MFW CTG and TOG Ancients

[jer2911mom]

Hi,

 

Can anyone who has used both compare the two?  This would be for 7th and 4th graders next year.  We are using MFW 1850-Mod this year (first year with MFW).  We've never used TOG.

 

Thanks,

Kathy

[Slache]

Bump.

[5sons]

I have used both. TOG for 7th and younger, and MFW CTG for 6th and younger..

TOG is super FULL. I had trouble picking and choosing. I overwhelmed my 7th grader. Just too much reading (which he loves) but we ended up not having as much time for math and science as we wanted. History and literature are wonderful, and writing, and worksheets were great, but just too much. This was probably my own fault looking back.

 

MFW if used to its potential (including book basket and I pick my own lit selections) was much better fit. We had more time to enjoy math and science. I just have to stay on top of the olders getting there notebooking pages done to there potential. But we have time for it so that's what works for us. I like getting an overview of history with a timeline rather than in depth. TOG can be so in depth at times I felt we were loosing the flow of history. I think high school is a much better place for more in depth. But even then we keep the big picture and pick and choose depth.

 

I also have a large family and it's much easier for me to include littles with MFW without so much extra work for me. I teach to the olders and let youngers tag along. They feel much more included.

 

Just my perspective. Hope it helps :)

 

Kristen

[jer2911mom]

I have used both. TOG for 7th and younger, and MFW CTG for 6th and younger..

TOG is super FULL. I had trouble picking and choosing. I overwhelmed my 7th grader. Just too much reading (which he loves) but we ended up not having as much time for math and science as we wanted. History and literature are wonderful, and writing, and worksheets were great, but just too much. This was probably my own fault looking back.

 

MFW if used to its potential (including book basket and I pick my own lit selections) was much better fit. We had more time to enjoy math and science. I just have to stay on top of the olders getting there notebooking pages done to there potential. But we have time for it so that's what works for us. I like getting an overview of history with a timeline rather than in depth. TOG can be so in depth at times I felt we were loosing the flow of history. I think high school is a much better place for more in depth. But even then we keep the big picture and pick and choose depth.

 

I also have a large family and it's much easier for me to include littles with MFW without so much extra work for me. I teach to the olders and let youngers tag along. They feel much more included.

 

Just my perspective. Hope it helps :)

 

Kristen

 

Thanks, Kristen!  That is my fear, that TOG will be too full, especially with starting Apologia science and pre-algebra next year.  We are using MFW this year and it does feel more balanced than anything we've used (SL, HOD).  Since we are doing 1850-Mod, we have the SOTW AG questions and outlining.  I realized that in the other years, we won't have discussion questions.  I am used to those with SL and am concerned about losing those.  But at the same time, I don't want to end up history and lit-heavy again just to have the discussion questions.  The TOG dialectic questions look daunting and the rhetoric questions look insane to me -- so.many.pages.  On the other hand, I like that the lit pages cover the literary terms and that the writing assignments apply to the history.  We are already pulling in some of the SL LA assignments to MFW to have writing across the lit and history.  I guess with the notebooking in the other MFW levels, we'd have some writing there.  We'd be moving into the PP guides in MFW, and I'd likely continue to pull in SL readers like we are doing this year.  Is there a way to keep the TOG workload manageable?  What would you recommend for doing that?

 

We are doing well with book basket this year.  I was dreading it, but I put my older dd in charge of putting books on hold and she loves that and is very responsible about it.  So that is actually getting done, and they love that part of our day.  I'm wondering if it would be best to keep the extra reading to book basket rather than more scheduled reading in TOG.  We have always been after the ever-elusive balance in our homeschool days, so I have to be careful in what I select.  But, I am adding in parts of SL and HOD this year to round things out, and I wonder if I wouldn't have to do that with TOG.  I add in SL readers for both girls, HOD Bigger history readings for my younger since MFW just has the workbook and state study for her age at this level, SL LA writing assignments, and some SL read-alouds.  We've also been finishing up Core D on the side to smooth the gap to this year of MFW.  I do really like that SL gives me the overview of the book and the discussion questions and vocabulary definitions.  But I like that my girls are enjoying doing parts of school together with MFW.  I know in TOG it wouldn't be as much together since one would be Dialectic and one would be Upper Grammar.  So there's that to consider, too.  They'll already be split off in science next year no matter what, though.

 

Can you compare the Bible component for MFW CTG and TOG Ancients?  Any other comparisons between those two levels would be appreciated!

 

Thanks!

