Are dual-enrollment programs overpromising?

[Renai]

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2016/09/07/are-dual-enrollment-programs-overpromising.html?cmp=eml-eb-popweek+09092016web

 

I have my daughter in dual enrollment, but maybe for different reasons than most. I found this article talks about things that have been mentioned on this board quite a bit.

[regentrude]

My DD completed 32 college credits in high school, at the local four yearuniversity.

All credits would have transferred to a comparable school, and some of the credits could even have transferred to the extremely selective schol she attends.

However, she chose to take the more challenging honors physics at her final uni rather thamn relying on credit for the regular caclulus based physics course she tok while in high school, because she wants to learn. She could transfer io some upper level literature credit as elective, but with her double major and required core there is no need or room for additional electives. Her five semesters of French got her to a levle of proficiency that she could take a proficiency exam and have the foreign language requirement waived.

Had she chosen a different path, all credits would have transferred.

This was, however never our goal - we chose DE because it was the level of education she needed. At the uni she attends she can learn more - so for her it would not make sense to settle for the lower level she achieved at the public u while in high school, even if the school would take the credits.

 

Students and parents need to go into DE seeing eye's and do their research. If they want to use the credits, they should figure out beforehand whether the credits even count towards their major. Community colleges have acreditation agreements with universities. Universities have the requirements for their degrees available online. Different majors require classes of different levels in different subjects. This is all something one can, and should, figure out in advance if one is interesrted in using the credit.

 

ETA: I would be vary of a "college course" that is taught at the high school by  a high school teacher. This has much mroe potential of being rejected than a college course taken at a college or, even better, university.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

I read the article. The undergrad is from Dallas and she went to a college in New York. Whatever community college classes she took might have been transferable to a state university in Texas, but I won't expect a college outside Texas to have transfer agreements with community colleges outside the state it is in.

 

For example the community colleges in California has transferable credits agreements with UC and CSU campuses. There are guidance counselors in the CC to seek advice from. The information is also on the state universities website as well as community college brochures.

 

If my kid is set on engineering for example, I know which are the courses that would be transferable credit to UC and CSU. So he could take those.

 

Example of transfer agreements for California

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/transfer/general-education-igetc/index.html

[HomeAgain]

My son chose the DE path.  The very first thing he did was talk to a counselor at the 4-years he wanted to attend and ask if credits from X school transfer.  Any that didn't he would have CLEP'ed or taken AP, but every credit he has taken so far does. He will have at least 25 transferable credits when he graduates high school this year.

[Dmmetler]

If we end up staying here and going the DE at the local schools route, I have two goals in doing so-the first is to provide coursework an appropriate level for DD now, and the second to get appropriate level coursework for her in college wherever she goes. My guess is that many of the schools that would be less likely to accept DE credit will be those where most of the students coming in will already have had similar courses. What I don't want is for her to have to take the same level and content of class twice. 

 

 

[Lawana]

Ds is dual enrolled with the college portion taking place at a local 4year university. He is one of a few DE students in each of his three courses, the rest being regular college students. His plan is to live at home for his first two years while attending this same university and then transfer to either the flagship state or big name tech uni in state. So transferring credits from DE won't be an issue for him.

 

Without savings for college, this seems to be a reasonable way to make college affordable for him. We need him to stay in state to make use of the Zell Miller (lottery funded) scholarship.

[Guest]

The DE courses my children took were same quality as the host institution offered on its campus, same syllabus and text. In some cases, the teacher of the high school section also teaches an evening section at the college campus. DE is higher level than Regents.

