc said it was an out there thing and he didn't know why it worked, it just did.

 

There is so much information out there and so much false information and so many people telling you their young living essential oils will cure what ails you that it makes medical difficult to navigate successfully.

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Honestly, with cancer, I don't know what I would do. I really think it would just depend on the prognosis. One of the best and most progressive cancer doctors in our area told me (during one of my mom's visits) that if the cancer doesn't kill you, often the damage to your body and organs from treatment will. Chemo is certainly not without its own issues, and I think some people may just prefer to not put themselves through that.

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I agree. I will also say many people don't want to do the research to understand what is going on. Many people don't even understand the definition of the word "cancer" until an immediate family member is diagnosed. Even then I don't think a lot of people learn the mechanisms. I will say that I think a great disservice has been done by lumping everything as "cancer" because it makes people think it is one thing. One simple thing that has a "cure". Well it's not. And "it" doesn't have a single cure anymore than there is a single cure for bacteria, viruses, or anything else. But businesses (Race for the cure anyone?) frame it that way to raise money and the misperceptions grow. I worked on trials where we ran your genome sequence- identified your particular mutation and then matched the most promising treatment candidates accordingly. But People don't understand how much money that costs to have the technology to do that- all of it adds up to the giant mystery of the oncology industry. People see the charges and are infuriated at the costs. It's so much to pick apart often for people in shock over a diagnosis. So I understand why people fall for the snake oil. Even as an insider it's a lot to understand and being on side of the table doesn't mean you can predict what you'll do on the other if that makes sense.

 

Then again the first thing they tell you is DON'T GOOGLE IT. 

 

Of course then I go home and google it.  But despite the overwhelming information that you cannot cure ovarian cancer under those conditions, my mother was led to believe she had a chance.  No doubt about that.

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Most large oncology hospitals have alternative treatment departments to help people with diet, stress, and offer things like acupuncture etc to alleviate some of the effects. I personally don't know an MD who disputes that those can be helpful. It seems, in my experience, that the alt-medicine group is far more dismissive of mainline medicine than the other way around when it comes to oncology.

 

I will say working on the trials I did made me think about quality of life issues and other decisions of what I would and wouldn't put myself though if diagnosed that I probably wouldn't have had given thought to at my age. I am definitely NOT a pull out all of the stops person. I think the difference comes in knowing what to expect versus thinking some non-proven treatment is going to save the day. Also Americans have a pretty unique relationship/viewpoint of death compared to many other cultures. It all plays into the reactions people have and the decisions they make.

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In my mom's case, her prognosis was always grim. At least that's what we read on the internet about her type of cancer. Yet her oncologist was always optimistic. Putting her through more and more treatments even though it clearly was a losing battle. In one breath he was saying we might he able to more treatment and in the next we were told to take her home to die... which she did a month later.

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I will say working on the trials I did made me think about quality of life issues and other decisions of what I would and wouldn't put myself though if diagnosed that I probably wouldn't have had given thought to at my age. I am definitely NOT a pull out all of the stops person. I think the difference comes in knowing what to expect versus thinking some non-proven treatment is going to save the day. Also Americans have a pretty unique relationship/viewpoint of death compared to many other cultures. It all plays into the reactions people have and the decisions they make.

 

Two days before my mother died I talked to her on the phone.  I was in Germany and she was in the hospital.  She said that her lungs kept filling up with fluid and they would just keep aspirating it.  So the doctor said well they can just keep doing it.  As often as needed.  This was after all the failed attempts at everything.  My mother was just so so done.  Especially mentally.  The doctor acted like this was no big deal.  He was very good skill wise, but man it's like he had this total disconnect with what being a human being was all about. 

 

My mother said no.  She actually did not die from ovarian cancer exactly.  She died from a complication of the last treatment they tried.

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I heard an oncologist on NPR state that chemotherapy has an amazingly small success rate (less than 5%), but people want the illusion of doing something to fight the cancer. Makes me wonder how it is legally offered as a treatment, or why insurance is willing to pay for it.

 

Otoh, scientifically conducted studies are showing that mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy is most effective against anxiety, attention deficit, and PTSD.

 

When I see stats like this, I have to ask what do they mean. How does the doctor define success? Complete cure? Five years life? One year? Six months? At what stage is chemotherapy administered? What type of cancer is it? What type of chemotherapy was used? How old is the patient? How is the patient's health?

 

Cancer, patients, and treatment are all different. To take the blanket statement given and apply it to everyone is unscientific and unhelpful. 

 
Getting an extra five years might be worth it for some people. I know, depending on the stage, type, and cancer, if I was diagnosed I would try to extend my life five years so my young children will remember me and I will have just a few more precious moments with them. To write off those five years because it won't cure me permanently is inhumane.

 

Some forms of cancer are not curable, but with treatment, manageable. Patients are monitored and undergo chemotherapy at regular intervals, but will never be completely "cured". So chemotherapy wasn't a "success" but the people can live long healthy lives regardless.

