I hate narrations

[silver]

I use ELTL lvl 3. The kids are supposed to narrate a fable and I'm supposed to write it down and then use part of it for dictation. 

 

My kids are not at a point where they can sit and write the same quality work of what they can orally narrate.

 

I can neither write nor type fast enough to not have to interrupt their train of thought by telling them to wait while I catch up.

 

I tried speech recognition, but that failed miserably. My kids stutter during narrations (which is a whole other issue I don't know what to do about), repeating parts of words or entire words. The speech recognition would not know what to do with it. The kids would see what it had written and just laugh and laugh. Nothing would get narrated properly.

 

I tried recording the kids and then transcribing what they've said. It is incredibly frustrating to try to understand their mumbling over the background noise of their wiggling. My son cannot seem to avoid rubbing at the microphone on my phone. I've tried holding the phone for them, but it's still incredibly frustrating to try to transcribe. I seriously think I will go insane if I have to try to transcribe one more recording from my phone of their narrations.

 

I'm at a loss for what to do here. This is their writing for school--I can't just drop it. I love ELTL, but this part of it is driving me crazy to the point where I'm debating switching to a curriculum that doesn't require this. I need suggestions. How can I make this part of our school manageable? If there isn't a solution, what curriculum is there that is like ELTL but tackles the transition from only oral narrations to only written narrations in a way that doesn't require me to transcribe?

[Another Lynn]

I hate narrations too, mainly because I'm so impatient. You've persevered much better than I have. I don't know how many ELTL has them do, but basically I would have them do a couple oral and a couple written each week. The written ones will gradually improve and the oral ones will let them keep practicing at a higher level. Just use something else for dictation. Voila, no more transcribing.

[KeriJ]

What Lynn said. 😊

 

One thing I have done was to just wait until later to start written narrations. Around 4th grade or so, I just have them write a few sentences on their own. Then I gradually bump it up as they seem ready.

[Miss Tick]

Ours are short, but I have them pause at the end of each sentence to let me catch up. It slows them down, but it also helps them hear where sentences end, and encourages them not to narrate in the form of one, long run-on sentence. It is also good practice for when they take over the writing. While they are waiting i ask them to think up the next sentence and try it out in their head so they are ready when I am.

[stutterfish]

We just stuck to oral narrations, for ages. If I did transcribe any narrations I used prompts to keep the child on track (I don't care if that's considered an incorrect method for narrations, it was what my child needed.)

 

Oral narrations, plus the copywork and grammar was plenty to do. Also, because my daughter really struggled with narrations, I gave her modelling clay, so she could 'act out' the story, while narrating. It made a huge difference. 

 

Have you joined the yahoo group for ELTL? It's worth asking about it on there. You'll find folks use the material in different ways - there are no hard and fast rules - and the author actually encourages a relaxed approach, adapting to whatever suits your family. My daughter did ELTL several years below her grade, some parts we skipped, some we changed out. It suited us at the time and then we moved on to something else. Maybe you're just overthinking it?   :)

Edited October 8, 2016 by stutterfish

[Farrar]

Just don't write them down?

 

My kids froze up the minute I started writing or typing ANYTHING they said. It was always a disaster. I don't have any of them really recorded. I don't feel like anyone suffered from it. I mean, it would have been nice to use and be able to point to for improvement, but overall, not the primary point.

[wendyroo]

I use ELTL lvl 3. The kids are supposed to narrate a fable and I'm supposed to write it down and then use part of it for dictation. 

 

My kids are not at a point where they can sit and write the same quality work of what they can orally narrate.

 

I can neither write nor type fast enough to not have to interrupt their train of thought by telling them to wait while I catch up.

 

I tried speech recognition, but that failed miserably. My kids stutter during narrations (which is a whole other issue I don't know what to do about), repeating parts of words or entire words. The speech recognition would not know what to do with it. The kids would see what it had written and just laugh and laugh. Nothing would get narrated properly.

 

I tried recording the kids and then transcribing what they've said. It is incredibly frustrating to try to understand their mumbling over the background noise of their wiggling. My son cannot seem to avoid rubbing at the microphone on my phone. I've tried holding the phone for them, but it's still incredibly frustrating to try to transcribe. I seriously think I will go insane if I have to try to transcribe one more recording from my phone of their narrations.

 

I'm at a loss for what to do here. This is their writing for school--I can't just drop it. I love ELTL, but this part of it is driving me crazy to the point where I'm debating switching to a curriculum that doesn't require this. I need suggestions. How can I make this part of our school manageable? If there isn't a solution, what curriculum is there that is like ELTL but tackles the transition from only oral narrations to only written narrations in a way that doesn't require me to transcribe?

 

I don't worry about interrupting their train of thought.  My goal is not a narration that is stream of consciousness, my goal is well thought out and composed sentences.

