brownie Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Middle DS is 8th grade and PG. He has me upset and I don't know who to ask. Has anyone else got a kid who underperforms in order to NOT be the center of attention and NOT be different from his friends, none of whom have qualified gifted, though bright. He will throw tests for qualifying for competitions so as to not be "on stage". It's never been on anything important really - yet - until now. However, his only interest that even approaches a passion is music and today I received an email that there will be tryouts for seating in the new orchestra group he is in. I told him and when he said he already knew, I asked why I haven't heard him practicing. He promised if I paid for this group and the necessary private lessons from the director, he would practice. His 1st response was that the teacher already told him he will get 1st chair (uhm...blind audition so no guarantee). I responded that then he should excel and improve his chances of moving up to the next level orchestra. He yelled at me that it's not just about how well he does...he's not moving up and leaving his friends or he will quit. I'm pretty shaken that he got upset with me. It's not like him. To me the big issue is that he coasts through everything and is never really challenged. He has no frustration tolerance as a result. An average kid and even his older HG brother with executive functioning issues are constantly being pushed by life itself but nothing ever stretches this kid and he won't push himself. His focus is on blending in. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 One reason why we pulled DD was that we could see her starting to do that as early as kindergarten. Her teacher actually saw it as a positive. And in some ways, it's a sign of empathy. DD especially will pull back if she recognizes that it's really important to a peer-or a peer's parent-that the peer excel. She has been known to not even really get involved or pursue something because "it's more important to them than to me". So far, what has combatted it best is to put her in situations where she doesn't succeed easily. As long as she has some areas where she's "average" in a group and others get to excel, she has an easier time accepting that, yes, it's OK to excel. For her, that usually means sports of some type, because she's not physically gifted. I will say that one reason why she has loved the summer programs she's done the last 2 years is that "I'm not everything girl". It's like she can relax when she can just be herself without having to worry about hurting others by always being the best. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Blending in IS a challenge at that age and with those kinds of gifts. He obviously has the social intelligence to be aware of how difference is perceived. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I am not PG but I did this as a kid (and still do in some situations). To many children, friends are more important than academic or musical success. Vastly outperforming other kids makes them not like you. They may admire you, or think you're awesome, or be jealous of you, but you are not compatriots in the same way. Underperforming seems like the only way to keep those relationships. Here is what I'd do, *maybe*, if I could: I'd try to find a local youth symphony (large cities often have them) or something, where the point is not friends but the art itself, and the competition. Then I'd let him underperform to stay with his friends in one situation, but push excellence in the other, Maybe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 .... I responded that then he should excel and improve his chances of moving up to the next level orchestra. He yelled at me that it's not just about how well he does...he's not moving up and leaving his friends or he will quit. ... It's ok if he does orchestra as a "hanging with my friends" activity and not a "striving for excellence" activity. If he gets bored with it, that may motivate him to up his game. But it's ok if he is just in it for the friends. ESPECIALLY in middle school. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I am not PG but I did this as a kid (and still do in some situations). To many children, friends are more important than academic or musical success. Vastly outperforming other kids makes them not like you. They may admire you, or think you're awesome, or be jealous of you, but you are not compatriots in the same way. Underperforming seems like the only way to keep those relationships. Here is what I'd do, *maybe*, if I could: I'd try to find a local youth symphony (large cities often have them) or something, where the point is not friends but the art itself, and the competition. Then I'd let him underperform to stay with his friends in one situation, but push excellence in the other, Maybe. Agreed. He is at the age where peer acceptance is frequently paramount. It is hardwired into most teens DNA. He lashed out because he probably doesn't feel like his frustrations and concerns and emotional needs are really being understood or supported. That can build up inside until a kid snaps. Find him an outlet for him to perform to his ability level without taking away his chance to interact with friends that matter to him. He is just at that age. FWIW, DH was really ahead of the game in certain areas and struggled to find his niche. He didn't like attention being drawn to himself. His mother began taking him to adult meet ups of people who were into ham radio and computers (which were NOT readily available at that time for pre-teens). He was able to excel in computers and radio and electronics and have a lot of mentors that he looked up to and wanted to impress. He branch out into a lot of other things that eventually led to a great career but he didn't have to feel odd around his peers because he could just act average around them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 What really helps: put him in a challenging environment where someone will set the