s/o grammar thread-- what is the point of diagramming?

[maize]

I'm a language person--I love words and their many uses, I've taken graduate courses in literature and writing, I achieved perfect scores on the English sections of the SAT, ACT, GRE, etc.. I speak several languages fluently.

 

I'm good at language.

 

I never learned to diagram, and when I've looked into it to see if it is something useful to teach my children, I see no practical purpose to it.

 

So I'm curious--why diagram? What do people see in it that I am missing?

Edited September 8, 2016 by maize

[mamiof5]

Following this, as diagramming is getting harder for dd and I don't know exactly what the purpose is either :-P

[SierraNevada]

I wonder the same thing. I was a writer type. I learned another language. I got very high scores on the ACT and GRE in English. And yet, I never had a grammar class, ever. The most I ever did with grammar involved identifing nouns, verbs, and adj. I'm pretty sure the word predicate never came up in my schooling. Now I'm teaching my child diagramming through MCT. I am learning right beside him. I often am not sure of the answer. I don't know the purpose behind it. I think as I learned a second language I was clueless what the word types were...infinitive, etc. but I figured it out contextually anyway. I told my son the other day it will help him as he learns a second language. It will help him be a better writer. However, I don't think it necessary. Some people don't need the direct grammar instruction to write well or to learn another language.

[Shred Betty]

Following! No input for OP so sorry :)

[OneStepAtATime]

I never needed diagramming, either, and got a near perfect score on the language side of the SAT and did well in all my writing classes without ever diagramming.  However, I think for some kids having things broken down in that way does help them and for others having that sort of systematic analysis is interesting, even soothing to some people.

 

But nope, so far I don't see that diagramming is necessary for every single student on the planet to be a good writer/have a good grasp of language.  For many we seem to just basically intuit the language through exposure.

 

Maybe someone will respond with a different view.  I am curious.

[momacacia]

I feel this way about English grammar in general. Lol.

[maize]

I feel this way about English grammar in general. Lol.

I tend to agree. We all learn the grammar--real grammar, not labels and analysis--of our native language naturally. It's part of learning to speak and understand and is completely intuitive to almost everyone.

 

I think learning the basic parts of speech is useful, being able to name nouns and verbs and adjectives etc. Learning standard usage and mechanics of written English is useful.

 

I strongly suspect that grammar analysis is an artifact left over from the days when education was synonymous with learning Latin as a dead language taught through analytical grammar.

 

Even in France, where verb conjugations and subject/object/verb agreement are a significant part of language arts instruction through middle school I don't remember diagramming. "Grammar" instruction there was really mostly about spelling--of course native French speakers don't need to be taught oral conjugations, they just have to learn the proper spelling of each as so many of the endings sound the same but are spelled differently.

[Guest]

My husband is convinced the purpose is to make mathy students feel successful at the hodgepodge that is English :lol: The rules and systematic way it is approached soothed his little geek heart.

 

I'm another who scored extremely well on my SAT verbal without doing much, if any, diagramming of sentences. With my own kids I am teaching a happy medium via Treasured Conversations, which I think hits the sweet spot of the kiddos having enough tools in their writing toolbox to be successful without belaboring the grammar points divorced from their usefulness in application.

[fralala]

I agree about diagramming. I never learned it. I just read and read and read instead, and got perfect scores on the SAT (many, many years back!).

 

But every so often, my mother will ask me, "Don't you want me to show you how to diagram a sentence? It was my favorite part of school! It's so fun! I still can't believe they didn't teach you that in school!"

[Guest]

My husband is convinced the purpose is to make mathy students feel successful at the hodgepodge that is English :lol: The rules and systematic way it is approached soothed his little geek heart.

 

.

 

I agree with him.

 

It's not really for  people that are naturally adept with words. I know a hundred people will come and tell me they are excellent writers and they love diagramming, etc.

 

But I still maintain that diagramming is beneficial for people who have little intuitive sense for language, whether because their minds just don't run along those lines naturally, or because they have LDs, or whatever the reason.

 

It also probably helps you take stupid, pointless tests about grammar that are in no way applicable to any real life application of grammar.

 

I am not, as a rule, opposed to the rules of writing fwiw. I think more than half the time (lol) people breaking the rules don't do it well enough and the willy-nilly  stream of consciousness style writing is for forums and blog posts, only :laugh:

 

I just don't think diagramming helps everyone internalize and utilize those rules.

