Help me understand motivation - how do you conduct math review?

[Shred Betty]

Do you stay near and advise them to fix mistakes as they happen in a review/test situation or let them do it fully independently and correct / go over it afterwards?

 

The point is to give them a chance to show what they know, right? And review topics....

 

I know from doing the lessons what she has been able to do before, so she is showing what she can still do on her own, without help/reminders/scaffolding?

 

In lessons sometimes I think I give hints, reminders, scaffold for her and I don't know if that's helping her or me being too helicoptery and hindering her.

 

My 8 yr old DD 1st yr of homeschooling is doing ok to well with SM 1A we are finishing the first semester review.

 

I've seen her make good progress with number sense and concepts lately. Today's review went terribly! Lots of errors. I was not at her elbow - part of me thinks immediate mistake catching in lessons is good but she should also get some experience with doing a "test" without assistance.

 

When I tried to ask what happened, she says she just wasn't in the mood. I thought she was trying, it sounded like she was trying, but it's well below her usual ability

 

I'm not really sure how to handle this, just start over from scratch on the review with a better attitude, and show her she has to decide to use her math mind & try? Or pull out the work she did, full of little errors she doesn't usually make and show her almost every problem has a mistake? Eek!

 

thanks!

Edited November 8, 2016 by Shred Betty

[CadenceSophia]

My 8 year old extrovert won't do a single thing without me by his side with only a few exceptions. He'd never ever do a Singapore mid year review by himself and if he did it would be full of errors. In fact we don't ever do them in one day because it is so boring to do pages of stuff you know how to do. To an extent, the easier the problem the less willing he is to do it on his own. Left even slightly ignored, he dawdles, stares off into space, starts taking about something that he did in Minecraft the other day. I know he knows his stuff because I sit there and say "hey you have been on this problem for over a minute and I know it is easy." And he'll say "ok fine" and I'll have my answer on paper in under 5 seconds. He just doesn't find arithmetic fun. Can you really blame him? :)

 

Even when he does like the work, careful and accurate are not words I would use to describe his efforts. Those are skills needed for higher math, specifically by algebra, but also things to work on as he matures. I wouldn't dream of holding him back in math because of that, just like I didn't hold him back in K and 1st because he couldn't write a single number. He could do it in his head and I scribed. Now he is just fine.

 

If you find yourself actually giving clues and breaking down problems, re-teaching continually there may be a issue. It is completely normal not to be able to leave a 8 year old alone though and come back to perfect work. I do point out errors as they happen because he doesn't have a personality that can deal with thinking he is finished only to have to redo work. It's usually only a nudge though, "uhm are you sure?" Or "that's weird I had no idea 123 - 57 was 76". I don't have to break down the problem and say "let's go back and see what you did wrong" almost ever, exception being new content that I suddenly realize he didn't understand.

 

Well that was more than I planned to write. Hope something in there was a little bit helpful.

[HomeAgain]

If it's a straight up review page, I don't help my kid.  He doesn't want it, anyway.  There are times he has made mistakes and I circle the problem, then ask him to look at it again.  If he still needs help we talk about it and I make a note to teach that material again over the next few weeks.

 

But just because I don't help my kid doesn't mean I'm not in the same room with him.  I'll fold laundry or feed the baby or whatnot, right there, but not all up in the lesson.  I want him to rely on other aids first if he needs them (like the c-rods).

[Shred Betty]

My 8 year old extrovert won't do a single thing without me by his side with only a few exceptions. He'd never ever do a Singapore mid year review by himself and if he did it would be full of errors. In fact we don't ever do them in one day because it is so boring to do pages of stuff you know how to do. To an extent, the easier the problem the less willing he is to do it on his own. Left even slightly ignored, he dawdles, stares off into space, starts taking about something that he did in Minecraft the other day. I know he knows his stuff because I sit there and say "hey you have been on this problem for over a minute and I know it is easy." And he'll say "ok fine" and I'll have my answer on paper in under 5 seconds. He just doesn't find arithmetic fun. Can you really blame him? :)

 

Even when he does like the work, careful and accurate are not words I would use to describe his efforts. Those are skills needed for higher math, specifically by algebra, but also things to work on as he matures. I wouldn't dream of holding him back in math because of that, just like I didn't hold him back in K and 1st because he couldn't write a single number. He could do it in his head and I scribed. Now he is just fine.