bar high and not allow him to coast. My son with similar issues has music teachers who are rigorous and strict and sports coaches who encourage him to get better at his skills every single day. In your son's case, is it possible that he take lessons with a music teacher who has a requirement regarding practice hours and who will hold him accountable? That would make him practice more frequently. I too think that you could put him in a symphony or orchestra that is not part of his school in addition to keeping him on the school orchestra. He can underperform as much as he wants in the school orchestra and have fun with friends! Social acceptance is very important at his age and if you can provide a more challenging opportunity outside school, it is a win-win situation for you both :) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I am not PG but I did this as a kid (and still do in some situations). To many children, friends are more important than academic or musical success. Vastly outperforming other kids makes them not like you. They may admire you, or think you're awesome, or be jealous of you, but you are not compatriots in the same way. Underperforming seems like the only way to keep those relationships. Here is what I'd do, *maybe*, if I could: I'd try to find a local youth symphony (large cities often have them) or something, where the point is not friends but the art itself, and the competition. Then I'd let him underperform to stay with his friends in one situation, but push excellence in the other, Maybe. For me it went beyond wanting friends. It was sometimes survival. This is a huge reason I homeschool. I didn't want this for my kids. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 I think I need to email the music teacher and ask for some support getting him to practice. He has only been with him 2 months and I warned the teacher that he would coast. He has only been to TWO orchestra practices and only has 1 friend there that I know of from before it started. This was supposed to be the competitive community activity where he would be challenged, not coast. I was actually surprised they put him in the lower group but thought it might be political since he is new. Now I'm sure of it...if the teacher told him he was assured of 1st chair in a blind audition, it doesn't make sense and now he won't want to move up.He won't try new stuff and he's modestly gifted athletically too so he succeeds sufficiently there and/or hides so as not to stand out. He doesn't like attention or risking embarrassing himself. Risk averse is his personality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I think I need to email the music teacher and ask for some support getting him to practice. He has only been with him 2 months and I warned the teacher that he would coast. He has only been to TWO orchestra practices and only has 1 friend there that I know of from before it started. This was supposed to be the competitive community activity where he would be challenged, not coast. I was actually surprised they put him in the lower group but thought it might be political since he is new. Now I'm sure of it...if the teacher told him he was assured of 1st chair in a blind audition, it doesn't make sense and now he won't want to move up. He won't try new stuff and he's modestly gifted athletically too so he succeeds sufficiently there and/or hides so as not to stand out. He doesn't like attention or risking embarrassing himself. Risk averse is his personality. Sometimes I reward my kids for doing stuff like practicing. At that age I didn't practice either because I didn't see the point. Stuff came easily, and I got by without practicing. So in part it could be he isn't being challenged and there is no reward he can fathom for practicing. But then you have to consider if this is just something that is more important to you than him. Sometimes I've let go of the fact my kids weren't interested in an opportunity (to the extent I was). It kills me when this happens because I didn't have many opportunities growing up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 We're another family who chose homeschooling to prevent this. I did it too, and it didn't serve me well when I went to college and finally had to work hard at math. It's also why we go basically year round, everything to mastery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 It is a relief to read that my kid is not the ONLY kid with this concern. I was reading an article from CTY about gifted kids yesterday and it mentioned how they all have this passion for learning, and I can't say my middle child does. This is why I pulled him out initially after kindergarten...that and not wanting to accelerate him with older kids. I did put him back in though for 7th grade at our highly competitive, intense public school. I am only homeschooling one child anymore but I am seeing issues and if he is not willing to take advantage of what the HS has to offer so he can be like his friends, I may have to pull him out and do dual enrollment instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) However, his only interest that even approaches a passion is music and today I received an email that there will be tryouts for seating in the new orchestra group he is in. I told him and when he said he already knew, I asked why I haven't heard him practicing. He promised if I paid for this group and the necessary private lessons from the director, he would practice. His 1st response was that the teacher already told him he will get 1st chair (uhm...blind audition so no guarantee). I responded that then he should excel and improve his chances of moving up to the next level orchestra. He yelled at me that it's not just about how well he does...he's not moving up and leaving his friends or he will quit. I'm pretty shaken that he got upset with me. It's not like him. If ever I post here, it's b/c I saw a post from this board on the main page. I don't frequent this board. ;) It has been the experience of my two children (both violinists) in