[Ethel Mertz]

75% of DS's grammar instruction this year is diagramming. We're using Drawing Sentences: A Guide to Diagramming by Eugene R. Moutoux. The book works through each part of speech and incorporates it into the diagramming assignment. DS loves diagramming and it helps the grammar stick in his head better.

[Guest]

 DS loves diagramming and it helps the grammar stick in his head better.

 

Why do you think that is?

 

It seems to me that diagramming would be helpful for kids that are good at puzzles. This piece can only go here, if that piece is there, etc.

 

I have a super puzzle kid!

 

What do you think?

[Ethel Mertz]

Why do you think that is?

 

It seems to me that diagramming would be helpful for kids that are good at puzzles. This piece can only go here, if that piece is there, etc.

 

I have a super puzzle kid!

 

What do you think?

 

I think that's exactly right. It's another style of learning and would work for a very visual kid and also for those who like logic. DS spends 3 days a week on the diagramming and 1 day using Editor-in-Chief.

[Guest]

I think that's exactly right. It's another style of learning and would work for a very visual kid and also for those who like logic. DS spends 3 days a week on the diagramming and 1 day using Editor-in-Chief.

 

:thumbup1:  Thanks!

[OneStepAtATime]

I think that's exactly right. It's another style of learning and would work for a very visual kid and also for those who like logic. DS spends 3 days a week on the diagramming and 1 day using Editor-in-Chief.

I hate that I can't like Moderator's posts...grumble, grumble, grumble.  "Like" Ethel Mertz. I appreciate the perspective.  That makes sense.  

[Reefgazer]

I am also a verbally intuitive person, and managed high scores, great grades, and managed great writing with virtually no grammar instruction. But not everyone is a verbally intuitive person, and grammar can help a verbally struggling person see structure and logic in a sentence. I think it is helpful for persons such as this.

[FloridaLisa]

I'm a language person--I love words and their many uses, I've taken graduate courses in literature and writing, I achieved perfect scores on the English sections of the SAT, ACT, GRE, etc.. I speak several languages fluently.

 

I'm good at language.

 

I never learned to diagram, and when I've looked into it to see if it is something useful to teach my children, I see no practical purpose to it.

 

So I'm curious--why diagram? What do people see in it that I am missing?

 

Maize, you likely picked up intuitively what is taught in grammar. Much like a child can be a great early reader without going through phonics b/c they figure out the patterns themselves. Or a child that intuitively writes well without something like IEW that breaks it down into a formal structure for those kids who need the scaffolding on which to build their paragraphs and essays. 

 

I love diagramming -- I'm in the studying and teaching 1 Peter and diagramming is sooo helpful for me to break down those dense sentences with multiple clauses so I can make sure I'm as accurate as possible with the text. I actually love oral parsing even more but I found that not as helpful when the sentences are more complex. 

[newhsmom]

I recently read an interesting article on which learners can benefit from diagramming.  

 

 http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/taming-sentences/?_r=0

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Why do you think that is?

 

It seems to me that diagramming would be helpful for kids that are good at puzzles. This piece can only go here, if that piece is there, etc.

 

I have a super puzzle kid!

 

What do you think?

Yup. I think my puzzle boy will love it as well. It's orderly and solvable :p

[Momto6inIN]

I'm a word lover and I love to diagram. It's soothing to my little OCD brain to have all the words in their proper place. :lol:

 

I teach it to my kids because I tell them that if they can break a sentence down into its individual parts, then they will be better able to do the reverse and to construct a sentence too. And because it's good mental exercise. And because I heard one time that a college writing professor told her students that if their high school teachers had not taught them diagramming that they had failed them as a teacher. I realize that not everything I read on the Internet is true ;) ... but I didn't want to be in that group, I'm insecure enough as a homeschooler as it is. :)

 

My kids weren't buying my arguments and were grumbling all the way, until my oldest DS suddenly realized - on his own! - while he was reading the New Testament that without knowing which clause was modifying which word he would have no idea what in the world Paul was saying (Paul was kind of overboard on clauses, or at least the KJV translators were lol) and he diagrammed the sentence and figured out the meaning of the passage. It was a breakthrough moment at our house! :)

 

ETA: I definitely don't think that it's an essential component to anyone's education, despite what the professor I heard about said. :) I was just responding to the OP about why I teach it.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Momto5inIN

[Rosie_0801]

I'm teaching diagramming for the reasons OkBud and Elthel Mertz said. Dd is 9 and her internal grammar mechanism is still in a box, in pieces ,on the floor of her internal garage.