 

If you find yourself actually giving clues and breaking down problems, re-teaching continually there may be a issue. It is completely normal not to be able to leave a 8 year old alone though and come back to perfect work. I do point out errors as they happen because he doesn't have a personality that can deal with thinking he is finished only to have to redo work. It's usually only a nudge though, "uhm are you sure?" Or "that's weird I had no idea 123 - 57 was 76". I don't have to break down the problem and say "let's go back and see what you did wrong" almost ever, exception being new content that I suddenly realize he didn't understand.

 

Well that was more than I planned to write. Hope something in there was a little bit helpful.

I'm brand new to homeschooling, yes it helps! Thanks :)

 

Yes, what I'm getting at Is what age level would the hive expect someone to be approaching the maturity to go from "I feel like I know this stuff, it's a little boring and I don't feel like doing it really so I won't apply myself/try" to "yeah i don't feel like doing this but I can apply myself anyway if I decide to so I have decided I want to turn my effort on and I will, because I know it's better in the long run than not trying," which personally I think if a valuable life skill I seek to cultivate daily - being able to decide to apply yourself to any task you resist doing for some reason. - that is.

 

We face it all the time, like daily usually, when it comes to doing homeschool lessons of all kinds in general. She loves school and says she wants to do school and I really see her flowering, but the morning of school has to go from "I don't really feel like it right now, I'd rather play and watch TV" to "ok, I know this is best so I'll make the best of it and do it well!"

 

Related to this, It's important to me that my DD 8 learn that taking shortcuts and being lazy just hurts her in the long run, kwim? So how do I tease out whether she's bein lazy and taking shortcuts, or whether she is trying just doesn't quite have the self control / maturity yet to turn her brain on at will?

 

CadenceSophia, your personality picture helps me understand my own expectations, thanks :)

In the bolded above, that sounds like us as well - both my DD's personality description of thinking she's finished then hating having to correct mistakes and my frequent hinting and little nudging to point out mistakes as we go.

 

I'm having a very hard time grasping whether when she needs more of something from me, or just more maturity and time to develop understanding within herself kwim? ***How do you know when Frequently needing to break down problems / hint / re teach becomes continually, when you're not sure to begin with whether a) they really get the concept yet??

And b) they have the maturity and will needed to meet your expectations?

[Shred Betty]

If it's a straight up review page, I don't help my kid. He doesn't want it, anyway. There are times he has made mistakes and I circle the problem, then ask him to look at it again. If he still needs help we talk about it and I make a note to teach that material again over the next few weeks.

 

But just because I don't help my kid doesn't mean I'm not in the same room with him. I'll fold laundry or feed the baby or whatnot, right there, but not all up in the lesson. I want him to rely on other aids first if he needs them (like the c-rods).

Ok, let's say you notice even though it seems in past lessons he has understood something he seems to be making lots of unexpected errors. Like he knows 8+8=16 and writes 8+7=16. With my DD she will get pretty peevish when she realizes she has to look at most of the problems again. But she obviously has to learn to double check and see if it makes sense before moving on.

So If you noticed errors happening a lot, would you let him finish the review without interrupting, then circle 10 wrong questions and have him look at them all again or would you involve yourself somehow, if so how, or would you just say time to put math away for today and chalk it up to a bad day and try again tomorrow?

 

For expectations / maturity it helps me to know, how old is your son if you don't mind? Thx,

Edited November 8, 2016 by Shred Betty

[HomeAgain]

Ok, let's say you notice even though it seems in past lessons he has understood something he seems to be making lots of unexpected errors. Like he knows 8+8=16 and writes 8+7=16. With my DD she will get pretty peevish when she realizes she has to look at most of the problems again. But she obviously has to learn to double check and see if it makes sense before moving on.

