Race and Homeschooling Culture

[poppy]

I can think of a large number of reasons why these two groups of students would have different levels of professional success. Pinning in on the college's diversity level would not have occurred to me - socioeconomic factors (finances, first generation), aptitude, and connections seem to me by far the more relevant ones.

Of course, but , I think being part of a diverse college community is *another* valuable thing those kids miss out on and really does often have an impact. It can't be measured -- and trust me, every kid from my hometown who went to the state school 7 minutes down the road would say it's completely irrelevant . But my experience professionally (working in HR) says they are incorrect.

[shawthorne44]

But it is one of the main purposes of public education the founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson, had in mind. The goal was to give all kids the chance at an education, not just those from educated/well off families who would have these opportunities at home. That is social justice at its very core.

 

Social Justice has a MUCH broader definition.  

[maize]

I think college is an fine time to be introduced to a less homogenous world, if you are white. From Facebook I can see a pretty obvious "success gap" (professionally) from people who went to regular college vs those who went to hometown community colleges that are not diverse.

I do suppose being someone "intro to different" sure must not be fun for some of the non-white kids just headed off to college themselves.

Um, I think you'd see the same success gap in areas where the local community college has a high percentage of blacks and Hispanics.

 

My alma mater was a private school with relatively little diversity, and there is a big success gap between its graduates and those of community colleges in the area.

[maize]

Guys, I think diversity is awesome--I truly love interacting with people from all kinds of backgrounds. We learn so much, broaden our horizons, develop a richer understanding of the world and greater empathy for people outside of our natural in-group circles when we do that.

 

But pinning professional success to exposure to diversity? I really don't think that theory holds up to scrutiny.

 

Certainly diversity at this nation's elite universities is quite a recent change, and I don't think the graduates of those universities were any less successful in life when they were the exclusive province of rich white males.

Edited October 18, 2016 by maize

[Guest]

Through the Muslim contingent, I know a lot of non-white homeschoolers. Black, Hispanic, sundry Middle-Eastern country origins, ditto Asian.. and blended race families.

 

Military homeschool groups seem to be roughly representative of the local mil community. By "groups" I mean, the homeschoolers one runs into in the course of life in mil communities, not co-ops or whatever.

 

And outside of those, it *is* mostly white, but not super outside the greater demographics of the towns I've lived in.

 

I've visited friends who are in different socio-economic classes than me (going in both directions) and they were seas of white folks.

 

As the Polish say, it is what it is.

[Guest]

 

I don't do this "to expose my kids to diversity".  Kids who are poorer than them do not exist as object lessons for my sons.  Nor do black, asian, hispanic or any other children exist so my sons can "experience diversity".. 

 

. 

 

This is the thought I kept having reading this thread, too.

 

But then I got to thinking that it's better to be purposeful about it, than ignore it and assume kids will figure it out.

 

But still....  ::shrug:: I dunno. Not one of those problems I'm going to solve, I guess. I guess I'd just advise folks to keep a discerning eye on themselves so that "seeking diversity" doesn't become "slummin' it for friends."

 

***I am not accusing anyone in this thread of anything whatsoever. Just aggreeing with LucyStoner on this point specifically b/c some kind of intangible something rubs me the wrong way.

[poppy]

Um, I think you'd see the same success gap in areas where the local community college has a high percentage of blacks and Hispanics.

 

My alma mater was a private school with relatively little diversity, and there is a big success gap between its graduates and those of community colleges in the area.

 

I expect you would see the same success gap?  The issue is not experiencing diversity,  not "not being near brown people".

 

When I talk about diversity it's a little beyond the title of this thread and refers to religion, sexual identity, ethnic background, SES as well as race.  I do know there are private college that shy away from diversity (Bible colleges ?) but I think they are in the minority.

[maize]

I expect you would see the same success gap? The issue is not experiencing diversity, not "not being near brown people".

 

When I talk about diversity it's a little beyond the title of this thread and refers to religion, sexual identity, ethnic background, SES as well as race. I do know there are private college that shy away from diversity (Bible colleges ?) but I think they are in the minority.

I apologize, you're really not making sense to me.

 

Community colleges in area with a lot of diversity tend to reflect that diversity. I assume those students experience diversity by your standards? And yet student career success at those very diverse schools is similar to student career success coming out of community colleges in more homogenous areas.

 

Private schools that draw there students from less diverse populations--for example, a regional university in a state that is predominantly white--will tend to have a student population that reflects the population of the state--so mostly white. It's not a matter of valuing diversity or not, it's just where the students come from. There are entire nation's that are primarily one ethnicity--are the students of their universities condemned to mediocrity because of a lack of experience of significant diversity during their university career?

[CaffeineDiary]

Today I learned that "Not living near any brown people" is just some sort of weird coincidental accident and isn't anyone's fault at all and as long as we are all personally nice it's ok.  And that racism happens, but mysteriously always happens elsewhere, not quite sure where but definitely far away.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by CaffeineDiary

[shinyhappypeople]

 

 

I find the statement in an earlier post above that schools should only focus on academics to be strange.  As someone who has worked for many years in several industries, I would assert that someone who has not been personally exposed to people of diverse cultural and ethnic backgrounds, and had the chance to work together with them one on one and to develop the skills to relate to and get along with them, is someone who is completely unprepared for almost any professional career.  Dropping a white kid who has virtually never had a serious conversation with an African-American or Hispanic person off at college and saying "OK, good luck with the real world!" strikes me as unconscionable.

