Dyscalculia with 12 year old-how to move forward

[sdobis]

I've been ignoring my daughter's math issues for too long, thinking that she just needed more review. I know that is not the case and don't know where to go from here. She has been diagnosed as dyslexic and has made great progress through intensive work.

 

First, here is her background:

Rod and Staff through third grade. Starting in third grade, I noticed a lack of progression/understanding. We stopped where we were and spent fourth grade on Semple Math. This seemed to help her understanding of numbers to some extent.

 

With what she had learned to this point, I felt comfortable moving her into Teaching Textbooks grade 5. I felt like she was on the right track. She did well in fifth and sixth until midway through the year. I worked more closely with her and realized that she didn't really know what she was doing and had done. I worked with her for the rest of the year, mostly on fractions because that's where she seemed stuck.

 

I decided to move away from Teaching Textbooks since it didn't seem to be helping. I changed to CLE because it is so spiral. She wasn't retained information, so I thought that would help. She tested into the fourth grade book.

 

So at this point, we are halfway through fourth grade in CLE. I'm seeing the same issue as always.

 

Here are her main problems:

Mixes up numbers 63 becomes 36. Mostly when reading the number.

Doesn't understand direction or the number line well.

Struggles with months, days, and clocks.

Took a long time memorizing facts and still forgets at times

Estimations are always way off during regular conversation. It took 2 days but she would say it took 15 days.

Memorized algorithms, but when she forgets them, it's like starting over.

Still asks me, "What is a fraction?" after working on them for a year.

Cannot tell me if a fraction is more or less than one, even with a picture.

Decimals are now difficult because she doesn't seem to grasp place value.

She just asked me today if you can subtract zero from zero.

 

So I'm at a loss at this point. I feel like there's no catching up. I feel like I've failed in this area. How should I move on from here?

[Heathermomster]

Maybe take a look at Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number and How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.

With my own child, we have used manipulatives and drew pictures for understanding. James Tanton is an interesting maths educator, and I have used his resources in the past. Both Tanton and Bird are very helpful and have given me resources when I have emailed them directly with questions.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Code Lyoko]

Maybe take a look at Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number and How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.

 

With my own child, we have used manipulatives and drawn pictures for understanding. James Tanton is an interesting maths educator, and I have used his resources in the past. Both Tanton and Bird are very helpful and have given me maths resources when I have emailed them directly with questions.

Agree with this.  You might also look into Dynamo Math.  British program for dyscalculics.  Also, you might look into CTC as a supplement to whatever you work on with her directly.  

 

It does sound like your daughter has dyscalculia.  Take a deep breath and accept that this may be a long road.  It is going to take a lot of time and trial and error to find ways to help her understand what she is doing.  She is probably missing basic subitization skills, the building block of most math concepts.  Most of us are born with basic subitization skills that just automatically increase over time.  Add in targeted math instruction and it is just something that happens.  We aren't even aware that the skill is there.  For a dyscalculic that basic level is not there.  It has to be systematically taught and may take years to really get down.  And some things may never really click.  This does not mean your child cannot function well as an adult or she is doomed to never graduate High School or go on to college if that is her desire.  It just means you both need to be prepared for this to take a lot of time and effort and in the long run she may need external support systems for some things.  She may not even have a true sense of the passage of time.  That means relying on external support systems to get anywhere on time.  But she lives in an age where technology is here to help.  :)

 

FWIW, my daughter is dyscalculic.  There are some things that didn't seem as if they would ever click.  Slowly, over time, many things that never clicked before are starting to make sense to her but she will almost certainly never be fast at math.  One thing I had to stop pushing over and over and over was memorization of math facts.  Instead, I had to help her see the patterns and be able to find the answers using other means.  Rote memorization never gave her brain anything to hang on to.  I also had to be willing to think outside the box and approach things from different perspectives.