So If you noticed errors happening a lot, would you let him finish the review without interrupting, then circle 10 wrong questions and have him look at them all again or would you involve yourself somehow, if so how, or would you just say time to put math away for today and chalk it up to a bad day and try again tomorrow?

 

If I noticed them happening a lot, I would not correct/give the page back.  I already know the child does not have it down, and it would be a pointless exercise to make him/her look at it again.  It would be a cue for me to step back, review, and then tackle it again.  However, if it really was careless errors (and I *knew* a kid had it), I'd ask them to check their own paper using c-rods or other manipulatives.  And I'd do it the following day, not the same.  I want fresh eyes looking at the paper.

 

My kid had addition down pat until he started multiplication.  His speed slowed down and he started making careless errors (like multiplying 3 and 2 instead of adding them).  Great that he has new material he's grasping, but he needs his brain boosted on the old stuff. Every morning now we play Addition War and read a chapter in LoF.  Easy, he likes it, and it gives him the review he needs without taking over the day.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, there is review and then there are tests.  Not the same thing IMO.  I didn't do any testing at that age.  So I would have been nearby to help, answer questions, etc.  If I noticed struggle with a topic, which working close with someone everyday you do notice, then we'd work on it more.

 

 

[fralala]

One thing I've found helpful is to think about why I'm doing the review.

 

If the point is to make sure my child understands/remembers the concepts, then I think I have the freedom to act like a homeschooler and not like a teacher whose duty is to make sure none in her classroom fall behind. Maybe we don't have to do the whole review page if it's clear to both of us that the concept has been mastered. Maybe we can get the review done in a different way-- through games or activities or discussion.

 

If it's because I want my child to get more practice with a specific concept-- well, again, if I want to preserve her relationship with math, maybe it's worth it to get the practice with games instead, either together or on the computer.

 

If it's because I'm anxious that my homeschooled child might struggle one day to fill in test bubbles or complete exams When They Really Matter, then I just tell her up-front that this particular worksheet is a Test of what she knows so far and that for this particular worksheet I would like her to work carefully, clearly, and check over. I share with her that this, for me, is a LOT harder than even working through a challenging problem...the biggest struggle for me, during school, was not messing up all the things that came too easy because I rushed through them and handed them in without checking them over. (Still a problem, going by the number of posts I have to edit after posting.)

 

It's harder for me to teach patience with tasks that might not be the most interesting, because I still lack that particular skill myself. I have a terrible attitude about them. But I scaffold not by standing and hovering, but by adding after every question on the worksheet: "I'm sure" or "I'm not sure" and asking my child to circle one. At the end, I ask her to rate the worksheet or test from challenging to easy on a scale of 1 to 5. These things seem to slow her down and remind her to think about her answers, and to think about her own mastery of the topic.

 

(And yes, I have had those days when I end up frustrated, asking too loudly, "You think I LIKE everything I do? Sometimes I'm not in the MOOD to do laundry, or cook lunch, or clean the bathroom..." Yeah, I'm not always the best model of enduring tasks one regards as drudgery, which I think this response often is. Frustration and confusion look different, for us.)

[jgrabuskie]

My DS8 is doing Saxon Math Intermediate 3 this year. I sit with him through the whole lesson. He completes the powerup (a power up is a quick review of critical math skills and completed each lesson) with minimal involvement from me. I teach the lesson using our whiteboard. We do the lesson exercises together, me first modeling, then the remainder him wading through them. The spiraled written work, he is required to do on his own. But he is not alone bc for all the reasons that have been mentioned above.

 

For questions he gets right, we do knuckles or say WOOHOO. If I see a problem, I says oops, maybe check this one out, if you need strategy help let me know. I don't circle or do anything else bc its sets his anxiety meter into overdrive, he is a perfectionist. 9/10 he made a simple mistake, occassionally he needs instruction. If he needs instruction and depending on how much instruction, I sometimes make up a similar problem or two for him to do during power up the next day. I like to handle all of this as routine and low key to build DS's confidence.