 

This statement bugs me.  I know you don't mean it in a bad way.  I honor that your intentions are good.  I also respect that any racism I see (read) is entirely unintentional.  I get that.

 

But, wow.

 

How will a child work with or have a relationship with a black/hispanic/asian person without childhood exposure?  Raise your child to be a decent human being.  Do your best to model the habit of kindness to everyone.

 

I mean, this statement kept me awake last night.  How would your kid be prepared to work with my "Mexican" looking husband?  Come ready to work.  He's JUST.A.PERSON.  Your kid won't need special sensitivity training or cultural exposure experiences to work for him. (I can't believe I'm having to say this.)  

 

I think the biggest thing we can do for our kids (and for ourselves!!) is to learn to leave our assumptions and condescension at the door.  Approach people as people.  Don't assume that the "Mexican" kid speaks Spanish (DH ran into this a lot when he worked retail.).  Don't assume the Asian kid can tutor you in math.  Don't assume the black kid loves rap.  Don't assume that because a person speaks like he or she is from the inner city that s/he is stupid or lazy.  Instead, say hello and get to know him or her in the *exact same way* you'd get to know a white person.  

 

Be kind. If our kids run into a person who is particularly sensitive about racial or ethnic issues and expresses it in a hateful way (this is becoming more common, sadly) they need to just learn to mentally say "alrighty then...," don't take it personally, don't make generalizations about other people of that race/ethnicity, and continue to be a kind, decent person.  It'll all shake out in the end.  

 

If a person engages in a conversation about racial or ethnic issues in a non-hateful way... LISTEN.  We all have so much to learn from each other.

 

That's it.  Off my soapbox.

Edited October 18, 2016 by shinyhappypeople

[SKL]

Of course, but , I think being part of a diverse college community is *another* valuable thing those kids miss out on and really does often have an impact. It can't be measured -- and trust me, every kid from my hometown who went to the state school 7 minutes down the road would say it's completely irrelevant . But my experience professionally (working in HR) says they are incorrect.

 

I went to one of those local "regional campuses" which was the only reasonable commute from home.  I think you might have the cause/effect wrong.  There are reasons people choose not to leave home, and race generally isn't one of them.  Self confidence is probably the biggest - possibly in-born, possibly taught by parents who don't view their kids as fancy college material.  The same factors that lead people to stay close to home also impact their professional opportunities.

 

And also, agreeing with Regentrude, connections and access to more career opportunities are big too.  Diverse connections regardless of race, and also hands-on experiences that go beyond whatever the local economy does.

[poppy]

Today I learned that "Not living near any brown people" is just some sort of weird coincidental accident and isn't anyone's fault at all and as long as we are all personally nice it's ok.  And that racism happens, but mysteriously always happens elsewhere, not quite sure where but definitely far away.

 

Could you speak more clearly? I can't read through your many layers of scorn to understand  your point,.

[maize]

I looked up demographic information for my current state's flagship university and for the large community college in the same city. The university is 69% non Hispanic white, the community college 67%.

 

Both schools have similar diversity profiles; oddly the career prospects and success of the graduates diverge significantly in favor of the university graduates.

 

What a surprise.

[maize]

Today I learned that "Not living near any brown people" is just some sort of weird coincidental accident and isn't anyone's fault at all and as long as we are all personally nice it's ok. And that racism happens, but mysteriously always happens elsewhere, not quite sure where but definitely far away.

Don't know where you learned these things, they haven't been stated in the thread.

 

Though some of us have acknowledged the reality that some parts of the country are less ethnically diverse than others, for a variety of historical reasons (among them, immigrants tending to settle near their point of arrival in the country).

Edited October 18, 2016 by maize

[SKL]

Curious as to whether some of you feel it that attending a historically black college (as a black young adult) is also damaging due to the lack of diversity?  My [professionally successful] friends who have attended same would not say so.

[heartlikealion]

I've noticed a white majority as well. I have met some homeschoolers that are not white. And then there's me, I'm half Mexican. I've met hispanic and black homeschoolers at homeschool events, but very few. In my town (not where we went for homeschool events) the majority of the population is black and I know of a few local homeschool families, all of which are white.

 

Things are crazy here. Like so much segregation still exists, intentional or not. It baffles me still. More or less the black kids attend the public school and the white kids attend the private (but the private has a mix now. Mostly white, though). And then I've attended churches where it's like two different parishes because I don't hear about what's going on with the Hispanic community when I attend the English speaking Mass (or maybe I'm off base here. It's just that this past weekend something was clearly going on with one community in the church hall but I had no idea what). And when I attend the Spanish Mass I don't know what the announcements are because I barely know any Spanish (didn't get passed down). There was a Halloween party announced recently and someone told me that both groups usually attend so that made me happy. Dh went to a cemetery looking for a certain grave and a man told him he was looking on the wrong side because apparently there is a black and white side! :sad:

Edited October 18, 2016 by heartlikealion

[shinyhappypeople]

Curious as to whether some of you feel it that attending a historically black college (as a black young adult) is also damaging due to the lack of diversity?  My [professionally successful] friends who have attended same would not say so.

 

Is it damaging for a Christian to attend a Christian college?  No.

 

Is it bad for a hyper-liberal kid to attend a school with like-minded profs?  Well... maybe... (just kidding!)  

 

Kind of the same thing, I think.  

