Jon Benet Ramsey

[Scarlett]

Anyone watching the special?

[1GirlTwinBoys]

I watched the last 45 mins and also watched the 2nd Dr. Phil episode last week.

 

This case has completely fascinated me and the fact that after 20 years it's still unsolved.  The entire family seems so suspicious to me.  I can't help but wonder if they're all in on her murder somehow.  Possible the son did it and the parents helped cover it up.  I don't know....

 

 

[Scarlett]

I watched the last 45 mins and also watched the 2nd Dr. Phil episode last week.

 

This case has completely fascinated me and the fact that after 20 years it's still unsolved. The entire family seems so suspicious to me. I can't help but wonder if they're all in on her murder somehow. Possible the son did it and the parents helped cover it up. I don't know....

I watched the first half of the dr Phil show.....what did they second half show? Does Dr. Phil think the brother did it?

[katilac]

I watched the first half of the dr Phil show.....what did they second half show? Does Dr. Phil think the brother did it?

 

I forgot to watch, but I read that he strongly stated that the brother had nothing to do with it. 

[raptor_dad]

Anyone watching the special?

 

No. I didn't care back then... I care even less now.

[Scarlett]

I forgot to watch, but I read that he strongly stated that the brother had nothing to do with it.

Really? I thought for sure that was the direction they were going now......

[Seasider]

What was the occasion for the media revisiting this? Is it an anniversary of some kind? I haven't watched any recent broadcasts, just saw some advertised as I channel flipped the other day.

 

Oh, I always thought the brother did it and the parents were covering for him.

[Desert Strawberry]

What was the occasion for the media revisiting this? Is it an anniversary of some kind? I haven't watched any recent broadcasts, just saw some advertised as I channel flipped the other day.

 

Oh, I always thought the brother did it and the parents were covering for him.

20 years.

 

Wasn't he 9? I thought she was sexually abused. They had a party that night. I always thought it was a guest.

[UmMusa]

Didn't watch it but also have been suspicious as to why it was not solved.

[Seasider]

20 years.

 

Wasn't he 9? I thought she was sexually abused. They had a party that night. I always thought it was a guest.

Yes, he was 9, but she was only six so there would have been a power imbalance there, and frankly, the whole pageant mentality may have had a gross effect on childhood behavior. But I've thought really that it was maybe accidental, but still his fault, and the parents got too deep into covering for him to successfully backpedal.

 

Of course these are just my thoughts, I have not deliberately sought out information and before the current discussion hadn't thought about the event in a looooong time.

[Liz CA]

Interesting. Brought back some memories. Back then I had a Psychology Professor who also worked in Forensic Psychology and he shared with us that he suspected the father because of his odd behavior during an interview.

Nothing was ever proven of course. Lots of speculation all the way around.

[gardenmom5]

Didn't watch it but also have been suspicious as to why it was not solved.

 

I've read some stuff over the years - the police bumbled the investigation and contaminated evidence from the very beginning.  the whole case is a  case study in WHY there are investigative procedures - and WHY you have to follow them.

 

eta: re: by the time they realized they had a murder - evidence had been compromised - or even inadvertently destroyed.  by the police.

Edited September 19, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Just Kate]

Dh and I watched last night's show. Part of me felt creepy for watching...seems so strange that 20 years later we are still talking about this little girl's murder!

 

As for the show, it seems obvious that they think the family had something to do with it. I found the analysis of the 911 call and the parents' interviews to be interesting. I do wonder if I was in the middle of a tragedy, would I act "normal"? Is there a normal in those situations? The experts certainly seem to think so.

 

I will watch again tonight. If the family wasn't involved, I am truly sad for what they have to endure right now.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Just Kate

[lmrich]

I did not mean to watch, but it was on when I flipped on the tv. I can't beleive that they recreated their whole house for this tv investigation! I always wonder how the producers know that it will be worth the $$. 

 

[whitestavern]

I caught most of last night's and found it very interesting. I agree with a PP that the team of experts certainly seems to think the family was involved. So many things are suspicious; the investigation seems to have been so sloppy. Will be interesting to watch tonight.

[lynn]

I am curious  about it but I don't have access to regular tv stations.   However, I do wish they would let that child rest in peace.  

[FaithManor]

I've read some stuff over the years - the police bumbled the investigation and contaminated evidence from the very beginning. the whole case is a case study in WHY there are investigative procedures - and WHY you have to follow them.

 

eta: re: by the time they realized they had a murder - evidence had been compromised - or even inadvertently destroyed. by the police.

