Smoking on the sidewalk

[Χά�ων]

I don't think most smokers want to be able to smoke anywhere - just what is allowed according to the law. (fwiw, I don't smoke)

 

If you want people to only be able to smoke in their homes, get that law passed :) Until then, please don't assault people who are obeying the law.

 

eta: I would be surprised if your neighbors and the city (if you are in a populated area) didn't take exception to a sprinkler that sprays whoever is walking down the sidewalk every time they do it all day. Surely someone (a non-smoker, even!) would complain and the city would ask you to change your system so the sprinklers don't get the sidewalk.

If I did not end up in the ER every.single.time I am exposed to second hand smoke I would be more willing to live and let live. Did I mention it is every.single.time? A couple of weeks ago I was exposed to some sort of smoke and had an anaphalactic reaction. I was on my back deck. Not fun at all.

 

Sprinklers set to go off and will keep people from hanging around and smoking outside my home will keep me alive. I rather like living TYVM.

 

Not everyone has this severe of a reaction and I understand to many it is just annoying. For me, it is not so simple.

[redsquirrel]

how would that work?  Are people hanging out on your property smoking?

 

I live in a small city and I am responsible for a couple yards of sidewalk.  The sidewalk runs right under my living room windows and people are walking up and down it all the time and at all hours.  Well, not ALL the time, lol. Right now the streets are empty, but people come an go, kwim?

 

How in the world would I stop people who are walking down the street, minding their own business, going to work or whatever, from smoking or talking on their phones or singing...all of which they do every day. In the amount of time it takes them to walk past my house it would take longer for them to somehow stop smoking etc.  It doesn't make a lot of logistic sense.  Not to mention that I doubt I am legally allowed to, any more than I am legally allowed to collect a fee for walking down my sidewalk.

 

But good luck with that. Why don't you try it and report back. I'm sure it would be fascinating. 

[Farrar]

I feel like some of the people who find the original desire behind the request to be ludicrous haven't ever had people stop and plant themselves in front of their house and lounge on the sidewalk that's only a few feet or less away from their front windows for hours at a time smoking various things. Welcome to urban life, folks.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Farrar

[eternalsummer]

I feel like some of the people who find the original desire behind the request to be ludicrous haven't ever had people stop and plant themselves in front of their house and lounge on the sidewalk that's only a few feet or less away from their front windows for hours at a time smoking various things. Welcome to urban life, folks.

 

Yes, that would be different than if someone were smoking while walking down the sidewalk in front of my house (it's 20 ft from the front door).  If someone stood right outside my front windows and loitered around smoking (or playing loud music, or talking to themselves, or wearing strong perfume, or letting their dog bark at the neighbor's dog, or any other variety of obnoxious activities) I'd be inclined to ask them to move along.  I'd also assume it would not be legal to do that, though. (depending on where I lived).

 

Also, I don't live in the downtown area of a city for pretty much exactly this reason.  I don't really like people much.

 

I do like the smell of secondhand cigarette smoke, though - both my parents smoked indoors when I was a kid, so it is sort of comforting in a strange way.

[Catalytic]

The OP hasn't been back yet to clarify her post, so we're all just working on assumptions.

 

However, as a smoker, I've yet to see a legal smoking area that has a sign saying Lysol isn't allowed, so I'm going to stick with my Lysol if they don't move on when asked.  Though, I can't imagine someone not moving if politely asked/told the smoke is bothering someone (well, I can imagine it, but I personally would put my cigarette out post-haste and move along)

 

(ananemone, my step-father quit smoking in his 30s or 40s...until he died in his late 70s, he absolutely adored the smell of smoke.  He would literally beg my sister or I to smoke in his truck as often as possible so he could smell it.  Drove my mother absolutely insane.  We also don't like people, which is why we bought our home where there are no sidewalks!)

[Lucy the Valiant]

Definitely sprinklers.

 

Or a well-timed audio review of Latin conjugations, turned up *just* high enough . . . :lol: 

[Farrar]

Yes, that would be different than if someone were smoking while walking down the sidewalk in front of my house (it's 20 ft from the front door).  If someone stood right outside my front windows and loitered around smoking (or playing loud music, or talking to themselves, or wearing strong perfume, or letting their dog bark at the neighbor's dog, or any other variety of obnoxious activities) I'd be inclined to ask them to move along.  I'd also assume it would not be legal to do that, though. (depending on where I lived).

 

Also, I don't live in the downtown area of a city for pretty much exactly this reason.  I don't really like people much.

 

I do like the smell of secondhand cigarette smoke, though - both my parents smoked indoors when I was a kid, so it is sort of comforting in a strange way.

 

It's generally not legal to loiter on or block the sidewalk though. That's pretty common to most jurisdictions. And you'll find that loitering laws can be big in urban areas for this exact reason.

 

I mean, I get it. There are places to loiter and hang out - there are three parks within two blocks of my house - but the parks don't allow smoking. And the cops patrol those spots more regularly than a random block sometimes so if you want to smoke and play dice, someone else's sidewalk spot is often preferable seeming.

[eternalsummer]

It's generally not legal to loiter on or block the sidewalk though. That's pretty common to most jurisdictions. And you'll find that loitering laws can be big in urban areas for this exact reason.

 

I mean, I get it. There are places to loiter and hang out - there are three parks within two blocks of my house - but the parks don't allow smoking. And the cops patrol those spots more regularly than a random block sometimes so if you want to smoke and play dice, someone else's sidewalk spot is often preferable seeming.

 

I meant that I assumed it would be illegal to loiter, not illegal to ask a loiterer to move along :)

 

I think we are in agreement.  I don't think I would be a good city dweller.  I spent a week in NYC once in the East Village with my husband's aunt, and that was almost exactly as long as I could tolerate so many people in such a close space.  Her actual apartment was quite an oasis, though, even though it was small.

