Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) ***UPDATED post #34***  I'm seeing signs of dyslexia in my 6 year old DD. This is her first year homeschooling, she just did a Montessori program age 3 through K. She learned most if not all of the phonograms and can read, but not easily. I'm guessing she's 2e and able to mask it. She has a lot of reversals in spelling still which I know can be age appropriate, but it seems off. She reads really slow, and claims she hates reading. She switches sight words (the/a ) and completely ignores punctuation unless I slow her down.  I understand that this could just be related to her being young and a new reader. I just have a little voice telling me it's something more. (Could be plain old neurosis.)  Is 6 too young? I tried googling and got mixed answers. Edited September 6, 2016 by someonestolemyname Quote
EKS Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 If you are homeschooling, just assume she has dyslexia and proceed accordingly. Â I would also get a developmental vision exam first. Â Â I would definitely get a dyslexia evaluation eventually (unless the eye exam tells you all you need to know), maybe age 7-8. Â Right now, though, her problems still could be age related. Â Unless it gives you access to services you couldn't get otherwise, just having the diagnosis earlier doesn't do anything for remediation. Â 2 Quote
kentuckymom Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 My son was diagnosed at six, so I say, no, it's definitely not too young. If you know what to look for, you can start seeing signs of probable dyslexia in toddlers. I also put a lot of stock in a parent's intuition. My son's K teacher was sure he just needed more time to mature and would pick up reading eventually. She was also sure dyslexia couldn't be diagnosed until at least 3rd grade. She was wrong on both counts. He wouldn't have picked up reading without specialized instruction and he could be diagnosed with dyslexia. Even though it was frustrating that the teacher wouldn't listen to me, I felt vindicated as a parent that my intuition was right.  If an evaluation is beyond your means at this point, I recommend saving up for one and in the meantime starting reading instruction with Barton Reading and Spelling or another program designed for dyslexics. 1 Quote
Heathermomster Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 What phonics program did she learn to read with? Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) What phonics program did she learn to read with? Â It was through Montessori, the would learn the sound and then practice with short words and readers. Edited September 5, 2016 by Runningmom80 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 If you are homeschooling, just assume she has dyslexia and proceed accordingly.  I would also get a developmental vision exam first.   I would definitely get a dyslexia evaluation eventually (unless the eye exam tells you all you need to know), maybe age 7-8.  Right now, though, her problems still could be age related.  Unless it gives you access to services you couldn't get otherwise, just having the diagnosis earlier doesn't do anything for remediation.   She does say that the words and letters are hard to see. She said she has to look at them for a long time. I will get an extensive eye exam first. Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 My son was diagnosed at six, so I say, no, it's definitely not too young. If you know what to look for, you can start seeing signs of probable dyslexia in toddlers. I also put a lot of stock in a parent's intuition. My son's K teacher was sure he just needed more time to mature and would pick up reading eventually. She was also sure dyslexia couldn't be diagnosed until at least 3rd grade. She was wrong on both counts. He wouldn't have picked up reading without specialized instruction and he could be diagnosed with dyslexia. Even though it was frustrating that the teacher wouldn't listen to me, I felt vindicated as a parent that my intuition was right.  If an evaluation is beyond your means at this point, I recommend saving up for one and in the meantime starting reading instruction with Barton Reading and Spelling or another program designed for dyslexics.  Would AAS & AAR be good? They claim to be, but I would rather hear from parents who have actually used them with dyslexic children. Quote
PeterPan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) She does say that the words and letters are hard to see. She said she has to look at them for a long time. I will get an extensive eye exam first.  Well with this, it's time to get to an eye doctor.  I wouldn't buy curriculum until you've had a proper eye exam with a developmental optometrist.  They usually have a regular annual exam kinda thing, where they can *screen* for developmental vision problems, and then a full length developmental vision exam.  I would DEFINITELY get her in, because she's telling you she has vision problems.  Has she had any standardized testing?  Some states *do* allow you to diagnose dyslexia via discrepancy, yes, but still you expect to find phonological processing problems.  Dyslexia is NOT considered a vision problem, per DSM, so the reversals, etc. aren't going to get you there.  Given that you're saying she learned to read easily and know she has vision symptoms, I think the more *likely* explanation is vision plus low working memory.  And the best way to sort it out is to start gathering data.  -eye exam by a developmental optometrist--pronto, first.  Around here you can get in in two weeks -achievement testing --if you've already ahd this, what were the results? -CTOPP--sometimes you can get this done by a reading tutor or a dyslexia school on the cheap.  I had one redone recently on my ds, and it only cost $75 for the whole session (CTOPP and the DAR).  The CTOPP will give you the phonological processing and a RAN/RAS score.  You're needing to know if the slow reading is due to vision or RAN/RAS.  Both are easily treated, but you want some baseline data so you can know what to target. -psych eval--If you do the vision and other things and still haven't resolved it, then get a psych eval.  