Another Look at A-G for those of you looking at UC's

[...................]

^^ Yep.  Our OG friends do the same stuff we do, and sometimes much more lame, and yet it's all accepted by UC because it's a public school.  They do have to jump a few hoopps for lab Science but that's about it. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

CT, I get it, I do. And I agree that I might very well end up using something like this for "silly box checking" for a couple of classes too.  

 

How long does your son spend on the SVHS history class?  Is there a possibility that a kid could do the box-checking part - the online lectures, quizzes, and tests required for credit - and still have time to supplement it with additional reading & writing projects? I'd love to get a sense for how long it takes, hours per weeks, number of weeks, etc.  I get that it's self-paced, but what does that mean in terms of content?

[Crimson Wife]

 

I hate California UC and Cal States for this, though.

 

If the stupid micromanaging of high school coursework actually resulted in CA's public schools being way better than the PS in other states, I'd put aside my reflexive dislike for the bureaucracy and hoop-jumping. But the PS here are by & large mediocre.

[JennW in SoCal]

Another a-g thread, another chance to point out that there are many other college options for California homeschoolers that don't require the whole a-g requirement handwringing and hoop jumping, or all the test taking. 

 

Most private liberal arts colleges welcome homeschool students, and they tend to offer very generous merit aid which make them comparable in price to a UC, when you take into account housing costs. (Don't just compare tuition -- consider all the costs.) They also often have more generous need-based aid too, given in addition to the merit based aid. Most courses at liberal arts colleges are taught by professors instead of the army of grad students and adjuncts that teach the bulk of lower level UC courses. LACs have more research opportunities -- often paid positions -- which allow undergrads to be mentored by their professors. 

 

The most academically minded homeschoolers I know all went to private LACs, from Ivy League to Colleges That Change Lives. I am very biased in favor of private LACs after the excellent 4 years my ds spent at his. 

 

In the greater scheme of things, and from the perspective of a mom of 2 college graduates, there is nothing wrong with transferring from a community college into a UC. Among my cohort of homeschool families, no one even bothered applying to a UC as a freshman. Most took cc classes in high school then eventually transferred to a UC or a Cal State school. It hasn't affected their adult lives in any way -- they grew up, got their degrees and are living happy and productive lives. 

 

I also know a bunch of students who have taken advantage of the tuition breaks CA residents can get at the state universities in Oregon, Utah and Arizona, none of which have those a-g requirements.  I can't remember the name of the tuition agreement between the states, but it exists and is worth exploring.  Oregon, for instance, has an honors college...

 

All this to say -- don't kill yourselves over the a-g requirements. You will NOT have failed your kids if they don't enter a UC school as freshmen. It is not the be all end all of academia, nor is it the cheapest option for an excellent education. 

 

 

[yvonne]

See, this is what makes me crazy.  I'm supposed to put aside a carefully constructed, student-tailored learning plan in favor of a conglomeration of online resource plus some multiple choice quizzes, and that somehow will demonstrate to the UCs that my student is prepared for college???  Yeah, no thanks.

 

 

Exactly. A-G approval is absolutely no indicator of quality. In fact, I'm finding it's more of a red flag when I come across an online course labeled a-g.

 

As home schoolers, we can create some great courses, and we can pick and choose from some truly exceptional outside classes and instructors. If I could find a-g classes that came anywhere close to the quality of the courses & instructors I can find locally or online, sure, we'd be happy to try them. But, as it is, the quality of the available online/local a-g courses is nowhere near what we can find at Lukeion or PAHS or our French tutor or some courses at TPS, WHA, and WTMA.

 

I'm glad APs, SAT, & SAT subject exams provide an alternate route to having to take a-g approved courses.

[Roadrunner]

^^ Yep. Our OG friends do the same stuff we do, and sometimes much more lame, and yet it's all accepted by UC because it's a public school. They do have to jump a few hoopps for lab Science but that's about it.

The OG hoop jumping to get them a-g approved is more than I am willing to handle. You have to meet online once a week per class. Who has time for that!