their numerous orchestras that despite having blind auditions, it is up to the discretion of the conductor who makes concertmaster. I know you're seeking info about under performing, but I had to comment on that. And while I understand his wanting to be with his friends, once he gets to the front of one level (and plays there a year), it is time to move up to the next level to keep him challenged. You know that, and perhaps he does too, but I hope he seeks the challenge soon. Butting out now. Edited September 23, 2016 by Angie in VA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) I think your son's approach regarding the orchestra and wanting to stay with his friends is fine. Friends are extremely important. And music can be a lifetime hobby where it has an important social aspect--for example, I have a friend who enjoys playing chamber music cello for fun, an activity that led to her meeting her husband so that it became an activity they did together to relax at home as well. By contrast, another friend who was pushed with violin and played solos with orchestras as a kid, but didn't really want that, gave it up entirely as soon as she was free of parental pushing. You may be interested in your son becoming a virtuoso musician--or even just the "best" he can be, but that may not be *his* goal with music, nor what fuels *his* passion for it. Think of it like tennis or golf... They could be enjoyed at a fun social level, or pursued to a professional level. Especially if he is was homeschooling where he doesn't didn't have tons of social contact all day every day from school, and has found a group of friends via music, the friendship aspect probably is way, way more important to him at his age and stage than the music part. I'd say be thankful for the friendships he has--or is starting to develop, even if only one other in the orchestra. Coasting through everything and not being challenged, low frustration tolerance, are other issues that I think should be addressed--but not at the cost of him losing friends in his orchestra group. I would suspect he got upset with you because he understood what you were saying to mean you don't want him to have friends--or that he is perceiving your interest in his music to be for your own gratification and sense of pride, rather than as support for him in what he wants to be achieving, or perhaps both. ETA: maybe a talk when you are both calm so that you can both try to understand each other's viewpoints and emotions about this would be helpful. eta: also risk taking sounds like something where learning with baby steps (and maybe not around friends / peers) would be a challenge in and of itself for him to work on Edited September 23, 2016 by Pen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 If ever I post here, it's b/c I saw a post from this board on the main page. I don't frequent this board. ;) It has been the experience of my two children (both violinists) in their numerous orchestras that despite having blind auditions, it is up to the discretion of the conductor who makes concertmaster. I know you're seeing info about under performing, but I had to comment on that. And while I understand his wanting to be with his friends, once he gets to the front of one level (and plays there a year), it is time to move up to the next level to keep him challenged. You know that, and perhaps he does too, but I hope he seeks the challenge soon. Butting out now. That is interesting! We are completely new to orchestra since he is a trumpet player and has only played jazz band and concert band in the past. That would explain the comment from the instructor...though I wish he hadn't made the comment! Now DS sees no reason to practice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I am not surprised by his outburst. If his only interest that even approaches a passion is music and it seems to him that you are nagging/pushing him, then the passion would become mommy's project instead. It might push him to underperform more. What does he has that he can call his own? That you have zero say in other than make sure he is not putting himself in harms way? For example my kids play recreational golf at a nearby city golf course. All I do is walk them there and back when they want to play and pay for the annual youth pass for them which is cheap but has restricted hours. My kids play an instrument. Blind auditions are not totally blind. The instructors already known who will make the cut. My kids can make the cut if they practice better and slightly longer per day but it is their call. My family policy is we do not micromanage our kids, my BIL and his wife does and that is their call because our kids and our family culture are different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 -trumpet in orchestra can be quite challenging. I would leave that to the brass coach and the conductor, those folks know how to present challenge and coach to success. On your son's remark that he doesnt want to move up because his friend would be left behind....challenge him to be a leader and motivate his friend to move up with him. He knows he cant rest, the music becomes more challenging next year. He knows he must improve to go on with his age mates, not rest on his laurels. He will improve anyway, just from being there and listening. Also somewhat motivating is when a younger sib will be auditioning for same ensemble. 