Obviously if the CTOPP turns up something, get the psych eval.  If the CTOPP does not turn up something and the vision doesn't completely explain it, then you'll still get the psych eval.  At that point you're probably looking at an ADHD diagnosis.  Has that ever been on your radar?  I wouldn't put her into AAS/AAR without the vision eval and some data (CTOPP), because you could bore her to tears.  If she has no phonological processing problem and is 2E, you'd have other choices that would pick up the pace.  Or you could do AAS/AAR, sure.  But really, I'd get some data first.  There's no point reinforcing her current dislike by giving her something that also isn't set up to go well based on lack of data to identify the problem.  Give her audiobooks in the meantime, LOTS of audiobooks.  Audiobooks will cover your butt on whatever isn't happening.   Just to check a couple things.  Any speech delays or issues?  Any issues understanding you in loud/noisy places?   And finally, fwiw, 6 is still an age where, honestly, even with a very bright kid you may need to turn on your patience for a few months.  I'm NOT saying wait on evals, because I WOULD DO THEM NOW.  I would have her butt into the dev. optom. pronto.  I would be getting that CTOPP, maybe the DAR if you can, and standardized testing, yes.  But at this age, really she might be developmentally appropriate.  My dd was crunchy between, I forget what years but I'm thinking it was age 6, and then BAM it all came together.  The language skills, the readiness, everything had to converged.  She surged multiple grade levels in a matter of months.  My dd has ADHD btw and had developmental vision issues.  So the things I'm suggesting are all things I've done and know the value of.  I used AAS 1-6 with my dd after her VT (vision therapy), so I know the value of it.  I still have all my levels, in case I decide to use them with ds.  But curriculum is expensive.  I think you need data so you can decide what actually needs intervention.  Sometimes curriculum is NOT the answer.   Get data and we'll help you sort out what to do with it.  :)  Adding: My ds was diagnosed with dyslexia at newly 6 based on CTOPP scores and discrepancy from IQ.  It's not impossible for a dc to be diagnosed this age, especially if they're 2e.  But I'm saying saying you're presenting vision, and I'd get that figured out first.  A psych typically takes months to get into, and vision is two weeks.  You can wait two weeks to buy curriculum.  Use audiobooks in the meantime.  My ds listens to them several hours a day.  His vocabulary is off the charts from it.  Edited September 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth 2 Quote
wapiti Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 See COVD to find a developmental optometrist.  Good luck and let us know how it goes. 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 Well with this, it's time to get to an eye doctor.  I wouldn't buy curriculum until you've had a proper eye exam with a developmental optometrist.  They usually have a regular annual exam kinda thing, where they can *screen* for developmental vision problems, and then a full length developmental vision exam.  I would DEFINITELY get her in, because she's telling you she has vision problems.  I will definitely call tomorrow. She has trouble following lines of text. She also spells words mixed up. Like she tried to spell "soda" out loud and she said "s-o-u-d" (Sounding it out phonetically. I know this is age appropriate, but she does it a lot.  Has she had any standardized testing?  Some states *do* allow you to diagnose dyslexia via discrepancy, yes, but still you expect to find phonological processing problems.  Dyslexia is NOT considered a vision problem, per DSM, so the reversals, etc. aren't going to get you there.  Given that you're saying she learned to read easily and know she has vision symptoms, I think the more *likely* explanation is vision plus low working memory.  And the best way to sort it out is to start gathering data.  -eye exam by a developmental optometrist--pronto, first.  Around here you can get in in two weeks -achievement testing --if you've already ahd this, what were the results? -CTOPP--sometimes you can get this done by a reading tutor or a dyslexia school on the cheap.  I had one redone recently on my ds, and it only cost $75 for the whole session (CTOPP and the DAR).  The CTOPP will give you the phonological processing and a RAN/RAS score.  You're needing to know if the slow reading is due to vision or RAN/RAS.  Both are easily treated, but you want some baseline data so you can know what to target. -psych eval--If you do the vision and other things and still haven't resolved it, then get a psych eval.  Obviously if the CTOPP turns up something, get the psych eval.  If the CTOPP does not turn up something and the vision doesn't completely explain it, then you'll still get the psych eval.  At that point you're probably looking at an ADHD diagnosis.  Has that ever been on your radar?  Yes, I've seen signs of ADD. She definitely has a minuscule attention span, but so did my oldest and I've helped him stretch it. (He's probably ADD; we go back and forth about getting him diagnosed as well. Maybe we'll just test everyone and go from there? :lol: ) We have not done any achievement or standardized testing for DD. She presents to me as moderately gifted, and I haven't felt we needed it. If it's not vision, this will be our next step.  I wouldn't put her into AAS/AAR without the vision eval and some data (CTOPP), because you could bore her to tears.  If she has no phonological processing problem and is 2E, you'd have other choices that would pick up the pace.  Or you could do AAS/AAR, sure.  But really, I'd get some data first.  There's no point reinforcing her current dislike by giving her something that also isn't set up to go well based on lack of data to identify the problem.  Give her audiobooks in the meantime, LOTS of audiobooks.  Audiobooks will cover your butt on whatever isn't happening.   