We have similar goals as you do - must make it to SLO or Davis, but want to shoot for MIT. 😂 So, I would rather take AP classes from PA Homeschoolers (a score of 3+ satisfies a-g) and take SAT subject tests for home brewed classes that even bother dealing with OG headache.

[quark]

All this to say -- don't kill yourselves over the a-g requirements. You will NOT have failed your kids if they don't enter a UC school as freshmen. It is not the be all end all of academia, nor is it the cheapest option for an excellent education.

Very true for many kids Jenn, I definitely agree. Not so much for a 13/14yo who is still considering many private schools' compulsory dorm policy and the lack of extensive math opportunities at many LACs. Plus at 13K-15K a year plus top notch math opportunities, Cal/UCLA are really hard to beat for convenience and value. He will not kill himself over a-g for sure. He has a rebellious mom! :)

[Roadrunner]

Also, if you don't qualify for aid from private schools, $35k at UC is much cheaper than $60k at the private U.

[quark]

Guys, do consider the DE at CC option (with chspe) if you can bring yourself to stomach the paperwork and initial legwork and your kid can tolerate mixed ages/ mature content/ mixed attitudes towards learning. It's cheap/free (if DE), semester/quarter based meaning less busywork usually and more flexibility to mix and match based on interest and the campus/college experience really helps with maturity/ef skills. Bonus: learn to choose profs carefully and earn yourselves amazing mentors for a fraction of the cost of engaging private tutors here in CA (especially SF Bay and surrounding areas).

[quark]

One example...DS has a CC prof who qualified from Yale teaching him literature. The prof really sees his students, understands which ones care and nurtures them by sending additional reading and invites to attend seminars with visiting speakers. One such seminar motivated DS to read and dissect Ulysses outside of class. I think the prof does this for all of his students actually, but is obviously very much invested in the more hardworking ones. Additional benefit: great source for LoRs!

 

Costs us $160-180 max for 17 weeks including the price of books. If I engaged an IRL lit mentor here at the same level, I would need to fork out 10 times that for about 16 weeks.

Edited September 7, 2016 by quark

[Crimson Wife]

The biggest attraction that CC-in-lieu-of-high school holds for my child is the greater academic freedom. Even if she's looking at schools that don't require a-g approved courses, they still have a pretty "cookie cutter" list of requirements. 4 years of English, 4 years of math, survey courses in bio + chem + physics (as opposed to the IGETC "life science" and "physical science" requirements which offer lots of different course options), etc. My child wants to take the classes that interest her and as few of the others as she can get away with and still graduate with a bachelor's. And I have to say that I sympathize with that desire. I loved the academic freedom that college offered me.

 

She'd probably love Brown or Reed or Grinnell, etc. but we wouldn't qualify for need-based aid because on paper our income looks good (even if it doesn't go very far due to the high CoL plus our special need child's medical/therapy expenses) and those types of schools don't offer merit aid.

[learners4life]

http://www.rosettastone.com/blog/rosetta-stone-earns-university-of-california-a-g-approval/

"We’re happy to announce that the Rosetta Stone Spanish I and II offerings have received A-G approval from the University of California. What this means is that California’s high school students can use those products to fulfill their two-year foreign language graduation requirement."

OH, my gosh, this has to be a joke.  We purchased all five levels of Rosetta Stone.  My daughter, in 7th and 8th grade could blow through a level in two months, doing it twice a week.  This is mind boggling!

 

(On a side note: While the later versions of Rosetta Stone were an improvement in terms of speaking because they used voice recognition software that was surprisingly decent, every other aspect of Rosetta Stone, as compared to their version of circa 2005, was very dumbed down.)

[Chrysalis Academy]

The biggest attraction that CC-in-lieu-of-high school holds for my child is the greater academic freedom. Even if she's looking at schools that don't require a-g approved courses, they still have a pretty "cookie cutter" list of requirements. 4 years of English, 4 years of math, survey courses in bio + chem + physics (as opposed to the IGETC "life science" and "physical science" requirements which offer lots of different course options), etc. My child wants to take the classes that interest her and as few of the others as she can get away with and still graduate with a bachelor's. And I have to say that I sympathize with that desire. I loved the academic freedom that college offered me.