Kathy

[5sons]

1. Since we are doing 1850-Mod, we have the SOTW AG questions and outlining. I realized that in the other years, we won't have discussion questions. I am used to those with SL and am concerned about losing those. But at the same time, I don't want to end up history and lit-heavy again just to have the discussion questions. The TOG dialectic questions look daunting and the rhetoric questions look insane to me -- so.many.pages.

 

 

2. Is there a way to keep the TOG workload manageable? What would you recommend for doing that?

 

 

3. But, I am adding in parts of SL and HOD this year to round things out, and I wonder if I wouldn't have to do that with TOG. I add in SL readers for both girls

 

 

4. But I like that my girls are enjoying doing parts of school together with MFW. I know in TOG it wouldn't be as much together since one would be Dialectic and one would be Upper Grammar. So there's that to consider, too. They'll already be split off in science next year no matter what, though.

 

4. Can you compare the Bible component for MFW CTG and TOG Ancients? Any other comparisons between those two levels would be appreciated!

 

 

Thanks!

Kathy

 

Hoping the quote thing works:

 

1. I was really excited about the discussion questions in TOG. And they were very good, but again just too much time to devote to history. I would have two in each level of TOG this year, and I honestly flat don't have the time. It would take 1-1 1/2 hour for each level (D and R) for questions once a week. Plus the littles have to have there books read to them. And then everyone has lit pages to do and it was actually hard to get a lit book that fit the reading levels of each specific child. I actually use HOD readers which we love. There is a level for each grade and this is much better. If one child excels at reading they can go faster than a slower reading child, and I always have the next lit book on hand when needed. They don't match up to the history, but I finally came to terms with the fact that the priority is for my kids to have quality lit on their level. I have been doing this for five years.

 

By the time mine got to high school we realized they wanted AP classes in several subjects which they self study for. So that is really what dominates. I still fit in some great lit, but it's quality not quantity. A big focus is writing which I pick and choose for different subjects throughout the year.

 

2. I think TOG is an excellent education in English and History (and Bible year 1). But by the time high school hits that's what your focus is. For my dc the focus has been math and science. They do take one English AP course and one History AP. So we kind of taylor it to what they want to do in college. That said TOG is totally doable! Just remember to pick and choose. If you have a heavy lit book that takes time feel free to take a break and read something light for the next book or skip. Same holds true for history. Also skip the discussion questions if you've had a tough week. Don't feel like you have to do every.single.lit page. I just always felt I was wasting so much. I would buy or checkout all the books and then only use half because I didn't know which one I would choose from week to week. If you have the time to look ahead and plan that would be key. I do not have that kind of time.

 

3. As I mentioned earlier I use HOD lit books and some SL to keep kids on their level. Also we have enjoyed the pp lit studies. It has been good. I also add in figuratively speaking workbook before they hit high school. Then we do Windows to the world the year before AP English.

 

4. We enjoyed TOG ancients but I started with (I think week 4?) Genesis and then went back to Egypt. Just could not stand not starting from the beginning 😆. The Bible was the best in this year as the upper levels used a lot of the actual Bible for history. Lower levels use different children's bible (wasn't particularly thrilled with any of these.) MFW uses streams of civilization which is great for us. Gets to the point, we liked the pictures, and it makes everything easy. There is also a focus on the feasts (there is in TOG too). It's just so much simpler with MFW to get all the levels combined *for me. My kids love doing the history and science and music together. This has really been a bonus that I was not expecting. I couldn't go to anything else as I would loose this fellowship with siblings.

 

 

I'm sure I didn't answer half your questions, but hope some of this helps. I'll read over it again later and see if I can add anything else. :)

 

Blessings,

Kristen

Edited November 6, 2016 by 5sons

[jer2911mom]

Hoping the quote thing works:

 

1. I was really excited about the discussion questions in TOG. And they were very good, but again just too much time to devote to history. I would have two in each level of TOG this year, and I honestly flat don't have the time. It would take 1-1 1/2 hour for each level (D and R) for questions once a week. Plus the littles have to have there books read to them. And then everyone has lit pages to do and it was actually hard to get a lit book that fit the reading levels of each specific child. I actually use HOD readers which we love. There is a level for each grade and this is much better. If one child excels at reading they can go faster than a slower reading child, and I always have the next lit book on hand when needed. They don't match up to the history, but I finally came to terms with the fact that the priority is for my kids to have quality lit on their level. I have been doing this for five years.

 

By the time mine got to high school we realized they wanted AP classes in several subjects which they self study for. So that is really what dominates. I still fit in some great lit, but it's quality not quantity. A big focus is writing which I pick and choose for different subjects throughout the year.