[PineFarmMom]

Instead of just trusting anecdotes, we could look at the (somewhat sparse) data that exists.

 

http://www.responsiblehomeschooling.org/homeschooling-101/homeschool-demographics/

 

 

I find the statement in an earlier post above that schools should only focus on academics to be strange.  As someone who has worked for many years in several industries, I would assert that someone who has not been personally exposed to people of diverse cultural and ethnic backgrounds, and had the chance to work together with them one on one and to develop the skills to relate to and get along with them, is someone who is completely unprepared for almost any professional career.  Dropping a white kid who has virtually never had a serious conversation with an African-American or Hispanic person off at college and saying "OK, good luck with the real world!" strikes me as unconscionable.

I have life experience with an adult child who was homeschooled all the way through, in not-very-diverse settings, that has resulted in something contrary to what you are saying.  

 

We lived in a predominantly white community.  Church, sports, outside activities were predominantly white kids.  It wasn't by choice on our part, just the way things fell while my husband pursued work that supported our family and we pursued a home education that we wanted to 1.) Bring glory to God; and 2.) Prepare them well for college, life, and to have a positive influence.  

 

We spent a lot of time discussing slavery, the Trail of Tears, diversity, apartheid, God's view of every tongue, every tribe, every nation.  My goal was to encourage a view to God's glory and people knowing Christ, our equality as human beings in God's eyes, and the sin of viewing things differently from that.  I failed a lot, but God didn't.   

 

Fast forward, and my oldest has been strongly involved in campus ministry with the purpose of diversity.  She spent last summer involved in an overseas mission team as the only white student among 15 who went to South Africa; not only that, she was with a team from another state and knew NO ONE!!  There was one or two Hispanic students and the rest were African Americans.  Not only did she thrive but was recommended by the leadership, who was also of another race, to be a leader as well BECAUSE of a distinct heart that they saw in her in regards to race.  She was somewhat of an enigma to them because she was raised in the south in a conservative, white, homeschooled family.  Apparently, that mixture was a good one.  The key?  I prayed hard for this child.  God led me to specific prayers for her, specific missionary biographies, specific books to shape her.  I failed a lot, but God didn't.  

 

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by PineFarmMom

[HS Mom in NC]

I think the language "completely unprepared" is probably too extreme,

 

Probably?  So you're disregarding the examples listed here of people who lived in areas that just weren't diverse.  Even though there are minorities around, as I'll explain in this post, that doesn't mean they're especially accessible in the ways you seem to think they are. I'm going to focus mostly on Hispanics because it's a large minority here.

 

but saying that someone who has almost no experience interacting with people who aren't from their own background puts them at a disadvantage in most modern American workplaces is so true.

 

Background can mean more than race.  Plenty of workplaces are more homogeneous depending on region and which kind of workplace it is.  My husband writes software.  It's 90% white and male.  You have to love math and language to be a great programmer. Again, as stated and shown upthread, people from places where there was no opportunity to meet people from different backgrounds have done just fine when they finally got an opportunity to be in a more diverse group because they were taught or adopted positive attitudes that universally apply to people-even types of people they hadn't met yet. 

 

And interacting with people who are different does take practice and awareness.

 

It can, but that doesn't mean someone unpracticed is going to be unable to hit the ground running in a new and diverse situation.  They are not necessarily doomed.  Yes, people can be successful even if they haven't had the same opportunities to interact with minorities like you've had. 

 

I don't think anyone needs to be rude or invasive or to seek out people who simply don't live around you. But most Americans live in urban or suburban areas,

 

Now you're disregarding the significant minority of people who aren't in that situation.  This is exactly the situation people pointed out when they asked about how.  She cheated by not answering it and now I think you're cheating. I think it's probably due to your own background not having been in a situation where diverse opportunities are extremely limited or non-existent and you're struggling to grasp it.

 

Here we have lots of Hispanics.  Many of them live in mostly Hispanic urban and suburban neighborhoods. Most don't opt for country living.  I've never seen one in the country that wasn't a migrant worker (I lived in the country for my first 20 years.)  Most migrant workers in those situations speaks very little English. Sure, some American Hispanics live in the suburbs, most of them live in Hispanic neighborhoods in urban and some suburban areas. 

 

The same with African Americans here.  I have yet to see one of the 3% of African Americans here living in a rural area.  I'm sure that happens in The South, but I don't live in The South.

 

Native Americans stay on the reservations around here.  I lived next a reservation for 14 years.  They came to the grocery store where I shopped in the border but they don't interact with white people.  When one little Native American boy (maybe 3?) was in the aisle with me and proudly showed me the Transformers movie he was getting, I smiled and said, "Cool movie!" His mother glared at me and yanked him so hard that he lost his footing and stamped away.  A native woman from the reservation (who grew up in US fostercare until 18) went to my church.  Her husband is white.  I offered to pick up and drop off her oldest and mine for youth group events but she told me she would come to my house and pick him up.  "You're white.  It's not safe for you here in the reservation." They finally had to move because the locals repeatedly shot at her house because she was married to a white guy.  Her kids went to school in the US side because they're mixed. Most of those Native Americans in that area don't want to interact with white people.

 

which means that while your individual corner may be more homogeneous, there's probably a wider community around you. People asked for specifics things... I think it takes effort and making that one of the things you look for in social opportunities. So, just like you're looking for a kids sports league that, say, has nice coaches and cheap uniforms, you make "and has kids from a variety of backgrounds" one of those type of priorities.