 

Plus, many cancer treatments don't rely on just chemotherapy. Surgery and radiation are also used. Alone, each of the treatments may not treat the cancer, but used in combination, can extend people's lives. So chemotherapy alone isn't successful, but still a valuable tool in patient treatment.

 

In later stages of cancer, there does need to be real, in-depth conversations about the likelihood of success and the suffering that comes from treatment.

Edited by ErinE
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In the 60s the 5 yr survival rate for childhood ALL type of leukaemia was <10%.

 

It's now > 90%

 

But sure, claim that chemo doesn't do anything and doctors don't know what they're doing.

 

SMH

 

I've also never not been given info by my Drs, including them saying "we don't know", "this is our best recommendation but we could be wrong" and "you have these choices". They also gave info about risks of treatment.

 

Currently most organizations have what are called evidenced based diagnosis and treatment clinical guidelines. They make recommendations and indicate how strong the evidence is, and how strong the recommendation is (not the same thing). When I had my two biopsies come back suspicious, I was able to read through the diagnosis and treatment guidelines for my situation and see exactly why my physicians were recommending a certain course of action.

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I have never heard the term "allopathic" until this thread, so I googled it. It is basically a derisive term, yes?

 

"Although medicine never accepted the label of allopathy, nonmedical practitioners such as chiropractors, homeopaths, and naturopaths regularly misrepresent physicians as 'allopaths.' This is usually done in order to make differences between their practice guilds appear based upon conflicting philosophies rather than ideology versus science."  (from page 1 of googling it)

 

I've never heard it used in a derisive way, unless that just happened to be the viewpoint of the person who is using it.  But only ever in situations where it is being contrasted to other approaches, - so in that sense it does contrast with alternative approaches.  You could equally say "conventional medicine".    I tend to think of "allopathic" and "alternative" as somewhat similar as both are the words used by the other group to describe them.

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My dad would be dead if he hadn't chosen to go with chemo for his pancreatic cancer.  He was diagnosed with the "good kind" of pancreatic cancer in June of last year (in the head so it blocked the bile duct which caused him to get sick; usually pancreatic cancer is discovered too late because it causes no symptoms).  Pancreatic cancer kills relatively quickly, probably because it is diagnosed so late usually, so almost a year and a half later he'd be gone.  It was stage 2B since the tumor was wrapped partially around a blood vessel feeding the liver.  This also meant it was not operable.

 

My dad opted to have chemo to try to shrink the tumor in the hopes he could have the Whipple procedure to remove the tumor and various organs.  That worked, he was able to have the surgery in September of last year.  Then he had to have more rounds of chemo since it was unknown if cells escaped because of the proximity to that blood vessel.  He finished chemo in February.  He has no sign of cancer at this point.

 

His odds were very, very bad.  Of the previous 20 patients the doctor had with pancreatic cancer (he is, btw, one of the top 5 pancreatic cancer doctors in the nation and does several Whipple procedures a month) who needed chemo before attempting the Whipple, my father was the only one who was still a candidate for the Whipple after the chemo.  Only around 10% of pancreatic cancers are in the area where the Whipple is even a possibility.  My dad had age (70) and health (very good; he had prostate cancer in 2008, but that was easily removed with surgery and no other treatment necessary and his only other significant health issue is mild high blood pressure).  His odds without chemo were 0.  He would die within 6-12 months.  No natural treatment would stop the progression of that cancer.  It was fast growing.  The doctor figured the tumor was only 4 or 5 months old when he was diagnosed.

 

Now, because chemo for pancreatic cancer just extends life a few months (and the chemo is NASTY - made him so incredibly sick) had there been no chance for surgical success he wouldn't have done the chemo.  If the Whipple had not been successful, he would not have done the follow-up chemo.  I would have supported that decision 100%.  Quality of life matters.  But when there is an actual chance of remission, I don't understand doing nothing.  My mom had a good friend who was afraid of doctors and medicine.  She treated her breast cancer with vitamins and stuff.  She likely would be alive today if she had just gone to the doctor.

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In the 60s the 5 yr survival rate for childhood ALL type of leukaemia was <10%.

 

It's now > 90%

 

At the school where I work, we've had several kids who have beaten leukemia and go on living normal lives - including college/jobs, etc.

 

They've made great strides with that one and rejecting treatment would be foolish IMO - akin to rejecting treatment for that broken leg in the car accident...

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I don't get them either. Dh's sister is totally on the woo train full time.

 

Last week FIL was in a car accident (he's okay) and we went to check on him.. Dh took him to go see his car and to pick up a rental. I waited at the house and SIL was there. I kid you not:

 

-First she pulled out a notebook where she said she wrote notes from her last psychic reading. She was lamenting the fact that she can't read her shorthand and she wished she had recorded it instead.

 

-Then she took a salt lamp (see why I quoted you?) out of her bag that she said she bought for FIL at the psychic fair, and set it up on his windowsill. She said "they really work". I refused to bite and didn't ask her what they supposedly do.

 

-Finally, she picked up her craft bin of beads -not just any beads apparently - magical beads. She said she was making chakra wind chimes for her grandson.