 

Therefore, I initially treat each of their narrated sentences (or sometimes a couple short sentences at a time) as rough drafts.  They mumble and stumble and pause as they think about what they want to say.  Then, if the gist of the sentence seems on track, I tell them to clean it up and say it clearly.  Sometimes even that one is rough around the edges, so I have them try it again.  Once they are able to say it slowly and clearly then I write it down for them.

 

Narrations certainly take longer this way, but they are less stressful for us all and we end up with a more polished result.

 

Wendy

[silver]

Thanks for all the suggestions. One reason I have been transcribing their narrations is to sit with them and talk about ways to improve the narration.

 

I think I'll try having them give me one sentence at a time and see if it distracts them too much.

[Squirkle]

We are only two thirds through Level 2 but we don't do written narrations in ELTL yet. I ask them to give an oral narration, with prompts usually, from that lesson's literature reading (we dropped the fables after we all got sick of them in Level 1). Which is probably more in line with the schedule set out in WWE, which I find also helps comprehension. I do this most lessons, even though ELTL only calls for narration every two weeks (every sixth lesson) as my kids needed more practice at narration. I'm looking for GOOD sentences (and hopefully factual accuracy) from these narrations and that's all.

 

For dictation we use the copywork selections for that lesson instead, since my two are older and don't really need too much penmanship practice now. I write the selection on a whiteboard in the morning and give time for it to be studied, reminding them to focus on spelling rules used and why punctuation is where it is. I cover or turn round the whiteboard during dictation. Afterwards I'll uncover it and , if they have any mistakes we review why the original has those spelling/punctuation (rather than why their version was wrong) so they can make corrections.

 

We are beginning to do some written narrations in other subjects (History/Science) this year. Once they are going well I may transition the Literature narrations in this way too. Twice a week after we do our reading on a subject I will ask the kids to tell me everything they have learnt about it, while I write what they say on the whiteboard as a word cloud. For example we read the SOTW chapter on St. Augustine and afterwards they tell me- "He was a Monk" "Pope Gregory sent him to Britain" "He told the Anglo-Saxons all about God" Then I ask them to put together a sentence using as many of those facts as they can, so we got "Pope Gregory sent a monk named St. Augustine to Britain, to tell the Anglo-Saxons about God." I write that final sentence down and the kids copy it into their notebooks. I'm hoping that by the end of the year they will be able to take notes from the reading themselves, which they can use to construct sentences for their notebooks, without needing the in between steps.

[maize]

I'd also pick something else for dictation.

 

Curriculum is your tool not your master. If some piece of the tool is not working well for your family, you can drop it.

Edited October 9, 2016 by maize

[UCF612]

We do ELTL and Wayfarers. I've never written their narration of the fables down. I have them narrate orally (and despise listening to them because of all the stuttering and bouncing but I think it is good practice for public speaking eventually). Then for writing I have them do a written narration on history or science. They keep a notebook, illustrate and then write a paragraph on whatever topic interested them that day. I guide my youngest (2nd) in his writing, helping him to create a cohesive paragraph. My oldest (4th) has a good handle on writing so he does his own. My oldest also does Writing & Rhetoric for additional writing practice (youngest will start that in 3rd). As the year progresses I'll probably work on writing longer "research" type papers with my oldest, expanding what he currently produces. My youngest needs a ton of hand holding when it comes to anything writing related.

 

That's just what works for us. Probably isn't the right way but it's our way!

Edited October 9, 2016 by UCF612

[UCF612]

I just went and read the other replies to this post. Love some of these ideas and an going to implement them!

[stutterfish]

Thanks for all the suggestions. One reason I have been transcribing their narrations is to sit with them and talk about ways to improve the narration.

 

I think I'll try having them give me one sentence at a time and see if it distracts them too much.

That might be what you want from narrations, but I'm not not sure that ties up with the purpose of the narration exercises in eltl. Ime narrations improve simply with practice, doing them orally and often and not labouring over them. A few minutes, gently guiding my kids through their recollection of the story/text. If we had to write them down and analyse them in any detail, it would absolutely kill the joy for my kids. Light touch :) (fwiw, my Dd went from being unable to narrate at all, to being able to narrate fairly fluently, using eltl. It's definitely a little-and-often curriculum, deceptively gentle :) ) Edited October 9, 2016 by stutterfish

[silver]

One of my kids is in 4th. He is a reluctant writer, with tears over other curriculum that we've tried. He will do the oral narrations, and talk about them, followed by my dictating some of it to him. For what it's worth, the long copywork passages in level 3 make him cry. Writing is so burdensome for him that I can't ask him to start doing it for science or history without risking him growing to hate those subjects.

 

He starts almost every sentence with "and then" (and will do this written or oral). That is a major reason why I work with him on it rather than just let it go without comment.

