not allowing reading that's above reading level?

[caedmyn]

My kids are doing the Book-it program. 7 yo choose Billy and Blaze books to read out loud to earn his pizza certificate. They are maybe a 3rd grade reading level...I think he reads at about a beginning 2nd grade level. I know Barton says not to have them read books that are above their reading level. We are not using Barton for dyslexia remediation, but should I make him choose something else? I tried to encourage him to pick something that's at his reading level but he insisted on these. It doesn't frustrate him to read 2-3 pages a day of them, but he does guess some. But then he guesses some no matter what he reads...he uses context to predict what he thinks should come next instead of really looking at the words at times.

[Daria]

On level or below level reading is what grows kids skills the fastest. So, if I was assigning a book, I'd assign one on or below.

 

But reading skills also grow because of volume. Kids who read more words, even in imperfectly matched texts, read better than kids who read rarely. If he's enjoying the books, and is motivated to read them for pleasure then I'd keep them and also make sure he has some time when he's reading something on level elsewhere in his schedule.

[IsabelC]

If you are wanting to discourage his habit of guessing unfamiliar words, could you try sitting with him while he reads the more difficult books out loud, and just telling him the words he isn't able to decode? And then encourage him to read less challenging books if he's practising on his own?

[PeterPan]

Billy and Blaze by C. W. Anderson | Scholastic.com

 

Scholastic book wizard says Lexile 860, DRA 18, and a grade equivalent of 4.4.  

 

Are you using Barton?  He should be before Barton 4 (per her standards) at least before trying these.  My ds *can* read that, but I probably wouldn't.  The sentence structure is pretty complex and he would fatigue.  His decoding right now is higher than your ds'.

 

I think in this situation I would admire his determination, read them aloud with him, and get him more books on horses at a lower reading level to let him read for Book It.

[Daria]

Billy and Blaze by C. W. Anderson | Scholastic.com

 

Scholastic book wizard says Lexile 860, DRA 18, and a grade equivalent of 4.4.  

 

Are you using Barton?  He should be before Barton 4 (per her standards) at least before trying these.  My ds *can* read that, but I probably wouldn't.  The sentence structure is pretty complex and he would fatigue.  His decoding right now is higher than your ds'.

 

I think in this situation I would admire his determination, read them aloud with him, and get him more books on horses at a lower reading level to let him read for Book It.

 

Those numbers just go to show how hard it is to judge a book as being on a certain level.  DRA 18 is end of first/very early second.  Lexile 860 is 5th - 8th grade.

[PeterPan]

Those numbers just go to show how hard it is to judge a book as being on a certain level.  DRA 18 is end of first/very early second.  Lexile 860 is 5th - 8th grade.

 

:lol:  That's hilarious!  I didn't know what DRA was, lol.  

 

Is it possible the DRA is looking at more than the decoding level?  The Billy/Blaze books are kind of unique because they have complex sentence structure and decoding in the set-up of a picture book (single sentence to a page).  If DRA looks at overall reading set-up, the structure of the book might matter, dunno.

Edited October 4, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[caedmyn]

Sheesh. Well anyway, they're above his reading level. I put some I Can Read level 1 books on hold at the library and hopefully he'll find a few of those that he wants to read. He doesn't want to read any of the many books we have that are at his reading level. He's pretty determined to read "harder" books...big improvement over 6 months ago when he'd say that he couldn't read!

[Daria]

:lol:  That's hilarious!  I didn't know what DRA was, lol.  

 

Is it possible the DRA is looking at more than the decoding level?  The Billy/Blaze books are kind of unique because they have complex sentence structure and decoding in the set-up of a picture book (single sentence to a page).  If DRA looks at overall reading set-up, the structure of the book might matter, dunno.

 

I love the DRA, because it really looks at how hard a book is to read.  

 

DRA has a long list of criteria it uses, from how long the sentences are, to how closely the pictures match the text (e.g. the word hippopotamus is much easier to read on a page wth a picture of hippopotamus!), to what kind of comprehension skills a kid needs to be successful (so a book with more than one problem/solution, will be judged harder than one with just one;  a book set in the present in a setting familiar to most kids will be judged easier than a piece of historical fiction).  It then give a level that represents the earliest point at which a student would have the skills to read it fluently, and to figure out 90%+ of the words.  So a book that has short text on each page, and that uses long words but in ways that allow kids to use context and pictures, is going to be considered easier than a book that uses similar sentence structures and word lengths, but doesn't have the context and picture support.  DRA scores are usually 2 digits, with the first digit being the grade, and the second being the month.  So 18 is first grade, month eight (so end of the year).

 

Lexile looks at the length of sentences, and the variety of words.  You dump the text into a computer, and it counts up the words in the sentences, and the percentage of words that are repeats, and comes up with a number.  It's useful, because it's super fast and you can Lexile anything, but it's not really useful because it doesn't take into account many of the things that make a text easy or hard to understand. 