 

Well, my kids are/were into archery and Tae Kwon Do.  Who plays those sports here?  White people for both and Asians for Tae Kwon Do.  What's weird to me is Mexico has about 7 different competitive archery teams every year middle daughter competed in Las Vegas, yet I haven't seen more than one or two Hispanics in archery here in the US.  There were 4 black archers out of the 4,000 competitors. 4. I think there a couple of Hispanic TKD kids in TKD and there was a black kid and a native American kid but I think they either quit or moved. 

 

You make that one of the things you're looking for in a church, in a volunteer group, a co-op, a book club, a neighborhood. And sometimes you don't get it

 

Hispanics are usually Catholic or non-church going.  We're not.  So again, while there may be a very large population of Hispanics here, they're in extremely low numbers in the churches I've gone to.  I look for churches with doctrinal statements and church policies that match my convictions.

 

Hispanics rarely homeschool. I don't know why.  There are a few here and there but there aren't many at all.

 

- you're not moving to a neighborhood because it has non-white people, but you're saying to yourself, this is a bonus - it will help me decide between two options or even that you'll choose it over another place because you decide to weight that, just like you would for, say, a large yard.

 

I do use demographics when considering moving because I have an Asian adoptee, but that's more regional that neighborhood.  (We're considering a move in the next few years across the country.) However, it's not to find a wider range of ethnic backgrounds, it's to find higher Asian populations, which isn't really what you're suggesting-it's kind of the opposite.

 

Few people have the luxury of options when it comes to that.  How exactly do you find out how many people of different races are in the 2 neighborhoods you're choosing?  When we looked for this house the list of things we needed included near two intersecting freeways for my husband the contractor/consultant because we expect his clients to change every few years, price,  lease flexibility, proximity to what we already have going on, drive time to the elderly relatives and his terminally ill sister we are having to increasingly help out with, etc.  I doubt my list is significantly different than many other people's. 

 

I have no problem with a diverse neighborhood at all-I prefer it, but the chances it will be a decision maker is extremely unlikely. 

 

And you also (and this is a struggle for me) make yourself willing to be uncomfortable by joining in activities where you and your kids are in the minority.

 

Here's the thing about that: most of the time it's an ethnic event, people outside the ethnic group are unaware of it.  We do a lot with the Asian American community and their cultural events, but we know about them because the adoption agency and other Asian social networking groups are letting their members know.  How will people who aren't part of the community find out about it?

 

And you make an extra effort to be more friendly and welcoming to the families around you who aren't in the majority just because you know that's hard to be different - whether it's religion, parenting style, family size, etc. or race.

 

Again, and this is the point people are trying to get across, there aren't always people like that around.  And be sure you've read about all the challenges and difficulties related to co-ops and groups before you way that so casually.  The heavy handed authoritarian parents just isn't going to go over well with the attachment parenting and the unparenting crowds.  Those of us who nursed toddlers in public are "bad influences" on the kids of women who think no nursing should happen in public or without a blanket. Standards of behavior for children can vary dramatically and what each style of parenting considers acceptable interaction between parent and child is just as different.  Put those people together in a group and there will be conflict as we've all seen.  Add in cultural layers (many Hispanic are considered very harsh compared to mainstream white American parenting-Carlos Menica built his stand up career joking about it) and it's even dicier.

 

I know people in the 6-10 kids range and they're all very religious.  None of them go to secular groups because it takes a lot to get the kids out the door and when they make that kind of effort, they often look for a group that focuses on support for their life choices.  And they're really busy. A new homeschooling family of 7 kids moved into the neighborhood.  I invited them over.  They have kids deathly allergic to cats.  I have 3.  So I invited them to homeschool PE at the park.  She told me straight up, "Look, it's really nice of you to offer and I would but our schedule is so full I can barely maintain it now.  I just can't add anything else into my life."

 

And isn't that true of most homeschoolers?  Most homeschoolers are already busy.  Add on to that they don't have a huge range of group options to choose from, at least that's what I hear on this board.  When we do have options we have to consider multiple factors: time, date, location; drive time; the content covered; the methods used; the cost of resources: time, energy and money; whether or not it's a well run group; a range of group dynamics; adding diversity to that is fine, but odds are not good it will be the deciding factor because people don't usually have a luxury of options to choose from.

 

And will it always work out? No. But simply saying, I can teach my kids to be "nice" and "kind" to "everyone" is something that doesn't work. (Always worth rereading the Nurtureshock race chapter) It takes explicit teaching and it takes experiences.

 

Yes, explicit teaching is needed, but that doesn't mean explicit teaching without the opportunity for a racially diverse experience leaves a child incapable.  I know it's really hard to believe, but there are people who really do come from places where there isn't the opportunity.  The whole world isn't like where you live.  It really isn't. People where aren't making it up.

 

And recognizing that most homeschooled kids are at a disadvantage when it comes to racial awareness is the first step to embracing that explicit teaching. And it's okay... I do think it can be done, even in homogeneous communities. I'm not saying that. You work with the community you've got. But if you live in a mostly-white small town or city then recognizing that your town represents "America" less and less is probably pretty important to helping your kids understand the world they live in.

 

Yes, so you're finally answering the how to some degree.  Recognize that other parts of America are more diverse and teach kids about that. So that would be talking about it.  Great.  I would add reading books written by minorities about where they live and what their lives are like.   Movies by minorities that portray a wide range of minorities and their different situations is helpful. Reading about or listening to minority perspectives on current and historical events is important. IN other words, going first source and getting their perspectives from them.

