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I do not understand why people eschew modern medicine. JAWM


Kinsa

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It's very easy for me to just agree with you because I totally do. If alternative medicine worked we'd just call it medicine. If great-grandma's cure/remedy/poultice worked there would have been no need to improve on it.

 

Even where nature has provided us with medicinal plants, modern medicine has been able to standardize dosage and administration. 

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When I say germ theory, that is her term. She doesn't believ in germs.

 

 

Sigh.... So much for science at their house.

I know someone who believes the more germs you expose yourself to the better. Like the hygiene hypothesis but on steroids. Expose yourself to the pathogens enough and your immune system will be a-ok. Pesky hand washing and hygiene ruined it all. I do not visit this persons home.

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:grouphug: To all of you dealing with loved ones who are seriously ill AND having to put up with well meaning idiots.  :grouphug:

 

 

Because before allopathic medicine, people died of frigging everything.

 

Yep. It's why people were terrified over a simple cut on the finger or catching a "chill". 

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Yup! And I think that these people honestly believe there was a lot less physical suffering in the good ole dark ages than now.

 

I keep waiting for someone to revive the "medicine" of putting dung on open wounds. Seriously, I can imagine someone getting rich off that snake oil and pretty certain my sil would be one buying into it.

 

She literally does not believe in germ theory.

or bleeding . . . . .

dh loves the snl skit on theodoric of york - medieval barber.

modern medicine really is very young.

 

FWIW, I think people get into these things to some extent because they want to be in charge. It becomes a control issue -- "I make the decisions on my terms with my box of essential oils." 

 

If you go to a doctor, they're more in charge than you are in most cases. Good doctors will discuss approaches with respect and honor your choices. Unfortunately that can be tough to find.

 

And some things can't be fixed, period. But if you feel like you're in control with some approach you handle, it makes you feel better in the face of all contrary evidence.

 

I also often think about what it is that makes us trust medicine in the first place. Certainly it can help, but sometimes it doesn't. Accepting that can be very difficult. Some people don't "get" that allopathic medicine has limitations. They feel insulted if they can't be healed, and that drives them to alternative medicine that won't work either.

 

Or they assume that allopathic medicine will resolve the problem 100% of the time. Those in the medical field laugh at that, but sometimes people believe that doctors have all the answers.

 

DH had two surgeries in August and September at a national medical center. From our perspective, we got a measure of success. Not a cure, but a measure of improvement. That was what the doctor expected, and that's what we got. But we've had people all over us at church recommending other doctors and alternative therapies again. It's driving me bonkers. They do this over and over. We are HAPPY with the results and had reasonable expectations. But then, there are a lot of people at our church with control issues...

 

Anyway, just some musing. 

 

this can also apply to drs themselves.   I've a friend whose daughter needed both surgery followed by radiation (not cancer).  it was a difficult place to reach surgically, and the surgeons were very happy with how much they were able to get.  the radiologists ...  were complaining they didn't remove enough.

I know someone who believes the more germs you expose yourself to the better. Like the hygiene hypothesis but on steroids. Expose yourself to the pathogens enough and your immune system will be a-ok. Pesky hand washing and hygiene ruined it all. I do not visit this persons home.

 

2dd used to dive face-first, mouth wide open, into our 'sandbox'. she jokes this is why she doesn't have allergies.  however, were she the adult, she would also do what I did and run the kid into the bathroom to rinse out their mouth.  (while fruitlessly telling them to stop doing it.)

 

some of her favorite free reading was related to germ theory.  (she's a pharmacist)  

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Oh, the blue flashlight! I had forgotten about that one.

 

An acquaintance was determined that was the answer for DH and even offered to drive us there. But not pay for it -- LOL. Wonder why...

 

 

I don't even know what that was. 

 

He saw him at the car lot, my dad wasn't being seen by the crazy woo Dr. We kinda figured out he was crazy after a bit and stopped going.