[heartlikealion]

If I did not end up in the ER every.single.time I am exposed to second hand smoke I would be more willing to live and let live. Did I mention it is every.single.time? A couple of weeks ago I was exposed to some sort of smoke and had an anaphalactic reaction. I was on my back deck. Not fun at all.

 

Sprinklers set to go off and will keep people from hanging around and smoking outside my home will keep me alive. I rather like living TYVM.

 

Not everyone has this severe of a reaction and I understand to many it is just annoying. For me, it is not so simple.

 

I feel like if people knew how serious your reactions were they might be willing to stop. I would consider a sign or some type of face-to-face interaction (maybe someone from your home could approach them on your behalf or you could get to them before they lit up). My in-laws didn't take our complaints about their smoking around ds seriously until he was sent home from the dr with a nebulizer.*

 

I'm not sure if your situation is quite the same as the OP's, but I could understand if you went straight to the sprinklers if you felt that was the most efficient for you. Then, wouldn't you get sprayed everytime you went to your own mailbox, took out the trash, etc., though?

 

*yes, we routinely removed him from areas when we saw our wishes were not honored.

Edited September 5, 2016 by heartlikealion

[madteaparty]

ah, never mind. I see it has been thoroughly covered. Reminder to read the entire thread :)

Edited September 5, 2016 by madteaparty

[idnib]

I feel the need to remind folks that Lysol is flammable....

Edited September 5, 2016 by idnib

[madteaparty]

how would that work? Are people hanging out on your property smoking?

 

I live in a small city and I am responsible for a couple yards of sidewalk. The sidewalk runs right under my living room windows and people are walking up and down it all the time and at all hours. Well, not ALL the time, lol. Right now the streets are empty, but people come an go, kwim?

 

How in the world would I stop people who are walking down the street, minding their own business, going to work or whatever, from smoking or talking on their phones or singing...all of which they do every day. In the amount of time it takes them to walk past my house it would take longer for them to somehow stop smoking etc. It doesn't make a lot of logistic sense. Not to mention that I doubt I am legally allowed to, any more than I am legally allowed to collect a fee for walking down my sidewalk.

 

But good luck with that. Why don't you try it and report back. I'm sure it would be fascinating.

Well you open your window and spray Lysol, naturally. :)

[Catalytic]

Good grief, since everyone is up in arms about Lysol, then my second recommendation is to politely ask the individual to move on, and if they don't, get out your push lawn mower, remove the bag, aim the chute at the sidewalk and start mowing.  Preferably over rocks.

[eternalsummer]

again with the assault!

[kolamum]

Just scanning posts.. I feel for you. We once had a home that was 6' from our neighbour's garage. They used the garage to drink, smoke, play loud music, & do other unsavoury things. Our masterbedroom was RIGHT there. We couldn't have the windows open for the smell of cigarette smoke coming in. Ugh.

However, if it was happening outside my fenced in property I might put a sign up on the fence that says "no smoking with in x of fence.." However, I'd also be tempted to speak with my local council about the situation. I don't know about yours but mine is pretty good about responding really quickly when we've had issues.. like the time the construction workers thought they were SUPER amusing & put their stupid sign on the edge of my driveway so I could either hit the sign or the neighbour's car because said neighbour doesn't think they should bother using their rather large driveway. I digress.. ;)

[Lolly]

I don't think most smokers want to be able to smoke anywhere - just what is allowed according to the law.  (fwiw, I don't smoke)

 

If you want people to only be able to smoke in their homes, get that law passed :)  Until then, please don't assault people who are obeying the law.

 

eta: I would be surprised if your neighbors and the city (if you are in a populated area) didn't take exception to a sprinkler that sprays whoever is walking down the sidewalk every time they do it all day.  Surely someone (a non-smoker, even!) would complain and the city would ask you to change your system so the sprinklers don't get the sidewalk.

I feel lucky that the laws are as strict as they are. I seriously doubt making them more stringent is going to happen anytime soon. Of course, even with the laws we have, most smokers don't seem to follow or even know what the laws are. Most college campuses these days are legally smoke free, however, that does not stop anyone from smoking on them. The vast majority of our population does not really notice smokers and where they smoke. As a parent with a dc who is extremely allergic to it (she wears a mask when out in public for this reason, but it really isn't enough), I pick up the smell of smoke from an incredible distance. No matter where we go, there are always many, many, many, many smokers who are smoking where it is illegal. If you say something to them, which I do, you are quite frequently (more often than not) treated horribly. The most "normal" response is for them to blow smoke directly at you and turn around so they are no longer facing you. Most often, this response is a result of simply being asked to move from the doorway (which it is illegal to be smoking beside) so that my dc can leave the premises without having to use a rescue inhaler immediately after walking out. We do have a problem in that the legally required distance from the doorway is not actually far enough for her to safely pass, but with a mask, a scarf bunched over her face, and holding her breath running by she can usually manage to only have a coughing fit.

 

Smoking anywhere other than inside your own, personal, individual home should be illegal. There does come a problem even with that because homes that house more than one family should not have smoking allowed anywhere in them at all. In addition, it should be illegal in homes that have minor children. People tend to have a problem with that.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Lolly

[Χά�ων]

I feel like if people knew how serious your reactions were they might be willing to stop. I would consider a sign or some type of face-to-face interaction (maybe someone from your home could approach them on your behalf or you could get to them before they lit up). My in-laws didn't take our complaints about their smoking around ds seriously until he was sent home from the dr with a nebulizer.*

 

I'm not sure if your situation is quite the same as the OP's, but I could understand if you went straight to the sprinklers if you felt that was the most efficient for you. Then, wouldn't you get sprayed everytime you went to your own mailbox, took out the trash, etc., though?