I've tried audiobooks and she doesn't have the attention span to sit and listen. (Red flag?) I'll try some more. She will listen to us read to her for around 20 minutes, so I don't know if it's harder to pay attention to a recording, but I'm just now realizing this is the case and find it interesting.  Just to check a couple things.  Any speech delays or issues?  Any issues understanding you in loud/noisy places?   She had speech therapy from 20-24 months, but speaks pretty clearly now. Her and her twin still don't have great "R's" but I'm giving it a little more time before we re-evaluate.  And finally, fwiw, 6 is still an age where, honestly, even with a very bright kid you may need to turn on your patience for a few months.  I'm NOT saying wait on evals, because I WOULD DO THEM NOW.  I would have her butt into the dev. optom. pronto.  I would be getting that CTOPP, maybe the DAR if you can, and standardized testing, yes.  But at this age, really she might be developmentally appropriate.  My dd was crunchy between, I forget what years but I'm thinking it was age 6, and then BAM it all came together.  The language skills, the readiness, everything had to converged.  She surged multiple grade levels in a matter of months.  My dd has ADHD btw and had developmental vision issues.  So the things I'm suggesting are all things I've done and know the value of.  I used AAS 1-6 with my dd after her VT (vision therapy), so I know the value of it.  I still have all my levels, in case I decide to use them with ds.  But curriculum is expensive.  I think you need data so you can decide what actually needs intervention.  Sometimes curriculum is NOT the answer.   Yeah I'm in no hurry to re-buy curriculum! I already have AAS, which is why I asked after other curriculum was suggested. (Because I really need to back away from the buy button this month.) RE: the age thing, this is why I'm posting. I don't want to be jumpy and put her through a bunch of testing for age appropriate behavior. The vision thing is different though and I can't see the down side in checking that out right away. I guess I'll start with that and go forward with those results.   Get data and we'll help you sort out what to do with it.  :)  Adding: My ds was diagnosed with dyslexia at newly 6 based on CTOPP scores and discrepancy from IQ.  It's not impossible for a dc to be diagnosed this age, especially if they're 2e.  But I'm saying saying you're presenting vision, and I'd get that figured out first.  A psych typically takes months to get into, and vision is two weeks.  You can wait two weeks to buy curriculum.  Use audiobooks in the meantime.  My ds listens to them several hours a day.  His vocabulary is off the charts from it.   What is CTOPP? I haven't done any standardized testing with my oldest, just achievement and IQ testing.  Thanks for your help! We found a dev opt in our network so I will call tomorrow.  Quote
PeterPan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) Your oldest had IQ and achievement, yes? Â So you already have a ballpark sense (+/-10) where the twins will be. Â That's good. Â No, I would not say "soud" for soda is a developmental/wait kinda thing. Â It means her working memory is low, so she's having trouble holding the sounds, converting them to letters, and getting it out. Â How does she do with a 3 letter word? Â 2 letters? Â What if she doesn't *sit* for the audiobooks. Â Will she listen and enjoy if she's in motion? Â My dd, strictly ADHD, was in MOTION for read alouds. Â My ds (much more complex) is usually doing something. Â Nuts, he didn't even used to sit for tv! Â We'd start a show he picked, and then he'd get up and walk away, lol. Â So I would not *assume* that her not listening to audiobooks at this age is attention. Â If her language development is on-track and appropriate for her IQ, she ought to be enjoying them so long as the ADHD is accounted for. Â So long as she's allowed to play, run, be in motion, there should not be an issue. Â Â When there is an issue, AND you factor in the previous speech problems, then I would want an SLP eval. Â I think you should move that up and get that scheduled sooner, rather than later, and have them run language testing, not just artic. Â It's gonna take some hours, because you want the CASL (many hours) or CELF. Â I really like the CASL, but fine, whatever your SLP of choice does. Â If she is not enjoying read-alouds even when she's allowed to be in motion, it's time to figure out why. Â Language could be an explanation. Â The other explanation is hearing. Â I'm not meaning to overwhelm you. Â I'm just saying that's the stuff I would be doing. Â Take small steps, tick things off, go not this, not that, and narrow it down. Â I took my ds to a university audiology clinic. Â It cost $35, and they do a full audiology eval and a little bit of screening for APD. Â They want the dc to be 7 to fully test for APD, but we had that conversation. Â I also took my dd in, and for the same price they ran the full screening, quite the deal! Â It would have been $380 for that privately. Â Either way, I would at least get a basic hearing eval, especially if you can get it for $35, and I would get it at a place that has the private booth set-up for an APD eval. Â APD is extremely common, in various shades, along with ADHD, and it would be a possible explanation for your symptoms. Â Â I don't think you are going to be able to say oh vision explains it. Â I think you're going to want to eliminate ALL these things, because it's more typically a combination of things rather than just one thing. Â Â Sorry I'm spending your money. Â :D Edited September 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth 1 Quote
PeterPan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 Was she premie or anything? Â Health problems? Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 Was she premie or anything?  Health problems?  Not a preemie in age of gestation, but it was commented by numerous nurses and the peds that she presented like a preemie. Twins were born at 38 weeks 4 days, DS was 6.6, DD was 5.3 and needed a few extra things that he did not. No health problems besides multiple ear infections as a baby. She saw an ENT at 18 months along with her twin. Her ears looked good but he needed tubes. Her hearing seems fine, but there could be a processing thing going on. Quote