 

He gets writers block whenever we've tried written narrations. Print, typing, or cursive, it is agony to him to write anything that he has come up with that is more than a few sentences. He does much better orally in terms of the quality of the sentences, but still needs help with cleaning it up.

 

I don't know how to teach him to write. I look at what grade level curriculum thinks he should be able to do, and he is far behind. I know I'm supposed to teach him where he's at, not some imaginary standard, and that's what I'm trying to do. But I don't know how to help him improve. I go back and forth, fretting that his issue is that I've just been too slack in writing with him vs thinking that he's just not there developmentally.

[Ausmumof3]

One of my kids is in 4th. He is a reluctant writer, with tears over other curriculum that we've tried. He will do the oral narrations, and talk about them, followed by my dictating some of it to him. For what it's worth, the long copywork passages in level 3 make him cry. Writing is so burdensome for him that I can't ask him to start doing it for science or history without risking him growing to hate those subjects.

 

He starts almost every sentence with "and then" (and will do this written or oral). That is a major reason why I work with him on it rather than just let it go without comment.

 

He gets writers block whenever we've tried written narrations. Print, typing, or cursive, it is agony to him to write anything that he has come up with that is more than a few sentences. He does much better orally in terms of the quality of the sentences, but still needs help with cleaning it up.

 

I don't know how to teach him to write. I look at what grade level curriculum thinks he should be able to do, and he is far behind. I know I'm supposed to teach him where he's at, not some imaginary standard, and that's what I'm trying to do. But I don't know how to help him improve. I go back and forth, fretting that his issue is that I've just been too slack in writing with him vs thinking that he's just not there developmentally.

I don't have advice but I also have a grade 4 boy who's writing looks nothing like the curriculum guidelines. I'm hoping at some point things will improve.

[Bics]

I am learning, too, and no expert, but what is working for us to transition a child is this:

I do interrupt her. I am typing as she dictates, but of course she gets ahead of me. I say "wait." She stops until I say "go ahead" or "ok." Yes, sometimes she loses her train of thought, but she leans over and rereads the screen now and picks up the thread of her thoughts. Now, last year when we started I was handwriting, with the intention of typing later. It was so sloppy in my haste I had to read it to her-which also worked--she would ask me to read the last sentence to get her flow back. There were tons of sentences beginning with "and then" but I chose to record what she said, incorrect or correct. Zero of those ever were typed, so this year I type it as she dictates. We do one a week on a good week. She has already begun telling me to go back, take that out, change this word to a different word, etc. When that started, I was so encouraged that the method might actually work! Honestly, me having to stop her so often to catch up is what created that situation. So go ahead and be human! You aren't trained in shorthand and can't keep up! So what? They will never write as fast as they can think or talk either, and maybe you are saving them from hating to write their own narrations later because born of that frustration. They will have picked up the habit of stopping often and picking back up. I hope that helps your situation, too.

[Bics]

I tapped that out on my phone-so many typos-I-yi-yi! Sorry:)

[stutterfish]

If no learning difficulties are involved, I'd just keep going with oral narration. My dd didn't transition to written narrations till she was 11/12. I wouldn't even worry about all the 'and then's right now. Just read and narrate.

 

I'd keep copywork short. A nicely written sentence daily would do.

 

Slackness, developmental readiness and learning issues could all be a cause of less than stellar narrations.

 

Re slackness, just have him narrate and do short copywork daily. Build the habit of retelling, and of writing. Don't worry yet about putting those two things together.

 

Readiness ? Let him narrate shorter pieces of text - a paragraph or a page, instead of a chapter. Let him narrate playfully - build the battle out of Lego, draw and caption a picture, put on a play.

 

Learning issues - I don't know much about these at all. But the ladies on the learning issues board are really great if that's a direction you think you'd like to look.

Yes, this! :)

 

It's not a race. If I'd tried to get my kids to fit with everyone else's schedule we would have had tears every. single. day.

 

Sometimes I find it helps to step back, reassess why I am homeschooling, write down what I think is important (in terms of lifelong learning) for my kids. It's easy to get trapped in the daily struggles and lose the bigger picture:) .

 

Good luck.

[silver]

 

 

I know it's not a race. I'm trying to work with him where he's at. That's why he doesn't narrate for Science and History. That's why I don't make him handwrite narrations without giving it orally. One of the reasons I see to homeschool is to help him with the weak areas rather than letting him falter. I make him continue copywork to build writing stamina without also having to come up with the words. I'm trying to help him transition from oral to written narrations, but the method of ELTL isn't working (parent writes the oral narration down and dictates part of it back). It's not working because of me. He's fine with the process, but I can't stand transcribing.