 

The problem I have is the claim that one can save money because taking the course DE will shorten the time in college. It actually costs most people here more money, because they cant use the course towards their degree, or bc they would have tested out based on their SAT. They do not need the credit. Its a sham, and it appears to be a cash cow for the school district. Eta: if a student here chooses not to DE, he will have study hall. Most seniors have 4 study halls, as they dont need or cant afford the DE courses. No per pupil money will be spent to offer an equivalent class for just high school credit. So, ya want Trig, FL4, etc, you pony up.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[Renai]

As I mentioned, my dd is doing dual enrollment year, but the goal is not to transfer to university. She is simply more motivated to attend college than "do high school," and at this point in time, she doesn't see herself continuing school after she graduates, or at least get an associates. I'm pushing her to finish an associates. As many credits as possible will be done through DE. If she later decides to continue to university, great. Like an op, she can probably CLEP some credits rather than repeat non-transferrable credits. Since her associates may turn out to be an A.S., many credits wouldn't be transferrable anyway, except as an elective.

 

In our state, there are also transfer agreements between community colleges and state universities. They are clearly delineated, and they all have the same course number. It really takes the guesswork out when planning. 

 

So, I guess the point is, go in with eyes wide open.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Renai

[Lawana]

 

 

So, I guess the point is, go in with eyes wide open.

I agree with this. Similar to taking out student loans.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It probably works out fine if you take the courses at a CC and transfer them to a state U or some school the CC has articulation agreements with.  Otherwise yeah it is a hit or miss.  U of Rochester is a private university. 

[The Girls' Mom]

I think the problem lies with people not doing their research.  At our CC, classes that transfer to our state university are pretty well laid out.  You can find charts on several different websites that show transfer paths, and course transfer equivalencies. There is never a guarantee that all your classes will transfer to all schools, no matter what school you attend.  

 

For us, it isn't a waste of money at all because of the DE grants. In fact, it would cost me more for them to just take regular high school classes.  Transferability is just a bonus.  

[Kassia]

My son graduated from public high school with over 60 DE credits from community college and they transferred to our state flagship public university.  It was a great opportunity.  Because he was a public school student, all tuition and books were paid for.  My daughter is homeschooled and there is limited DE funding for homeschooled students.  She is taking 14 credits this year as a high school freshman and we will pay for part of that.  I plan on having her take more courses each year.  We have no idea what college she will end up attending, but we feel that the community college gives her opportunities that she doesn't have at home (she is taking Spanish right now and enjoys communicating with other students and the professor).  Next year, we plan on her taking chemistry there because we feel that's the best environment for chem labs.  It would be nice if the credits transferred, but the price is still equal or less expensive than outsourcing and I feel that the DE will look good on her high school transcript for a number of reasons.  She's very happy at the community college so far and there are great professors there.  

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

 She is simply more motivated to attend college than "do high school,"

 

This is my child. I was getting horrible pushback from her about work I assigned, but she's been doing her DE coursework without any complaints. Our zoned high school doesn't offer any honors coursework prior to 11th grade and also has problems with gangs, so it wasn't an option to send her. Private high school is not in the budget.

 

I'm insisting on her completing the requirements to transfer to a UC (or Cal State if she chooses a major not offered by UC). I'm not worried about whether private colleges will accept her credits because the selective schools that wouldn't don't offer merit aid and on paper we make too good of an income to qualify for need-based aid (even if the high CoL and medical/therapy bills for our disabled child means we can't actually afford the EFC that the FAFSA calculations spit out).

[Matryoshka]

I think the problem lies with people not doing their research.  At our CC, classes that transfer to our state university are pretty well laid out.  You can find charts on several different websites that show transfer paths, and course transfer equivalencies. There is never a guarantee that all your classes will transfer to all schools, no matter what school you attend.  

 

This.  If you're doing DE actually expecting to get college credits, you're probably going to have to plan on attending a state university with an articulation agreement.  Each of our State U's have an exhaustive chart as to which credits transfer to which courses at the 4-year.

 

If you want to go private or out-of-state, though, don't expect the credits to transfer much beyond the most basic courses, and for really exclusive unis, probably not even that.  I still think DE can be worth it just for high school - I also have one of those kids who didn't want to work for me, couldn't stand ps high school (she tried it), and is liking DE for high school much better.  In her particular case, she still wants to attend a state U because she knows the credits will transfer, but if she really wanted to go somewhere they didn't, that would be fine too.  

 

We pay 50% here for DE classes, and they are only on-campus at the CC - no such thing here as "DE at the high school".  That sounds fishy to me, honestly...