wapiti Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) FWIW, my twins were premies, and my twin A was a pound bigger and had ear tubes at 2 y.o. Â Twin B's ears didn't look as bad though he still had something like 7 rounds of antibiotics by age 2; we did not get him tubes. Â Guess who has far worse issues? Â B, of course (though to be fair, he had/has several major additional health issues not necessarily directly related to being a small-for-gestational-age premie). Â He is much more 2e on both ends. Edited September 5, 2016 by wapiti 1 Quote
OneStepAtATime Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (FWIW, my DD had all the classic signs of dyslexia and we KNEW something was off when she was 4 years old. Â No one, not one person, wanted us to get her evaluated, so we just kept waiting and limping her along through school. Â It was a mistake. Â Yes, 6 is very young and that honestly does give you more time to tweak things out. Â I agree, though, that just sitting around hoping things improve is not always the wisest course. Â If your mommy instinct says something is off, I applaud you for listening to it. Â I didn't. Â I listened to the the naysayers around me. Â It was a mistake.) Â I had a long response here but I will just say "What OhElizabeth said." LOL Â You could also give your child the Barton student screening to see if she passes it. Â Its free. Â It does not test reading knowledge. Â It basically screens for sound discrimination and abilities along those lines. Â Make sure you do the tutor screening first. Â The screenings are not that hard to implement, don't take very long and can give you a free piece of the puzzle. Â Just make certain you are both well rested, not hungry, are in a quiet place, will not be interrupted and don't have to rush through. Â (and once again this is FREE) Â https://bartonreading.com/ Â If she doesn't pass that screening, depending on which section or sections she failed, she may need a program like LiPS or the newer (and apparently MUCH easier to implement) Foundations in Sound before she will be successful with a reading program. Â Hugs and good luck. Â Â 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 Your oldest had IQ and achievement, yes?  So you already have a ballpark sense (+/-10) where the twins will be.  That's good.  No, I would not say "soud" for soda is a developmental/wait kinda thing.  It means her working memory is low, so she's having trouble holding the sounds, converting them to letters, and getting it out.  How does she do with a 3 letter word?  2 letters?  I just asked her to spell cow, pen, hat, the, and, she got them all right. I'm pretty sure my older DS has working memory issues, he scored something ridiculously abysmal on an IQ test for coding, I think it was the 3rd percentile or something like that. I do see similarities in the way they both "operate."  What if she doesn't *sit* for the audiobooks.  Will she listen and enjoy if she's in motion?  My dd, strictly ADHD, was in MOTION for read alouds.  My ds (much more complex) is usually doing something.  Nuts, he didn't even used to sit for tv!  We'd start a show he picked, and then he'd get up and walk away, lol.  So I would not *assume* that her not listening to audiobooks at this age is attention.  If her language development is on-track and appropriate for her IQ, she ought to be enjoying them so long as the ADHD is accounted for.  So long as she's allowed to play, run, be in motion, there should not be an issue.   I will try having her move around more to listen. She's a never sit still kind of kid, so that might help. She's sounding more and more ADHD as I type this out.  When there is an issue, AND you factor in the previous speech problems, then I would want an SLP eval.  I think you should move that up and get that scheduled sooner, rather than later, and have them run language testing, not just artic.  It's gonna take some hours, because you want the CASL (many hours) or CELF.  I really like the CASL, but fine, whatever your SLP of choice does.  If she is not enjoying read-alouds even when she's allowed to be in motion, it's time to figure out why.  Language could be an explanation.  The other explanation is hearing.  I'm not meaning to overwhelm you.  I'm just saying that's the stuff I would be doing.  Take small steps, tick things off, go not this, not that, and narrow it down.  I took my ds to a university audiology clinic.  It cost $35, and they do a full audiology eval and a little bit of screening for APD.  They want the dc to be 7 to fully test for APD, but we had that conversation.  I also took my dd in, and for the same price they ran the full screening, quite the deal!  It would have been $380 for that privately.  Either way, I would at least get a basic hearing eval, especially if you can get it for $35, and I would get it at a place that has the private booth set-up for an APD eval.  APD is extremely common, in various shades, along with ADHD, and it would be a possible explanation for your symptoms.   I don't think you are going to be able to say oh vision explains it.  I think you're going to want to eliminate ALL these things, because it's more typically a combination of things rather than just one thing.   Sorry I'm spending your money.  :D  We have pretty good insurance, so no worries! Even if we have to pay OOP, we are used to not taking vacations to pay for various therapies and medical needs. :lol:  Quote
OneStepAtATime Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 With my two kids they HAVE to be doing something to occupy their bodies or they don't do well even with read alouds, much less audio books (which DD struggles mightily with). Â DD sketches or paints or draws electronically or weaves or builds with clay or paints Pyzanky eggs. Â DS rolls die and records statistical data or plays with legos or practices katas or bounces on his mini trampoline or something like that. Â It drives DH nuts and he thinks they should sit still to listen but they really spend all of their energy trying to sit still and cannot listen at all if they aren't physically occupied with something. Â DH cannot sit still, either, but for some reason he cannot translate his own issues with sitting still to what the kids are doing. Â :) 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 Mine sit fine when I'm reading, it's just audio books they don't sit still for. I'll have them occupy their bodies next time and see how it goes. 1 Quote