 

 

 

[heartlikealion]

I'm not sure how to read CaffeineDiary's quote. I don't know if she's saying she was the one that had the chance to work together with a diverse group or suggesting if someone else had the chance and didn't, then they were unprepared. I don't think she's suggesting that you're necessarily unprepared for life if you just didn't have the opportunity, though.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We are a diverse family with a diverse extended family (racially as well as culturally) living in a diverse neighborhood. I don't know why the racial composition of local homeschoolers would change that. And if anyone befriended us to somehow add to their diverse friend quota, we would see right through it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marbel]

<snip>

 

I mean, this statement kept me awake last night.  How would your kid be prepared to work with my "Mexican" looking husband?  Come ready to work.  He's JUST.A.PERSON.  Your kid won't need special sensitivity training or cultural exposure experiences to work for him. (I can't believe I'm having to say this.)  

 

I think the biggest thing we can do for our kids (and for ourselves!!) is to learn to leave our assumptions and condescension at the door.  Approach people as people.  Don't assume that the "Mexican" kid speaks Spanish (DH ran into this a lot when he worked retail.).  Don't assume the Asian kid can tutor you in math.  Don't assume the black kid loves rap.  Don't assume that because a person speaks like he or she is from the inner city that s/he is stupid or lazy.  Instead, say hello and get to know him or her in the *exact same way* you'd get to know a white person.  

 

<snip>

 

Oh yeah.

 

I had a great friend who was the daughter of "wetbacks" (her word not mine) but was born and raised in California (SF Bay Area).  People always assumed she spoke Spanish and was even criticized often by people for not retaining her "heritage langusge."  But she didn't feel that way about it, and didn't care to learn it. 

 

I've said this here (not this thread) before.  When I was working in Silicon Valley in the '90s we had to endure hours of diversity training.  It was such a waste of time for all of us, including the nonwhite people.   People weren't judged by their ethnicity, color, etc.  They were judged by their work!   And we all wanted to get back to it and not sit through interminable meetings where we were encouraged to respect each other, as if we didn't already.   

 

Before I had that job, I had never been around people from India. Suddenly, I was.  It didn't occur to me to think I had to treat them any differently than any other coworkers. They were, as it turned out, pretty much like me in most ways, except they brought better lunches from home. 

[regentrude]

Today I learned that "Not living near any brown people" is just some sort of weird coincidental accident and isn't anyone's fault at all and as long as we are all personally nice it's ok.  And that racism happens, but mysteriously always happens elsewhere, not quite sure where but definitely far away.

 

Now you lost me completely.

Yes, the fact that our county is 93% white is not anyone's  fault. It's not like white people have relocated 100 miles from the nearest city with a significant black population percentage into the middle of nowhere to segregate themselves. It is that historically whites have settled this rural region and founded the town in the 19th century, and black people have not moved here. Pretty much nobody moves here unless it's for work.

So yes, it is a complete coincidence.

Edited October 18, 2016 by regentrude

[Twolittleboys]

I don't have anything to say about the original topic (we don't homeschool nor does anyone else here) but as everyone is anyone pretty much off topic:

 

I do agree that kids should be exposed to different kinds of people. This can mean different socio-economic groups, different religious beliefs, different races, whatever. Exposure can be through actually meeting people but it could also be through books, TV, stories, travel, etc. Not everyone lives in an area where there is really much chance to meet people significantly different from themselves.

 

But I do not agree that people are handicapped for life just because they grow up in a less diverse environment. Where I went to school, pretty much everyone was one of two denominations/religions (Lutheran or Catholic). There were a number of Muslim kids in elementary school but not in the highschool I went to. There was noone with ancestors from Africa and only one boy who was half Asian. Once I got to highschool, most everyone was middle class/upper middle class as well. And honestly I don't think it has made it harder for me to function in a multi-cultural work place. I have worked in teams with dozens of different nationalities and it really doesn't make a difference. Actually, I often think education/socio-economic factors are much more difficult to overcome on a personal level than race/religion.

[AngelaNYC]

Have we ever had this conversation before? I'm wondering if it's just me or if the homeschooling culture seem rather weighted towards white people to you too. Do you know any non-white homeschoolers? I wish I did. I suppose I can think of a couple of Asian families. Do you think that I'm imagining a disparity? Have you noticed this as well? If so, why do you think that this is the case?

 

I hope that this thread in no way sounds disrespectful. I'm genuinely curious about whether white people are over represented, why that might be and what you see in your area of the world. For what it's worth I'm thinking of the homeschoolers that I know in northern BC. The only major minority (in my particular town, they're the majority) group up here is first nations and I've never met a first nations homeschooler.

 

 

Tons of non-white homeschoolers here in NYC.  All races, all religions.  It's great.

[poppy]

Curious as to whether some of you feel it that attending a historically black college (as a black young adult) is also damaging due to the lack of diversity? My [professionally successful] friends who have attended same would not say so.

HBCs tend to be reasonably diverse in many categories .

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CaffeineDiary]

Now you lost me completely.

Yes, the fact that our county is 93% white is not anyone's  fault. It's not like white people have relocated 100 miles from the nearest city with a significant black population percentage into the middle of nowhere to segregate themselves.