[JeanM]

My ds is taking an AP class through an online public school program since the local high school doesn't offer the class. The guidance counselor at the high school was pushing him to enroll in a program that would get him a state university credit for the class - this is purely a paperwork thing, no difference in the class. It would cost $75 though, while the AP class is free (except the AP exam). The thing is though, he knows where he is applying to college, and the dual enrollment is no better (generally worse) than the AP. So we saw no reason to pay the extra money.

 

I feel badly for students who are not as well-informed and believe the guidance counselor who tells them that it is a great idea. Most students who go to 4-year colleges from this high school go to the state U, which accepts the AP for credit.

[Arcadia]

I can't read the article, but is the question that they are overpromising or is it that parents are expecting their kids to be able to transfer wherever their they want without any research?

There were a few points raised, one point being overpromising.

 

Quoting some parts from the long article

 

"The Greater Texas Foundation, which awards scholarships to students in early-college high schools, where they can graduate with both diplomas and associate degrees, studied the experiences of 226 of its scholars. It found that while all their credits transferred, only 73 percent were accepted toward their major courses of study. As a result, most students didn't earn bachelor's degrees in two years as they had envisioned, "mainly due to credits earned that do not apply to chosen degree programs," the foundation said in its report last October."

 

"In a 2013 statement about President Barack Obama's initiatives to make college more affordable, the White House said: "Dual-enrollment opportunities let high school students earn credits before arriving at college, which can save them money by accelerating their time to degree."

 

"It's definitely being oversold," said Barmak Nassirian, the director of federal relations for the American Association of State Colleges and Universities. "The notion of promoting more rigorous work in high school is fabulous. The problem comes when you build on that the notion that it's a cheaper way of solving the vexing problem of college costs. It's coming from policymakers who are terrified about where to go next in reducing college costs.""

[Guest]

My ds is taking an AP class through an online public school program since the local high school doesn't offer the class. The guidance counselor at the high school was pushing him to enroll in a program that would get him a state university credit for the class - this is purely a paperwork thing, no difference in the class. It would cost $75 though, while the AP class is free (except the AP exam). The thing is though, he knows where he is applying to college, and the dual enrollment is no better (generally worse) than the AP. So we saw no reason to pay the extra money.

 

I feel badly for students who are not as well-informed and believe the guidance counselor who tells them that it is a great idea. Most students who go to 4-year colleges from this high school go to the state U, which accepts the AP for credit.

One possible advantage of DE for some students, over APs of similar content, is that it can allow a younger or anxious student to dip a toe into the college class experience and work requirements without having to take a full course load. There are plenty of kids for who don't have this issue, but the advantage of easing into college instead of quick immersion culture shock, especially for those who aren't being well served by high school structure or content, is a big one :)

[Matryoshka]

There were a few points raised, one point being overpromising.

 

Quoting some parts from the long article

 

"The Greater Texas Foundation, which awards scholarships to students in early-college high schools, where they can graduate with both diplomas and associate degrees, studied the experiences of 226 of its scholars. It found that while all their credits transferred, only 73 percent were accepted toward their major courses of study. As a result, most students didn't earn bachelor's degrees in two years as they had envisioned, "mainly due to credits earned that do not apply to chosen degree programs," the foundation said in its report last October."

 

I do think it's oversold if it's being touted as some magic bullet to cut 2 full years off a 4-year degree.  The only way that's going to happen is if you already know what your major is when you start the DE program, and only take courses that will count towards it.  The exact same thing happens if you graduate high school at the normal time and attend CC to get an Associate's and transfer.  You will still have more than 2 years at the 4-year unless you took exactly the right courses to transfer into your chosen major (and don't change your mind about it).