 

*yes, we routinely removed him from areas when we saw our wishes were not honored.

Sadly, IME smokers do not care and get highly offended when asked to refrain from smoking near me. My own mother, a nurse no less, who has spent many hours with me in the ER during asthma attacks, had a fit when I asked her to not smoke in the car as she was taking me to the ER during an asthma attack. I have never had an experience with any smoker who felt any different. Every smoker I know views any restrictions and an infringement on their right to smoke and are highly offended by being asked to move or refrain from smoking. Because they have rights and by golly if you do not like it you can F off. I have no experience with a smoker with an ounce of compassion for those harmed by their behavior. It is addiction and they must have their fix and wh it hurts does not matter as long as they get their fix whenever and whereever they may be. I find it more sad than anything. I cannot imagine having that state of mind and knowingly doing something that has been proven over and over again to cause harm to other people.

 

My understanding is that the sprinklers have a way to shut them off. I looked at them to keep deer out of my garden and while I do not recall the specifics, I simply cannot imagine there would be no way to over ride it so I could work in my garden.

[poppy]

If I did not end up in the ER every.single.time I am exposed to second hand smoke I would be more willing to live and let live. Did I mention it is every.single.time? A couple of weeks ago I was exposed to some sort of smoke and had an anaphalactic reaction. I was on my back deck. Not fun at all.

 

Sprinklers set to go off and will keep people from hanging around and smoking outside my home will keep me alive. I rather like living TYVM.

 

Not everyone has this severe of a reaction and I understand to many it is just annoying. For me, it is not so simple.

 

And this is exactly why I compared smoking to eating peanuts. 

 

Look, I"d like smoking to be banned, but it isn't, and because it isn't, I find the suggestions to get rid of smokers through water / rocks / poop kind of gross.  It's like saying you don't like seeing fat people in your yard, because it's setting a bad health example (which is - maybe - true, prob non)  and is contagious (which is true, look it up).  So what's the best way to get rid of them? and getting the suggestion to chuck things at them. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by poppy

[Bluegoat]

I feel like some of the people who find the original desire behind the request to be ludicrous haven't ever had people stop and plant themselves in front of their house and lounge on the sidewalk that's only a few feet or less away from their front windows for hours at a time smoking various things. Welcome to urban life, folks.

 

I feel like this is a little fraught though.  Since urban living has increased in popularity here, there have been quite a few attempts to santitize it for the comfort of those moving into the nice new condos and such - they complain about the noise from the trainyard, they complain about music in bars, they complain about people walking home from bars smoking in the wee hours.

 

That's the trade-off with urban living - you have to put up with other people and the things they do which you don't like, living close to you.  THat's what some people like about it.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Bluegoat

[creekland]

I feel like this is a little fraught though.  Since urban living has increased in popularity here, there have been quite a few attempts to santitize it for the comfort of those moving into the nice new condos and such - they complain about the noise from the trainyard, they complain about music in bars, they complain about people walking home from bars smoking in the wee hours.

 

That's the trade-off with urban living - you have to put up with other people and the things they do which you don't like, living close to you.  THat's what some people like about it.

 

It's not any different for those of us living in rural life.  People moving from the cities have literally tried to ban weeds (even in pastures and fields), noisy animals past 8 or 10pm (good luck trying to tell a hormonal bull or stallion about the time limits), hours that farm equipment can be used or on roads, offensive manure smells (generally from fertilizing fields), and more.  Fortunately, they haven't had any luck (so far).  What has changed is that any time a house or land is sold around here one MUST put a notice on the deed that the new buyer has to sign acknowledging the right to farm and giving up any right to legally complain.  City/suburb folks can move in, but they can't take over our lives to suit the calendar picture lifestyle they want (yet).

[Χά�ων]

And this is exactly why I compared smoking to eating peanuts.

 

Look, I"d like smoking to be banned, but it isn't, and because it isn't, I find the suggestions to get rid of smokers through water / rocks / poop kind of gross. It's like saying you don't like seeing fat people in your yard, because it's setting a bad health example (which is - maybe - true, prob non) and is contagious (which is true, look it up). So what's the best way to get rid of them? and getting the suggestion to chuck things at them.

Sooo in your mind their right to stand outside my home on a sidewalk I am legally responsible to maintain and smoke, trumps my right to breathe in my own home?

 

I am not suggesting to pelt smokers with rocks or poo if they smoke on their own property. They can stand in the middle of the street and smoke (people do weirder things here). They can walk down the street. They can sit outside a bar and smoke (I know that if I am walking down a street that has a bar with outside seating to cross the street). They can smoke in their car. They can smoke in their home. They have the right to engage in an activity in areas that limit where I can go safely, and I know and avoid designated smoking areas. Outside my own home where the smoke will enter my private residence and cause me great harm? I do not view a small, harmless, deterrent as a horrible thing. Compared to a peanut allergy, I would actually be more agressive if there was a peanut allergy and someone was stand outside my home throwing powdered peanutbutter in the air.

 

Did you ever play in a sprinkler as a kid? Ever try to avoid getting wet when someone was waterrig their yard over the sidewalk you wanted to ride on? It is not hard.

 

ETA: A person dealing with obesity standing my yard will not land me in the hospital every time. Obesity is not going to enter through my window as I am sitting in the living room.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Χά�ων

[Bluegoat]

It's not any different for those of us living in rural life.  People moving from the cities have literally tried to ban weeds (even in pastures and fields), noisy animals past 8 or 10pm (good luck trying to tell a hormonal bull or stallion about the time limits), hours that farm equipment can be used or on roads, offensive manure smells (generally from fertilizing fields), and more.  Fortunately, they haven't had any luck (so far).  What has changed is that any time a house or land is sold around here one MUST put a notice on the deed that the new buyer has to sign acknowledging the right to farm and giving up any right to legally complain.  City/suburb folks can move in, but they can't take over our lives to suit the calendar picture lifestyle they want (yet).