 

It is kind of the same method that has been successful with teaching her maths, so hopefully it will help here too!

[Bluegoat]

I think it can be fun, but really it is just one kind of visual aid to help a person analyze language.  I consider it to be equivalent to parsing a sentence.  I learned how to do that first as a latin student in university, so it comes more naturally to me than diagramming.  I also find it adequate for my needs and simpler to learn.

 

Diagramming is funny - on the one hand it isn't as simple to learn, but I am not sure it really shows much more.  To use it for complex problems, you really need to know the grammar already, or you can't even set up the diagram.  So, I don't see it as very helpful.  And I notice also that linguists don't use it, it doesn't seem to be adequate for their more complex needs.  So I feel it falls a bit in a no-man's land.

 

I think it makes some sense though if you consider that it was essentially a Victorian thing - it fits in with that Victorian desire to catalogue everything and fit it together just so. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rose]

I tried to skip formal grammar but came to regret it. My older children are using R&S 4 right now to catch up. I found that my boy in particular needed systematic instruction because he's just not natural with language. I now can use the basic knowledge that he's aquired to help him see why a sentence is a run-on sentence and why a comma is needed. There are other errors in his writing that I've been able to help him understand. The actual diagramming is just a visual means of reaching this goal but I suppose that any grammar program would probably do the trick. The diagramming appeals to me because it shows the children that grammar is orderly. It's like math; there's only one right answer and there is always an answer. Teaching grammar without diagramming would kind-of be like doing math verbally or without the equals sign. It's possible but just less concrete feeling.

[Bluegoat]

Something to keep in mind, diagramming was only ever used much in the US, and it's popularity was really short-lived in the great scheme of things, only about 60 years.

 

People managed to teach and show grammar before that and outside of the US.

 

 

[lllll]

nm

Edited November 5, 2016 by cathey

[Rosie_0801]

 

We did plenty of diagramming in our hs'ing, so I asked one of my grown (college) kids about diagramming.  This is her reply ... fwiw ...  (and I would still do just as much diagramming if I had it to do over again):

 

 

Awwww. Your dd doesn't also study Arabic, does she? I'm dying to find someone who can write FLL for English speakers learning Arabic! I even have a publisher!

[Wolf Pack]

I don't understand the point of it either. Especially in your kids who are better off learning the feel of the English language by being exposed to good literature. I'm doing rod and staff 3 with my 2nd grader (1st grader is tagging along) and I'm just skipping the diagramming. It seemed like busywork for them. We might learn the basics of diagramming when they're older, but for now I'm skipping it. I never learned it myself, so I'll be learning with them. To be honest, I don't have much interest in it though.....haha.

 

We're enjoying learning about subjects and predicates right now though. I made up a mad libs type game where everyone contributes random subjects and predicates and then we link them together to make silly sentences. Things like "batman poops in the meadow." English lessons with little kids. What can I say! Lol!

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Diagramming is probably no more or less useful than drawing a lot of arrows.  :-)  Personaly, I really like it.  You can use diagramming even before you've really memorized all your parts of speech down pat, because it is relatively intuitive.  It can be helpful for teasing out the subtle difference between:

 

The dog is barking in the yard.

and

The dog in the yard is barking.  

 

That is, "in the yard" by be serving an adverbial role, or it might be serving a adjectival role...  so let'd discuss where to "hang it" in the diagram.  But arrows would work too.  I think it's simply a great visual option for those who like to see things mapped out.  

[deerforest]

Diagramming definitely solidified grammar for my DD. We loved our years with MCT, but even their 4-level analysis didn't quite make it stick. She is analytical by nature and breaking everything down and seeing their connections on a nearly kinetic level really resonated with her. Her own writing skills skyrocketed too.

 

I manage a team of a dozen writers and some days I wish I could ask them to diagram their sentences to understand why they don't quite work!

[Penelope]

I don't think diagramming is necessary, but for a visual person, it illustrates clauses and modifiers very well. All the rules about how to draw the stems probably aren't necessary to get the gist of diagramming, but the basic idea of it is helpful.

