Tracy Posted September 12, 2016 Posted September 12, 2016 My kids' new Sunday School teacher called me to get ideas for how to teach my children. Let me give some background first. Previously, ds8 was in a class with 4-8yos, and dd11 was in the class for 9-12yos, and then all meet together at the end. The congregation is small, so there were times that dd11 was the only class member. Dd11 has been struggling with extreme boredom and some existential questions about why we go church. We have encouraged her to see church as a place to serve, rather than a place to be served. However, she apparently wreaked havoc with the Sunday School organization, as she sought to help the younger kids, rather than staying in her seat and doing what they wanted her to do. (Of course, no one ever contacted us as the parents.) Ds8 wasn't really struggling, but all could see that he was way ahead of the other kids, both intellectually and emotionally. So they called a new teacher, and then they moved ds8 into the older group. I am so grateful that this teacher is spot on about the problems. After only a month, she tells me that the curriculum is completely inappropriate for them. It focuses on learning scripture stories that they are already thoroughly familiar with, and applying gospel principals to situations that are foreign to them (e.g., school, cheating, being disrespectful to parents, excluding kids from activities, etc.) She tried talking to the President of the organization, who just said that this is the curriculum, so this is what must be taught. But this teacher is determined to meet the spiritual, emotional and intellectual needs of my kids, bless her heart. She wants to meet with me so I can help her to adapt the curriculum to their needs. Additionally, she thinks we should consider moving dd11 to the youth class, which she would move into anyway at her birthday in the spring. First, I am hoping that you can help me to brainstorm ways to adapt a curriculum to the needs of gifted kids (keeping in mind that dd11 is 2e, primarily affecting her writing). Here is what I have so far: Add deeper questions (Why did he do it? How did he feel? What would have happened if he had chosen differently?) Help the kids make connections (with other scriptures, with history, or any other subject matter) Perhaps have the kids teach parts of the lessons? Second, I would appreciate any insight into the advisability of moving dd11 into the older class. Currently, there are only 2 girls in that class, one of which is 13yo and the other about 16yo with others attending sporadically. The two that attend are both really sweet girls. English is a second language for that teacher, which poses a problem with explaining their needs as gifted and 2e kids. Additionally, as a celiac family, we have had health issues that have affected the kids, which the new teacher for the younger kids understands. But the teacher for the older kids doesn't understand, and she has been clueless when I have needed to explain it to her. So I am concerned that putting dd11 into a class with more in-depth material will be traded for more painful misunderstandings. OTOH, there are only six months until she will naturally go to that class anyway. Quote
Rachel Posted September 12, 2016 Posted September 12, 2016 Is the director who advised that the curriculum had to be used concerned about cost of new materials or about the content being taught? How many kids are present on a typical Sunday? Quote
Porridge Posted September 12, 2016 Posted September 12, 2016 Having the kids help teach the lessons is a great way to get them constructively involved. They have to really think through the material and think about how to present it to the other kids. Thinking about how to teach or present a concept or story requires a lot of higher order thinking and creativity and sometimes introspection. I would suggest having them help with a younger age group - if you have them help teach peers, it might set up awkward dynamics for later, especially as they enter the teen / tween years. Quote
Tracy Posted September 12, 2016 Author Posted September 12, 2016 Is the director who advised that the curriculum had to be used concerned about cost of new materials or about the content being taught? How many kids are present on a typical Sunday? The biggest problem is that there are no other materials available. Our church provides the same curriculum for all congregations worldwide. (On any given Sunday, the same lesson is being given in all congregations around the world.) So we can pull from curricula for other groups in the church, such as the teen Sunday school, the adult Sunday school, classes for new members, etc. But there is no other curriculum for this age group. Every other Sunday, My kids are the only ones in their class. There is a family that comes every other Sunday that adds two boys to the class. Their ages are between my kids, but they struggle with reading and do not have as much scriptural knowledge, because they do not learn it at home. Having the kids help teach the lessons is a great way to get them constructively involved. They have to really think through the material and think about how to present it to the other kids. Thinking about how to teach or present a concept or story requires a lot of higher order thinking and creativity and sometimes introspection. I would suggest having them help with a younger age group - if you have them help teach peers, it might set up awkward dynamics for later, especially as they enter the teen / tween years. I love your summary of the benefits of teaching. Unfortunately, teaching the younger kids is not an option. They have their own teacher and their own separate curriculum. But since my kids are the only ones in the class half the time, they could teach without it being awkward with their peers. Quote