 

2. I think TOG is an excellent education in English and History (and Bible year 1). But by the time high school hits that's what your focus is. For my dc the focus has been math and science. They do take one English AP course and one History AP. So we kind of taylor it to what they want to do in college. That said TOG is totally doable! Just remember to pick and choose. If you have a heavy lit book that takes time feel free to take a break and read something light for the next book or skip. Same holds true for history. Also skip the discussion questions if you've had a tough week. Don't feel like you have to do every.single.lit page. I just always felt I was wasting so much. I would buy or checkout all the books and then only use half because I didn't know which one I would choose from week to week. If you have the time to look ahead and plan that would be key. I do not have that kind of time.

 

3. As I mentioned earlier I use HOD lit books and some SL to keep kids on their level. Also we have enjoyed the pp lit studies. It has been good. I also add in figuratively speaking workbook before they hit high school. Then we do Windows to the world the year before AP English.

 

4. We enjoyed TOG ancients but I started with (I think week 4?) Genesis and then went back to Egypt. Just could not stand not starting from the beginning 😆. The Bible was the best in this year as the upper levels used a lot of the actual Bible for history. Lower levels use different children's bible (wasn't particularly thrilled with any of these.) MFW uses streams of civilization which is great for us. Gets to the point, we liked the pictures, and it makes everything easy. There is also a focus on the feasts (there is in TOG too). It's just so much simpler with MFW to get all the levels combined *for me. My kids love doing the history and science and music together. This has really been a bonus that I was not expecting. I couldn't go to anything else as I would loose this fellowship with siblings.

 

 

I'm sure I didn't answer half your questions, but hope some of this helps. I'll read over it again later and see if I can add anything else. :)

 

Blessings,

Kristen

 

Thanks, Kristen!! I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions!  Do you use DITHOR with the HOD readers, or just the books?

 

Also, you said you didn't know which TOG books you'd use from week to week.  Were you using the redesigned?  It looks like the left side is the main program and the right side is alternate books.  Were you trying to do the left side?  I'm just trying to understand what book choices you were having to make.  I was thinking if I used the left side, I wouldn't have to be making book choices, that I could just go with what is planned.

 

I was planning to add Figuratively Speaking as well.  It looks like a concise and efficient way to cover literary terms.

 

I forgot TOG Ancients doesn't start with creation.  I remember noticing that in the sample and wondering about that.  Thanks for the reminder!  My kids have enjoyed being combined this year as well.  If we stay with MFW, it will be interesting to see what combined history really looks like in MFW.  They are still pretty separated this year in 1850-Mod, except for the states and presidents studies and a few other readings here and there.

 

Thanks again!  I really appreciate your insights!

 

Kathy

 

ETA:  I meant to ask, are you using any of MFW high school?

Edited November 8, 2016 by jer2911mom

[5sons]

Yes I was using redesigned and just the left side, but some weeks (and this was mostly years 2,3,4) it was still too much reading especially the D and R levels. Plus I could rarely find the books in the library for the lg and ug levels. Thus picking and choosing. Buying all the books for all the levels is four times as expensive as MFW, again being cost prohibitive and back to choosing books.

 

This is just my experience but I do have lots of kiddos so keeping them together as much as possible is much easier for me. So someone like yourself who only had two levels with one child in each would be much easier to manage. Sounds like you might really enjoy TOG :)

 

I do use DITHOR but every other year. It gets old really fast. Sometimes I like them to just enjoy the literature!

 

I do use MFW highschool, but AHL in 8th and WHL in 9th for the excellent bible schedule and history and literature. From 10th on we do our own thing. This is what works for us ;)

 

Hope you have fun choosing :)

 

Kristen

[jer2911mom]

Yes I was using redesigned and just the left side, but some weeks (and this was mostly years 2,3,4) it was still too much reading especially the D and R levels. Plus I could rarely find the books in the library for the lg and ug levels. Thus picking and choosing. Buying all the books for all the levels is four times as expensive as MFW, again being cost prohibitive and back to choosing books.

 

This is just my experience but I do have lots of kiddos so keeping them together as much as possible is much easier for me. So someone like yourself who only had two levels with one child in each would be much easier to manage. Sounds like you might really enjoy TOG :)

 

I do use DITHOR but every other year. It gets old really fast. Sometimes I like them to just enjoy the literature!

 

I do use MFW highschool, but AHL in 8th and WHL in 9th for the excellent bible schedule and history and literature. From 10th on we do our own thing. This is what works for us ;)

 

Hope you have fun choosing :)

 

Kristen

 

Thanks, Kristen!  I'm concerned about the cost of buying TOG books as well.  