PeterPan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 Do you read slower than the audiobooks? Â Or are the recorded books more complex material? Â Sift out what is explaining the difference there. Â Â You want to dig in on exactly what's going on, whether it's the language component or the auditory processing or the social thinking or... Â I think that low coding gets you an SLD writing label, yes? Â You might wanna take 'em all in for eyes once you get the first one figured out. 1 Quote
PeterPan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 I don't know apgar scores, but if the oxygen went low you can have effect from that. It's something a neuropsych would look for in evals. Â It's a reason to consider a neuropsych rather than a regular psych when you get evals. Quote
Lecka Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 I am just going to say, between AAR/AAS and Barton, it depends on the person. Â For some people AAR/AAS will work very well. Barton is up a notch. Some people need to go up a notch. Â They are both quality programs, but basically, Barton is up a notch. Â If she has not spent a lot of time working on blending, AAR/AAS could be just right for her, because it does work on blending in a good way. Â I don't think missing punctuation is a red flag at all at her age if she has not learned or spent time going over it. That is included in fluency a lot of the time, and they may really not have covered it in a program going through K. Â Seeing the dev opt sounds great! Â Personally I don't think you can go wrong between AAR/AAS, and Barton and the Barton pre-test and going ahead and scheduling appointments. I think on one hand, you try working more with AAR/AAS and see how it goes, and if it is roadblock after roadblock, then you find that out. Then you can go up a notch. If it works out, then that is great, no need to go up a notch. Or just go ahead if you have that feeling. Â But checking eyes is so important, too! Â That is just my opinion. 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) I don't know apgar scores, but if the oxygen went low you can have effect from that. It's something a neuropsych would look for in evals.  It's a reason to consider a neuropsych rather than a regular psych when you get evals.  This is interesting, because my oldest first apgar was a 2, he had to be resuscitated at birth. He is the one with the super low coding score. He definitely needs a neuro eval, that is big bucks though and it's not been great timing. I will see if I can get it scheduled.   ETA: DD's oxygen went low too, requiring emergency c-section (fluke thing, her face starting down the birth canal instead of the top of her head, lest you think my uterus is that much of a failure. :lol: ) Edited September 5, 2016 by Runningmom80 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 I am just going to say, between AAR/AAS and Barton, it depends on the person.  For some people AAR/AAS will work very well. Barton is up a notch. Some people need to go up a notch.  They are both quality programs, but basically, Barton is up a notch.  If she has not spent a lot of time working on blending, AAR/AAS could be just right for her, because it does work on blending in a good way.  I don't think missing punctuation is a red flag at all at her age if she has not learned or spent time going over it. That is included in fluency a lot of the time, and they may really not have covered it in a program going through K.  Seeing the dev opt sounds great!  Personally I don't think you can go wrong between AAR/AAS, and Barton and the Barton pre-test and going ahead and scheduling appointments. I think on one hand, you try working more with AAR/AAS and see how it goes, and if it is roadblock after roadblock, then you find that out. Then you can go up a notch. If it works out, then that is great, no need to go up a notch. Or just go ahead if you have that feeling.  But checking eyes is so important, too!  That is just my opinion.  I appreciate it! it sounds like a good plan to me. I'm going to just watch and adjust until we have answers.  Quote
kbutton Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 Your oldest had IQ and achievement, yes? Â So you already have a ballpark sense (+/-10) where the twins will be. Â That's good. Â No, I would not say "soud" for soda is a developmental/wait kinda thing. Â It means her working memory is low, so she's having trouble holding the sounds, converting them to letters, and getting it out. Â How does she do with a 3 letter word? Â 2 letters? Â When there is an issue, AND you factor in the previous speech problems, then I would want an SLP eval. Â I think you should move that up and get that scheduled sooner, rather than later, and have them run language testing, not just artic. Â It's gonna take some hours, because you want the CASL (many hours) or CELF. Â I really like the CASL, but fine, whatever your SLP of choice does. Â If she is not enjoying read-alouds even when she's allowed to be in motion, it's time to figure out why. Â Language could be an explanation. Â The other explanation is hearing. Â I'm not meaning to overwhelm you. Â I'm just saying that's the stuff I would be doing. Â Take small steps, tick things off, go not this, not that, and narrow it down. Â I took my ds to a university audiology clinic. Â It cost $35, and they do a full audiology eval and a little bit of screening for APD. Â They want the dc to be 7 to fully test for APD, but we had that conversation. Â I also took my dd in, and for the same price they ran the full screening, quite the deal! Â It would have been $380 for that privately. Â Either way, I would at least get a basic hearing eval, especially if you can get it for $35, and I would get it at a place that has the