 

I am not expecting either of my kids who've done DE to take less than 4 years to finish.  They might (one came in with 51 credits between DE, AP, and CLEP, the other could have over 60 - she'll have 23 at the end of this semester, and she just started last spring) - but I'm also fine with them using the 'extra' time for a double major, a semester or even year abroad, or to just have had the time to try things out.  If younger dd sticks with what she thinks she currently wants, she'll have 7 or 8 classes toward the double-major she's planning, plus all of her Gen-Eds...  if she does and chooses her classes carefully, she could finish early - but, she's 15, she could change her mind, and that's okay.  Nice to have her try things out now, and not take 5-6 years at the 4-year like many kids who change course...

[G5052]

Yes, I've had friends whose kids did dual enrollment gripe about this.

 

But the reality is that colleges have always been very picky about transfer credit. When I transferred from a private liberal arts school to a state STEM school 35 years ago, they kept all of my humanities classes and threw out all of the science and math. They also accepted ZERO of my AP credits. 

 

I guess that people think that if it's college-level via dual enrollment or AP, then it's taken anywhere. It just doesn't work that way.

[Guest]

Each of my three college boys took DE at our local CC.

 

Ds#1 transferred his credits to an in-state private college, no problems.

 

Ds#2 transferred his credits to an out-of-state private college, no problems.

 

Ds#3 transferred his credits to an in-state public college, no problems.

 

But we did our homework and knew what was what. It's really not difficult.

[Renai]

  It would be nice if the credits transferred, but the price is still equal or less expensive than outsourcing and I feel that the DE will look good on her high school transcript for a number of reasons.  

 

I found this to be the case for us as well. Even when we thought the cc classes would all come out of pocket, it was still cheaper than paying for high school courses online. It is an extra special bonus that dual enrollment is free for homeschoolers. We only pay fees and books. The push-back another pp mentioned is the same issue I'm getting here, so DE is the best option for dd to finish her high school credits, with the potential of transferability if she decides to continue on.

[Teachaheart]

***Snip***

 

We pay 50% here for DE classes, and they are only on-campus at the CC - no such thing here as "DE at the high school". That sounds fishy to me, honestly...

I think it can be fishy if the courses are taught by regular high school teachers with little to no experience teaching post-secondary courses. However, I am a college professor, and I am currently teaching English 101 in a local high school as an early college class. I use the same syllabus and textbooks and require the same coursework with at least the same standards but sometimes higher given the extremely driven nature and high abilities of the kind of students who choose to take early college classes. These classes used to only be available on the main campus, but moving them into the high schools has created more opportunities for the students who have the ability and desire for early college but not the transportation between the schools and main campus. Although the school where I'm teaching this semester is on a main busline straight to campus, it would take over an hour each way, which really does not work with the high school class schedule.

 

Another local high school, where I taught English 101 and 102 a couple years ago, has a middle college program. The students in that program begin college classes (at the high school) and simultaneously complete high school and an associates degree if they finish the whole program. For many of these students, college would not otherwise be an option, and it opens up opportunities for scholarships available only to college juniors and seniors.

 

There are certainly still some drawbacks. In addition to possibly not being able to transfer the credits, the students don't have the opportunity to interact with other students at the college, and given the rather limited experiences of many of the students, they could benefit from such interactions. In the end though, I think that when done well, early college/middle college classes in the high school can be very good.

[Kassia]

I do think it's oversold if it's being touted as some magic bullet to cut 2 full years off a 4-year degree.  The only way that's going to happen is if you already know what your major is when you start the DE program, and only take courses that will count towards it.  The exact same thing happens if you graduate high school at the normal time and attend CC to get an Associate's and transfer.  You will still have more than 2 years at the 4-year unless you took exactly the right courses to transfer into your chosen major (and don't change your mind about it).

 

I am not expecting either of my kids who've done DE to take less than 4 years to finish.  They might (one came in with 51 credits between DE, AP, and CLEP, the other could have over 60 - she'll have 23 at the end of this semester, and she just started last spring) - but I'm also fine with them using the 'extra' time for a double major, a semester or even year abroad, or to just have had the time to try things out.  If younger dd sticks with what she thinks she currently wants, she'll have 7 or 8 classes toward the double-major she's planning, plus all of her Gen-Eds...  if she does and chooses her classes carefully, she could finish early - but, she's 15, she could change her mind, and that's okay.  Nice to have her try things out now, and not take 5-6 years at the 4-year like many kids who change course...