8th is a good year for him to map out his path. What is the plan? Are his friends going to get training and an education and move on? Might be worth it to find a good summer program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 (edited) That is interesting! We are completely new to orchestra since he is a trumpet player and has only played jazz band and concert band in the past. That would explain the comment from the instructor...though I wish he hadn't made the comment! Now DS sees no reason to practice. Wow, first time in an orchestra and he's CM? That's great! And I'm in awe of anyone who can look at little black dots on lined paper and make beautiful sounds come out of a piece of wood or metal! More so for those who can play more than one instrument! Edited September 23, 2016 by Angie in VA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Wow, first time in an orchestra and he's CM? That's great! And I'm in awe of anyone who can look at little black dots on lined paper and make beautiful sounds come out of a piece of wood or metal! More so for those who can play more than one instrument! Probably not CM since that tends to be a violinist, but yes, I agree! Wow, seems like he's doing great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Probably not CM since that tends to be a violinist, but yes, I agree! Wow, seems like he's doing great! Ah, sorry. My mind went to violin where 1st chair (of firsts) = CM. Duh, Angie. No one ever accuse me of being an accelerated learner! :nopity: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 23, 2016 Author Share Posted September 23, 2016 I've never even heard the term CM before this thread :) and I don't know how competitive this orchestra is. The top level goes to Europe every three years but it sounds like its pretty much upper classmen. We are in the 3rd / lowest level which I think was partly political since he's new. It must be hard to jump the new kid over the kids who have been members for 2 years and have been your private students. However, he has been playing trumpet for 4 years and piano for 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I've never even heard the term CM before this thread :) and I don't know how competitive this orchestra is. The top level goes to Europe every three years but it sounds like its pretty much upper classmen. We are in the 3rd / lowest level which I think was partly political since he's new. It must be hard to jump the new kid over the kids who have been members for 2 years and have been your private students. However, he has been playing trumpet for 4 years and piano for 5. CM: Concert Master This is generally the first chair of the first violins, who tunes everyone up and so on. Are you in the 3rd level of orchestra along with your son? I know that sometimes this is the case, like with some Suzuki where the parents and kids learn together. If not, it may be just a little language blip, but changing the words you use may help to detach some and to let him "own" music/orchestra for himself, which is IMO likely to help him and his finding his passion -- and in solving some of the "underperformance" issues you are experiencing. Maybe have some faith in the director to place your son appropriately and to move him when it is time. Nothing terrible seems to be happening. Your son's wanting to blend in and be social sounds okay to me. And it may be a lot harder for him than you realize. If you were saying that he was wanting to blend in by doing drugs like the other kids are doing, or harassing girls, or getting involved in crime or a gang, that would be a different matter. So far as I can tell he is not underperforming in terms of his age/grade either. As far as that goes he seems to be doing really well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 24, 2016 Author Share Posted September 24, 2016 No, I'm not in it. It's a youth orchestra. He chose to do this, and I said if we paid for it he would have to commit to practice. I checked in with him over a period of weeks and asked if he was sure. He insisted he was...thus the frustration that he is again skating through. He likes it. He appreciates that the other kids don't take months of practice to get a piece sounding good...in fact they tend to sound lovely the first time through. Kids who don't take stuff seriously bug him tremendously...apparently he doesn't see the irony here :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 No, I'm not in it. It's a youth orchestra. He chose to do this, and I said if we paid for it he would have to commit to practice. I checked in with him over a period of weeks and asked if he was sure. He insisted he was...thus the frustration that he is again skating through. He likes it. He appreciates that the other kids don't take months of practice to get a piece sounding good...in fact they tend to sound lovely the first time through. Kids who don't take stuff seriously bug him tremendously...apparently he doesn't see the irony here :( Although do you feel as if the lack of practice is hurting him or are you just annoyed that he can get away with not practicing and that in turn comes off to you as not caring about it? I sometimes get annoyed at my kid for not putting effort into things and then he'll ultimately perform well and I'm further annoyed that he pulls that off. LOL I mean I suppose I should be happy, but I highly value effort so it's hard for me to not get hung up on that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 Yes! I'm annoyed because I value hard work and also I value the persistence that is not learned if you never have to work hard! I do recognize it as a blessing in some ways - he can pursue more interests because he doesn't always have to be able to fit in his practice each day to make it work. But he never studies or practices at anything. I worry about that. He does have a younger and an older brother, both of whom are harder workers and more passionate, but also things do not come as easy to them. I think later in life this will serve them well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 I hear your frustration and worry now. How did he get as good as he is at trumpet, and yet never practice? My ds commented that his choir singing time helps his running because it builds up his lung capacity. I wonder if there could be things that your ds does that actually advance his trumpet playing skills, but do not appear to be "practice" in the usual sense. I wonder, since all the kids seem to be getting it without any (or much) outside practice, maybe the music being given to them is being carefully chosen to not require a lot of outside practice so that they can incrementally build their skills by having