 

One thing that helped was having DD learn skip counting.  Then I would have her write out a multiplication grid at the beginning of each week using skip counting.  We would talk about the patterns.  Over time some patterns stuck.  Also, she got faster at skip counting.  And as we were doing this she was learning more about number relations.  That helped a lot.  We also used the CLE flash cards to work on specific, targeted math facts and then flipped the cards and did the division side.  Using manipulatives to work on the relationship between those two concepts helped a lot, too.  She reached a point where now she may not have all of her multiplication/division tables memorized but she can figure out the answer based on skip counting, patterns, and understanding number relationships.

 

Another thing was accepting that long multiplication was a nightmare for her and if something isn't working at all, it may be better to find another way.  I had to look for other options for approaching long multiplication.  Lattice method, while confusing to me, actually made WAAAAAAAY more sense to her.  She can now multiply very huge numbers very quickly and understand what she is doing.

 

None of that will help, though, until you deal with helping her shore up the most basic building blocks of math.  That may mean going way, way, way back before she can go forward again.  Once those basic building blocks are shored up, though, she should be able to move at a faster pace for most things.

 

Finally, don't beat yourself up.  You are asking the right questions, you are trying your best to help, and hopefully you are getting some useful answers.  Give yourself and your child a hug, take a deep breath, and start anew tomorrow.  Best wishes.

[sdobis]

Maybe take a look at Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number and How the Brain Learns Mathematics by David Sousa.

 

With my own child, we have used manipulatives and drawn pictures for understanding. James Tanton is an interesting maths educator, and I have used his resources in the past. Both Tanton and Bird are very helpful and have given me maths resources when I have emailed them directly with questions.

Thanks for this. I've heard such good things about Bird, but it always seemed too easy. I may need to change my thoughts on it.

 

I've never heard of Tanton. I'll look into that one as well.

[sdobis]

Agree with this. You might also look into Dynamo Math. British program for dyscalculics. Also, you might look into CTC as a supplement to whatever you work on with her directly.

 

It does sound like your daughter has dyscalculia. Take a deep breath and accept that this may be a long road. It is going to take a lot of time and trial and error to find ways to help her understand what she is doing. She is probably missing basic subitization skills, the building block of most math concepts. Most of us are born with basic subitization skills that just automatically increase over time. Add in targeted math instruction and it is just something that happens. We aren't even aware that the skill is there. For a dyscalculic that basic level is not there. It has to be systematically taught and may take years to really get down. And some things may never really click. This does not mean your child cannot function well as an adult or she is doomed to never graduate High School or go on to college if that is her desire. It just means you both need to be prepared for this to take a lot of time and effort and in the long run she may need external support systems for some things. She may not even have a true sense of the passage of time. That means relying on external support systems to get anywhere on time. But she lives in an age where technology is here to help. :)

 

FWIW, my daughter is dyscalculic. There are some things that didn't seem as if they would ever click. Slowly, over time, many things that never clicked before are starting to make sense to her but she will almost certainly never be fast at math. One thing I had to stop pushing over and over and over was memorization of math facts. Instead, I had to help her see the patterns and be able to find the answers using other means. Rote memorization never gave her brain anything to hang on to. I also had to be willing to think outside the box and approach things from different perspectives.

 

One thing that helped was having DD learn skip counting. Then I would have her write out a multiplication grid at the beginning of each week using skip counting. We would talk about the patterns. Over time some patterns stuck. Also, she got faster at skip counting. And as we were doing this she was learning more about number relations. That helped a lot. We also used the CLE flash cards to work on specific, targeted math facts and then flipped the cards and did the division side. Using manipulatives to work on the relationship between those two concepts helped a lot, too. She reached a point where now she may not have all of her multiplication/division tables memorized but she can figure out the answer based on skip counting, patterns, and understanding number relationships.

 

Another thing was accepting that long multiplication was a nightmare for her and if something isn't working at all, it may be better to find another way. I had to look for other options for approaching long multiplication. Lattice method, while confusing to me, actually made WAAAAAAAY more sense to her. She can now multiply very huge numbers very quickly and understand what she is doing.

 

None of that will help, though, until you deal with helping her shore up the most basic building blocks of math. That may mean going way, way, way back before she can go forward again. Once those basic building blocks are shored up, though, she should be able to move at a faster pace for most things.