Rachel Posted September 12, 2016 Posted September 12, 2016 This sounds complicated. I guess I would be inclined to send her to the older class since she will be there soon. Even if the language barrier makes things difficult, your daughter is old enough to advocate for herself. Quote
Black-eyed Suzan Posted September 12, 2016 Posted September 12, 2016 Hmm. It may be that adult or more advanced materials would be more appropriate. Could you choose and provide an appropriate curriculum for your kids and the teacher that could be discussed when they were the only ones in the class? Could they attend adult Sunday school instead? In 7th grade, I stopped going to youth programming and started attending the adult service and volunteering with the toddlers. I still think that it was the best option for me at that time. Another idea for the teacher: - Analysis of the text - I have appreciated studies that give the meaning of the original language or compare translations to give a more complete picture of its meaning. Quote
kiwik Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 It sounds ridiculously rigid. If the 11 year old wants to move up I would let her. If not I would take her to church with me. Quote
MinivanMom Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 I think a good teacher can take a basic scriptural lesson and take it deeper. It sounds like this is a good teacher, and I would definitely encourage her in that direction. I'm not sure I would want to move your dd up early if that leaves ds alone in the class every other week. That's a hard situation for him. Could the weeks with just your kids be deeper lessons and the alternating weeks your dd could help with teaching the class to the younger boys? Or if you think it's best to move your daughter up (is leadership on board?), could they change the split of the classes so your son isn't alone every other week? Just because the lesson manuals split at 4-8/9-12, that doesn't mean that the classes have to be split that way in a very small congregation. You just need leadership who understand that flexibility is allowed and needed when the numbers are very small. Maybe it could split 4-6/7-12 or however else would help it work best. Quote
Tracy Posted September 16, 2016 Author Posted September 16, 2016 It sounds ridiculously rigid. If the 11 year old wants to move up I would let her. If not I would take her to church with me. I am not sure why you think it is rigid. We have been given a lot of options here. The issue is what is best for her. We have the option to move her up. But I am not sure that is what is best for her. I think a good teacher can take a basic scriptural lesson and take it deeper. It sounds like this is a good teacher, and I would definitely encourage her in that direction. I'm not sure I would want to move your dd up early if that leaves ds alone in the class every other week. That's a hard situation for him. Could the weeks with just your kids be deeper lessons and the alternating weeks your dd could help with teaching the class to the younger boys? Or if you think it's best to move your daughter up (is leadership on board?), could they change the split of the classes so your son isn't alone every other week? Just because the lesson manuals split at 4-8/9-12, that doesn't mean that the classes have to be split that way in a very small congregation. You just need leadership who understand that flexibility is allowed and needed when the numbers are very small. Maybe it could split 4-6/7-12 or however else would help it work best. That is a good point about ds being alone in class every other week--worth consideration. I don't know that he would be bothered by it. He loves the teacher and would probably benefit from the one-on-one attention. The problem with this whole situation is that some leadership is totally on board, and some are just completely clueless. All of these options have been given to us because the Bishop (the leader of the congregation) noticed that there was a problem. He is very much on board with making whatever changes are necessary to meet their needs, and he is the reason that they have this new teacher. Ordinarily, ds would stay in the lower class until the end of the calendar year, but when the Bishop found out who his classmates were, he decided that that would not do and moved ds up early. The new teacher is completely on board but needs some guidance to make it work. The teacher has tried reaching out to the president of the children's organization, and while she loves the kids, she just couldn't understand what seemed apparent to the teacher. I do not expect the Young Women's leader to be able to understand. She is a very kind and sweet woman, but her struggle with English as a second language is a hindrance. Even more of a concern is that the Young Women's materials will not really be anything new to dd. If I tell her that going to YW now is an option, she may jump at it, thinking it is what she is looking for. But she may end up in the same situation as she is in now, only with a teacher who is unable to think outside the box to meet her needs. Ultimately, I am willing to just pull my kids from their classes and take them with me to the adult Sunday School. But since there are people that are trying to help them, I want to see how this will play out first. Quote