 

Yes, I've seen this too when I lived rurally.  Sometimes I think the suburbs are a very corrupting influence.

 

THough - it's sometimes necessary to be a little discerning - I've seen areas where industrial agriculture wants to claim that what they are doing is ok because it is "just agriculture" when locals complain about them spreading things like animal sewage around.

[poppy]

Sooo in your mind their right to stand outside my home on a sidewalk I am legally responsible to maintain and smoke, trumps my right to breathe in my own home?

 

I am not suggesting to pelt smokers with rocks or poo if they smoke on their own property. They can stand in the middle of the street and smoke (people do weirder things here). They can walk down the street. They can sit outside a bar and smoke (I know that if I am walking down a street that has a bar with outside seating to cross the street). They can smoke in their car. They can smoke in their home. They have the right to engage in an activity in areas that limit where I can go safely, and I know and avoid designated smoking areas. Outside my own home where the smoke will enter my private residence and cause me great harm? I do not view a small, harmless, deterrent as a horrible thing. Compared to a peanut allergy, I would actually be more agressive if there was a peanut allergy and someone was stand outside my home throwing powdered peanutbutter in the air.

 

Did you ever play in a sprinkler as a kid? Ever try to avoid getting wet when someone was waterrig their yard over the sidewalk you wanted to ride on? It is not hard.

 

ETA: A person dealing with obesity standing my yard will not land me in the hospital every time. Obesity is not going to enter through my window as I am sitting in the living room.

Everyone has a personal space they own or rent. You can completely restrict smoking , peanut eating, carbon emissions , factory farm meat eating , etc as you like in that space. On the sidewalk, no. You cannot. A smoker can smoke there, a loud talker can talk there, a hot dog can eat hot dogs there. Your recourses are to move and / or lobby for legislation that restricts the behavior you don't like. Or -- close your windows . Closing your windows to avoid stink is exactly as way as avoiding sprinklers really.

[Bluegoat]

I'm a bit surprised that anyone thinks that skokers have some sort of free reign in North America, or a powerful lobby.  The smoking lobby has been pretty much morally and practically destroyed here. 

 

Compared to what it was like even 30 years ago, or in much of the rest of the world now, smoking is highly controlled and regulated here, and the attitude toward it, even from smokers, is very different.

 

 

[Χά�ων]

Everyone has a personal space they own or rent. You can completely restrict smoking , peanut eating, carbon emissions , factory farm meat eating , etc as you like in that space. On the sidewalk, no. You cannot. A smoker can smoke there, a loud talker can talk there, a hot dog can eat hot dogs there. Your recourses are to move and / or lobby for legislation that restricts the behavior you don't like. Or -- close your windows . Closing your windows to avoid stink is exactly as way as avoiding sprinklers really.

My house is designed to utilize the east west breeze for cooling.

 

Lobbying to change smoking behavior is laughable. I have watched the fight over the ban on smoking in public establishments and to have that kind of wrath aimed at my family is, frankly, dangerous. I have not seen any shift in attitude. I see anger at being limited to their "right" to smoke.

 

I am not standing outside wth a high powered hose aiming at smokers. A simple motion activated sprinkler system that will detour loiters is not the same thing. Not even close. There is no way to have it set up to target only smokers and unless there have been major technological breakthroughs anyone can avoid getting wet. If they are walking through theu have nothing to worry about.

[Χά�ων]

I'm a bit surprised that anyone thinks that skokers have some sort of free reign in North America, or a powerful lobby. The smoking lobby has been pretty much morally and practically destroyed here.

 

Compared to what it was like even 30 years ago, or in much of the rest of the world now, smoking is highly controlled and regulated here, and the attitude toward it, even from smokers, is very different.

Must be a regional thing. I have not seen a shift in attitude from smokers and any attempt to limit where they can smoke is met with anger.

 

The attitude is very much "How dare anyone limit my freedom! I have the right to smoke anywhere and everywhere!"

[poppy]

My house is designed to utilize the east west breeze for cooling.

 

Lobbying to change smoking behavior is laughable. I have watched the fight over the ban on smoking in public establishments and to have that kind of wrath aimed at my family is, frankly, dangerous. I have not seen any shift in attitude. I see anger at being limited to their "right" to smoke.

 

I am not standing outside wth a high powered hose aiming at smokers. A simple motion activated sprinkler system that will detour loiters is not the same thing. Not even close. There is no way to have it set up to target only smokers and unless there have been major technological breakthroughs anyone can avoid getting wet. If they are walking through theu have nothing to worry about.

So you have set up sprinklers to avoid having anyone in front of your residence ? That's kind of ugly, but , you will probably not see a negative consequence . *shrug* I personally do t think you have any moral high ground here - your right to a breeze versus people having to step into the road / traffic to avoid getting wet. But I also doubt anyone will care enough to try and stop you from infringing on their access to public space.

[Wheres Toto]

It is extremely unusual to see anyone smoking in public around here.  I see people in their cars and in designated spots around office buildings but usually that is it (I do notice, I hate the smell and it kicks up my asthma).

 

On the other hand, it's not at all unusual to see someone watering their lawn (even in the rain!) and have the sprinklers hitting the sidewalk or the road at some point in it's cycle.   In the OP's scenario, I wouldn't think twice about turning on a sprinkler that might occasionally hit the sidewalk. It shouldn't affect people who are just walking up the street (maybe they pause for a second or walk around it) but it would keep people from hanging around smoking.  Nobody would be harmed or even get wet if they are paying attention.

[Amy in NH]

Yes, I've seen this too when I lived rurally. Sometimes I think the suburbs are a very corrupting influence.