 

Finally, don't beat yourself up. You are asking the right questions, you are trying your best to help, and hopefully you are getting some useful answers. Give yourself and your child a hug, take a deep breath, and start anew tomorrow. Best wishes.

What is CTC? I've never heard of subitization before. Will most dyscalculia programs work on that? I'm not sure I totally understand it.

 

Thanks for the pep talk. I try not to get too discouraged. We're finally making headway with her dyslexia, so it's frustrating to acknowledge another area that we need too work on. Here we go!

[Code Lyoko]

What is CTC? I've never heard of subitization before. Will most dyscalculia programs work on that? I'm not sure I totally understand it.

 

Thanks for the pep talk. I try not to get too discouraged. We're finally making headway with her dyslexia, so it's frustrating to acknowledge another area that we need too work on. Here we go!

Yes a solid program designed to help dyscalculics will work on subitization.

 

CTC math:

https://www.ctcmath.com/

 

but you can usually order it through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op for less. 

 

I would not use CTC as the primary math program with a dyscalculic but it is very helpful as a supplement since it gives a student access to all math from elementary through High School and is organized in the same way for each grade level.  Makes it easy to hop up and down levels solidifying weak areas and going into more advanced math in a particular type of math where needed.  In other words, it is easy to customize.  For instance, maybe your child struggles with measurement.  She can start all the way back at the Kinder level and just keep hopping forward as she solidifies any gaps in that area.  My daughter is really good at geometry but pretty weak in other areas.  She loves that once she has mastered a particular thing in geometry she can just keep going into the next level of geometry while she shores up other areas that are not as strong.  I hope that makes sense.

[wapiti]

Here are her main problems:

Mixes up numbers 63 becomes 36. Mostly when reading the number.

Doesn't understand direction or the number line well.

 

Just on these two alone, has she ever been checked by a COVD optometrist for developmental vision issues or had an OT eval?

 

ETA, and this is probably not the right post from geodob, but might be food for thought:  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/561975-math-disability/?p=6543046

 

Her writing numbers in reverse, but not letters is interesting?

What this raises, is a question about the way that she concieves of math?

Particularly the direction?

Our mental concept of what is called the 'number line'.

Is actually concieved of from left to right.

So that 1,2,3,4,etc, are concieved from left to right.

We add to the right, and subtract to the left.

Our concepts of past and future, are also located on the left and right.

 

But for some people, they concieve of it in the opposite direction, from right to left.

So perhaps you could try something?

Have her do some written math.

But have her intentionally write the numbers in reverse.

But also importantly, have her write the order in reverse. So that 27 becomes 72.

'Tens' are then on the right, rather than the left.

 

Where it would be interesting to see whether doing a written math calculation, totally in reverse?

Comes naturally to her?

 

(completely off topic, but my mental number line is vertical and slanty lol)

Edited November 8, 2016 by wapiti

[sdobis]

Just on these two alone, has she ever been checked by a COVD optometrist for developmental vision issues or had an OT eval?

 

ETA, and this is probably not the right post from geodob, but might be food for thought: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/561975-math-disability/?p=6543046

 

 

(completely off topic, but my mental number line is vertical and slanty lol)

She was tested when we were looking into her dyslexia. There were no developmental vision issues.

 

I agree that the left right order may not work for many people. This may not be related, but she prefers her manga books written right to left.

Edited November 8, 2016 by sdobis

[wapiti]

I agree that the left right order may not work for many people. This may not be related, but she prefers her manga books written right to left. 

 

What I was thinking is that this seems like a potentially fixable issue via OT or other therapy.

[lailasmum]

My eldest is 12 and dyscalculic. I would say try Ronit Bird and Meister Cody (computer based). Meister Cody is meant for younger kids but has still been really valuable. I have accepted that she'll probably only get so far with some maths skills. Having said that my brother struggled in the same way and many things clicked late, around 19 or 20.

[Heathermomster]

What I was thinking is that this seems like a potentially fixable issue via OT or other therapy.