[PeterPan]

I love the DRA, because it really looks at how hard a book is to read.  

 

DRA has a long list of criteria it uses, from how long the sentences are, to how closely the pictures match the text (e.g. the word hippopotamus is much easier to read on a page wth a picture of hippopotamus!), to what kind of comprehension skills a kid needs to be successful (so a book with more than one problem/solution, will be judged harder than one with just one;  a book set in the present in a setting familiar to most kids will be judged easier than a piece of historical fiction).  It then give a level that represents the earliest point at which a student would have the skills to read it fluently, and to figure out 90%+ of the words.  So a book that has short text on each page, and that uses long words but in ways that allow kids to use context and pictures, is going to be considered easier than a book that uses similar sentence structures and word lengths, but doesn't have the context and picture support.  DRA scores are usually 2 digits, with the first digit being the grade, and the second being the month.  So 18 is first grade, month eight (so end of the year).

 

Lexile looks at the length of sentences, and the variety of words.  You dump the text into a computer, and it counts up the words in the sentences, and the percentage of words that are repeats, and comes up with a number.  It's useful, because it's super fast and you can Lexile anything, but it's not really useful because it doesn't take into account many of the things that make a text easy or hard to understand. 

 

Thanks, that's an incredibly helpful explanation!  And just in general, yes DRA makes a lot of sense.  And if your dyslexic is ready to stretch a bit, then DRA makes sense as a way to say ok, take off, fly.  But if you're trying to gauge decoding level ALONE, to control the decoding for a dyslexic who needs to remain in controlled readers, then DRA could launch him into stuff he's not ready for.  And conversely, with someone like my ds (dyslexic but ready to read beyond controlled readers), DRA could be a fabulous way to pick books but keep it from being overwhelming.

[Daria]

Thanks, that's an incredibly helpful explanation!  And just in general, yes DRA makes a lot of sense.  And if your dyslexic is ready to stretch a bit, then DRA makes sense as a way to say ok, take off, fly.  But if you're trying to gauge decoding level ALONE, to control the decoding for a dyslexic who needs to remain in controlled readers, then DRA could launch him into stuff he's not ready for.  And conversely, with someone like my ds (dyslexic but ready to read beyond controlled readers), DRA could be a fabulous way to pick books but keep it from being overwhelming.

 

I think that DRA, and F&P levels which work essentially the same way, do a much better job for kids with dyslexia, than Lexiles or the system that Accelerated Reader uses.

 

But yes, if you are looking for text that is heavily controlled for phonetic elements, then the DRA isn't going to help, and neither are any of the other 4, as all of them are designed to work with trade books, not books written specifically to be decodable.  

 

Whether kids with dyslexia need to be limited to decodable books is something we could argue separately, but when a kid is ready to make a foray into books that are not highly phonetically decodable, the DRA is a pretty good way to judge which books would be easiest to try.  

 

To give you a sense, Lexile rates Billy and Blaze at 860, and Harry Potter at 880, which would be a few weeks apart in "grade level".  DRA expects that kids will be ready to read HP a smidge more than 3 years after Billy and Blaze.  

[PeterPan]

I didn't know there was a debate over using phonetically controlled readers for dyslexia, hmm...  My ds isn't typical anyway.  He has a 99th percentile vocabulary, so his ability to piece together text, even without pictures, FAR outspeeds his ability to decode.  He reads and answers questions on material multiple grades above his level to decode.  Thing is, even with that *ability* to "read" he was choosing NOT to read.  What we're doing now is using motivators and lots of choice.  So we might tell him he has to read but not tell him when he has to stop.  And we provide him with step readers and Barton readers and regular books.  

 

It's also clear he's using his skills to read along when people read to him.  Someone read him a really complex Mickey joins the Foreign Legion comic book this weekend, and he literally just picked it up and started reading when the person stopped.  

 

Obviously I'd LIKE to see him reading 1-2 hours a day for pleasure and finding it pleasurable!  But that's really as far as we've gotten, these brief, incentivized readings with lots of access and choice. I think DRA will be a strong tool for me to find him more options and keep things flowing.  It's actually sort of tricky.  The Billy and Blaze books make a lot of sense, because the wide spacing and pictures really do make it more accessible.  I requested several from the library.  I thought comics would work, and he dabbles in them.

 

Is it actually REALISTIC to think a dyslexic dc would get up to 1-2 hours a day the way a more typical child who enjoys reading would?  

[maize]

I didn't know there was a debate over using phonetically controlled readers for dyslexia, hmm... My ds isn't typical anyway. He has a 99th percentile vocabulary, so his ability to piece together text, even without pictures, FAR outspeeds his ability to decode. He reads and answers questions on material multiple grades above his level to decode. Thing is, even with that *ability* to "read" he was choosing NOT to read. What we're doing now is using motivators and lots of choice. So we might tell him he has to read but not tell him when he has to stop. And we provide him with step readers and Barton readers and regular books.