 

THough - it's sometimes necessary to be a little discerning - I've seen areas where industrial agriculture wants to claim that what they are doing is ok because it is "just agriculture" when locals complain about them spreading things like animal sewage around.

You do know that fertilizer is made of manure, right? All the dairy farmers in my rural community and beyond spread it on their hay fields. They need to fertilize between each cutting to have enough hay grow for the next cutting. They need all that hay to feed their cows, especially through the winter. Cows do not make beef and milk without quality feed.

[Χά�ων]

So you have set up sprinklers to avoid having anyone in front of your residence ? That's kind of ugly, but , you will probably not see a negative consequence . *shrug* I personally do t think you have any moral high ground here - your right to a breeze versus people having to step into the road / traffic to avoid getting wet. But I also doubt anyone will care enough to try and stop you from infringing on their access to public space.

I am not claiming moral high ground. I am claiming the ability to breathe. I do not hide my disdain for smokers who insist on smoking around other people knowing the dangers to them.

 

Stepping into our street is not a big deal here. The neighor parks on the street and it creates a buffer where cars go around. There is tons of room to walk in the street without fear of getting hit.

[6packofun]

No. Smoking is fairly heavily restricted, if you didn't know.   They are not free to smoke in your home or any private residence.  They are not free to smoke in places of business. They may not smoke at schools or at hospitals.... they are not free to smoke in public buildings in general. They are not free to smoke in many outdoor spaces, like sports arenas .

 

And yet it's scent is powerfully strong and goes *everywhere*.  I've driven behind a smoker, rolled up my windows (and I don't have air or heat, thank you) so that the smoke wouldn't bother me and yet I was still asked by someone at my next stop if I AM A SMOKER.  If someone at work wore horribly strong cologne or perfume, do the people in the cubicles around him or her have a right to complain? I think of it like that, I guess, although smoke lingers way longer. Cigarette smoke smell just clings to everything. Like my hair.  It's a real bummer and I rarely see the restrictions on distance from an establishment being enforced, so often one has to walk out of their way to go around a smoker just to get inside.

 

I know that not all smokers are like this and many follow the rules.  I'm only saying that the rules sure don't keep the rest of us from having to smell it and smell LIKE it which can be very annoying (and upset allergies, sinuses, etc.).

[creekland]

You do know that fertilizer is made of manure, right? All the dairy farmers in my rural community and beyond spread it on their hay fields. They need to fertilize between each cutting to have enough hay grow for the next cutting. They need all that hay to feed their cows, especially through the winter. Cows do not make beef and milk without quality feed.

 

Pony and chicken manure make our garden grow really, really well.   :coolgleamA:   We've never had to buy fertilizer.  We have critters that make our own.  We only apply it in the fall and spring to ensure no "bug" contamination, but that's the only precaution needed.

[poppy]

And yet it's scent is powerfully strong and goes *everywhere*.  I've driven behind a smoker, rolled up my windows (and I don't have air or heat, thank you) so that the smoke wouldn't bother me and yet I was still asked by someone at my next stop if I AM A SMOKER.  If someone at work wore horribly strong cologne or perfume, do the people in the cubicles around him or her have a right to complain? I think of it like that, I guess, although smoke lingers way longer. Cigarette smoke smell just clings to everything. Like my hair.  It's a real bummer and I rarely see the restrictions on distance from an establishment being enforced, so often one has to walk out of their way to go around a smoker just to get inside.

 

I know that not all smokers are like this and many follow the rules.  I'm only saying that the rules sure don't keep the rest of us from having to smell it and smell LIKE it which can be very annoying (and upset allergies, sinuses, etc.).

 

Just to be clear.  I don't like smoke. And I think all agree on that. No need to go into it being bad, unpleasant, not good.... all that is a given.

[redsquirrel]

I get a whiff of cigarette smoke in my living room occasionally due to people walking by.  I don't get them hanging out all the time, just walking past. And it's not even every day.  Not many people seem to smoke these days. If it were more than that I would have a problem. Smoke causes me to have sinus headaches that are migrane-like. But so far, the occasional odor in the air doesn't seem to cause me problems. 

 

But, if a whiff of cigarette smoke could land me in the hospital I would keep the windows closed and invest in air conditioning. If something is truly that dangerous to me then I would not depend on the behaviour of others to keep my safe. I would take steps to keep myself safe. 

 

I have an asthma like attack when people mow grass.  I have a nasty grass allergy.  When I hear a lawn mower starting up, I close the windows and my dh and kids do the same.  I don't expect my neighbors to alert me to their mowing.

 

My sister had an apartment in Brooklyn and it was on the first floor. She had a window that was near the stoop. People would hang out there all day and smoke. She kept that window closed. End of problem.

[heartlikealion]

Sadly, IME smokers do not care and get highly offended when asked to refrain from smoking near me. My own mother, a nurse no less, who has spent many hours with me in the ER during asthma attacks, had a fit when I asked her to not smoke in the car as she was taking me to the ER during an asthma attack. I have never had an experience with any smoker who felt any different. Every smoker I know views any restrictions and an infringement on their right to smoke and are highly offended by being asked to move or refrain from smoking. Because they have rights and by golly if you do not like it you can F off. I have no experience with a smoker with an ounce of compassion for those harmed by their behavior. It is addiction and they must have their fix and wh it hurts does not matter as long as they get their fix whenever and whereever they may be. I find it more sad than anything. I cannot imagine having that state of mind and knowingly doing something that has been proven over and over again to cause harm to other people.

 

My understanding is that the sprinklers have a way to shut them off. I looked at them to keep deer out of my garden and while I do not recall the specifics, I simply cannot imagine there would be no way to over ride it so I could work in my garden.