 

My son who finished high school with over 60 DE credits will take the full 4 years to earn his B.S.  He is an engineering major and the engineering courses are sequential, so it would have been difficult for him to finish early.  The benefit of having so many credits has been that he was able to take a lighter course load each semester (12-15 credits instead of 15-18) and he will also graduate with a minor.  Having fewer classes each semester meant that he could focus on them more and his high grades earned him significant scholarships.  

[Matryoshka]

My son who finished high school with over 60 DE credits will take the full 4 years to earn his B.S.  He is an engineering major and the engineering courses are sequential, so it would have been difficult for him to finish early.  The benefit of having so many credits has been that he was able to take a lighter course load each semester (12-15 credits instead of 15-18) and he will also graduate with a minor.  Having fewer classes each semester meant that he could focus on them more and his high grades earned him significant scholarships.  

 

This is similar to what's going to happen with my CompSci major dd who went to ps for high school - she doesn't have any DE, but she did get a good amount of credit for APs, and the English CLEP gave her 6 credits (as much as a 5 on the AP would have...).  But the two APs that could seemingly have accelerated her coursework (CompSci and Physics C) aren't giving her any advantage - their intro CompSci is in C, not Java, so they strongly don't recommend skipping, and her high school Physics C AP teacher was not competent so she really wanted to take Physics again at the uni, even though she got a 4 on the test.  But she will be able to either take a reduced load, or maybe even fit a semester abroad in (hard to do with a CompSci major), or take more interesting electives than basic GenEds.  Her advisor told her she was on track to graduate a semester early, but I'm not sure that's even a good idea.  She'll take it a semester at a time...

Edited September 9, 2016 by Matryoshka

[MarkT]

I think it can be fishy if the courses are taught by regular high school teachers with little to no experience teaching post-secondary courses. However, I am a college professor, and I am currently teaching English 101 in a local high school as an early college class. I use the same syllabus and textbooks and require the same coursework with at least the same standards but sometimes higher given the extremely driven nature and high abilities of the kind of students who choose to take early college classes. These classes used to only be available on the main campus, but moving them into the high schools has created more opportunities for the students who have the ability and desire for early college but not the transportation between the schools and main campus. Although the school where I'm teaching this semester is on a main busline straight to campus, it would take over an hour each way, which really does not work with the high school class schedule.

 

Another local high school, where I taught English 101 and 102 a couple years ago, has a middle college program. The students in that program begin college classes (at the high school) and simultaneously complete high school and an associates degree if they finish the whole program. For many of these students, college would not otherwise be an option, and it opens up opportunities for scholarships available only to college juniors and seniors.

 

There are certainly still some drawbacks. In addition to possibly not being able to transfer the credits, the students don't have the opportunity to interact with other students at the college, and given the rather limited experiences of many of the students, they could benefit from such interactions. In the end though, I think that when done well, early college/middle college classes in the high school can be very good.

This is more common than you would think. Local high schools here offer these through the CC but the instructor (teacher) has to be qualified by the CC or they can't offer the class.  So when Mrs Jones retires, English 101 might go with her.

 

The students get CC transcripts.

[Carrie12345]

People really need to research.  (I know we're a special group of research fanatics and all, but that IS what's needed.)

 

My dd is on her 2nd DE course, and technically doesn't start 9th grade until Monday.  But, for us, it isn't about getting through college faster or cheaper.  She may not even go to college after high school!  If she does, these specific two courses aren't likely to transfer anywhere but our area schools, and only as GE electives. They were exciting opportunities for her special interests and improving her academic skills.

 

We do have plans to continue with some DE and AP courses, possibly some CLEP, particularly if she leans toward CC.  (Our CC tuition is stupid high.) I'll be very happy for an additional return on those investments, but my focus and purpose is a strong education for these next 4 years.

[MarkT]

People really need to research.  (I know we're a special group of research fanatics and all, but that IS what's needed.)