 

He was giving me some sort of remedy for my horse allergy (hives, it's super bad) and I am not sure he wasn't giving me something homeopathic. :lol: I had a major reaction WHILE getting the medication and I spent a couple days in the infirmary after riding horses at camp.

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:grouphug: To all of you dealing with loved ones who are seriously ill AND having to put up with well meaning idiots.  :grouphug:

 

 

 

Yep. It's why people were terrified over a simple cut on the finger or catching a "chill". 

 

 

We had a gerbil that bit me on the finger and my finger swelled up. 

 

If not for modern medicine I could be dead from gerbil

 

How humiliating. 

 

I could be on that Horrible Histories segment. "Stupid deaths! Stupid deaths!"

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I know someone who believes the more germs you expose yourself to the better. Like the hygiene hypothesis but on steroids. Expose yourself to the pathogens enough and your immune system will be a-ok. Pesky hand washing and hygiene ruined it all. I do not visit this persons home.

 

 

I do think a little dirt is good for kids.

 

I am not cool at all with no handwashing but playing in the mud and having pets helps.

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ETA: I am not trying to disagree with the OP. I realize it may sound that way, but I was just trying to explain some ways that may lead people to alternative medicine to begin with. Then some of them get carried away and end up with reiki to treat infections or whatever. I was brainstorming why people explore this stuff to begin with.

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You end up with the woo when conventional medicine fails you. You have specialist after specialist telling you they don't know what is wrong with you but it's not them. Or that it is all on your head.

You want someone to listen to you.

To be honest, some of the woo has helped my husband. Periodically his doctor will wander a bit too far into the woo. Herbal supplements are fine. Blue light, not so much.

I think alternative therapies can help minimize the pain and suffering of chemo treatments but your doctor has to know what you are taking. They can interfere rather than help.

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Karen, I totally agree with you. This same thing happened with a friend's sister: she was diagnosed with a very treatable form of breast cancer, a very small tumor. Instead of having a lumpectomy to remove the tumor, she decided to leave it there and turned to all kinds of crazy diet, supplement, essential oil, meditation, rocks stuff. She passed away less than a year later, leaving behind three elementary-aged daughters. So sad!

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When I say germ theory, that is her term. She doesn't believ in germs.

 

 

Sigh.... So much for science at their house.

 

Lol, nor does she know what the word theory means.

 

It is actually called the germ theory of disease, cell theory, big bang theory, evolution theory, atomic theory, the theory of gravity, theory of plate tectonics, etc, etc.

 

I am guessing she thinks evil spirits cause earth quakes as well...cause plate tectonics are a theory.  Ask her if she pads her ceiling in case she goes flying up and hits it b/c gravity is 'only a theory'.

 

I live in woo central. I can't swing a cat (not that I would do such a thing) without hitting a reiki practitioner, or an alexander technique person, or someone who does rolfing or cranial sacral therapy etc.  I've met lots of people who have got some physical issues, such as muscle issues taken care of that way. To me it's all fancy massage and you pick what you like.

 

I flat out laughed at a person who told me that their allergies could be tested by a process where the practitioner has you make a fist and stick your arm out and they try to push it down. Then they have you hold whatever substance you might be allergic to in the other hand and try to shove your other arm down again. If it is easier to shove your arm down when you are holding the potential allergen, then you are allergic.  What the actual F&(&? It's called muscle testing?  I mean... I deal with a lot of that stuff but this was just too much.

 

DH has an aunt who is a lovely person. But she is also a... spiritual counselor? I don't know.  She sees auras, cleans auras and maybe talks to ghosts? I can't. I can't engage with her on that because I'm afraid I'll just blurt out "but that's not a real job" or ask her if the ghosts pay well.  She really is very kind and sweet, I do like her. But if auras are real and she can see them, I am in big trouble, because she knows I think she is full of crap.

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I don't know what salt lamps are about.

 

 

Also, there was this lady at this craft things who made these strange emf magic pyramid things out of...I dunno...resin and glitter? What is that about?

 

I know someone that does long distance reiki. What?