 

She'd probably love Brown or Reed or Grinnell, etc. but we wouldn't qualify for need-based aid because on paper our income looks good (even if it doesn't go very far due to the high CoL plus our special need child's medical/therapy expenses) and those types of schools don't offer merit aid.

 

I totally get it, and my dd is the same way in terms of desiring the academic freedom. But is your dd planning on doing an AA at the CC and transferring as a junior? Or just using the CC in lieu of high school and doing 4 years at a uni?  (Sorry if you've mentioned it, I have a hard time keeping track of everybody's individual track, even kids like yours that I've been reading about since 4th grade!)  I ask because there are requirements for both of those paths too, right? We've been looking at AA at the CC, and there are a slew of Gen Ed required courses, and both the CSUs and UCs have "breadth" requirements.  It's definitely less than the typical 4x4 or 4x5 that you need for high school grad/college acceptance, but it's still there.

 

I'm not asking this critically, I'm sincerely curious about how your dd feels about this, because my dd is processing very similar thoughts.  And we're in a similar situation that many of her dream schools are totally out of reach financially, so I'm trying to help her see some alternate paths.

[quark]

Rose, while waiting for CW, the UC breadth requirements are usually satisfied by IGETC (CCs' general ed). At least I know this for Cal. There are other graduation req but not many (I think it is only American Cultures for Cal, have to double check) but that can be taken via CC too.

 

For high school via CC to UC, my friends' kids who applied as freshmen have all double dipped, i.e. credits transferred or they were used for placement. Many could have graduated in less than 4 years but chose to stay to double major/ make full use of experience.

Edited September 8, 2016 by quark

[quark]

For some majors, like CS/ engineering, breadth requirements do not apply/ are minimal and IGETC requirements similarly few too.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Oh, I gotcha - I didn't understand that IGETC was the CCs general ed.  So now I get what CW was saying: her dd is ok with the more limited breadth requirements of the CCs, and would rather pursue that than the 4x4/5 needed for high school grad.  I get it. Thanks for clarifying.

[quark]

IGETCs make up about 30+ of the 60 units needed to transfer. So about 10 courses or so max I think. Yes, fewer than 4x5 but CCs goals are different after all. Some kids do the gen eds and more. Some are happy with limited gen eds. Good platform to customize as per each kid's goals.

Edited September 8, 2016 by quark

[Arcadia]

For some majors, like CS/ engineering, breadth requirements do not apply/ are minimal and IGETC requirements similarly few too.

I was looking at IGETC after you mentioned in your earlier post. I am pretty sure my kids would be happy to knock off the english ones before college.

I think he just added audio engineering to his long list of potential careers because he goes for the mixers every time we stop by Guitar Center. He is happy in the mixer room.

[quark]

I was looking at IGETC after you mentioned in your earlier post. I am pretty sure my kids would be happy to knock off the english ones before college.

I think he just added audio engineering to his long list of potential careers because he goes for the mixers every time we stop by Guitar Center. He is happy in the mixer room.

 

DS wasn't tempted by the English Comp courses at all. :mellow: At our CC, they are mostly nonfiction and being a literature kid, he opted to do AP Lit instead. I think for him, it's really good to have a mix of experiences even if doing AP in senior vs junior year won't have a score to impress admissions folks before decisions are made. He is enjoying the AP Lit class very much so far and also the slightly less rushed feel of doing something online again after so many semesters of on campus classes.

 

For your DS, Arcadia, I would consider CC F over DA for the English Comp classes. Profs at the former are more highly rated among my friends.

Edited September 8, 2016 by quark

[GoodGrief]

I'm glad to hear you took another look at the SAT subject tests. I agree that, spread out starting at the end of 9th grade, they are not too big of a deal, and provide some validation of course content.

[Crimson Wife]

I totally get it, and my dd is the same way in terms of desiring the academic freedom. But is your dd planning on doing an AA at the CC and transferring as a junior?