 

I mean override it every time you go to your trashcan, mailbox, parked car, etc. sounds like a lot of work.

 

I have met smokers with different attitudes. I knew a smoker that got a new car and refused to smoke in it. I know another smoker that got a new vehicle and smokes in it. I would think it would affect resale/trade-in value if nothing else but I know many smokers do not notice/think about that.

 

I have met smokers that will not smoke in front of children without being asked. Mostly the level of concern seems to end with children and/or pregnant women, though. I did date smokers before, some were more courteous than others. Dh is an ex- heavy smoker. I am sorry your mom is so set in her ways about her smoking. It's hard for people to change.

[ktgrok]

Wow! My BIL smokes, and has NEVER done so in my house, near me, etc. He will walk outside, and out to the furthest edge of the yard, etc. I have friends that used to smoke, and when I was pregnant they would leave the patio we were sitting on to go further way to avoid having smoke near me, without me saying a thing. My parents, once the research on 2nd hand smoke came out, stopped smoking in our home immediately, never smoked in the car again, etc to avoid exposing the rest of us. I've never known a rude smoker. 

Sadly, IME smokers do not care and get highly offended when asked to refrain from smoking near me. My own mother, a nurse no less, who has spent many hours with me in the ER during asthma attacks, had a fit when I asked her to not smoke in the car as she was taking me to the ER during an asthma attack. I have never had an experience with any smoker who felt any different. Every smoker I know views any restrictions and an infringement on their right to smoke and are highly offended by being asked to move or refrain from smoking. Because they have rights and by golly if you do not like it you can F off. I have no experience with a smoker with an ounce of compassion for those harmed by their behavior. It is addiction and they must have their fix and wh it hurts does not matter as long as they get their fix whenever and whereever they may be. I find it more sad than anything. I cannot imagine having that state of mind and knowingly doing something that has been proven over and over again to cause harm to other people.

My understanding is that the sprinklers have a way to shut them off. I looked at them to keep deer out of my garden and while I do not recall the specifics, I simply cannot imagine there would be no way to over ride it so I could work in my garden.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I get sick from smelling perfume, scented products (Lysol is especially bad!) as well as cigarette smoke.  I make arrangements to keep myself safe from it.  It's a bummer.  I've had to leave places due to scents (not cigarette) - even church.  If people are obeying the law then I am not going to try and police/shame them further. 

 

 

[FaithManor]

If I did not end up in the ER every.single.time I am exposed to second hand smoke I would be more willing to live and let live. Did I mention it is every.single.time? A couple of weeks ago I was exposed to some sort of smoke and had an anaphalactic reaction. I was on my back deck. Not fun at all.

 

Sprinklers set to go off and will keep people from hanging around and smoking outside my home will keep me alive. I rather like living TYVM.

 

Not everyone has this severe of a reaction and I understand to many it is just annoying. For me, it is not so simple.

Have you tried putting out a sign at the sidewalk stating that an area resident has a life threatening reaction to smoke and to please respecr this difficulty by moving much further down the block to smoke?

 

I would try giving people the chance to do the right thing before going for more drastic measures.

[Bluegoat]

You do know that fertilizer is made of manure, right? All the dairy farmers in my rural community and beyond spread it on their hay fields. They need to fertilize between each cutting to have enough hay grow for the next cutting. They need all that hay to feed their cows, especially through the winter. Cows do not make beef and milk without quality feed.

 

Manure used properly as fertilizer is nothing like what industrial agriculture does to get rid of the waste build-up it creates.  Industrial hog farms or cattle feed-lots are like cities - they are intensive populations where the food is in many cases trucked in.  The waste created is far too much to be simply spread on the land that the farm occupies, and it isn't composted properly anyway in a lot of cases.  This is why you can get ponds of it leaching into rivers and and actually killing the river.

 

The noise, smell, and equipment in that kind of farming really isn't comparable to more traditional farming, it's a lot more like industrial manufacturing.  So when those kinds of operations try and play the farming card to the people living nearby that don't like want to live like that, or worry about the potential damage to their water supply, I think we need to be very careful about accepting that.

[creekland]

Manure used properly as fertilizer is nothing like what industrial agriculture does to get rid of the waste build-up it creates.  Industrial hog farms or cattle feed-lots are like cities - they are intensive populations where the food is in many cases trucked in.  The waste created is far too much to be simply spread on the land that the farm occupies, and it isn't composted properly anyway in a lot of cases.  This is why you can get ponds of it leaching into rivers and and actually killing the river.

 

The noise, smell, and equipment in that kind of farming really isn't comparable to more traditional farming, it's a lot more like industrial manufacturing.  So when those kinds of operations try and play the farming card to the people living nearby that don't like want to live like that, or worry about the potential damage to their water supply, I think we need to be very careful about accepting that.

 

It's not always gloom and doom though.  Many farmers around here solely raise crops.  It's less expensive and just as nutritional (or more) for the soil for them to buy their fertilizer in the form of manure from the larger critter raising farms.  They can usually do well side by side.  Yes, sometimes accidents happen, but that happens in any business.  It doesn't have to be farming.  The legal fines imposed later tend to keep most doing their best to avoid pollution.  

 

There was a fertilizer manufacturing plant fire here a little over a year ago.  That killed oodles of fish and polluted the water.  There have been worse fertilizer plant accidents.  Some have killed people.

[goldberry]

Am I the only one who keeps hearing the song "Smokin' in the Boys Room" in my head whenever I see this thread title?  Smokin' on the sidewalk....

 

Okay, carry on.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Wow! My BIL smokes, and has NEVER done so in my house, near me, etc. He will walk outside, and out to the furthest edge of the yard, etc. I have friends that used to smoke, and when I was pregnant they would leave the patio we were sitting on to go further way to avoid having smoke near me, without me saying a thing. My parents, once the research on 2nd hand smoke came out, stopped smoking in our home immediately, never smoked in the car again, etc to avoid exposing the rest of us. I've never known a rude smoker. 