 

Even with just two, I like having them combined while I still can, so I go back and forth on whether or not TOG would be a good fit.

 

I know what you mean about just wanting kids to enjoy literature sometimes and not killing their love of reading!

 

Thanks again for all the info.!

 

Kathy

[InHisGrace7]

I don't post here a lot, although I do read these forums a good bit. But I wanted to just comment a little on your struggle to decide between the 2. I have similarly struggled very much in trying to decide the best course. My oldest is a senior and just today I was mentioning MFW, hadn't talked about it in months, and she surprised me by saying that she wishes we would have done that. She's doing SL Core 400 this year, and likes it, but really liked the simplicity of MFW, which we did in her 7th and 8th grade years. I vacillated between MFW, SL, and TOG for my kids, and tried TOG a good bit. Here's how I sum it up - with SL, I feel behind most of the time and that there's something more I want from it but can't quite put my finger on what it is. With TOG, I just feel overwhelmed. Stressed when I do it to the full, guilty when I slack off and try to be relaxed. It has such a heavy emphasis on historical analysis that it took the joy out of history for us. For some people, that might fire them up though. The times we used MFW, we felt just right, like Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You can easily add SL readers to it, it has hands-on that you can choose to do or not do, the TM is just right, the work load is just right, and because of that it can feel too light compared to the other 2. But I actually felt satisfied with what we accomplished when we did it.

 

I am doing SL with all 5 of mine this year - have used it for the past several years, but am missing the simplicity and hands on of MFW, which my kids would choose also if I laid it all in front of them! My oldest loves to read so SL has been good, and she admits that TOG was more rigorous, but she just said today that if she ever homeschools, she'd like to use MFW. I was surprised!

 

I would love to do MFW ECC with my younger 3 next year, which I do have already! And no idea what my rising junior would do, maybe just finish out with SL like his older sister. Hope some of this helps!

[nicoleseitler]

TOG was the first programs I found that made me fall in love with the classical approach to homeschooling. From there, I discovered Sonlight, WTM/SOTW and Memoria Press. Thankfully, I love being eclectic. LOL! So, it all works out!

 

I have been using TOG for the last 8 years--but I would say that it's in a very "Sonlight" manner. By that, I mean that I mainly benefit from having TOG's book recommendations and their timeline. I will typically pull out TOG at the beginning of the year to create a reading list and I'll use the week's chapter headings as I plan out the spine of our year. In doing that, I get a real sense of when I should be heading to the library to find a few books on the Titanic or Jazz music, etc. I feel like it helps give me "themes" and see the big picture.

 

But I've never felt like I needed to take all of the suggestions in TOG. (I wouldn't recommend it, either! LOL!) We've never had a "unit celebration" or made a salt map. Those kinds of things are just not my cup of tea. But I don't feel like I'm "not using" TOG because I'm not taking all of their suggestions. I get a ton out of it! I'm also happy to know that all those things are there for other mommas who would delight in that stuff! But--at the same time--all those extra things also make TOG one of the most all-encompassing curricula that I know of! To me, it feels like SOTW meets FiaR meets Sonlight meets VP's Omnibus. That's why I have stayed with it and plan to do so for the next 12 years I'll be teaching!

 

What personally I love about TOG is having ALL the info I need in one place... it makes me feel equipped, for sure! But, like with any curriculum, you don't let IT drive YOU! You take what you need from it, laugh at all the extras and move on. :D I mean, if I took all of AAS's suggestions, we'd be doing spelling all day! Every curriculum seems to offer more than you really need. But I feel like that's a good thing with TOG. It gives me a lot to choose from!

 

I hope that helps!

[5sons]

The times we used MFW, we felt just right, like Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You can easily add SL readers to it, it has hands-on that you can choose to do or not do, the TM is just right, the work load is just right, and because of that it can feel too light compared to the other 2. But I actually felt satisfied with what we accomplished when we did it.

 

 

This sums it up nicely for me! And everyone is different in what their goals are and what they can accomplish.