[Bluegoat]

It might be that the program isn't a good fit.  My dd11 is a good writer now (though lazy at times) but when we tried WWE 3, she had a hard time with the long copywork and dictations, and even the oral narration, and she found it incredibly boring.  I'm not sure that approach which I think is similar to ELTL is a good fit for a lot of kids.

 

I would ditch the writing down of narrations and find something else for dictation, at the least.  Grade 3 is around the earliest I would really begin transition to written narration and I would not hesitate to wait another year or two for some kids. 

 

But another option besides modifying the program you are using might be to find a different one. 

[silver]

I'm open to suggestions of a writing program that would be a good fit for my son. He needs hand holding. He needs specific topics/prompts for writing (although being told to "just write" works for my daughter, it does not work for my son). He does not like creative writing. If he's going to write instead of doing the work orally, he needs help with the planning/setup. He's not ready for first outlining and then writing from the outline. 

 

I like the grammar portion of ELTL, as do both of my children. We both like the literature, poems, and picture study included in the program. My kids even love the dictionary work that is included in level 3. He doesn't mind oral narrations. He doesn't mind sitting with me to go over what he wrote and improve it. He doesn't mind the dictation. Our issues are the long copywork (which I'm inclined to keep partly because of how little actual writing he does with his other coursework) and the transition to written narrations (mainly that we're supposed to do it by having me do the writing at first). I'd be willing to drop the copywork, working on the narrations, and dictation of narration if I could replace it with something that will work for him and have him actually write. We have no reason to suspect learning difficulties, so he really does need to work on physically writing to build up stamina for it. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

You might like IEW. 

 

[silver]

I've looked at IEW, but I can't do a curriculum where I have to watch hours of video to know how to teach it. I don't have the attention span or time for that.

[kirstenhill]

I've looked at IEW, but I can't do a curriculum where I have to watch hours of video to know how to teach it. I don't have the attention span or time for that.

I really think you can use IEW effectively without the TWSS (instructor DVDs). I have a love-hate relationship with IEW. My DD is taking an in-person class that uses IEW because I couldn't find a non-IEW class for her and we really wanted to outsource to an in person option. The teacher follows it to the letter, so points are deducted if every paragraph doesn't have every single dress-up, if she uses "said", if she forgets to underline a dress-up, etc. It gets to be a lot to keep track of. She likes the teacher, so at least that makes the class ok even if it seems like she is getting marked down on her assignments over persnickety details.

 

On the other hand I bought the SWI A DVDs for my 4th grade reluctant writer DS, and it has been great. He watches the DVDs, writes outlines, and then writes paragraphs. Whole paragraphs without complaining....it's like a miracle. I listened to a one hour overview lecture that you can download on the IEW website, but this isn't rocket science...I can get the basic idea without 9 hours of DVD instruction for me. ;-) Since I am correcting DS's paragraphs, I can encourage him to use the dress ups to vary his writing while not getting hung up on it to too great of a degree.

 

I don't think I will use IEW for DS from here on out, but I think a year of it is perfect to get him to see that writing isn't as horrible as he was making it out to be.

[silver]

On the other hand I bought the SWI A DVDs for my 4th grade reluctant writer DS, and it has been great. He watches the DVDs, writes outlines, and then writes paragraphs. Whole paragraphs without complaining....it's like a miracle. I listened to a one hour overview lecture that you can download on the IEW website, but this isn't rocket science...I can get the basic idea without 9 hours of DVD instruction for me. ;-) Since I am correcting DS's paragraphs, I can encourage him to use the dress ups to vary his writing while not getting hung up on it to too great of a degree.

 

I don't think I will use IEW for DS from here on out, but I think a year of it is perfect to get him to see that writing isn't as horrible as he was making it out to be.

 

So this is the only thing you bought for your son? 

http://iew.com/shop/products/student-writing-intensive-level

 

Do they have anything that doesn't involve DVDs for the student to watch? My computer doesn't actually have a DVD player. I could make it work if I can't find anything better, but it would be an extra hassle. 

[kirstenhill]

So this is the only thing you bought for your son? 

http://iew.com/shop/products/student-writing-intensive-level

 

Do they have anything that doesn't involve DVDs for the student to watch? My computer doesn't actually have a DVD player. I could make it work if I can't find anything better, but it would be an extra hassle. 

 

Yes, that is what we bought.  I found the DVDs used and then bought the PDF download of the student book, so I paid much less than the sticker price.  I have my DS watch on the TV.  He sits back on the couch with a clipboard to do the writing that is called for in the DVD.

 

They do have Theme books that don't have a DVD.  I think that might be slightly harder to do on your own if you aren't familiar with the method. The lectures are informative and interesting for DS9, and DS7 listens for fun!  I am only "listening in" on parts of the DVD and that is enough for me to get the idea.  I feel like I could easily teach a theme book after this if we wanted to do one.