 

 

:lol:

[Serenade]

I also think that some colleges and universities don't go out of their way to accept DE because it can mean that they bill fewer hours themselves. 

[Haiku]

I also think that some colleges and universities don't go out of their way to accept DE because it can mean that they bill fewer hours themselves.

I made this point in another thread, and I was assured that was NOT the case ...

 

But I think it is.

[regentrude]

I also think that some colleges and universities don't go out of their way to accept DE because it can mean that they bill fewer hours themselves. 

 

I doubt this is true, since the entities that decide credit equivalency are not the same who are involved in financial decisions, nor do they benefit from increased enrollment.

If a student petitions our department or the registrar to accept a course taken elsewhere for credit because it is outside the accreditation agreement, the professor teaching the equivalent course will review the syllabus and supporting materials and decide whether the course is, in fact, equivalent and should receive credit. The faculty member making this decision does not benefit from denying, nor does the academic department, since - contrary to popular belief - the department funding is in no way proportional to the number of students enrolled in courses.

To put it simply: If I decide credit should be granted because the other course was equivalent, I'd have less work because I'd have one less student. It would not make a penny difference to my salary or to my department's budget.

For many subjects, if the student has acquired mastery of the subject in whatever matter, he can request credit by examination and test out without incurring any cost. In my 15 years of teaching, I had 4 or 5 students avail themselves of that option.

Edited September 10, 2016 by regentrude

[Renai]

Regentrude, I see what you are saying, but I also see that colleges/universities have minimum number of credit hours to get a degree through them and/or a maximum number of credits they will allow for transfer. Wouldn't the acceptance of DE come into play there?

[GoodGrief]

My two oldest both did dual enrollment to some extent. I do think it's foolish to enter dual enrollment for the sole purpose of earning early college credit toward a degree. Sometimes that will work out, sometimes it won't.

 

The student should do it because that route makes the most sense for earning that particular high school credit. If they ultimately get college credit too, that's the cherry on top.

 

I do understand why some schools are reluctant to accept credits. There's a lack of standardization, and quality does vary.

 

Dual enrollment (at a local non-selective private university) for my oldest (entering her senior year) did result in about a year's worth of college credit toward a degree at an out-of-state flagship university. It was super helpful when she became ill and ultimately missed a quarter. It also allowed her to complete required math and science courses in a classroom with an extremely low student-prof ratio, and skip the huge lecture hall courses at the university. There was no way to know ahead of time that it would play out that way though.

 

On the other hand, my new college freshman is looking at very little benefit from her dual enrollment math or foreign language classes (from our local large public university that functions as a community college)  at her highly selective private university. She won't be able to move ahead with her AP credits for the most part either. Doing those things wasn't a waste though. They got her through her high school program, and no doubt helped with college admissions.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Gr8lander

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Regentrude, I see what you are saying, but I also see that colleges/universities have minimum number of credit hours to get a degree through them and/or a maximum number of credits they will allow for transfer. Wouldn't the acceptance of DE come into play there?

 

I think this is pretty reasonable, given the fact that a school does have a brand that costs time, effort and money to build.  If someone could attend Sand Island Community College for 3.5 years and then transfer to MIT for the last semester, it would not really represent a graduate with an MIT education.

[regentrude]

Regentrude, I see what you are saying, but I also see that colleges/universities have minimum number of credit hours to get a degree through them and/or a maximum number of credits they will allow for transfer. Wouldn't the acceptance of DE come into play there?

 

I don't think so. Typically, college require that you must complete 60 hours, or 50% of the work, through their institution if you want their name on your degree. I find this perfectly reasonable. A person who completes  the majority the coursework at some other institution should not receive the degree from the institution where only a small portion of the coursework was completed. You can't go to CC, complete 9 semesters, and then get a degree from a higher ranking school because you took a few senior classes there. The school name on the degree stands for the quality of the education and is significant to employers; accepting too much credit from another source waters down the branding. If I were an employer and hiring a graduate based on the reputation of his school, I would want to be able to be certain that the majority of the eduction was, in fact, completed at that school. Because, even where credit may transfer: not all colleges are created equal.