MinivanMom Posted September 16, 2016 Posted September 16, 2016 I am not sure why you think it is rigid. We have been given a lot of options here. The issue is what is best for her. We have the option to move her up. But I am not sure that is what is best for her. That is a good point about ds being alone in class every other week--worth consideration. I don't know that he would be bothered by it. He loves the teacher and would probably benefit from the one-on-one attention. The problem with this whole situation is that some leadership is totally on board, and some are just completely clueless. All of these options have been given to us because the Bishop (the leader of the congregation) noticed that there was a problem. He is very much on board with making whatever changes are necessary to meet their needs, and he is the reason that they have this new teacher. Ordinarily, ds would stay in the lower class until the end of the calendar year, but when the Bishop found out who his classmates were, he decided that that would not do and moved ds up early. The new teacher is completely on board but needs some guidance to make it work. The teacher has tried reaching out to the president of the children's organization, and while she loves the kids, she just couldn't understand what seemed apparent to the teacher. I do not expect the Young Women's leader to be able to understand. She is a very kind and sweet woman, but her struggle with English as a second language is a hindrance. Even more of a concern is that the Young Women's materials will not really be anything new to dd. If I tell her that going to YW now is an option, she may jump at it, thinking it is what she is looking for. But she may end up in the same situation as she is in now, only with a teacher who is unable to think outside the box to meet her needs. Ultimately, I am willing to just pull my kids from their classes and take them with me to the adult Sunday School. But since there are people that are trying to help them, I want to see how this will play out first. Okay, if I were in your position, I would just quietly work around the PP. If you have the Bishop on board and a teacher who understands the situation and is willing to work to make it better, then I would want both kids to stay in the 8-12 class. I would maybe point the teacher toward the Sunday School manuals for adult GD and the Seminary manual as a place for material to supplement the lessons. I would also just generally encourage her in the area of digging deeper. Make it clear that dd is familiar with all of these scriptural stories and is looking more for the doctrinal meaning and spiritual implications. It sounds like the teacher cares enough to take a little encouragement and head in the right direction. I also really think that having your daughter help teach a portion of the lesson on the alternating weeks when the other little boys are there is a great idea. It acknowledges that she is older and more knowledgeable than the other kids, and it would help point her towards actively leading & mentoring others in these kinds of situations. Quote
Incognito Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 Moving up doesn't really sound like it will solve the problems. The other kids will be in the same class again fairly soon (as they will be older also). I am not sure what the answer is. Would it work for the current Sunday School teacher to just do direct Biblical study on the passages that correspond with the curriculum for the week? They could dig deeply into word meanings, related texts, etc. Quote
kiwik Posted September 19, 2016 Posted September 19, 2016 It sounds rigid because; a) there is a curriculum that has to be used rather than the teacher organising the lessons, 2) you have multiple groups that result in there being one student sometimes - why not combine them or alter them to prevent this? I would recommend altering the age limits to get a decent group (which they have done a little) and asking the kids what they want to study and designing a course of study based on that. Quote
Tracy Posted September 19, 2016 Author Posted September 19, 2016 It sounds rigid because; a) there is a curriculum that has to be used rather than the teacher organising the lessons, 2) you have multiple groups that result in there being one student sometimes - why not combine them or alter them to prevent this? I would recommend altering the age limits to get a decent group (which they have done a little) and asking the kids what they want to study and designing a course of study based on that. There is a core curriculum so that people teach the doctrines of the church rather than ad libbing what they think should be taught (which doesn't always match up with what the church teaches). No one ever said that the teacher couldn't organize the lessons. No one ever said that the groups couldn't be combined. In fact, they already have done this. The curriculum can accommodate a separate class for each age (3yo, 4yo, 5yo, etc.), or they can be combined. Half the time, all of the children meet together (3yo-11yo), and half the time, they meet in their classes. For the time they meet in their classes, they could keep all of the children combined if that fit their needs. But it was determined that it would be better to move ds8 into dd11's class rather than the other way around. Currently, there is a 5yo, a 7yo, my ds8 and my dd11 that come every week. Then there is an additional 8yo and 9yo that come every other week. The 5yo and 7yo both have significant learning challenges. Previously, my 8yo would have been in the class with the 5yo and 7yo until the end of the calendar year. So they felt it would be more appropriate to move ds8 into the older class early. If they thought that it would be helpful to combine all of those kids in one class, they would have done. But I agree that that is not a good solution. I guess I don't see how this is rigid or how this is not a "decent group." How would you organize these classes differently? As for the students designing their own course of study, this is what personal study is all about, and we do that all the time. A worldwide church with a lay clergy must ensure that correct doctrines are taught. So the church provides a core curriculum that anyone can pick up and teach. But there is a lot of room for individualization and deeper study, which is what we are trying to do here. There are other resources that we can pull from. If you have specific ideas for how to do that, I would appreciate that. Quote