 

 

I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but my response would be "It is, in fact, exactly like that."  Blacks did not all just decide to move to the cities for their health, but for their safety.  Blacks who wandered into much of white America during much of the 1900s were inviting their own legal and socially sanctioned murder.

 

If you're honestly telling me you've never heard of the term "sundown town," then I invite you to learn about them.  If you have heard the term, then I'm wondering why you aren't connecting the fact that blacks were evicted from much of the US by violence to the fact that blacks aren't present in much of the US.

 

When you left the house for a trip to the beach, did your parents or grandparents need a book to let them know which towns you were most and least likely to be murdered in? Your black friends' parents and grandparents did:

 

http://the-toast.net/2016/06/29/the-negro-motorist-green-book/

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/blog/green-book-helped-keep-african-americans-safe-on-the-road/

 

White separatism in America is not a coincidence.  It's a direct, intended outcome of white supremacy.  You don't intend that outcome, I get it, but we are all eating the fruit of that tree.  

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by CaffeineDiary

[Guest]

Not every part of the country is like that, and no, not every person is aware that some states ARE highly stratified. When my husband went to college and someone told him to not go to the 'black' Meijer, it was the first time he has ever encountered that sort of localized segregation in towns and services. Our area has some neighborhoods that are more Hmong or Sudanese, but nothing like what we have seen in parts of the South and Midwest. Someone isn't being deliberately obtuse by citing their actual experiences don't reflect what you're saying they *must*. Really.

 

ETA - corrected the store name

Edited October 18, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Guest]

I think this thread has completely "jumped the shark". Wowza.

[SKL]

Yes, believe it or not, there are cities in the USA where lynching was never a phenomenon.  But why in the world would a family of any color move to a remote place where they didn't have a specific career or "life dream" intention?

 

I do understand that racism was a big factor in today's regional demographics.  Of course it was.  To some extent, in some places, it still is.  But how does that address the fact that places exist that are not racially diverse for reasons other than the people there are racist or ignorant?  You are injecting the past into people's individual decisions of today.  It doesn't make sense.

[Sneezyone]

Yes, believe it or not, there are cities in the USA where lynching was never a phenomenon. But why in the world would a family of any color move to a remote place where they didn't have a specific career or "life dream" intention?

 

I do understand that racism was a big factor in today's regional demographics. Of course it was. To some extent, in some places, it still is. But how does that address the fact that places exist that are not racially diverse for reasons other than the people there are racist or ignorant? You are injecting the past into people's individual decisions of today. It doesn't make sense.

They actually were present in much of rural America and many had the skill sets, farming and farm-related work, to thrive. Some, like my great grands in Eastern WA, owned large swaths of land. They were run off it by discriminatory farm bureau and USDA policies tho. There was a huge settlement ten-twenty years ago? They ultimately moved to Seattle before racially restrictive covenants barred them from most of the city, settling in Ballard and Mercer Island. They were lucky. Fruit of a poisonous tree seems an accurate way to describe it to me. Edited October 18, 2016 by Sneezyone

[CaffeineDiary]

I do understand that racism was a big factor in today's regional demographics.  Of course it was.  To some extent, in some places, it still is.  But how does that address the fact that places exist that are not racially diverse for reasons other than the people there are racist or ignorant?  You are injecting the past into people's individual decisions of today.  It doesn't make sense.

 

Saying that race informs every aspect of our lives as Americans, given that we are living in a country that only exists due to the plunder of black bodies, families, and lives, isn't "injecting the past".  It's acknowledging the present, which is based on the past. You profit, today, from hundreds of years of racism and plunder.  I profit, today, from hundreds of years of racism and plunder.  It doesn't mean that you or I are personally bad people or consciously racist in thought or deed.  But I acknowledge that it totally gets my dander up to see people looking around them and deciding that the lack of African Americans in their communities must just be, y'know, natural, as opposed to a condition that was intentionally created through murder.

Edited October 18, 2016 by CaffeineDiary

[SKL]

They actually were present is much of rural America and many had the skill sets, farming and farm-related work, to thrive. Some, like my great grands in Eastern WA, owned large swaths of land. They were run off it by discriminatory farm bureau and USDA policies tho. There was a huge settlement ten-twenty years ago?

 

Sure, the rural area I lived in had its fair share of black families / a black community.  I'm not sure how many generations back that family went, but it was several at least.  Well, there were some famous abolitionists in that area so maybe life there was a little better for black families than some other places.

 

But would any of them pick up and move to another remote place far away, just to do farming (which they could do just as well near their family / friends)?  Probably not.  I could see them doing it for a specific job opportunity, just like anyone else would.

[Guest]

They actually were present is much of rural America and many had the skill sets, farming and farm-related work, to thrive. Some, like my great grands in Eastern WA, owned large swaths of land. They were run off it by discriminatory farm bureau and USDA policies tho. There was a huge settlement ten-twenty years ago?

That's completely unacceptable. I'm so glad it was addressed - when I think of 'systemic racism' that's the sort of thing that comes to mind.

 

Our state has dealt with that with the treatment of native villages and boarding schools but those policies were corrected long before most of the current population came into this state, thankfully, and the problems of unfair treatment and segregation in terms of application of the law have been fixed for two generations now.

 

Add to that the very diverse mix of people who have come in during that time (from all over the world and other states too) and we really are in a good spot in terms of attitudes on culture and ethnicity in this city. It can actually boomerang the other direction more rurally, with deep suspicion and hatred of 'outsiders', but that's still less of a problem for the way people live day to day than what happened with those discriminatory education, farming, and other policies. It's one of those cool things about being a very young and very isolated state - we have our problems but managed to avoid some of the nastiest ones that became entrenched in other parts of the country.