 

Not my sister.  I stopped allowing her to visit because it was so bad.  She even started using our salt bucket as an ash tray.  (Salt for icy walkways.)  And I stopped visiting her.  Haven't seen her in many years. 

 

She nearly died a few weeks ago from an ailment so was in the hospital for weeks and could not smoke.  She announced she was quitting.  If she really does, I will go visit her.  Hate to sound like a jerk, but I hate smoking that much and she was that rude about it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah, but the poster being picked apart by the righteous is talking about being in her house.

 

I too leave places if people refuse to take their second hand smoke away from me. I'm not a rock thrower, Lysol sprayer or police caller.

 

But if a smoker continues to blow smoke outside your home, having been asked politely to move away...they are incredibly rude, and I can understand why a person would want to discourage that. 

 

Smokers pollute the air in ways dangerous to others. There's a limit to compassion, and I'd say it probably ends when someone's smoke is drifting in through the windows of your own home.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the actual OP hasn't come back to clarify as to just how bad a problem this is. I realize that another poster has spoken out about a severe reaction/allergy to cigarette smoke and that person seems to be exposed to it a lot more than I am in my small city.  Or even the big city, for that matter. 

 

I have had neighbors who smoked - on their own property - but the houses are close enough and air currents were such that smoke then came into my open windows.  Being neighbors, it was a bigger problem than some random event because they had a habit of going out to their back deck to smoke esp. at night after work.  I had to spend money that I didn't really have to come up with a solution that protected my health but still allowed them the freedom to smoke on their own property (portable air conditioners that allowed me to keep the windows closed while still managing the difficulties I have with heat plus the addition of a whole-house air cleaner).  I feel like that is part of the cost of living in country which allows certain freedoms - as disgusting and unhealthy as I personally may judge them.  The choices I made weren't the only ones available - I understand that there are even smoke free apartment buildings in some places.  I don't consider that much different than making other choices to other significant health challenges like someone moving to where they have access to certain therapies for example.

 

Where I grew up, I would have had a serious problem with the frequency and ubiquity of smoking.  But I would have had to make choices (once I was grown up) to protect my own health.  That may have included moving (which I did but for different reasons).  I know that where I am now, smoking is not that huge a problem.  Some people do smoke, of course, but not in public spaces and where they do smoke, I am almost always able to cross the street or choose a different route in some way.  That is rare though.  I think that I've had to move to get away from random smokers perhaps twice in the last six months? 

[Farrar]

I feel like this is a little fraught though.  Since urban living has increased in popularity here, there have been quite a few attempts to santitize it for the comfort of those moving into the nice new condos and such - they complain about the noise from the trainyard, they complain about music in bars, they complain about people walking home from bars smoking in the wee hours.

 

That's the trade-off with urban living - you have to put up with other people and the things they do which you don't like, living close to you.  THat's what some people like about it.

 

Yeah, I pointed that out in one of my other posts - that the trade off for calling the police over people lounging around on the sidewalk (doing whatever) is that you're calling the cops on people who are probably the most likely to be abused by the police for something that's pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. There have been some memes lately basically appealing to people not to do this.

 

Don't get me wrong... I like urban living. I've been in the inner city for fifteen years now. It's a lot whiter and richer now, that's for sure. And that's not just where I am - inner cities in general are becoming whiter, younger, and more affluent. I've seen some horrible things and some crazy things and some excellent things. And a lot of middling annoying things like people using my twenty feet or so of sidewalk as a social gathering space. My main point was really that I think a lot of the people in this thread can't conceive of what that would even be like to have people just hanging out, standing, sitting, setting up chairs on the sidewalk in front of your house. And that the sidewalk in front of your house might be just a couple of yards or less from your front windows.

[FaithManor]

It's not any different for those of us living in rural life. People moving from the cities have literally tried to ban weeds (even in pastures and fields), noisy animals past 8 or 10pm (good luck trying to tell a hormonal bull or stallion about the time limits), hours that farm equipment can be used or on roads, offensive manure smells (generally from fertilizing fields), and more. Fortunately, they haven't had any luck (so far). What has changed is that any time a house or land is sold around here one MUST put a notice on the deed that the new buyer has to sign acknowledging the right to farm and giving up any right to legally complain. City/suburb folks can move in, but they can't take over our lives to suit the calendar picture lifestyle they want (yet).

We get that all the time here. Because it is beautiful here and the COL is low, we get a lot of retirees from the burbs of Detroit. This area is heavily agricultural along with tons of state land.

 

Things they have demanded at the township meetings? The fencing of all state land so deer can't cross the road. All fertilizer. All manure. Restriction of movement of all farm equipment on public roads from 5 am to midnight. All chickens. All cows because they are smelly. And my personal favorite, one lady wanted to ban the Amish. Yes, you read that last one correctly.

 

The worst of these individuals do not make it here and go back to urban living though at the August meeting one gentleman, mad that they refused to make the farmer next door move his cows to a different pasture, punched the township supervisor in the face and then ran. He was picked up two days later for assault.

 

True story. Gah! So short of moving to the Yukon and staying miles away from the nearest human, people are everywhere and some of them be extra problematic!

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, I pointed that out in one of my other posts - that the trade off for calling the police over people lounging around on the sidewalk (doing whatever) is that you're calling the cops on people who are probably the most likely to be abused by the police for something that's pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. There have been some memes lately basically appealing to people not to do this.