 

This is the most likely path for her, for both financial and minimizing "check-the-box" requirements reasons.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Looking at the "Academic Plan" that DD created for herself during the group orientation/advising class I see:

-2 English classes plus for CSU only public speaking

-1 math course

-1 arts course

-1 humanities course

-1 additional course in either arts or humanities

-3 social science courses

-1 physical science course

-1 life science course

-1 science lab to be taken with either physical or life science

-foreign language requirement for UC only

-US history & civics for CSU only (can double-count towards the humanities or social science requirement)

 

She also finds it appealing that these are all 1-semester courses so she only has to tolerate the courses that don't really interest her for 4 months rather than 10 as a high school course would be.

 

[CloverBee&Reverie]

Don't go and tempt me lol. I've finally resigned myself to my daughter not striving for a-g, but fulfilling requirements other ways. We've done about 1 month into a local charter school and while we could get a-g through them, it wouldn't be her doing any of the courses we have planned for her. It's been such a nightmare trying to decide what to do with all of this. 

 

YES! I feel the same way- we finally made peace with not following the  a-g path (for us it was "why bother homeschooling if we can't have academic freedom in our coursework and I'm just doing the same thing as the PS students?!..." ) .  For college we're currently looking at BFA Musical Theatre requirements so a stronger arts base is more important for us than standardized a-g coursework.  Good luck and stay strong! :)

[quark]

YES! I feel the same way- we finally made peace with not following the  a-g path (for us it was "why bother homeschooling if we can't have academic freedom in our coursework and I'm just doing the same thing as the PS students?!..." ) .  For college we're currently looking at BFA Musical Theatre requirements so a stronger arts base is more important for us than standardized a-g coursework.  Good luck and stay strong! :)

 

Lol, I like your siggy! (and if you are relatively new as your post count suggests, welcome!).

 

Just a general reference and not to anyone in particular. One of the options I wasn't aware of when we were still part of a homeschool charter was that we could opt for DS to not choose the charter's college prep track and therefore, not have to put up with the constant pressure to use a-g courses and a highly qualified teacher approved by the charter school. We could continue doing our own thing and then in junior/ senior year, pull out and file our PSA so I could issue my own transcript. When we got to the point where it was becoming ridiculous for the charter to not count his high school level work (DS was in 6th grade by age), my ES mentioned this possibility (because she had become a friend and not just a charter school official to us). Our situation was somewhat pressing at the time. We really needed more flexibility and charters of any sort were turning out to be too oppressive despite the generous stipends so we pulled out at that time anyway. But if we could have stayed on, we might have and then pulled out just before junior or senior year for the flexibility to prepare our own transcript/ records for application/ admission.

 

Something for people in a similar situation to keep in mind/ consider/ research.

 

[daijobu]

What a great thread.  This should be pinned.  I'll add a couple of ways to satisfy a-g:

 

New to the scene is LanguageBird, approved for Spanish I-IV.  We don't have personal experience except dd got a free trial which I thought was pretty good.  She's opted to stay with current spanish teacher (not a-g approved) but planning to take spanish sat subject test.

 

For performing arts, in the Bay Area, dd participates in Peninsula Youth Theater which offers a concurrent enrollment with Foothill for college credit without any additional work beyond what one would normally do to participate (evening rehearsals, performances in Mountain View).  Wizard of Oz in November!  I think that satisfies a-g?

 

Stanford OHS.  Pricey, but you can go for a single course or part time, and they offer a-g approved classes.  

 

I'm curious what experience people have had with Silicon Valley OHS?

 

 

[Laura in CA]

Entering late to the party! :) I have posted in the thread on the College Board about what courses we used. Since my son is now a junior (how did that happen?) at a UC, it has been three years since he applied. I am glad there are so many new options for coursework! And I am glad there are people with more-recent experience with the UC applications. I will just add a few observations about my son's experiences at Berkeley, which he absolutely loves (Go Bears! :) ).