[Sneezyone]

Sure, the rural area I lived in had its fair share of black families / a black community. I'm not sure how many generations back that family went, but it was several at least. Well, there were some famous abolitionists in that area so maybe life there was a little better for black families than some other places.

 

But would any of them pick up and move to another remote place far away, just to do farming (which they could do just as well near their family / friends)? Probably not. I could see them doing it for a specific job opportunity, just like anyone else would.

Seeing as how that's exactly what my great grands did (they were born in the south), yes, yes I do think that. Edited October 18, 2016 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

Saying that race informs every aspect of our lives as Americans, given that we are living in a country that only exists due to the plunder of black bodies, families, and lives, isn't "injecting the past".  It's acknowledging the present, which is based on the past. You profit, today, from hundreds of years of racism and plunder.  I profit, today, from hundreds of years of racism and plunder.  It doesn't mean that you or I are personally bad people or consciously racist in thought or deed.  But I acknowledge that it totally gets my dander up to see people looking around them and deciding that the lack of African Americans in their communities must just be, y'know, natural, as opposed to a condition that was intentionally created through murder.

 

So ... unless I missed it you haven't told us your own experience with racial diversity from birth and how you feel that impacted your ability to get along as an adult.  And you might as well add what you are doing to make sure your children experience the exact perfect degree of racial diversity so they won't be stupid mean idiots when they grow up.

[SKL]

Seeing as how that's exactly what my great grands did (they were born in the south), yes, yes I do think that.

 

Did they move from somewhere relatively comfortable (not in fear or economic trouble) to someplace where there was nobody like them?

 

I mean, yeah, some people do that, but it isn't common, and the fact that a town doesn't have much of that does not mean racism is the reason.

 

[Sneezyone]

Did they move from somewhere relatively comfortable (not in fear or economic trouble) to someplace where there was nobody like them?

 

I mean, yeah, some people do that, but it isn't common, and the fact that a town doesn't have much of that does not mean racism is the reason.

 

There was nowhere that was 'comfortable' for them. They moved in search of economic mobility and freedom to be 'comfortable' to a place where there was no one like them. There are few places truly 'comfortable' for me even today so I can relate. I think you're a bit naive about the origins of this diversity challenge. There was a great migration. My family members just flew the coop early. That doesn't mean I 100% agree w/CD about the solution but the origins are IMHO systemic racism. Edited October 18, 2016 by Sneezyone

[CaffeineDiary]

And you might as well add what you are doing to make sure your children experience the exact perfect degree of racial diversity so they won't be stupid mean idiots when they grow up.

 

That's twice now that you've put words in my mouth that weren't there. I didn't call anyone's kid stupid, I didn't call anyone's kid mean, and I didn't call anyone's kid an idiot.  I'd appreciate it if you'd stop doing that.

 

Thanks!

[SKL]

And actually, where I live, the county has a high % of AA people.  The suburb I live in did not exist 30 years ago; it was forest.  It is accessible to people of all races.  We had a black family living two doors down for some years, but they moved out for their own reasons.  We do have some Asian families and other ethnicities, but it's mostly white.

 

And no, I don't go outside to get my mail and look to my left and right and think, "this street would be peppered with black people were it not for the fact that the USA only exists due to the murder and torture of black people.  Hmm, I should probably go chop my arm off when I get back inside."  (And when I lived in a very mixed neighborhood, I didn't tell myself, "I'm so wonderful, look how diverse my neighbors are.")

 

I'm sure there are several reasons why black people don't live on my street right now - it's not close to a bus line or many jobs, the houses are on the expensive side for the county, and black families have stronger connections in other nearby communities.  Or maybe they just think our houses are ugly!  Whatever.  They are welcome to come and we'll treat them exactly the same as all our other neighbors.

[CaffeineDiary]

I thought this bit from the article at The Toast was pretty eloquent.

 

 

 

My wife and I struggled to make ends meet, renting overpriced apartments in sketchy neighborhoods in L.A. or Brooklyn, rather than taking the risk of relocating our mixed-race family to more affordable places. “You can get a three-bedroom house in Nebraska for $200,000!†the Internet told us gleefully. “And the people are kind! Good American values!†That was a nice idea that always felt like it didn’t apply to us. I mean, sure, it was possible, we assumed most people were kindly, and non-violent – the kind of people who would offer you a cup of coffee and a slice of cake if you stopped by their house when your car broke down. But we knew there were other kinds of people too, the kind who drag you from the back of a truck until your skin is ripped from your body. And that the risk of running into that person, even once, was far greater than any promise of affordable houses and good schools or, in the case of this blizzard, a warm hotel lobby. This is how the promise of America lands for us. It’s all good, except not for you. Every idea of how great this country is, or can be, carries with it a silent caveat, never spoken but always felt. “We are a simple country of good-hearted, upstanding people. We believe in justice and freedom. But you may be killed for being born. Even if you are an American. Even if your family has been here since the very beginning. Even if you were brought here against your will, built the country with your bare hands, overcame poverty, and lynchings and apartheid, even if you attended one the most prestigious schools in the country, even if you are a kind and loving father, who is just trying to get your dying mother safely back to your home so you can take care of her for the last months of her life, even then, you may be killed just for being born.â€

[Sneezyone]

That's completely unacceptable. I'm so glad it was addressed - when I think of 'systemic racism' that's the sort of thing that comes to mind.