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by regentrude

[Carrie12345]

I don't think so. Typically, college require that you must complete 60 hours, or 50% of the work, through their institution if you want their name on your degree. I find this perfectly reasonable. A person who completes  the majority the coursework at some other institution should not receive the degree from the institution where only a small portion of the coursework was completed. You can't go to CC, complete 9 semesters, and then get a degree from a higher ranking school because you took a few senior classes there. The school name on the degree stands for the quality of the education and is significant to employers; accepting too much credit from another source waters down the branding. If I were an employer and hiring a graduate based on the reputation of his school, I would want to be able to be certain that the majority of the eduction was, in fact, completed at that school. Because, even where credit may transfer: not all colleges are created equal.

 

 

Are there very many CCs where that's even an implied option?  None of the ones I'm familiar with offer 300/400-level courses.

[regentrude]

Are there very many CCs where that's even an implied option?  None of the ones I'm familiar with offer 300/400-level courses.

 

Then substitute "CC" with any name of an institution of lower academic rigor than the final college.

Edited September 10, 2016 by regentrude

[angela in ohio]

Both of my daughters did DE in high school. One went to a university that accepted none, one to a university that accepted all but a few of the credits (she entered with 50+ credits.) It was definitely something we knew ahead of time when they were making choices. I find it funny that authors of articles like these feel they have to find the people who were "shocked to find out..." :D

 

We didn't do it for the transfer credits, we did it because it was one way (as an alternate to AP) of making dc competitive enough to get into the selective schools they wanted to attend. This is true for many students, but I rarely see articles acknowledge this. DD's chosen school accepting the credits was icing. It was the only school on her list that would, and it wasn't a determining factor in her choice to go there.

 

It is not true, at least in this area, that "most" are taught by high school teachers. There is one public high school in our county, out of 10+ high schools, which has DE courses on-site. The rest send students to the local CC. We found in many applications colleges asked specifically if DE courses were taught on a HS campus and whether they were only open to HS students. Colleges know the difference.

 

I'm as much of a skeptic as anyone else, but I really don't think colleges deny transfer credits as a money grab. Like the girl in the article (and my dd), many people still spend their four years and just get a minor or double major instead of leaving early. Even aside from that, I think that it is about making sure that students are prepared for upper-level courses. It takes a lot of resources to support a struggling student who had a poor CC course and then is flailing in the upper level classes in that sequence. Not to mention the lower chance of retaining that student and making sure they graduate successfully. What I have seen at dd's college is a periodic and thorough evaluation of the local CC courses and much discernment in which to accept credit for or not. I guess it depends on whether your child attends a school with any selectivity, too, because a school with any rejection rate or waiting list can just use that spot for someone else if your dc graduates early.

 

 

 

 

[angela in ohio]

My son who finished high school with over 60 DE credits will take the full 4 years to earn his B.S.  He is an engineering major and the engineering courses are sequential, so it would have been difficult for him to finish early.  The benefit of having so many credits has been that he was able to take a lighter course load each semester (12-15 credits instead of 15-18) and he will also graduate with a minor.  Having fewer classes each semester meant that he could focus on them more and his high grades earned him significant scholarships.  

 

This is my second dd's experience. She has options - minors, endorsements, semesters abroad, joining more clubs, getting better grades - that she wouldn't have if she was trying to knock out an engineering degree, with all of its prereqs, in four years.

[mschickie]

Every school has a different policy.  I know the U of R is one of those schools that does not take transfer credit in your major.  They also do not take CLEP.  I am pretty sure they do some AP credit but probably not in your major or minor.  U of R can be tough.

[happycc]

Everyone says do your research.....

Can someone send me the steps you took to do so. 

Whom did you speak with ?

What questions did you ask?

 

Edited November 1, 2016 by happycc

[regentrude]

Everyone says do your research.....

Can someone send me the steps you took to do so. 

Whom did you speak with ?

What questions did you ask?

 

In most cases, you don't have to speak to anybody. Most info is readily available online.