 

Kristen

[jer2911mom]

I don't post here a lot, although I do read these forums a good bit. But I wanted to just comment a little on your struggle to decide between the 2. I have similarly struggled very much in trying to decide the best course. My oldest is a senior and just today I was mentioning MFW, hadn't talked about it in months, and she surprised me by saying that she wishes we would have done that. She's doing SL Core 400 this year, and likes it, but really liked the simplicity of MFW, which we did in her 7th and 8th grade years. I vacillated between MFW, SL, and TOG for my kids, and tried TOG a good bit. Here's how I sum it up - with SL, I feel behind most of the time and that there's something more I want from it but can't quite put my finger on what it is. With TOG, I just feel overwhelmed. Stressed when I do it to the full, guilty when I slack off and try to be relaxed. It has such a heavy emphasis on historical analysis that it took the joy out of history for us. For some people, that might fire them up though. The times we used MFW, we felt just right, like Goldilocks and the 3 bears. You can easily add SL readers to it, it has hands-on that you can choose to do or not do, the TM is just right, the work load is just right, and because of that it can feel too light compared to the other 2. But I actually felt satisfied with what we accomplished when we did it.

 

I am doing SL with all 5 of mine this year - have used it for the past several years, but am missing the simplicity and hands on of MFW, which my kids would choose also if I laid it all in front of them! My oldest loves to read so SL has been good, and she admits that TOG was more rigorous, but she just said today that if she ever homeschools, she'd like to use MFW. I was surprised!

 

I would love to do MFW ECC with my younger 3 next year, which I do have already! And no idea what my rising junior would do, maybe just finish out with SL like his older sister. Hope some of this helps!

 

Thanks so much for your reply!  I really appreciate your perspective!  I love the way you summed up SL, TOG, and MFW.  I always feel behind with SL, too.  Always.  They just don't allow breathing room for adding in holiday activities, field trips, etc.  And I always want something more from them that eludes me as well.  I want a few projects, some notebooking, some kind of "output", grading rubrics, etc.  It's hard to really define what's missing; I just know it is.  I really appreciate knowing that TOG's emphasis on historical analysis took the joy out of history for you guys.  I have a feeling it would be the same way for us.  We aren't the ones who would be fired up by that.  The word I've had on my heart this year with MFW is "balance".  The book basket really flushes it out and yet gives us the flexibility we need as far as how much depth we go into each day.  We are finally having some more manageable days time-wise.  I like adding the SL readers to it as well.  I like that art and music are scheduled for us.  We are actually doing science experiments this year because there is one set for both of my kids.  I actually feel like we have more reading this year in 1850-Mod than we had in Core D.  I was surprised by that.  It has fewer read-alouds, but more history reading each day, and definitely more work related to the reading.  I like the paper maps, too.

 

I think if we went back to SL we would miss the simplicity of MFW as well.  My kids love to read as well, so SL has been good for them in that regard.  I think the actual history readings are a wash, though.  It's more the SL read-alouds and readers that we have enjoyed the most.  And I can add those to MFW.

 

Thanks for your thoughts!  I really appreciate your insights!

 

Kathy

[jer2911mom]

TOG was the first programs I found that made me fall in love with the classical approach to homeschooling. From there, I discovered Sonlight, WTM/SOTW and Memoria Press. Thankfully, I love being eclectic. LOL! So, it all works out!

 

I have been using TOG for the last 8 years--but I would say that it's in a very "Sonlight" manner. By that, I mean that I mainly benefit from having TOG's book recommendations and their timeline. I will typically pull out TOG at the beginning of the year to create a reading list and I'll use the week's chapter headings as I plan out the spine of our year. In doing that, I get a real sense of when I should be heading to the library to find a few books on the Titanic or Jazz music, etc. I feel like it helps give me "themes" and see the big picture.

 

But I've never felt like I needed to take all of the suggestions in TOG. (I wouldn't recommend it, either! LOL!) We've never had a "unit celebration" or made a salt map. Those kinds of things are just not my cup of tea. But I don't feel like I'm "not using" TOG because I'm not taking all of their suggestions. I get a ton out of it! I'm also happy to know that all those things are there for other mommas who would delight in that stuff! But--at the same time--all those extra things also make TOG one of the most all-encompassing curricula that I know of! To me, it feels like SOTW meets FiaR meets Sonlight meets VP's Omnibus. That's why I have stayed with it and plan to do so for the next 12 years I'll be teaching!

 

What personally I love about TOG is having ALL the info I need in one place... it makes me feel equipped, for sure! But, like with any curriculum, you don't let IT drive YOU! You take what you need from it, laugh at all the extras and move on. :D I mean, if I took all of AAS's suggestions, we'd be doing spelling all day! Every curriculum seems to offer more than you really need. But I feel like that's a good thing with TOG. It gives me a lot to choose from!

 

I hope that helps!

 

Thanks, Nicole!  That's an interesting concept, using TOG in a SL manner.  Do you use the TOG discussion questions at all?  Or the writing assignments?  Do you read the background notes?  The amount of information for each week is daunting to me.  But I can see how it would be helpful as we move towards high school.

 

Kathy