private booth set-up for an APD eval. Â APD is extremely common, in various shades, along with ADHD, and it would be a possible explanation for your symptoms. Â Â I don't think you are going to be able to say oh vision explains it. Â I think you're going to want to eliminate ALL these things, because it's more typically a combination of things rather than just one thing. Â Â Sorry I'm spending your money. Â :D Â OhE offers some very good suggestions. You are definitely not too early to be concerned. Â The stuff you mentioned lines up very well with how my now 8.5 y.o. presented. He has developmental vision problems (greatly helped by vision therapy with a COVD office), retained primitive reflexes, some expressive/receptive langue problems (even with a sky high verbal IQ), and CAPD (you do not have to have all the boxes ticked on the symptom list to have problems--you can literally have one problem, but have it severely enough that it's diagnosed). He will be evaluated next summer (LONG waiting list) for connective tissue problems, which are linked to wishy-washy, hard to pin down learning issues. Â For the IQ stuff that is more over-arching, I strongly recommend finding someone who really likes to evaluate 2e kids. Also, don't expect that a neuropsych will be motivated to put the pieces together. I went to a neuropsych over a regular psych because supposedly the NP would put it all together. HA! Should've stuck with our ed psych who knows us and cares about our kids. And knows 2e. She "knows" less overall, but she cares about all the other pieces. The NP really didn't take the reports from the SLP or audiologist or anybody into consideration. Our ed psych educates herself as she runs onto these things and will go out of her way to help us sort it out. If you find a NP who will do that, it's fine. I just mean to say that credentials aren't the be all, end all. 1 Quote
PeterPan Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) I liked the AAS materials a LOT, which is why I kept them. Â Ironically, my reasoning on why I was saying to wait on them was only that it could be that it would be too slow. Â I used SWR with my dd, and I liked that it let her go farther, faster. Â But since you have AAS, it's logical. Â But really, she may not have a reading disability or even a problem. Â I wouldn't hyper-labor things that aren't necessary, kwim? Â You've definitely got a working memory issue and vision complaints. Â Oxygen deprivation can be associated with apraxia of speech. Â You can have genetics for apraxia, but also stroke, oxygen levels, etc. are other ways to get there. Â So yeah, not pleasant to think about, but knowledge is power. Â My ds has apraxia. Â It's not (merely) developmental, and the therapy for it is different from regular speech therapy. Â Sometimes you just have to start somewhere with psychs. Â Even with lots of research you can make a choice that isn't helpful or isn't what you needed. Â I took my ds to THE most popular, biggest name in our area (I kid you not), and he got cursory, shallow approaches and incomplete explanations. Â Some kids are flowers that take a while to unfold. Â The therapy of choice for apraxia is PROMPT. Â You could look at the PROMPT provider maps and see if you can find someone within a reasonable drive (2-4 hours) to do the eval. Â They could talk through with you on the phone whether that would even be warranted. Â Â Â Edited September 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 OhE offers some very good suggestions. You are definitely not too early to be concerned.  The stuff you mentioned lines up very well with how my now 8.5 y.o. presented. He has developmental vision problems (greatly helped by vision therapy with a COVD office), retained primitive reflexes, some expressive/receptive langue problems (even with a sky high verbal IQ), and CAPD (you do not have to have all the boxes ticked on the symptom list to have problems--you can literally have one problem, but have it severely enough that it's diagnosed). He will be evaluated next summer (LONG waiting list) for connective tissue problems, which are linked to wishy-washy, hard to pin down learning issues.  For the IQ stuff that is more over-arching, I strongly recommend finding someone who really likes to evaluate 2e kids. Also, don't expect that a neuropsych will be motivated to put the pieces together. I went to a neuropsych over a regular psych because supposedly the NP would put it all together. HA! Should've stuck with our ed psych who knows us and cares about our kids. And knows 2e. She "knows" less overall, but she cares about all the other pieces. The NP really didn't take the reports from the SLP or audiologist or anybody into consideration. Our ed psych educates herself as she runs onto these things and will go out of her way to help us sort it out. If you find a NP who will do that, it's fine. I just mean to say that credentials aren't the be all, end all.   I do have someone local that seems to work with 2e kids. Thank you for your advice! 2 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 5, 2016 Author Posted September 5, 2016 I liked the AAS materials a LOT, which is why I kept them.  Ironically, my reasoning on why I was saying to wait on them was only that it could be that it would be too slow.  I used SWR with my dd, and I liked that it let her go farther, faster.  But since you have AAS, it's logical.  But really, she may not have a reading disability or even a problem.  I wouldn't hyper-labor things that aren't necessary, kwim?  You've definitely got a working memory issue and vision complaints.  Oxygen deprivation can be associated with apraxia of speech.  You can have genetics for apraxia, but also stroke, oxygen levels, etc. are other ways to get there.  So yeah, not pleasant to think about, but knowledge is power.  My ds has apraxia.  It's not (merely) developmental, and the therapy for it is different from regular speech therapy.  Sometimes you just have to start somewhere with psychs.  Even with lots of research you can make a choice that isn't helpful or isn't what you needed.  I took my ds to THE most popular, biggest name in our area (I kid you not), and he got cursory, shallow approaches and incomplete explanations.  Some kids are flowers that take a while to unfold.  The therapy of choice for apraxia is PROMPT.  You could look at the PROMPT provider maps and see if you can find someone within a reasonable drive (2-4 hours) to do the eval.  They could talk through with you on the phone whether that would even be warranted.   I have had this experience re: older DS's food allergies and EoE. We've seen so many medical profs at this point between the mental and the physical, I have learned not to over research, and it can be very hit or miss!  2 Quote