 

I just kind of nod my head and pretend I understand what they are talking about.

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Another thing is that so many conventional doctors are rushed and/or don't listen to their patients. I would guess that many people go to woo practitioners because they feel heard when they go (better bedside manner).

 

I think modern medicine has lots of holes in it when it comes to treating chronic diseases. Too much money is made in managing conditions with drugs rather than with diet and lifestyle changes. Also, doctors are generally ignorant of nutrition and therefore unable to determine when a patient might benefit from vitamins or other simple supplements and when they are a waste of money.

 

I have had the best results with functional medicine, looking for root causes. Functional medicine can have its fads, unfortunately, and sometimes pushes supplements the way doctors push drugs. But there is usually more focus on diet and lifestyle than regular doctors, as well as a focus on improving gut health and sleep. As far as I can tell, it generally leaves out homeopathy, radioactive rock necklaces (I have a friend doing this), and other wackier stuff.

 

If someone's Dr doesn't listen to them then they should go to a different Dr.

 

People are customers, they are not working for the Dr, the Dr is not doing them a favor. If the Dr doesn't listen go somewhere else.

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If you don't agree with a JAWM, its fine to keep scrolling instead of offering a dissenting viewpoint . Actually it's preferred. Or if that's not something you can handle, you can always start your own topic.

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I'm in that boat right now. If one more person today tells me that I'll kill dh because I'm thinking negatively, I'll scream. No, I'm being realistic. NOW is the time to talk about wills and disability, etc. Not when this cancer hits his brain. Yeah, this new trial might be just the thing! And wouldn't that be great! But, I need to make sure I can hang on to the ranch and get my last one through her undergrad. I would LOVE to get the news that the pills, treatments, etc. shrink the tumors and all that. But, realistically, that's unlikely. No, citrus peel oil is not going to do the trick. And neither is a chiropractor. I can already tell who is going to be there for us in the coming months. And who is not. 

 

:grouphug:

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We have a health food store a town over that makes a mint off of the muscle testing. She can diagnose all sorts of ailments that way. For $180 she'll shine a light on you and clear you of your allergies. Pets too. I kid you not. Our CSA pick up was there one year. I had to cancel it after that year. That place was nuts.

 

You know what terrifies me the most? The people going there and paying her for the light clearing and muscle testing? They vote. Think on that for a minute.

 

I can think of more concerning beliefs than muscle testing for allergies.

 

I do have a friend who tried it. She was desperate. She was having all these crazy environmental allergies and was sick. To be clear, she is also a serious scientist,  a good one. She is now physically much better, whatever it was did pass. And she is a little embarrassed. But she was sick and nothing was working and that made her vulnerable.

FWIW, most of her treatment at that weird allergy place seemed to be them telling her to stop working so hard. They would give her these relaxation exercises, along with a no gluten, no soy, no sugar, no dairy, no grains, only organic food etc diet. She was working too hard and she was burned out and stressed beyond what she could handle. We had all been telling her that she was going to crash and crash she did.  At least by paying the weird allergy people she felt like she had to listen to them. They did give her good advice, but it was the same advice everyone else was giving her for free.

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I think part of it is that conventional doctors seem to ignore the idea of diet being important for anything other than cholesterol or traditional food allergies. Between that and the pill pushing, it can be easy to see doctors as quacks, at least for chronic symptoms. So then when someone gets symptoms relief by changing their diet, it is easier to get sucked into ever more alternative treatments.

 

Another part is that supplement companies can't afford to run FDA approved studies on their products. Personally, when I read that warning that a product can't treat or cure anything, I ignore it. Vitamin C will treat scurvy, yet the FDA makes vitamin C manufacturers lie to the public and say it can't cure anything. The warning is useless because it is applied to useless products, products that have plausible mechanisms but haven't been tested enough in the US, and products that are indeed actual cures to certain conditions (ricketts, scurvy, preventing blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency, etc).