 

At test time (every 5 lessons), it is recommended that a score of 80% be achieved. The student has 3 tests to bring the score above 80%, if not, then remedial intervention is necessary. Remedial intervention is a complete reteaching of the concept or concepts missed. DS has scored 93% on each test but I still keep track of the question he missed and will add a like question to his power up during the following week. 

 

DS did have a few weeks where for some reason his math facts were off and he made a lot of mistakes, so I had him review his math facts with flashcards. DS has Dysgraphia so lots of writing is a nightmare which makes flashcards a perfect vehicle.

[SilverMoon]

My 8yo is very math intuitive and "ahead" (Singapore 4). She is more independent at 8 by her own choosing than all four of her older siblings were.

 

If I just handed her a review and walked away I would absolutely expect more mistakes than normal. Then it would take even more time to correct with her than it would have to help her in the first place. I treat reviews like I would any other lesson. I don't see what's so particularly special about them? I'm involved closely enough I could already tell you which concepts she'll ace and which she's more likely to falter on, but the extra practice is good for a kid. DD/8 and I would glance over the lesson together and I'd possibly ask her how she's feeling about some of the tougher concepts. She would most likely look at me over the top rim of her glasses with a stern "I got this" expression. We'd mutually understand this gesture and she'd find a place to work where we can see and hear each other. I'd occasionally glance over at her page to see how she's doing; I would not correct as she goes unless I notice something very askew. She wouldn't hesitate to discuss anything she doesn't "get" fairly quickly.

 

What to do now? We'd sit down together and fix that review problem by problem. I'd ask questions that guide her into finding what she did wrong by herself, and reteach/explain on the fly as needed.

 

When would I hand a child a math review and just walk away? This would completely depend on the kid and not an arbitrary age/grade. I would guess most are ready by 6th or so. My oldest wasn't until high school though.

Edited November 8, 2016 by SilverMoon

[CadenceSophia]

 

Yes, what I'm getting at Is what age level would the hive expect someone to be approaching the maturity to go from "I feel like I know this stuff, it's a little boring and I don't feel like doing it really so I won't apply myself/try" to "yeah i don't feel like doing this but I can apply myself anyway if I decide to so I have decided I want to turn my effort on and I will, because I know it's better in the long run than not trying," which personally I think if a valuable life skill I seek to cultivate daily - being able to decide to apply yourself to any task you resist doing for some reason. - that is.

 

We face it all the time, like daily usually, when it comes to doing homeschool lessons of all kinds in general. She loves school and says she wants to do school and I really see her flowering, but the morning of school has to go from "I don't really feel like it right now, I'd rather play and watch TV" to "ok, I know this is best so I'll make the best of it and do it well!"

 

...

 

***How do you know when Frequently needing to break down problems / hint / re teach becomes continually, when you're not sure to begin with whether a) they really get the concept yet??

And b) they have the maturity and will needed to meet your expectations?

My 8 year old is my oldest so on the "what age" question I can't really be sure. I think the poster who said between 6th and high school is probably right. We are very clearly not even close :) That said, my 6 year old does her Singapore 100% independently and gets angry when I actually need to teach something so they are all just different people.

 

For the rest of it, my feeling is that you are teaching and potentially seeing exactly the lesson you want to teach -- sometimes we just need to do things we don't like to do, at times where it never seems like the most fun possibility. She might express her lack of desire to come do school but she comes to the table right? She does the work? I still have mini tantrums in my head when I need to start house cleaning and planning dinner every day but I get the work done. Sometimes I even call my mom and complain about my housework while I am doing it. I can't expect an 8 year old might not have the same feelings. Maturity doesn't necessarily mean putting on the Pollyanna for every task. Routines make a huge difference in making a disagreeable task not seem like such an affront.

 

That said. I can and do make rules about what can be said about school and dinner. If you don't like dinner, you can say "this is not my favorite." That is all. With homeschooling I will listen a little more to see if there is a real curriculum/style mismatch but fits and protests get sent back to lay in bed until it passes. Bad attitudes rub off on everyone.