Crimson Wife Posted September 5, 2016 Posted September 5, 2016  . She saw an ENT at 18 months along with her twin. Her ears looked good but he needed tubes. Her hearing seems fine, but there could be a processing thing going on.  If she hasn't had a full audiology exam since 18 mos. and she's now 6, I would strongly encourage getting one just to make sure that her hearing is actually normal, not just seemingly ok. If you had asked me in January 2015 if my daughter's hearing was fine, I would've said yes because she was able to use her high IQ to compensate for the frequencies she wasn't able to hear.  Vision and hearing first, then start in on the other testing.  3 Quote
Tiramisu Posted September 6, 2016 Posted September 6, 2016 This is interesting, because my oldest first apgar was a 2, he had to be resuscitated at birth. He is the one with the super low coding score. He definitely needs a neuro eval, that is big bucks though and it's not been great timing. I will see if I can get it scheduled. Â Â ETA: DD's oxygen went low too, requiring emergency c-section (fluke thing, her face starting down the birth canal instead of the top of her head, lest you think my uterus is that much of a failure. :lol: ) Please remember that when there is a medical history like this, insurance should cover the eval. If you find a good, experienced neuropsych they can guide you through the process. Or your pediatrician may have experience, too. Â Our neuropsych asked about medical history before scheduling. She then told us to get the medical records if the pediatrician didn't have them. I got the records from the hospital and gave them to our current pediatric office. Then the pediatrician contacted the insurance company's pre-authorization dept. They had to forward the records and then we got the go-ahead. 3 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Posted September 6, 2016 Please remember that when there is a medical history like this, insurance should cover the eval. If you find a good, experienced neuropsych they can guide you through the process. Or your pediatrician may have experience, too.  Our neuropsych asked about medical history before scheduling. She then told us to get the medical records if the pediatrician didn't have them. I got the records from the hospital and gave them to our current pediatric office. Then the pediatrician contacted the insurance company's pre-authorization dept. They had to forward the records and then we got the go-ahead.  Thank you! I always kind of gloss over that, and especially in the case of my older, it's probably more relevant than I previously thought. 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Posted September 6, 2016 We got in this afternoon with the dev opt! :hurray:  I'll report back tonight. Thanks for the help and guidance everyone! 3 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Posted September 6, 2016 FWIW, my twins were premies, and my twin A was a pound bigger and had ear tubes at 2 y.o. Twin B's ears didn't look as bad though he still had something like 7 rounds of antibiotics by age 2; we did not get him tubes. Guess who has far worse issues? B, of course (though to be fair, he had/has several major additional health issues not necessarily directly related to being a small-for-gestational-age premie). He is much more 2e on both ends. I just saw this, and will definitely keep it in mind. I think she had 5 or 6 rounds of abx by 2. Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Posted September 6, 2016 (FWIW, my DD had all the classic signs of dyslexia and we KNEW something was off when she was 4 years old. No one, not one person, wanted us to get her evaluated, so we just kept waiting and limping her along through school. It was a mistake. Yes, 6 is very young and that honestly does give you more time to tweak things out. I agree, though, that just sitting around hoping things improve is not always the wisest course. If your mommy instinct says something is off, I applaud you for listening to it. I didn't. I listened to the the naysayers around me. It was a mistake.) Â I had a long response here but I will just say "What OhElizabeth said." LOL Â You could also give your child the Barton student screening to see if she passes it. Its free. It does not test reading knowledge. It basically screens for sound discrimination and abilities along those lines. Make sure you do the tutor screening first. The screenings are not that hard to implement, don't take very long and can give you a free piece of the puzzle. Just make certain you are both well rested, not hungry, are in a quiet place, will not be interrupted and don't have to rush through. (and once again this is FREE) Â https://bartonreading.com/ Â If she doesn't pass that screening, depending on which section or sections she failed, she may need a program like LiPS or the newer (and apparently MUCH easier to implement) Foundations in Sound before she will be successful with a reading program. Â Hugs and good luck. I just saw this, thank you for the support and the link to the free test! 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 6, 2016 Author Posted September 6, 2016 (edited) Ok, we are back. The dev opt did NOT do the visual processing part. She likes to start with the standard vision to rule out that first. The good news is DD's eyes are perfect. No near or far sightedness, no convergence/divergence issues, good depth perception, etc.  The dr wants her to come back in the Spring if I'm still seeing the issues so she can test for visual processing. She thinks it's a maturity thing, that maybe reading is so new that DD is just saying she can't see because it's hard.  