I am not sure where a PP got her info about intro courses being taught by an “army†of grad students and adjunct profs … at Berkeley, at least (and yes, I know it is the flagship campus, and prides itself on being one of the highest-ranked unis in the world), all the courses my son has ever heard of are taught by full professors, including Calc 1 and Computer Sci 1 – he says they are taught not only by full professors, but by “famous†and popular ones (and only very occasionally by junior profs). I have to say, I am very, very impressed by the UC professors we have met in person, heard speak, watched online ... Owing to various factors, including fabulous weather, haha, Berkeley has managed to lure quite a few outstanding profs from overseas, from prestigious schools back East, etc.

Yes, there are budget woes, but I am still astounded by the depth and breadth of courses offered, at least at UC Berkeley. For example, students can choose from 59 (!) languages in 14 departments, from Telugu to Old Norse to Breton. (This isn't true at, say, UCSC, which offers only a handful of languages.)

There are plenty of opportunities for doing research with professors; many of my son’s friends are doing exactly that. At large schools, students have to take initiative and be self-starters (and, prospective employers know that), but opportunities are limited only by the drive of the students themselves. My son has been a full TA for math and CS courses since sophomore year. Yes, intro classes are huge (but taught by engaging profs; they told us that Berkeley has special professorships – precisely for these large intro classes – in which the professor’s time consists of 3/4 teaching, and only 1/4 research), but that gives more opportunity for undergrads to be TAs, graders, and mentors (my son has been all three). Also, my son (who is just starting his junior year) has a math class this semester with ONE other student – he and a friend wanted to study something advanced (Ergodic theory?) and got approval for a special topics (Math 199) class. The two of them meet every other week with a professor (whom they approached) and are having a ball.

Of course we know plenty of homeschooled kids who attend LACs, or who transferred to UCs after CC, but I would venture to say that many of the most academically minded kids in our homeschooling circle have ended up at UCs, including Berkeley, as freshmen. We know quite a few homeschooled students at Berkeley who were wait-listed at Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. Sure, if they had gotten into these "lottery" schools, their parents would probably have made it work; but they are all thriving at Cal. Berkeley is also very homeschool-friendly – we had absolutely no problem with sending a homemade transcript, for instance. We know homeschoolers at Berkeley who are Regents' and Chancellor's Scholars, Drake Scholars (full ride!), etc.

Another common misconception is that it will take ages to graduate. (We have heard horror stories about this at CSUs, but not at Berkeley, at least). You do have to be savvy to get the classes you need, at least at first (something I never had to worry about at my own undergrad (private) college), but again, future employers know these students didn't have their hands held, and everything seems to work out eventually in terms of courses. And students at Berkeley are limited to 8 semesters total (9, for a double major), and advisors work with the students to make it happen. As a PP said, many students, including my son, could graduate in two years or less, even entering as freshman (UC accepted all of my son's AP exams and CSU/CC classes for credit), but he is like a kid in a candy store, and will take the full 4+ years (he is doing a double major).

Like a lot of moms I know on these boards and IRL, I did urge my boys to consider small LACs – CTCL, George Fox, etc. They, and many of their friends, chose large public schools, in CA and in other western states, and are thriving – in many cases finding their “nicheâ€/“tribe†in smaller groups of students, by trying something new or exploring something more familiar – ballroom dance, hiking clubs, sports, campus fellowships, etc.

As we hear a lot at Berkeley – you can make a large school smaller, but you can’t make a small school larger. And, I laugh all the way to the bank when I pay tuition each semester. (It is true that the private unis my son applied to offered him "tuition discounts" that brought the total price down to the UC range; he chose Berkeley and hasn't looked back.)

Edited September 14, 2016 by Laura in CA

[daijobu]

 

 

As we hear a lot at Berkeley – you can make a large school smaller, but you can’t make a small school larger. And, I laugh all the way to the bank when I pay tuition each semester. (It is true that the private unis my son applied to offered him "tuition discounts" that brought the total price down to the UC range; he chose Berkeley and hasn't looked back.)