And by Patsy Ramsey as well. In plain site of police she got pannicky, grabbed the bowl of pineapple off the counter, dumped it - and police did nothing about that - and washed the bowl. Later they denied having let JonBenet have any pineapple before bed despite it being found in her stomach during the autopsy. Very, very strange behavior and total non kosher response from police. It was a crime scene so Patsy should have been prevented from doing anything and certainly cleaning up would be high on the list of stop or be arrested for interferring with a criminal investigation.

 

Also didn't he coronor's report indicate that the genital injuries were post mortem and that the evidence suggested it was staged to look like a sex crime when in fact JonBenet had been dead several hours?

 

No footprints in the snow. No forced entry. No sign of an intruder anywhete in the home. It doesn't bode well for the parents. I always thought that one of the parents did it and the other helped covet it up. Police procedure in the investigation was just appalling.

 

Oh apparently the only "ransom" note in history that read like a novel.

Handwriting analysis was, if memory serves, inconclusive on the part of Patsy.

 

The guy who confessed while living in Thailand or Sinapore, can't remember which country, was exonnerated. He seems to have been mentally unstable.

Edited September 19, 2016 by FaithManor

[poppy]

Here is what I think of JonBenet Ramsey. I was curious about the case one day and did a little googling.  Ended up somehow stumbling onto an autopsy photo. Wasn't meaning to, but that's the internet. It is terrible.  I really want to never think about that poor little child ever again.

[Scarlett]

The things that make me feel strongly that the parents are either involved or covering up ( and I am guessing they wouldn't cover up for anyone except their son)

1) Patsy's abrupt change of tone when she thought she had hung up the phone with 911

2) The ransom note was obviously staged and most likely written by one or both of the parents. The investigators timed themselves writing the note. It took 22 minutes. Why would a murderer do that instead of fleeing the scene.

3) The body was found by the father because apparently the police didn't find it. She was in a very dark basement room and the father said 'I found her' before he even turned on the light.

4) All their rich friends closed ranks around them and were instructed to not speak to the press or police. The ones who didn't obey were cut off as friends. If your daughter had been murderd you would want her murderer found.....you wouldn't hinder the investigation at every turn.

 

Things that make me think the brother did it

1) the above bizarre behavior by the parents

2) his voice was heard on the 911 call.....parents claimed he was asleep.

3) the parents cnn interview where they looked dazed and said they wanted to know 'why' it happened. (Not who did it...but why. )

Edited September 19, 2016 by Scarlett

[redsquirrel]

and wasn't there a lot that was mishandled by the police? I thought they allowed her body to be covered with a blanket, thereby causing problems with forensic evidence etc. 

 

I have a difficult time believing that the brother killed her. He was 9. It takes a lot of physical strength to kill a person, even a 6 year old.  And to kill like that in the middle of the night?  That is an adult who doesn't want to be seen. Now, might he know what happened? He really might.

 

The only reason I knew who she was before she died is that I used her picture in some educational materials as an example of the sexualization of children. When she died, I took her picture out.

[shawthorne44]

I am trying to decide whether or not to watch the show.  On one hand, I am curious.   On the other, DD looks amazingly like her, so it is extra disturbing.  .  

[LucyStoner]

Here is what I think of JonBenet Ramsey. I was curious about the case one day and did a little googling.  Ended up somehow stumbling onto an autopsy photo. Wasn't meaning to, but that's the internet. It is terrible.  I really want to never think about that poor little child ever again.

 

Why is this stuff even available to the public?!

[Miss Peregrine]

Why is this stuff even available to the public?!

I know! I stumbled upon an autopsy picture years ago from another high-profile murder and I can't un-see it.

[Scarlett]

and wasn't there a lot that was mishandled by the police? I thought they allowed her body to be covered with a blanket, thereby causing problems with forensic evidence etc.

 

I have a difficult time believing that the brother killed her. He was 9. It takes a lot of physical strength to kill a person, even a 6 year old. And to kill like that in the middle of the night? That is an adult who doesn't want to be seen. Now, might he know what happened? He really might.

 

The only reason I knew who she was before she died is that I used her picture in some educational materials as an example of the sexualization of children. When she died, I took her picture out.

They addressed whether a 9 year old boy could have killed her, they believe it was a flashlight ---a BIG flashlight---that was used. And they think with that weapon he could have done it. There is speculation he was in the basement in the middle of the night playing with a new toy and she came down there and he got mad at her.

 

On the 911 call... On the enhanced version the dad says sternly/coldly 'we are not talking to you. '

[katilac]

and wasn't there a lot that was mishandled by the police?  