I am going to call to meet with a psych about ADD & Dyslexia. I'd rather play it safe and at least talk with a professional. DD is young, she just turned 6 in July, so I do understand that it could be something she grows out of, but I'd like to get her therapies/help sooner rather than later if she does in fact need it.  Funny story, I talked to the ped about the twins only having 5 words at 18 months, and she blew me off. "We'll talk again when they are 2, but I'm not worried." I went home and called our state early intervention program who came out a month later, and both my twins qualified for speech therapy. (DS ended up having 100% blockage in one ear and 75% in another. DD on the other hand had ears that looked good, but just wasn't talking.) They only had to go to therapy for 3 or 4 months, and when they entered preschool at 3, their teacher was shocked the ever needed speech therapy. So I KNOW that early intervention works, and I also don't stop when professionals advise me too. :lol:  Thanks again everyone! I'm onto step 2. Edited September 6, 2016 by Runningmom80 2 Quote
PeterPan Posted September 6, 2016 Posted September 6, 2016 (edited) Well that's good!! Â I know it's not fun to have an explanation turn up negative, but you've eliminated it (for now) and can move on. Â That's why you did it. Â Â So, yeah, time for the next steps. Â When was your last ped visit? Â Did you have one when she turned 6? Â That wasn't very long ago. Â Does your insurance require you to have a referral? Â Â The psych is going to be your longest wait to get in. Â I would suggest you find someone known for being good with dyslexia, get on their waiting list, and then pursue little evals in the meanwhile as you think of them. Â The psych could have a wait, possibly 3-6 months or more. Â That gives you time to maybe get in an audiology eval, etc. if you want. Â Â When that eye doc says visual processing, sometimes that's because, to these eye docs, dyslexia IS a vision problem. Â They'll actually say that. Â And it's true that vision therapy work can really improve visual processing! Â And when she says visual processing, they're probably lumping in it tracking, memory, working memory, rapid naming, etc. Â So it's stuff that would be crunchy because of the dyslexia, yes. Â But it's not like it's the ONLY way to work on those things. Â Â Thing is, if you go intervening on the RAN/RAS now, you're raising something that the CTOPP tests, something that is a lagging indication of dyslexia. Â If you want it sorted out, I'd just focus on other things, just me. Edited September 6, 2016 by OhElizabeth 1 Quote
Runningmom80 Posted September 7, 2016 Author Posted September 7, 2016 Well that's good!!  I know it's not fun to have an explanation turn up negative, but you've eliminated it (for now) and can move on.  That's why you did it.   So, yeah, time for the next steps.  When was your last ped visit?  Did you have one when she turned 6?  That wasn't very long ago.  Does your insurance require you to have a referral?   The psych is going to be your longest wait to get in.  I would suggest you find someone known for being good with dyslexia, get on their waiting list, and then pursue little evals in the meanwhile as you think of them.  The psych could have a wait, possibly 3-6 months or more.  That gives you time to maybe get in an audiology eval, etc. if you want.   When that eye doc says visual processing, sometimes that's because, to these eye docs, dyslexia IS a vision problem.  They'll actually say that.  And it's true that vision therapy work can really improve visual processing!  And when she says visual processing, they're probably lumping in it tracking, memory, working memory, rapid naming, etc.  So it's stuff that would be crunchy because of the dyslexia, yes.  But it's not like it's the ONLY way to work on those things.   Thing is, if you go intervening on the RAN/RAS now, you're raising something that the CTOPP tests, something that is a lagging indication of dyslexia.  If you want it sorted out, I'd just focus on other things, just me.  I expected her vision to be fine, so I went into it with the goal of crossing it off the list, and being able to tell a psych I did my due diligence on that part.  To the bolded, can you please translate? :lol:  I googled CTOPP the other day, I can't figure out which professional I take her to to get that done. The other two, RAN/RAS...no idea. :laugh:  Quote
Crimson Wife Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 CTOPP would be best run by a speech & language pathologist or psychologist. Ed therapists will often run one for cheaper but they are not permitted to diagnose. Psychologist can diagnose dyslexia. The SLP would diagnose "phonological processing disorder". Either one would work for starting a paper trail. 2 Quote
Crimson Wife Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 RAN is a test of rapid naming. The child has to read across a list of letters or numbers and name each one as quickly as possible. The CTOPP includes RAN but also has other subtests. 2 Quote
PeterPan Posted September 7, 2016 Posted September 7, 2016 I've posted links for RAN/RAS exercises before. Â It's astonishingly simple to work on and shockingly effective. Â Now my ds both has the phonological processing problems AND language problems, so for him he need speech therapy materials for language AND Barton for the reading. Â Â Our neuropsych ran the CELF5, which is good, detailed language testing. Â Our SLP later ran quite a few of the CASL subtests on him, and it's even more detailed, with more time spent. Â So getting language testing done by someone at some point is probably in your future, whether it's a shorter test or longer. Â It's just one of those things they can do to see why reading isn't coming. Â If the phonological processing is intact but she's not reading, it *could* be the language component. Â Â In other words, if you're going to update her speech eval anyway, it would be sort of a two-fer. Â :) 1 Quote
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