 

Singapore is pretty straight forward on where the new material lies, especially if you know the method or follow the HIG. If we advance a concept and the first two problems are wrong, I set aside the books and teach until I think he has got it. If any of the next few problems are wrong, we stop again for a longer time. I teach in another way and then write some of my own problems. Since Singapore is mastery based at its fundamental level, you really can't move on until the work is solid. There is no room for struggling with addition within 10 when you are working on addition within 20. My son's errors all tend to be him either trying to make a mental calculation that exceeded his working memory (he doesn't like to write and will attempt pretty much any mental gymnastics to avoid it), lazily not applying that working memory ("loosing" a 10), or misreading his own writing (the 0/6 issue).

[Tanikit]

Over this year (8-9 years) I have gradually moved away from my child. I jump in if she is writing messily though as I know there will be errors with messy handwriting as she is now working on more difficult problems. I think it is an individual child thing - my youngest often asks me to close my eyes as she writes an answer in - she far prefers being independent. The elder one does not want to have re-do work and yet likes the idea of a test to see how she is doing and often uses the reviews as tests, but wants me right there correcting as she goes while working problems that are not part of a review.

 

I teach though using more than one curriculum which gives my child the chance to take a break from one curriculum if we are struggling with it or if they are not enjoying it and still get the review in a different way through another curriculum. If there is a specific aspect that needs more work then I will work on it separately in a way that suits that particular child.

 

If you know what your child is capable of and then see issues that you were not expecting in independent work then maybe you need to hang around without helping and watch your child - is there day dreaming, did she maybe have a bad day, does she get distracted, is she anxious without you, is the handwriting an issue, is she rushing, is it just too much work at once (I never do a review in one day with either of my children), is it carelessness - you can address any issues you pick up then, but maybe let her do just one sum independently a day rather than an entire review and see if that helps.

[letsplaymath]

I remember when we started homeschooling, how easy it was to fall into the trap of trying to do "school at home." And how often that turned me into the textbook police, trying to enforce a sit-at-your-desk-and-fill-in-the-page compliance.

 

With experience, though, I realized that one of the best things about homeschooling is the freedom to not be schooly. Now some of my favorite memories are the times I spent on the couch with my daughter, doing her math lessons Buddy-style, all the way into high school. Don't be in a hurry to push your little ones (and 8yo is still quite young) into independent work.

[MeganW]

We use the Extra Practice book several months behind where we are in the textbook/workbook to keep review going.  So they might be on Unit 7 in the TB/WB, and Unit 4 in the EP book.  During breaks (like Christmas and summer), I have them go back through the textbook and re-do the Practices and Reviews, but they only do every other problem.  If they get them ALL right, they are done!  If they miss even one, they correct, and then go back and do the evens.  They are very motivated to get them all right the first time, of course, to avoid extra work!

[Lori D.]

...For expectations / maturity it helps me to know, how old is your son if you don't mind? Thx,

 

Depends on the child, but probably around age 12. And, it also depends on if the subject is a weak one or not of interest to the student, AND whether or not the student has any additional issues going on, which can delay that maturity and ability to stay focused and self-motivate.

 

DS#2 was very much like what CadenceSophia described. He also had mild LDs in writing, spelling, and math. He was about 14yo before he could manage to have some focus on math without me at his elbow -- and about that time we hit Algebra (abstract math, which is the area of math he most struggled with), so I still needed to be right there for much of the time. Once we made it to Geometry, and he was 15yo, he started to take off and managed math MUCH more independently for the rest of high school.

 

For writing, it was even later for things to "click", and I really had to be there at all the stages of writing up into his first year of college, when he finally "clicked". I will add that by about age 12, as long as we brainstormed and did the organizing of his thoughts together into a key-word outline or structure of some sort, he *could* take that outline/structure and write a complete paragraph from it on his own, and then we'd come back together, revise together, and then he'd take it and make corrections and changes according to our discussion, etc. But, we were doing longer writing one paragraph at a time until well into high school, so a 5-paragraph essay could sometimes take 2 weeks in 8th/9th grades. Along about 10th/11th grade he was more able to do longer writing before bringing it back for us to go over it for the next stage.

 

BEST of luck in figuring out where your student is in the scheme of things, and how to proceed. :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Lori D.