 

If you have scurvy they are going to give you vitamins. If you are vit A deficient they will give you vitamins. They aren't going to just be all, "Well dur I dunno maybe we should try some ExpensiveMalarkyâ„¢. Maybe that helps scurvy since they pay me."

 

If someone has scruvy then maybe the lack of the information at Vitamin shoppe isn't their first problem?

 

This is why we have things like the NIH to pay for studies involving vitamins.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2517958/

 

https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/10406/scurvy

 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=%22Scurvy%22

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:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  Sorry Kinsa.

 

FWIW, I know that sometimes "modern medicine" and the doctors that practice it are actually full of horse-hockey.  And there have been times when I have definitely known more than the doc I was talking to (which is a very frustrating and frightening place to be when the quality of your life hangs in the balance).

 

On the flip side, modern medicine can absolutely save a life that wouldn't be saved without it.  And it is hard to watch someone who could be saved picking a path you know won't help.  

 

I had cancer.  The cancer wasn't what nearly killed me.  It was the incompetent surgeon who caused me months of excruciating unnecessary pain, a massive staph infection that very nearly killed me, and he managed to butcher the right side of my body in the process.  His modern medicine I could seriously have done without.  

 

But it was also modern medicine and powerful antibiotics (and a different doctor) that saved my life after Buffoon Man had finished practicing "medicine" on me.  Without those antibiotics I would not have made it but a few more days tops.  And I am grateful.  If I had followed the recommendations to just rest up and give my body a chance to fix itself, I would have signed my own death warrant.  Even with antibiotics I almost didn't make it.  Without them, I wouldn't have.

 

I do understand alternative medicine and that there are a lot of "alternative" medicines that are not quackery.  They absolutely have a place in health care.  But modern medicine does, too.  The trick is finding what works for each individual and when to use what.  I wish doctors were more open to seeing the whole patient, and exploring the broader picture.  Chemo WITH mindfulness training.  Radiation WITH meditation.  etc.

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Okay. I read the link. Not for me! Will continue to fo catatonic when she talks about her practice so she doesn't tey to force herself on me. No eye contact no eye contact!

 

If your crazy lady was really good at reiki, she'd be able to do it without even touching!

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That is tragic.

 

I used to be a hippy, alternative medicine kind of gal. 

 

Until modern medicine literally saved my life. 

 

No, it isn't perfect. Yes, people can suffer from cancer treatments, and cure is not guaranteed. Yes, alternative medicine can have a place in cancer treatment as a complementary treatment - for example, there is some evidence that accupuncture helps with post-chemo nausea for some people.

 

But for goodness sake! At the very least, keep as open a mind to mainstream medicine as you do to the alternatives.

 

Yes. As someone who will always look to the least invasive, potential solution first, I would not call my naturopath if I broke my leg. I'd call an orthopedic surgeon. But I am happy to consult the naturopath for endocrine issues, etc.

 

I suppose nobody knows how things would have turned out for her had she gone the allopathic way. The whole thing is just heartbreaking.

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I live in woo central. I can't swing a cat (not that I would do such a thing) without hitting a reiki practitioner, or an alexander technique person, or someone who does rolfing or cranial sacral therapy etc.  I've met lots of people who have got some physical issues, such as muscle issues taken care of that way. To me it's all fancy massage and you pick what you like.

 

I think I'd like some cranial sacral therapy :) will it help when one of your sacroiliac joints is fused to your hipbone???...what is an alexander technique?

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My dad had aggressive prostate cancer and had surgery. It gave us ten years which was longer tha. We might have hoped for statistics-wise. Cancer coming back was always when, not if. I am incredibly thankful for radiation treatment and doctors and science because my dad is still alive and all three of my kids plus my sister's two kids know and get to spend time with their grandpa.

 

Add me to the "me too" list.

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I don't know what salt lamps are about.

 

 

Also, there was this lady at this craft things who made these strange emf magic pyramid things out of...I dunno...resin and glitter? What is that about?

 

I know someone that does long distance reiki. What?

 

I just kind of nod my head and pretend I understand what they are talking about.

 

they're kinda interesting.