 

It's also clear he's using his skills to read along when people read to him. Someone read him a really complex Mickey joins the Foreign Legion comic book this weekend, and he literally just picked it up and started reading when the person stopped.

 

Obviously I'd LIKE to see him reading 1-2 hours a day for pleasure and finding it pleasurable! But that's really as far as we've gotten, these brief, incentivized readings with lots of access and choice. I think DRA will be a strong tool for me to find him more options and keep things flowing. It's actually sort of tricky. The Billy and Blaze books make a lot of sense, because the wide spacing and pictures really do make it more accessible. I requested several from the library. I thought comics would work, and he dabbles in them.

 

Is it actually REALISTIC to think a dyslexic dc would get up to 1-2 hours a day the way a more typical child who enjoys reading would?

I've known at least one dyslexic kid who did, her craving for stories was so strong that it was worth the effort to read.

[Daria]

I didn't know there was a debate over using phonetically controlled readers for dyslexia, hmm...  My ds isn't typical anyway.  He has a 99th percentile vocabulary, so his ability to piece together text, even without pictures, FAR outspeeds his ability to decode.  He reads and answers questions on material multiple grades above his level to decode.  Thing is, even with that *ability* to "read" he was choosing NOT to read.  What we're doing now is using motivators and lots of choice.  So we might tell him he has to read but not tell him when he has to stop.  And we provide him with step readers and Barton readers and regular books.  

 

It's also clear he's using his skills to read along when people read to him.  Someone read him a really complex Mickey joins the Foreign Legion comic book this weekend, and he literally just picked it up and started reading when the person stopped.  

 

Obviously I'd LIKE to see him reading 1-2 hours a day for pleasure and finding it pleasurable!  But that's really as far as we've gotten, these brief, incentivized readings with lots of access and choice. I think DRA will be a strong tool for me to find him more options and keep things flowing.  It's actually sort of tricky.  The Billy and Blaze books make a lot of sense, because the wide spacing and pictures really do make it more accessible.  I requested several from the library.  I thought comics would work, and he dabbles in them.

 

Is it actually REALISTIC to think a dyslexic dc would get up to 1-2 hours a day the way a more typical child who enjoys reading would?  

 

I think there's definitely a place for phonetically controlled readers, what I was referring to as controversial is the idea that kids with dyslexia should be limited to phonetically controlled readers at certain points of their development.  In my opinion, kids benefit from opportunities to practice moving between different cueing systems, and integrating lots of different kinds of cues, all along.  For kids in brick and mortar schools, my feeling is that best practice is to have full participation in grade level literacy, with whatever accommodations they need for access, whether that's Snap and Read on an iPad, or modified texts on Tarheelreader, or partner reading or whatever, plus significant amounts of time working on highly structured phonics in very small group settings.  

 

As far as whether it's realistic for a kid who takes longer to acquire reading skills to love reading, I would say "sort of".  There are absolutely kids who have dyslexia, or other challenges with print, who go on to become avid readers, even if they continue to have issues with reading speed.  However, I think that there are also plenty of bright kids with solid reading skills who don't end up spending hours reading.  If having a kid who reads for pleasure is a long term goal, then having opportunities for kids to explore books that speak to them, without pressure to finish if they're overwhelmed, needs to be a part of that.  Because phonetically controlled text is just not engaging enough for anyone to fall in love with. 

[caedmyn]

Well I got him a few I Can Read level 1 books from the library, but I don't think they're much less difficult than the Billy and Blaze ones. I wish I could find more books like Frog and Toad or Little Bear, that are mostly one syllable words. Or Pathway Readers...all that repetition is really helpful when a kid needs to read words a bunch of times before they stick.

[geodob]

This could have long term implications? Where he could become an avid reader?

Requiring frequent visits to the library, and buying lots of books.

 

Reading books above his level, will no doubt provide a motivation to understand new words.

 

 

[displace]

I kept DS to phonetic reading until his fatigue lessened and ability to read in one setting increased. This started with public school free reading time, much different for DS as he doesn't have dyslexia accommodations at school. I would send books I knew he could read (next in a series). Then he would come home having read a whole book faster than I thought. I now let him read what he wants after looking first. I'm sure he could word attack most new words. The font size and sheer volume of text in books beyond early chapter readers keeps him at bay.

 

I did not know much difference from DRA and Lexile but now that I know I'll stop using Lexile! I read somewhere hat once they have the drive and desire to read above level, let them, within reason. If they are a big guesser I'd probably make the selections read aloud to monitor corrections.

[shawthorne44]

Well I got him a few I Can Read level 1 books from the library, but I don't think they're much less difficult than the Billy and Blaze ones. I wish I could find more books like Frog and Toad or Little Bear, that are mostly one syllable words. Or Pathway Readers...all that repetition is really helpful when a kid needs to read words a bunch of times before they stick.

 

Yes, it seems that the different brands define the levels totally different.  One idea is to find a book that seems about right, and then stick with that brand since they seem to be consistent within the brand.  We like the Viking books.