 

Yes, the crime scene and precious early hours of investigation were badly mishandled, so much so that they made it very difficult to ever know what truly happened, much less prove it in court. I give no credence to the excuse that they were inexperienced in major crime, because this was stuff people know just from watching tv, kwim? 

 

On the 911 call... On the enhanced version the dad says sternly/coldly 'we are not talking to you. '

 

 

Did they play the enhanced call on the show? Were you able to hear it yourself? I've listened to enhanced versions on the internet in the past, and I've never been able to hear a thing, much less clearly spoken words by an identifiable person. If there's a newer/better enhancement, I'd be interested in listening to it. 

[PeachyDoodle]

They addressed whether a 9 year old boy could have killed her, they believe it was a flashlight ---a BIG flashlight---that was used. And they think with that weapon he could have done it. There is speculation he was in the basement in the middle of the night playing with a new toy and she came down there and he got mad at her.

 

On the 911 call... On the enhanced version the dad says sternly/coldly 'we are not talking to you. '

 

Yes, on the special last night they even had a boy of a similar age/size do a test to see whether he could crack a skull using a similar flashlight. He did, in one blow with relatively little force, and left a wound almost identical to Jon Benet's.

 

The scenario that makes the most sense to me is that the boy did accidentally kill her, and the parents were covering for him. But the investigators on the special believe that he can be heard on the 911 call asking, "What DID you find?" I'm not sure why he would ask that if he knew his sister was dead in the basement. Then again, I couldn't make out any of the words the investigators claim were on the tape, so maybe he didn't even say that.

 

[momacacia]

I'm so tired of her face on tabloid shelves. She was obviously a very pretty little girl, but the sexualization of the make-up, hair, etc. creeps me.out every time. I just always think there's something abnormal for a parent to allow or want to do that to a child.

[shawthorne44]

I'm so tired of her face on tabloid shelves. She was obviously a very pretty little girl, but the sexualization of the make-up, hair, etc. creeps me.out every time. I just always think there's something abnormal for a parent to allow or want to do that to a child.

 

That may be partly this disturbs me.   DD looks like her, only DD doesn't wear makeup (obviously).   I've been resistant to heavy makeup for DD's ballet recitals and this may be why.  

[FaithManor]

Yes, the crime scene and precious early hours of investigation were badly mishandled, so much so that they made it very difficult to ever know what truly happened, much less prove it in court. I give no credence to the excuse that they were inexperienced in major crime, because this was stuff people know just from watching tv, kwim?

Agreed, even an inexperienced officer right out of academy knows you don't let someone clean an object at the crime scene and once a child is reported missing, parents don't get to wander the house unattended.

 

It is basic common sense. A crime scene or a potential crime scene must be preserved with the least amount of "footprint" possible.

 

Crazy.

Makes me wonder what strange hold these rich people had over the legal system in Boulder?

[MinivanMom]

I've always been really uncomfortable with over-analyzing the behavior of family members as "evidence" that they are guilty. Having had family members die in violent circumstances, there is no way you can know how you would react or whether you would react in the "right" way. I have seen such a range of reactions in those shocking first moments that I'm not sure there is a normal vs a suspicious reaction.

 

I personally am very calm and collected in crisis. I tend to jump in calmly trying to handle things and trying to do something. I know I have changed my tone depending on who I'm talking to: police versus nosy neighbors versus family I trust. And, yes, I have immediately started cleaning when I shouldn't have; it's just such an automatic reaction to grab something and start scrubbing. Of course, I was young and this was pre-CSI; I don't think I would do that now, but it didn't even cross my mind that I was doing something wrong back then. 

 

The only thing anyone knows with certainty is that a little girl died, and that the police contaminated the crime scene and bungled the investigation. There probably won't ever be any resolution. If there is a resolution someday, it will come from new evidence, not from behavioral analysis of the family. 

[gardenmom5]

I just saw an article on this show and the fbi agent who is doing this - *claims* he was part of capturing the unibomber.  he may have investigated him, but the unibomber was turned in by his brother - otherwise, they were no closer to catching him.

[Happy]

Agreed, even an inexperienced officer right out of academy knows you don't let someone clean an object at the crime scene and once a child is reported missing, parents don't get to wander the house unattended.

 

It is basic common sense. A crime scene or a potential crime scene must be preserved with the least amount of "footprint" possible.

 

Crazy.

Makes me wonder what strange hold these rich people had over the legal system in Boulder?

Didn't watch the show...

 

I heard an interview a few days ago which indicated the DA at the time did not have a good working relationship with the police. Neither liked to work together and perhaps actively tried the make the other look bad.

 

I find that annoying and baffling...aren't they supposed to work together to protect the public good????