 

 

Thank you for the happy news about your son at UCB.  You've addressed nearly all of the concerns I had about the UCs, particularly about budget impacts.  I have one more question.  When I arrived at college (about 1500 in a class), I found it difficult to find my tribe.  There were students in various ethnic groups who quickly joined those organizations.  There were the athletes and the people in Greek organizations.  I wasn't any of these and felt socially lost.  To be fair, I'm not really the best at cultivating friendships, but I still have concerns about social opportunities for my own kids.  

 

Does your have any insights about social opportunities at Berkeley?  Is it easy to feel lost if you aren't a member of an ethnic group or an athlete or in a fraternity/sorority?  Thank you for your insight.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Do the A-G requirements apply to out of state applicants too?

[quark]

Do the A-G requirements apply to out of state applicants too?

 

There is no pre-approved course list but they do ask you to the refer to the CA list for guidance.

 

ETA: If homeschooled,

 

"If you’re completing high school through home schooling, there are a few options for meeting UC admission requirements, depending on your situation. To help find which option is right for you, you should determine if:

1. Your home schooling courses are UC-approved for satisfying a-g requirements (for students in California) or are essentially equivalent to UC-approved courses for California high schools (for out-of-state students).
2. You’re issued an official high school transcript and diploma through a public school district.

If your home schooling does both of these, you should follow the same admission requirements for students in traditional high schools in California. If your home schooling does not meet the two criteria above, your best option for admission is by examination."

 

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by quark

[daijobu]

 

Entering late to the party! :) I have posted in the thread on the College Board about what courses we used. 

 

 

 

Did your ds satisfy every single a-g?  

[Crimson Wife]

Do the A-G requirements apply to out of state applicants too?

 

No, and that is one thing that infuriates me about the a-g requirements applying to CA residents who attend private schools (home-based or classroom-based).

[Laura in CA]

Thank you for the happy news about your son at UCB.  You've addressed nearly all of the concerns I had about the UCs, particularly about budget impacts.  I have one more question.  When I arrived at college (about 1500 in a class), I found it difficult to find my tribe.  There were students in various ethnic groups who quickly joined those organizations.  There were the athletes and the people in Greek organizations.  I wasn't any of these and felt socially lost.  To be fair, I'm not really the best at cultivating friendships, but I still have concerns about social opportunities for my own kids.  

 

Does your have any insights about social opportunities at Berkeley?  Is it easy to feel lost if you aren't a member of an ethnic group or an athlete or in a fraternity/sorority?  Thank you for your insight.  

 

I will ask my son directly and try to add his reply, but he has been very busy, so it might take a few days. I'll add my thoughts for now – for both of my boys (at large public universities, one in CA and one out of state), as their faith is very important to them, they have found the bulk of their friendships within the faith community. But they also have found buddies through study groups (some of which they have organized themselves); hiking and biking (and for the non-CA kid, shooting :) ) groups, both organized and informal; low-key sports teams (frisbee, volleyball, running, etc.); and just like-minded (non-partying) kids in their dorms (both boys lived on-campus for the first two years). There are many other "geeky" opportunities – for example, my son was toying with minoring in German or Yiddish, and the German Dept holds a regular movie night, Kaffeeklatsch, and Stammtisch.

 

Neither of my boys has joined an ethnic group or a frat. Berkeley in particular has a wide variety of student groups, and I know kids from our town who have joined the student newspaper at Cal, a pre-business club, the debate club (Model UN, I think?), an a cappella group, the campus radio station; there are over 1200 (!) on-campus clubs, from mixed-race students to Republicans to ballroom dance to honor societies to many religious groups. (Another link for an overview, but the sub-links don't work.) Oh yes, my son is also active with his departmental honor society, which offers free tutoring and runs some fun events. Oh, and he also helped with various high-school-level math contests held on campus, and he participated in a computer-science coding contest (the students and the professor took BART to SF for the all-day contest). Of course it helps if you know at least one person when checking out a group, but my kids have gotten brave about trying things at least once ... :)

 

When I was in college (also 1500 in a class; I refused to apply to Berkeley, haha, which was much larger, even back then) I found friends in my dorm; my classes/major; and a dance group I was a member of. And of course religious groups.