Tracy Posted September 19, 2016 Author Posted September 19, 2016 I am curious...what's your goal for having them IN Sunday School? It sounds like you have already provided a lot of what the Sunday School is teaching, so if you are already doing it at home, why are they going? What else is it that you are looking for the Sunday School to provide? I am genuinely asking because I think that knowing the end goal can help direct how to adapt the curriculum. This is kind of a hard question, because I think that all gifted individuals struggle with this in church. We seek out academics, because they fill an intellectual need. There is a temptation to treat Sunday school as an intellectual need rather than a spiritual need. I have certainly been tempted not to go because I "wasn't learning anything." But we have a lay clergy, and that implies that we are all learning together. Moreover, it suggests that we go to church (including Sunday school) to serve, as well as to learn. Lastly, I want my kids to develop a relationship with their Heavenly Father and a testimony of the gospel. As homeschoolers, I think it is really important that they have access to other adults who can mentor them in that journey. So I guess that is what is leading me to want them to stay with this teacher for the time they have. This teacher has no problem with admitting that she doesn't know everything, so "let's all of us figure this out together." Also, this problem of not feeling like you're learning anything at church doesn't go away when you get older or even when you grow up. It is something that they will struggle with their whole lives. But if we didn't go to Sunday school on that account, then we wouldn't have the service opportunities that have come to us through it. I want them to learn that this is what we do so that we can help others. Quote
Tracy Posted September 19, 2016 Author Posted September 19, 2016 I didn't mean to imply any sort of idea of "they aren't learning anything," or anything like that. I was really just trying to get a handle on what the end goal and purpose is. Sort of a "begin with the end in mind" kind of thing...knowing what you want to get out of it is helpful in trying to figure out how to guide modifications of curriculum. Ok, so, it looks like the goals are...Continue to develop their relationship with God, learn how to be in service to others...and then I confess that "a testimony of the gospel" does confuse me a bit....do you mean for them to have a very deep understanding of it, or to be able to share it with others well?" Or something else? A testimony, I suppose, is an extension of their relationship with God, a belief in the doctrine and a feeling that it is meaningful to oneself. We believe that everyone can and should discover the truth for himself (rather than just believing what our parents or church leaders tell us). Ultimately, I want my kids to feel comfortable asking the hard questions, and I want them to be able to struggle through to get answers to those questions. So, on the one hand, there is a certain amount of doing what is expected so we position ourselves to learn and to help others. But on the other hand, there should be room for individual questioning (and answering). Quote
La Condessa Posted September 26, 2016 Posted September 26, 2016 I think it's great that their teacher is looking to individualize the lessons to better help your kids. I think you should encourage her to read the new youth sunday school manual (Come Follow Me) and apply those methods to the lessons for your kids. There are some great resources for youth teachers on how to teach, rather than what, which I think would apply to your kids. Rather than just learning about the stories and how to make good choices, there is a strong focus on identifying underlying doctrine, making connections, considering deeper meaning, and applying what you learn to your life. There are even lists of specific ideas for how to go deeper in these ways. All of these methods could be applied to the lessons for the younger kids. https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/train/introduction?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/learning-teaching-ideas?lang=eng (look at the links down the left hand side of this page) She could also read the adult sunday school lesson on the same scriptures and pull in extra information on the same topic from there where applicable. 1 Quote
Tracy Posted September 27, 2016 Author Posted September 27, 2016 I think it's great that their teacher is looking to individualize the lessons to better help your kids. I think you should encourage her to read the new youth sunday school manual (Come Follow Me) and apply those methods to the lessons for your kids. There are some great resources for youth teachers on how to teach, rather than what, which I think would apply to your kids. Rather than just learning about the stories and how to make good choices, there is a strong focus on identifying underlying doctrine, making connections, considering deeper meaning, and applying what you learn to your life. There are even lists of specific ideas for how to go deeper in these ways. All of these methods could be applied to the lessons for the younger kids. https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/train/introduction?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/learning-teaching-ideas?lang=eng (look at the links down the left hand side of this page) She could also read the adult sunday school lesson on the same scriptures and pull in extra information on the same topic from there where applicable. Thank you very much. This is a great idea! Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.