[redsquirrel]

Didn't watch the show...

 

I heard an interview a few days ago which indicated the DA at the time did not have a good working relationship with the police. Neither liked to work together and perhaps actively tried the make the other look bad.

 

I find that annoying and baffling...aren't they supposed to work together to protect the public good????

 

There is always, always, always the possibility of friction between agencies.  The DS office wants the police to be more on top of thing and stop doing stupid shit, and the police say that the DA's office is filled with a bunch of egg head lawyers who don't know what it's like to investigate a crime.  There is constant competition and friction between different LE agencies.  The city cops and the county sheriff don't get along, neither of them like the State Police and they all hate the feds. 

 

Are their friendships and great working relationships in there as well? Yes. Are there personality clashes? yes. Do both sides have a point? Yes. Are both sides being unreasonable? Lol, yes.

 

It's complicated. But to think that anyone would intentionally bungle something to make the other look bad, I think is wrong.  That sort of thing happens after everything goes wrong.  When it all goes to shit each side throws the other under the bus.  But when it all goes right, there is plenty of praise to go around.

 

So it has always been and so it will always be.

 

Can you tell that I was a case manager who had to act as a go between and liaison with law enforcement and prosecutors? I've heard it all and worked with them all..local to fed. It's ALWAYS like that.

[SKL]

I too ran across some photos from the case (assuming they were real, the internet being what it is), and that did not look like the work of a child.  And it certainly wasn't an accident.  It does boggle that they couldn't figure out who did it.  There had to be DNA evidence.

[Happy]

There is always, always, always the possibility of friction between agencies.  The DS office wants the police to be more on top of thing and stop doing stupid shit, and the police say that the DA's office is filled with a bunch of egg head lawyers who don't know what it's like to investigate a crime.  There is constant competition and friction between different LE agencies.  The city cops and the county sheriff don't get along, neither of them like the State Police and they all hate the feds. 

 

Are their friendships and great working relationships in there as well? Yes. Are there personality clashes? yes. Do both sides have a point? Yes. Are both sides being unreasonable? Lol, yes.

 

It's complicated. But to think that anyone would intentionally bungle something to make the other look bad, I think is wrong.  That sort of thing happens after everything goes wrong.  When it all goes to shit each side throws the other under the bus.  But when it all goes right, there is plenty of praise to go around.

 

So it has always been and so it will always be.

 

Can you tell that I was a case manager who had to act as a go between and liaison with law enforcement and prosecutors? I've heard it all and worked with them all..local to fed. It's ALWAYS like that.

I appreciate your perspective. It makes me sad to think this kind of stuff gets in the way of justice.

[chicagoshannon]

I watched a different show about this last week (on A&E I think)  That show leaned toward the family having nothing to do with it.  They stated that the things released to the press were all made up.  For example: no footprints in the snow.  There was no snow except on the grass- the paths were clear so there was no snow to leave foot prints.  The show also showed evidence of skin cells from an unknown person found on JonBenet's pants.  There was also a blood smear down the wall by the window that the intruder came in that was ignored by the police.

 

Basically the police didn't like how the family was acting so they jumped to conclusions and didn't collect evidence in the house.

 

I am curious about the pineapple thing mentioned above.  What's the big deal if she had pineapple?  Was she allergic?  The show I watched said the Ramseys were at a party and Jonbenet was asleep when they arrived home and was put directly to bed.  There was nothing discussed about eating anything.

[Miss Peregrine]

 

 

I am curious about the pineapple thing mentioned above. What's the big deal if she had pineapple? Was she allergic? The show I watched said the Ramseys were at a party and Jonbenet was asleep when they arrived home and was put directly to bed. There was nothing discussed about eating anything.

Apparently the stage of digestion the pineapple was in indicated the time she had to have eaten it, which was after they got home.

[redsquirrel]

I appreciate your perspective. It makes me sad to think this kind of stuff gets in the way of justice.

 

In the long term, it helps with justice.  It keeps one branch from running roughshod over the other, forces each of them to make sure they are following the rules. And it is also part of how the keep an eye on each other.  If the DA can't call out the police if the police aren't following the law then who will? And if the police don't feel like they can speak up if the DA isn't doing a good job prosecuting then who will? IMHO, trouble comes when they work together a little bit too well, when they are willing to turn a blind eye for each other. That is when justice suffers. 

[FaithManor]

Apparently the stage of digestion the pineapple was in indicated the time she had to have eaten it, which was after they got home.