Maybe take your child for an OT assessment or Ped PT who specializes in motor development not just knee rehab...You want someone who can do an hour long assessment, evaluating static/dynamic balance, developmental motor, perceptual reasoning, and motor planning. My DS worked with both an OT and ped PT at different times. The ped PT work helped a bunch with bilateral coordination, left side weakness, balance, and posture using weights, bands, and performing cross body exercises.

 

The RB book provides subitizing activities to practice with your student. The latter half of the book teaches alternative methods for the basic math functions. We use Tanton methodology for Algebra. I purchased one of his ebooks titled Thinking Mathematics, but you don't need anything like that right now.

 

I apply the methods that I leaned from RB and Tanton to any curriculum that we have. Fractions solidified for DS during algebra. DS used a TI-15 calculator when he was 12yo and a multiplication chart.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

Lyoko, what's CTC?

 

Ha, just saw you already linked it!  :)

Edited November 8, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I always think people die a thousand deaths when they read I'm using (gasp) the TCR daily warm-ups materials with ds.  I'll just observe that they're a lot like what I'm seeing of CTC in the samples, with some advantages.

 

-b&w presentation, so less distracting

-consistent layout, lowering anxiety, making the format consistent so they know what's coming

-font size consistent, with space to read.  The graphics on CTC look tight together.  My 3SLD ds would be overwhelmed by what I'm seeing there, even though it's almost identical (in approach) to the print pages we use.

-multiple choice, allowing you to circle answers, without the distraction of a mouse

 

Lyoko is saying she can choose topics and go up/down levels.  The DWU books are set up to make that possible too. There are 5 units and the tasks are numbered only within the units.  So you could, conceivably, work multiple levels, doing geometry or graphing from one level, numeracy from another, etc.

 

Whatever.  I just thought that was interesting.  I REALLY like the Daily Warm-up pages for math and LA from Teacher Created Resources.  They're cheap (except for the cost of printing) and give us a slow, methodical push that never feels like too much.  It gives him exposure to the language of math and context to practice fledgling skills.  For instance, yesterday they had them doing some witty two-digit addition/subtraction (find the missing number if...) and we were able to do that in our heads, on paper, AND with the abacus, something I had been wanting to do.  It's so easy to do that, to harness the pages.  And I don't have that connection cut. But like I said, it's just a rabbit trail.  I thought it was interesting how similar they were.

[sdobis]

A few more questions. Should I continue with CLE while working with other programs dealing directly with the dyscalculia? Like if she was working on Ronit Bird methods and CTC or Dynamo or whatever. Maybe work through a page of CLE as well? I love how almost over spiral the books are. I know it's not helping with the basic issues that she's dealing with, but it does help with the memory aspect.

 

Also, I heard that RB helps with adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing. What works well for more pre-algebra skills? She has her facts memorized and can do most of those problems. Can I use the skills taught in her book to work on more difficult problems? Basically, she doesn't need to do 9x7. She may need to work on 845x54.

 

Basically, I want to help with her understanding without losing the progress that we've made.

[sdobis]

Also she doesn't like it when I tell her how to solve a problem. It's like I'm too wordy. She sushes me all the time because she is thinking and I'm interrupting. She hates manipulatives, but we might have to bite the bullet on that one and use some. She has a hard time reading directions due to her dyslexia, so reading explanations usually doesn't work. She's very visual, so I'm not sure the best way to teach her concepts. Does anyone have a kid like this?

[Hilltopmom]

We are where you're at as well.

It's tough.

 

We've just moved to all calculator use. She can't remember the steps for or understand the " why" behind anything, so 845x54 as a calculator problem is more likely to be correct & move on.

Could not memorize math facts.

 

I've decided to focus on life skills math & consumer math ( someone pointed out yesterday that our kids may just wind up using tech for these issues as adults, great point, smart phones can already do a lot).

I'd like her time & money skills improved before adulthood, for sure.

 

But, we also aren't looking for a high school diploma or GED, so although I'd love to get her through pre algebra & algebra, I'm trying to accept its not gonna happen. (But we're dealing with borderline IQ as well, not just dyscalculia)