My shiatsu therapist has a couple. I asked him what they're "supposed to do" -  he said he just liked the looks.

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WHat is a blue flashlight for?   I know of blue lightboxes for SAD.  I know my physician uses a regular light to shine on my face to check how clogged my sinuses are.  I know of light therapy for psoriasis and some other skin conditions.  But I am unclear as to blue flashlights.

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I'm sorry op, what a tragic situation. And sorry to the pps who have boneheaded people around them, making difficult times more painful.

 

There's a lot of this stuff in the homeschooling world unfortunately.

I was very well behaved when a homeopathy quack was telling me how 'like cures like' so if you burn yourself, apply the hottest water you can handle and voila- no scarring! Because, radiation can mutate cells and they use radiation to treat cancer so = truth.

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If someone's Dr doesn't listen to them then they should go to a different Dr.

 

People are customers, they are not working for the Dr, the Dr is not doing them a favor. If the Dr doesn't listen go somewhere else.

Ones ability to change doctors really depends on insurance. I consider myself lucky to have easily been able to change pediatric neurologists when highly recommended Dr. Know-it-all tell mom she's stupid almost shut down my dds liver. Most people bring have the ability to just make another appointment and get on a waiting list because they are a new patient. I had a similar experience with a pediatric gastroenterologist.

 

As long as consumers and practitioners, including allopaths, understand the limits of their specialty lots of complementary approaches can work with allopathic medicine.

 

It's very sad when something like the op happens and the patient doesn't fully evaluate. But after dealing with some awful highly trained MDs, I know how some people go down that path.

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I will say though that in some cases I think there is sometimes too much false promise in treatment.  My mother's cancer was very advanced and the chances of a real cure were pretty much zero.  Yet they pushed a lot of treatment on her.  After awhile she had enough and yet they offered more.  Of course I didn't want her to die, but I didn't think she was living either.  So basically she spent much of the last year of her life suffering from treatments.

 

I have thought a lot about this having watched several people I love die from cancer.  It seems to me that once they diagnose you, they put you on a hamster wheel of treatment without ever asking if it is what you want.  Without telling you options or how treatment will effect you.  My beloved sil was given 3-5 years, she went through the hamster wheel.  On her death bed at 3 years, she said that if she had known, she would have foregone all treatment in favor of a more quality life with the time she had left.  It has really stuck with me.

 

And I will never forget some acquaintance telling me about this "miracle water" that would cure her, I was so incredibly angry.  Well meaning people spouting insane "cures" from alkalizing the body to essential oils.  They may have there place but seriously, wth?

 

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I have thought a lot about this having watched several people I love die from cancer.  It seems to me that once they diagnose you, they put you on a hamster wheel of treatment without ever asking if it is what you want.  Without telling you options or how treatment will effect you.  My beloved sil was given 3-5 years, she went through the hamster wheel.  On her death bed at 3 years, she said that if she had known, she would have foregone all treatment in favor of a more quality life with the time she had left.  It has really stuck with me.

 

 

Yeah there was some discussion here not long ago about how important it is that I get tested for esophageal cancer because I have acid reflux.  It was considered reckless of me to reject the idea.  First of all that type of cancer is extremely rare.  Second, a diagnostic test is not a treatment.  And finally, the survival rate for such cancer is extremely low.  Not to mention the treatment is grueling and painful.  So other than being told how I'll die and within what estimated time frame, I see no point in rushing right out for that.  (Not to mention it really had nothing to do with what I was talking/asking about.) 

 

We really did have hope that the treatments would cure my mother.  They never told us otherwise.  The odds were 100% against my mother though.  It only prolonged her suffering.  At one point she was having some symptoms due to menopause and the doctor offered her hormones.  My mother said something like doesn't that possibly cause breast cancer.  He said oh well we can just cut your breasts off.  I kid you not.  It becomes all about the treatments and not what is fair and humane to the person going through it. 

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Yeah there was some discussion here not long ago about how important it is that I get tested for esophageal cancer because I have acid reflux.  It was considered reckless of me to reject the idea.  