Yes and the parents denied more than once that JonBenet had ever been given pineapple despite the bowl of pineapple on the counter which Patsy dumped out and washed while police were securing the crime scene. The stage of digestion indicated she could not have eaten at the party they attended earlier because all the other food she had ingested was in a latrr stage of digestion or fully digested.

[keylimeliving]

The show said they spent a few hours at a friends house-- those are your relatives? The show also showed her dad, during a taped police questioning, saying that perhaps the wife( of the friends) was the killer, as she always seemed in competition with JonBenet's mom. If this was your relative, did they remain friends after this??

I missed last night's program, maybe it will be repeated.

 

I have Xfinity and was able to watch it through OnDemand this morning.

 

I live in Boulder so I have followed this case for quite some time. We have friends who live on the same street where the murder happened and it's so eerie going past that house! Can't believe it'll be 20 years in December.  

[Excelsior! Academy]

It has been years since I've seen any evidence about the case as I am purposely avoiding learning any more about it.  That said, wasn't she also strangled?  It is hard for me to believe that a child of 9 would have done all those injuries including the s@xual abuse, especially post mortem.

[FaithManor]

Yes, head injury, then strangulation, then sexual assault post mortem, then place her blankie with her,....

 

Just doesn't seem nine year old ish.

 

It does appear to be a possible nine year old injures sister, doesn't tell parents until to late, parents realize she isn't going to make it, strangle her to finish her off to cover for brother, stage the rape (coroner report indicates it was not only post mortem but not...ahem....shall we say, a body part used), and that makes more sense since it took about 20 minutes to write the ransom letter which it is doubtful an intruder would do as it would be nuts for someone else to take that long inside the house, and speaks to the issue of the dad finding her in the dark basement without lights on.

 

Just my hypothesis, but it is what I have always thought was plausible.

[Excelsior! Academy]

I cannot imagine a parent abusing their child in that way to cover her death.  The idea makes me physically ill.  If they did, I hope they get what they deserve and if they didn't, I do hope they are cleared.  It is time for this sweet baby to rest in peace.  

[FaithManor]

Patsy died of breast cancer a while ago.

 

The dad married the mom of the high school senior that disappeared in Aruba and was suspected of being murdered by that Vandergroot kid who ended up convicted of murder in South America.

[Seasider]

The dad married the mom of the high school senior that disappeared in Aruba and was suspected of being murdered by that Vandergroot kid who ended up convicted of murder in South America.

Seriously? That's so weird to me. But, I can imagine they have much in common with each other that very few others have experienced.

[Katy]

I didn't see the special, but the family had nothing to do with it.  Male DNA that was unrelated to the family was found all over the house, especially inside her underwear!!!

 

Thinking pageants are creepy is one thing, but assuming a 9 year old is guilty of sexual assault and murder with NO EVIDENCE just because the parents were acting strangely according to hearsay is completely ridiculous.

 

Seriously, the amount of families that wouldn't "act suspicious" when their baby was kidnapped then found dead and sexually assaulted inside their home, when they and then their pre-pubecent children were accused of the murder is zero.  What we have here is a case of police who read an FBI statistic about the likelihood that someone in the family is guilty and then stopped working, solely on the assumption someone in the family did it. You know I'm nearly always on the side of police, but in this case the whole way this case was handled is deplorable. The police had no leads so rather than work harder they decided to smoke the family out by leaking made-up lies to the press simply to see how the family would respond.

[Chelli]

Patsy died of breast cancer a while ago.

 

The dad married the mom of the high school senior that disappeared in Aruba and was suspected of being murdered by that Vandergroot kid who ended up convicted of murder in South America.

 

Actually he didn't marry Natalee Hollway's mother. They dated briefly, but he married a fashion designer from Las Vegas in 2011.

[FaithManor]

Actually he didn't marry Natalee Hollway's mother. They dated briefly, but he married a fashion designer from Las Vegas in 2011.

Thanks for clarification. I thought they had tied the knot.

[Katy]

There were so many people all over the house, I'm sure DNA could be found in many areas. I thought, tho, that there was only one small spot of blood on her underwear that had non-family DNA, and it wasn't discovered until a year or so later? It is also possible( not probable, possible) that it was placed there illegally, corruption is certainly not unheard of.

 

Except that the same DNA was also found under her fingernails (indicating she was fighting back), and I'm under the impression, in two separate places in the house.

 

Contamination is one thing, but there is no reason it would be found under her nails TOO.

[MerryAtHope]

And by Patsy Ramsey as well.

 

And by the dad according to the show last night. After finding the body, he picked it up and brought it upstairs! (And then for some reason that I didn't catch, someone moved the body AGAIN after that.)

Edited September 20, 2016 by MerryAtHope