 

Articulation agreements about transfer of credits for classes taken elsewhere are available on the colleges' website.

Same goes for their policies to grant credit for AP and CLEP.

 

Degree requirements, i.e. lists of courses required for a specific major are listed online, probably under the individual department. So, for example, one can find out that a physics degree would require calculus based physics and thus AP Physics 1+2 would not fulfill degree requirements.

If only course numbers are listed, the Course Catalog (which you probably find at the registrar's page) will list course descriptions of every class. The Schedule of Classes typically only has what is offered in a given semester.

 

For specific questions, contact the Registrar; for more specific questions the academic department and direct the question to the undergraduate advisor (department chair would work, too)

Edited November 1, 2016 by regentrude

[Guest]

Articulation agreements about transfer of credits for classes taken elsewhere are available on the colleges' website.

Same goes for their policies to grant credit for AP and CLEP.

For specific questions, contact the registrar; for more specific questions the academic department.

Yes, this. We looked first at articulation agreements on the CC's website. Then we looked at the gaining universities' websites. It was all right out there in the open, you just have to go looking for it.

[Jann in TX]

My middle dd had 28 credit hours after DE at our local community college when she graduated our homeschool.

Our CC is great-- when we registered her the advisor asked about any preference for 4-year universities and gave us the transfer agreement (list of courses that would transfer for full credit).  She also provided us with the course list for dd's degree options so we could easily see what courses were needed...

 

Besides saving us $$$ (at the time DE was only $40 per course!!), these extra hours allowed dd to change majors 4 times, take a semester off, and still graduate (with honors!!) 4 years later!

 

DD attended 2 state universities-- all DE credits accepted.

[Guest]

One does need to confirm with the U advisor about transferability. Ds found 2 courses he wanted to take in summer session from CC. They do transfer for credit, but they are not accepted for the major -- too lite. Had he not conferred with his advisor in advance, he would have been out $ and wasted his summer.

[PeterPan]

In addition to searching for articulation agreements and the university websites, try Transferology. 

 

One of the Universities we've been looking at for ds linked Transferology on it's Transfer Student page. It's a free account. You list the courses taken at the cc (or CLEP/AP/IB) and it finds University matches.  

 

*not all colleges participate

 

This.  It's really not mysterious.  You go to Transferology and see how it will transfer.  You can even do the reverse, thinking through course requirements you'd like to nail early for their freshman year, and work backward, finding courses online or in your state that will transfer in to fill that spot at that school.  

 

States like ours that are paying for DE for everyone also have laws making sure they transfer between state schools.  

 

When we chose my dd's DE courses, we gave up entirely on the closer, local school that we *thought* we were going to use.  They're a very nice school with a good reputation and strong courses, but they did not transfer well, per Transferology, to the school dd wants to get into. We did the math, figured it out, and she's doing her work online using a mix of schools.  It's really not hard to figure out and make a reasonable game plan.

[dirty ethel rackham]

We don't have much of a formal dual-enrollment program in our area high schools.  Only a few business classes, taught at the high school ... not sure if the instructors are high school or CC teachers.  These schools have tons of AP.  We have a local LAC that has an early scholars program that offers a significant discount from their rather pricey tuition, which makes it comparable to the community college.  There is no discount for high schoolers taking classes in our area.  Our community college is a pretty good one that has lots of classes with articulation agreements.  The LAC has fewer but it is on a quarter system, which may impact those. 

 

We chose DE (as well as AP) to provide classes with appropriate rigor and quality instruction.  That was our primary goal.  Our secondary goal was to create a strong transcript so that our kids would be good candidates for acceptance at the schools they were interested in with enough merit money to make it doable.  Anything else was gravy.  That said, my oldest had 56 credit hours from high school from transfer and AP, even though there were areas that the school said they didn't take outside classes.  This allowed ds to graduate in 3.5 years and add a minor in an unrelated field as well as have relatively easier semesters.  My second had 60 credit hours transfer.  Some of the classes did not replace classes at the school, nor did they fulfill the gen eds we were expecting them to.