 

Part of this though is that you have no idea what it is and testing could give you answers.  My mom has something - still awaiting biopsy results - and if it's benign (or in general, not a bad cancer) as they think it is at this point, they're thinking it's treatable and all will be well.

 

You could be putting up with "stuff" you don't have to be putting up with - all due to not wanting to have a simple test (that my mom has had twice now with no problems at all - it's an easy test).

 

Now for those of us who can't get them to check out causes... it's a totally different frustration.

 

As it is for those with answers who make their choices (hopefully informed choices).

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If they are in their 30s, I would wonder that cost is the real issue. Maybe she doesnt want to bankrupt the family to stall death for a few years.

 

What gets me is the politics of profits. Folic acid added to the food supply in US, Europe rejects and US does nothing to financially help the people whose health was impacted by that decision.

Our vitamin rda levels are set for just above survival, instead of thrive.

Who would view science any better than crystals after it became clear that its a game of Russian roulette, unless its a pandemic and there is some focus on a cure.

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If they are in their 30s, I would wonder that cost is the real issue. Maybe she doesnt want to bankrupt the family to stall death for a few years.

 

What gets me is the politics of profits. Folic acid added to the food supply in US, Europe rejects and US does nothing to financially help the people whose health was impacted by that decision.

Our vitamin rda levels are set for just above survival, instead of thrive.

Who would view science any better than crystals after it became clear that its a game of Russian roulette, unless its a pandemic and there is some focus on a cure.

 

You think science is all Russian roulette? Wow. 

 

I gotta stop posting here, this has becoming a triggering thread.

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Reiki from a distance??? Well beam me up Scottie!!! I dod not know that telepathic healing had been perfected.

 

If she is healing me from afar, she is doing a very poor job of it. My permanently injured, messed up ankle from the car crash isn't getting any better. Ds's crushed femur still has a titanium rod and six screws with arthritis setting in. She needs to heal my kid.

 

To be fair, when he was in so much pain and still trying to grow bone, taking gargantuan calcium pills that he hated, she made him organic butter oil which is high in D3 and a nice calcium powder concoction that he could mix with juice. It made supplementing so much better for him. She would come and massage his leg and stretch it before he was eligible for physical therapy just to help ease the hurt.

 

So she does care very much about people. It is the mystical weirdness land wild claims she makes that are hard to deal with.

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You think science is all Russian roulette? Wow.

 

I gotta stop posting here, this has becoming a triggering thread.

I think she worded it poorly. Medicine and the human body are much more complex than science can keep up with ... Yet. Especially when you get lobbyists involved. It becomes about profit for big business and government vs. what is actually best for the population of people the government is supposed to protect.

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You think science is all Russian roulette? Wow.

 

I gotta stop posting here, this has becoming a triggering thread.

I agree. 2nd time in two days you have misinterpreted my posts. If you need clarification, ask. Putting words in someones mouth while taking phrases out of context isnt helpful to a conversation..
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I think she worded it poorly. Medicine and the human body are much more complex than science can keep up with ... Yet. Especially when you get lobbyists involved. It becomes about profit for big business and government vs. what is actually best for the population of people the government is supposed to protect.

 

:iagree:  I'm VERY pro science (and very pro testing, etc), but once one starts to put profits in there and associate them with science, one has to be super wary on many different fronts.  Doing research is worth it.  (Did the _____ association run the tests that show _______ is beneficial?  Who's getting a cut out of it, etc.)

 

This is totally different than saying science is wrong (or testing, or traditional medical options).

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I think she worded it poorly. Medicine and the human body are much more complex than science can keep up with ... Yet. Especially when you get lobbyists involved. It becomes about profit for big business and government vs. what is actually best for the population of people the government is supposed to protect.

 

Yes it is shameful that the US allows profit to influence medicine. 

But do you really think the long distance reiki healers do it for free?  Please.  There is enormous money in preying on the sick who are scared of "science."

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