 

I like her, she's kind-hearted. But I started a totally unrelated subject about another family member's coming baby because I just couldn't let myself get into the woo anti-woo discussion. I told dh on the way home and he just shook his head. There's nothing you can say to her to get her to see reality.

 

I think maybe the salt lights are supposed to put out good ions, or something like that.

 

There used to be a spa where I lived that was always advertising the healing benefits of its "infra-red sauna".  Half an hour in there was supposed to alleviate all kinds of symptoms, and you could pay $60 for the privilege.

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My dad would be dead if he hadn't chosen to go with chemo for his pancreatic cancer.  He was diagnosed with the "good kind" of pancreatic cancer in June of last year (in the head so it blocked the bile duct which caused him to get sick; usually pancreatic cancer is discovered too late because it causes no symptoms).  Pancreatic cancer kills relatively quickly, probably because it is diagnosed so late usually, so almost a year and a half later he'd be gone.  It was stage 2B since the tumor was wrapped partially around a blood vessel feeding the liver.  This also meant it was not operable.

 

My dad opted to have chemo to try to shrink the tumor in the hopes he could have the Whipple procedure to remove the tumor and various organs.  That worked, he was able to have the surgery in September of last year.  Then he had to have more rounds of chemo since it was unknown if cells escaped because of the proximity to that blood vessel.  He finished chemo in February.  He has no sign of cancer at this point.

 

His odds were very, very bad.  Of the previous 20 patients the doctor had with pancreatic cancer (he is, btw, one of the top 5 pancreatic cancer doctors in the nation and does several Whipple procedures a month) who needed chemo before attempting the Whipple, my father was the only one who was still a candidate for the Whipple after the chemo.  Only around 10% of pancreatic cancers are in the area where the Whipple is even a possibility.  My dad had age (70) and health (very good; he had prostate cancer in 2008, but that was easily removed with surgery and no other treatment necessary and his only other significant health issue is mild high blood pressure).  His odds without chemo were 0.  He would die within 6-12 months.  No natural treatment would stop the progression of that cancer.  It was fast growing.  The doctor figured the tumor was only 4 or 5 months old when he was diagnosed.

 

Now, because chemo for pancreatic cancer just extends life a few months (and the chemo is NASTY - made him so incredibly sick) had there been no chance for surgical success he wouldn't have done the chemo.  If the Whipple had not been successful, he would not have done the follow-up chemo.  I would have supported that decision 100%.  Quality of life matters.  But when there is an actual chance of remission, I don't understand doing nothing.  My mom had a good friend who was afraid of doctors and medicine.  She treated her breast cancer with vitamins and stuff.  She likely would be alive today if she had just gone to the doctor.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for people who are afraid.  My grandfather left his throat cancer way too late to do anything, and I think it was a kind of not wanting to face it.  Kind of like not wanting to do a will.

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On the chemo people also need to realize that AML type things are much more easily treated with chemo than say ovarian cancer. Or types of pancreatic cancer. When I worked on pharma trials for pancreatic cancer the outcome was how many more months you lived. Not if you were cured. That is an outcome explicitly stated in a trial. The problem comes in post trial when doctors may not get that point across successfully to patients. Although some patients and their families have selective hearing on that too. The point of the drug development is to give people options. Not control their lives. The issues come in that in this country in particular, people want to have blind trust and expect doctor knows best, without having to do the heavy lifting of evaluating what they want their death to be. That puts a lot on the doctor and I think helps muddle things. I do think that is changing. Not to say there aren't surgeon-god-fix anything types who overpromise because they can't be troubled with dealing with a family honestly. But it's not black and white. Some people want to extend life and nothing more and that's what these drugs can do. I assure you- many people see quantity as the goal, not quality until it's too late.

My mom had chemo and surgery 15 years ago for breast cancer. She now has stage IV breast cancer and has been on chemo for the last year. We know it's not going to save her life, but it has shrunk the tumors in her liver that were making it impossible for her to eat. There have been some rough patches, but overall, she's had a good year and has been as active as she's always been, which is very active. She's looking forward to celebrating another Christmas and maybe she'll even get another one after that. I hope so!

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[q name=creekland" post="7316899" timestamp="1480517217]

 

This gets me wondering if anyone has tried any sort of alternative healing for basic broken bones and blood vessels or trauma damaged organs.... ;)

 

"Ma'am, we're going to call an ambulance - you can't walk/breathe/whatever."

 

"Um no, can you get m bottle of ______ instead? That will work." :lol:

 

I know several who have had motorcyle or atv accidents. The standard of care here at the ER is to send them home if it the xray shows simpe rib fractures and there are no immediate signs of internal bleeding plus the pupils dont indicate concussion. So, yes, they reach for a bottle of _____ after calling for a friend to drive them to urgent care. Who needs a 5k bill for an ambulance ride to an ER, a flashlight check, a chest xray, and an Rx for an otc nonnarcotic painkiller?

Edited by Heigh Ho

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Oh and what about "ionized water" and "ionic breeze"? I don't know anything about them but my nearly bankruot parents are paying $800 a month for his magic flax seed oil plus ionized water.

 

 

Sigh...

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