 

Our state has dealt with that with the treatment of native villages and boarding schools but those policies were corrected long before most of the current population came into this state, thankfully, and the problems of unfair treatment and segregation in terms of application of the law have been fixed for two generations now.

 

Add to that the very diverse mix of people who have come in during that time (from all over the world and other states too) and we really are in a good spot in terms of attitudes on culture and ethnicity in this city. It can actually boomerang the other direction more rurally, with deep suspicion and hatred of 'outsiders', but that's still less of a problem for the way people live day to day than what happened with those discriminatory education, farming, and other policies. It's one of those cool things about being a very young and very isolated state - we have our problems but managed to avoid some of the nastiest ones that became entrenched in other parts of the country.

I don't know that you can call it settled. The settlement occurred long after the damage was done. The transfer of wealth from generation to generation was thwarted. I wouldn't expect that ground to be made up right away. It will take several generations *after* all institutional barriers come down. I'm not so sure they have.

[SKL]

There was nowhere that was 'comfortable' for them. They moved in search of economic mobility and freedom to be 'comfortable' to a place where there was no one like them. There are few places truly 'comfortable' for me even today so I can relate. I think you're a bit naive about the origins of this diversity challenge. There was a great migration. My family members just flew the coop early. That doesn't mean I 100% agree w/CD about the solution but the origins are IMHO systemic racism.

 

I am aware that the history exists and the results still exist.  My point was that that was not the reason for the demographics in every location in the USA today.  Each region has its own unique history relating to race.  The fact that your folks and many others lived their experience does not mean that some other remote place is mostly white because of racism.

[Sneezyone]

And actually, where I live, the county has a high % of AA people. The suburb I live in did not exist 30 years ago; it was forest. It is accessible to people of all races. We had a black family living two doors down for some years, but they moved out for their own reasons. We do have some Asian families and other ethnicities, but it's mostly white.

 

And no, I don't go outside to get my mail and look to my left and right and think, "this street would be peppered with black people were it not for the fact that the USA only exists due to the murder and torture of black people. Hmm, I should probably go chop my arm off when I get back inside." (And when I lived in a very mixed neighborhood, I didn't tell myself, "I'm so wonderful, look how diverse my neighbors are.")

 

I'm sure there are several reasons why black people don't live on my street right now - it's not close to a bus line or many jobs, the houses are on the expensive side for the county, and black families have stronger connections in other nearby communities. Or maybe they just think our houses are ugly! Whatever. They are welcome to come and we'll treat them exactly the same as all our other neighbors.

Or maybe because of real estate steering? NM you obv think it's all a giant cowinkidink.

[SKL]

That's twice now that you've put words in my mouth that weren't there. I didn't call anyone's kid stupid, I didn't call anyone's kid mean, and I didn't call anyone's kid an idiot.  I'd appreciate it if you'd stop doing that.

 

Thanks!

 

Well count how many times you've told us all we're ignorant and wrong.  Please answer the question I've asked twice.  I want to understand the life experience that makes you qualified to school us in these matters.

[CaffeineDiary]

Well count how many times you've told us all we're ignorant and wrong. 

 

OK, let's count.

 

[Goes and counts.]

 

The answer is "zero."

 

SKL, literally the only person in this thread to use the word "ignorant", outside of a quote, is...you.

Edited October 18, 2016 by CaffeineDiary

[SKL]

OK, let's count.

 

[Goes and counts.]

 

The answer is "zero."

 

SKL, literally the only person in this thread to use the word "ignorant", outside of a quote, is...you.

 

OK once again, for the 4th time, what is your life experience that has qualified you to school us in these matters?

 

And ps "completely unprepared for any professional career" and "unconscionable" are words you've used to describe some of us and some of our kids in this thread.  Forgive me if I shortened those to words like stupid and mean.

 

I guess your experience must not be much since you refuse to answer my very simple question.

Edited October 18, 2016 by SKL

[CaffeineDiary]

OK once again, for the 4th time, what is your life experience that has qualified you to school us in these matters?

 

I won't be engaging with you further, SKL, although I'm happy to continue civil discussion on this thread with others.

Edited October 18, 2016 by CaffeineDiary

[maize]

Or maybe because of real estate steering? NM you obv think it's all a giant cowinkidink.

This was very real in one city we lived in in CA. We moved there from out of state for my husband's job and came in knowing nothing of the town, but it turned out the town was 98% white (with most of the remaining 2% being Asian) in spite of being in a greater metropolitan region that was overall very divers. Someone involved in real estate told me that historically black people had not been permitted there. My impression was that what used to be an official policy was still practically if unofficially in place. People weren't being lynched, but housing demand was high and folks making decisions of who to sale or rent to could take their pick among offers/applicants.

Edited October 18, 2016 by maize

[heartlikealion]

I won't be engaging with you further, SKL, although I'm happy to continue civil discussion on this thread with others.

 

I'll admit, I haven't read every post in the thread. I am also curious what kind of personal experience you've had or wish to bestow upon your children to fit your idea of a good diverse background. Or what you think people should do if they live in an area where they don't have a diverse population? This could mean racially diverse or otherwise I guess.

 

I personally think the family sets the tone and the exposure to various people or groups is perhaps secondary.