 

I dont think I have ever heard anyone claim that diagramming would improve SAT scores, though. Until a few years ago, there was really no grammar on the SAT, anyway, and even now, I haven't seen any grammar on it that would be helped by learning to diagram sentences. But there are many things I consider important for my children's education, and most of them aren't directly related to college entrance exams. And I am convinced that everyone should study grammar, whether or not they diagram and regardless of whether it affects their SAT score. I have seen a lot of writing where students don't even see how their sentences aren't grammatically correct, and don't know how to fix them.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by cathey

[mamiof5]

We are finishing R&S4 with one of our dds. I never learned diagramming, it's not easy. Diagrams are getting more complicated...but so far she's ganging in there. We'll see :-)

[J-rap]

I think that for some people, diagramming sets up the structure on which to understand syntax.

 

I used a little diagramming with my five children, and I don't know if it was really helpful or not.

 

But when my dh had to learn language again after a devastating brain injury which completely wiped away all knowledge of language, diagramming was the key to understanding syntax again.  Like the skeletal frame on which to build the body.   

 

So, I'm not sure what that says about it exactly, except that for some people, it's a very helpful framework.

[HS Mom in NC]

Diagramming shows sentence structure visually.  Sometimes it's usefulness is lost on people who are more auditory and verbal.  Diagramming is also an exercise in logic. While people who get writing more intuitively may not value it much, people who want or need to see the logic of it laid out get something out of it.  For example, if you're not prone to placing prepositional phrases or phrases and clauses in the wrong place, then you may wonder what all the fuss is about.  If you are prone to it, diagramming can often help you see where they go.

Yes, even people who are considered good writers can benefit from it.  My brother asked me to do our eulogies for our grandparents together and I had to combine what we had outlined and partially done on our own into one cohesive piece. I found that diagramming out side by side two complex sentences written by two different people was a very helpful way to see them in a new way so I could break them down and rework them into something that flowed more naturally.  Anytime a sentence doesn't work, diagramming it out can potentially help pinpoint both the problem and the solution.

It's hard to know if something is potentially useful when you've never used it before. Advanced writing can benefit from advanced diagramming, but few people were taught it at that level, if at all. Many LA materials give such simple sentences so they can check off the diagramming box and then drop it all together, that most students don't really get to the point where it's useful.

It's not a substitute for reading and listening to literature read aloud. 

[angela in ohio]

It's hard to know if something is potentially useful when you've never used it before. Advanced writing can benefit from advanced diagramming, but few people were taught it at that level, if at all. Many LA materials give such simple sentences so they can check off the diagramming box and then drop it all together, that most students don't really get to the point where it's useful.

 

I agree with this. It's hard to tell what you've missed if you don't know it in the first place.

 

It's true of so many things we learn: Latin, logic, diagramming. You don't really see the usefulness until you are piecing together the meaning of a new word, or you see the errors quickly in someone else's argument, or you can pick up subtle run-on sentences in others' writing.

 

I think diagramming and grammar give us a vocabulary and a system for teaching and discussing communication efficiently.

Edited September 11, 2016 by angela in ohio

[Guest]

75% of DS's grammar instruction this year is diagramming. We're using Drawing Sentences: A Guide to Diagramming by Eugene R. Moutoux. The book works through each part of speech and incorporates it into the diagramming assignment. DS loves diagramming and it helps the grammar stick in his head better.

 

We have done many lessons using this book - we use it to learn grammar through diagramming. I just ordered a new LA program and pulled this out, thinking I may use it on the side to help reinforce grammar.

[Bluegoat]

I agree with this. It's hard to tell what you've missed if you don't know it in the first place.

 

It's true of so many things we learn: Latin, logic, diagramming. You don't really see the usefulness until you are piecing together the meaning of a new word, or you see the errors quickly in someone else's argument, or you can pick up subtle run-on sentences in others' writing.

 

I think diagramming and grammar give us a vocabulary and a system for teaching and discussing communication efficiently.

 

To my mind part of the question though is what unique use it is, or is it better than other methods.

 

Diagramming works well for some, but it is it really superior to other methods for teaching grammar in use in other places and times?  And if so, how?

 

There are real critisisms of diagramming - one is that in a really complex sentence, it often isn't possible to reconstruct the sentance from the diagram, which suggests that somehow it isn't quite complete. Others are that is possible to digramm ungrammatical sentences and there is no way to tell they are wrong from the diagram,  or they don't always deal well with colloquialisms and non-standard dialects.

 

I think there is a bit of a tendency for it to claim more than it delivers.