music that is not presenting a leap in difficulty. ??? Do friendships come easily for this son? Is he "popular"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 But he never studies or practices at anything. I worry about that. What is he not as good in? Look beyond academics like I can't iron clothes, can't ride a bike and some other common skills. My dad somehow can't use a rice cooker without burning some rice. My hubby can't read IKEA instructions without being confused. I never had to push myself for school and my music instruments playing are all recreational. Where I was most happy was working in high stress high adrenaline environment like the trading floor, race tracks, broadcasting station computer server rooms. I love high stakes last minute jobs and they happen to pay good bonuses even now. My hubby's best bonuses are from "firefighting". When I was in 11th, I was offered a place in an extra math class for kids wanting to take the harder Cambridge Further Math exam. There was an aptitude test but the teachers just offered me a place straight out. I rejected that and spent my time in Student Council and being project leads for extracurriculars. That decision paid back lots in getting a job in college and after. Academics wise, there were plenty with As looking for well paying jobs. What they were looking for in the jobs I applied for were people to groom for engineering management. If my goal was academics, I might have choose differently and pick the add-on harder class that would cost me about 5hrs a week for tutorial and homework. Look at his personality and interests. What would make him go that extra mile that you want him to. My DS11 is into business, DS10 into computer game design. While my kids aren't cruising as much as I did for academics, they aren't putting full effort either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 He has plenty of friends and is very well-adjusted. Yes music is easy for him. He's not a prodigy or anything, but he's very good. His site reading is superb, he memorizes with ease, and he's been told his tone on the trumpet is really good - whatever that means. Everyone hits the wall where they have to work to succeed eventually. I guess I should mention that he is almost a duplicate of my husband. My husband and his nephew have both given me personal experience with young men who are allowed to coast and then struggle to handle a challenge when it arises. I don't know how to make him go the extra mile for anything since he is not super-excited about anything. His favorite thing is his music. This orchestra is where I was looking for that challenge to occur. And he hates being the center of attention so trying to stand out will not inspire him (quite the opposite). It's not as if he has excelled at everything he has ever done. He just never makes an effort and he can be anywhere from OK to incredible with no effort. Actually, I think he would go the extra mile for grades. I warned the trumpet instructor so I think I am going to contact him again and mention that ds is not practicing nearly as much as requested. DS is a very compliant child so if the instructor holds his feet to the fire, he will make the effort, but he can't do that if he thinks ds is practicing. Realistically from the standpoint of addressing this specific issue, I get that the best solution would have been multiple grade accelerations, but I did not feel that was in the best interest of his development overall (social emotional, his interest in soccer, etc...) That is why I homeschooled him. I'm not sure I accomplished anything, though maybe it would be worse if I hadn't homeschooled. I certainly pushed him harder than the school would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 Funny - he just finished orchestra practice and was frustrated by the lack of focus and effort of the other trumpets. BTW this is a consistent reaction for him. He has very high standards of behavior across the board. He doesn't see the irony that he is complaining about their lack of effort. He also recognized some of the high school kids coming in for the next level up. Maybe that will motivate him...but when I mentioned that having a good tryout would help him to move up faster and away from the annoying kids, he was frustrated with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 He also recognized some of the high school kids coming in for the next level up. Maybe that will motivate him...but when I mentioned that having a good tryout would help him to move up faster and away from the annoying kids, he was frustrated with me. When my hubby says something like that, my kids would ask him why hubby say something they already know :lol: How does your husband feels about the underperforming/cruising? My husband and I had to agree on our minimum because we have different minimums and so I am slack in some areas and he is slack in some areas, which leads to confused kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epi Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Everyone is focusing on the work-ethic issue, which is important. Lack of effort is a concern. But that's not what this describes: He will throw tests for qualifying for competitions so as to not be "on stage". That's self-sabotage. I would be a hundred times more worried about anything deliberately self-destructive than I would be about mere laziness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted September 25, 2016 Author Share Posted September 25, 2016 DH agrees it's an issue, just probably not as concerned as I am....bc he was like that. Hmm...self-sabotage. He's done it 3 times in the last 18 months that I know of...always regarding an academic competition where he did not want to do an oral /on-stage component. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Funny - he just finished orchestra practice and was frustrated by the lack of focus and effort of the other trumpets. BTW this is a consistent reaction for him. He has very high standards of behavior across the board. He doesn't see the irony that he is complaining about their lack of effort. He also recognized some of the high school kids coming in for the next level up. Maybe that will motivate him...but when I mentioned that having a good tryout would help him to move up faster and away from the annoying kids, he was frustrated with me. Tell him you are confused. Ask him to explain to you what he needs *you* to understand about his feelings about trumpet, the orchestra, and what *his* goals are. Try really to understand him, where he is coming from, what his goals and desires are. Maybe he does not want to move away from the annoying kid/s who is/are not making enough of an effort, anymore than you want to move away from your kid/s even though he/they is/are sometimes annoying. Maybe he just wants to vent about being frustrated and have you listen to his JAWM! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Everyone is focusing on the work-ethic issue, which is important. Lack of effort is a concern. But that's not what this describes: That's self-sabotage. I would be a hundred times more worried about anything deliberately self-destructive than I would be about mere laziness. That's an interesting perspective to consider. If it is self-sabotage, I wonder why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Maybe some family therapy would be helpful when it is still seeming mild and with regard to things that didn't really matter. One would hate to see it first addressed at such time as he might feel like he had to throw something that would be on a permanent record such as dual enrollment classes if his mom pulls him out of school as she has said she will if he does not do as she wants him to do. Or worse. Since quitting music, something he loves--in fact the only near passion he has, seems like it certainly would be self-sabotaging, and since he has said he will do that if he is forced to move into an orchestra group away from his friends, I think you probably caught something important the rest of us missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 (edited) He's done it 3 times in the last 18 months that I know of...always regarding an academic competition where he did not want to do an oral /on-stage component.Is it the oral/on-stage componenet that he doesn't like or is it because he can't hide that he is that good. For example my kids don't like being in the spotlight because then it becomes "public knowledge" of attendees and parents but any written competiton like AMC8 and they don't care if people know their rank/points because someone would have to purposely search for their names on the roll. ETA: Self sabotage can also be about control. How much control does he have over his own aims? My DS11 is looking at colleges even though he is not interested in going early. He wants to be in the driver seat just like I did. My hubby is more go with the flow. Edited September 25, 2016 by Arcadia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Funny - he just finished orchestra practice and was frustrated by the lack of focus and effort of the other trumpets. BTW this is a consistent reaction for him. He has very high standards of behavior across the board. He doesn't see the irony that he is complaining about their lack of effort. He also recognized some of the high school kids coming in for the next level up. Maybe that will motivate him...but when I mentioned that having a good tryout would help him to move up faster and away from the annoying kids, he was frustrated with me. But can you see that to him there is a negative effect from the other trumpets' lack of effort and there is not a negative effect from his lack of effort? It is not his fault that he doesn't have to work as hard to contribute well to the orchestra, and they do have to work hard to contribute well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternalsummer Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 DH agrees it's an issue, just probably not as concerned as I am....bc he was like that. Hmm...self-sabotage. He's done it 3 times in the last 18 months that I know of...always regarding an academic competition where he did not want to do an oral /on-stage component. I did this as a child when school forced us to compete in that way. I don't see it as much of a problem - why enter him in these competitions? He doesn't like performance (or solo performance, it looks like) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 26, 2016 Share Posted September 26, 2016 DH agrees it's an issue, just probably not as concerned as I am....bc he was like that. Below quoted explains better. Your husband "survive" despite underperforming. Your underperforming child may have other priorities at the moment. You do need to calmly get to why your child choose to underperform despite your frustrations. "Get away from questioning “who’s at fault†for underachievement and work towards resolving the situation where no one loses. In every case of underachievement, there is enough blame to go around. A meager curriculum? Perhaps. Parental expectations that are too high? Could be. Lousy, cantankerous attitude toward authority? Students have been known to be guilty of that. But if parents, teachers and kids themselves can agree to have an honest series of conversations about what is working and what is not working, the first seeds of resolution have been sown. Above all else, parents and teachers (but parents, especially) need to remember that a short-term gain in achievement is not worth the price of a long-term dissolution of the adult-child relationship. Sometimes, this means stepping back, as a parent; other times it means listening to your parent not as a critic, but as a partner in problem solving. If this ongoing conundrum of underachievement gets resolved successfully, it is because all parties involved perceive they have a stake in the situation." http://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10729 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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