 

Don't get me wrong... I like urban living. I've been in the inner city for fifteen years now. It's a lot whiter and richer now, that's for sure. And that's not just where I am - inner cities in general are becoming whiter, younger, and more affluent. I've seen some horrible things and some crazy things and some excellent things. And a lot of middling annoying things like people using my twenty feet or so of sidewalk as a social gathering space. My main point was really that I think a lot of the people in this thread can't conceive of what that would even be like to have people just hanging out, standing, sitting, setting up chairs on the sidewalk in front of your house. And that the sidewalk in front of your house might be just a couple of yards or less from your front windows.

 

Yes, when people use the sidewalk as a public spece, it is a much different atmosphere than when people just walk by.  In a way, too, it isn't so much "your" space then, either, it really belongs to the community.  I can't easily imagine asking the question in the OP about owning or controlling the sidewalk in some sense in that kind of neighbourhood.

[Bluegoat]

It's not always gloom and doom though.  Many farmers around here solely raise crops.  It's less expensive and just as nutritional (or more) for the soil for them to buy their fertilizer in the form of manure from the larger critter raising farms.  They can usually do well side by side.  Yes, sometimes accidents happen, but that happens in any business.  It doesn't have to be farming.  The legal fines imposed later tend to keep most doing their best to avoid pollution.  

 

There was a fertilizer manufacturing plant fire here a little over a year ago.  That killed oodles of fish and polluted the water.  There have been worse fertilizer plant accidents.  Some have killed people.

 

Sure, there are ways to make things work.  My point was just that it isn't always just the annoying city people that want to ban actual country life from the country.  Sometimes it is because what is being called country life is actually something rather different than what used to be seen - kind of like the difference between living next to a blacksmith shop and a giant foundry.

[poppy]

Yeah, but the poster being picked apart by the righteous is talking about being in her house.

 

I too leave places if people refuse to take their second hand smoke away from me. I'm not a rock thrower, Lysol sprayer or police caller.

 

But if a smoker continues to blow smoke outside your home, having been asked politely to move away...they are incredibly rude, and I can understand why a person would want to discourage that. 

 

Smokers pollute the air in ways dangerous to others. There's a limit to compassion, and I'd say it probably ends when someone's smoke is drifting in through the windows of your own home.

 

That would be annoying, particularly if you can't close the window, buy an air conditioner or move.  But, what you gonna do? I mean really.

 

Here is my context. I lived across the street from a house where the front room was rented out.  They rented it for about 2 years to Tony, who smoked fairly regularly, and was not permitted to smoke in the house.  So he sat on the front stoop and smoked. Marlboro Reds.  I did not directly smell the smoke most of the time. On a summer day with windows open sometimes I could get a trace of it.  As a person without a severe allergy, I would label it "mildly annoying".  Not more annoying than some of the dog walkers or a few of the SUV owners. I realized "small town across the street" is not exactly the same as "in a window right next to the sidewalk" but honestly, it was not a huge problem. The biggest issue I had with Tony was once my daughter told me at dinner that she went up to Tony and explained to him that smoking is very bad for you and wrong. I was mortified . That my 7 year old lectured an adult - a 50ish recently divorced guy.  I didn't like having to have that conversation about how she was completely right and completely wrong at the same time.

 

I think the conversation has ventured beyond the OP, who really just asked a simple question. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah, I pointed that out in one of my other posts - that the trade off for calling the police over people lounging around on the sidewalk (doing whatever) is that you're calling the cops on people who are probably the most likely to be abused by the police for something that's pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things. There have been some memes lately basically appealing to people not to do this.

 

Don't get me wrong... I like urban living. I've been in the inner city for fifteen years now. It's a lot whiter and richer now, that's for sure. And that's not just where I am - inner cities in general are becoming whiter, younger, and more affluent. I've seen some horrible things and some crazy things and some excellent things. And a lot of middling annoying things like people using my twenty feet or so of sidewalk as a social gathering space. My main point was really that I think a lot of the people in this thread can't conceive of what that would even be like to have people just hanging out, standing, sitting, setting up chairs on the sidewalk in front of your house. And that the sidewalk in front of your house might be just a couple of yards or less from your front windows.

No doubt the inner city is different in different places but where I've lived, I can't quite imagine setting up a sprinkler.  I mean where would you put it?  In the inner city where I was just today there is sidewalk and a small square of dirt every 8 feet or so where a tree pops up out of the ground.  That's it.  And if you get a little less "inner city" and into neighborhoods, then you have front yards setting your property off from the sidewalk so that you couldn't have chairs  a couple yards from your front windows.  In the true inner city, I can't imagine it being safe to do even some of the more passive-aggressive suggestions in this thread.  It wouldn't have been where I lived.  But then the inner city where we lived was prime gang territory and you knew it. 

 

 

[Farrar]

No doubt the inner city is different in different places but where I've lived, I can't quite imagine setting up a sprinkler.  I mean where would you put it?  In the inner city where I was just today there is sidewalk and a small square of dirt every 8 feet or so where a tree pops up out of the ground.  That's it.  And if you get a little less "inner city" and into neighborhoods, then you have front yards setting your property off from the sidewalk so that you couldn't have chairs  a couple yards from your front windows.  In the true inner city, I can't imagine it being safe to do even some of the more passive-aggressive suggestions in this thread.  It wouldn't have been where I lived.  But then the inner city where we lived was prime gang territory and you knew it. 

 

 

Our yard is just big enough to use a sprinkler on (not that we ever have). It's about the size of a small room. If we did it, the sprinkler would definitely hit the sidewalk.

 

I feel like we see our share of passive-aggressive in our 'hood. I mean, right now there's a poison war going on in our alley over rat poison and its use, complete with off the hook passive-aggressive notes posted on the poles and now some interesting spray paint. I'm pretty sure local authorities have gotten involved. It's been local blog worthy at various points and going on for a year.

 

When we moved to our neighborhood, gang activity was a concern. And while there's still some of that sort of thing (we actually had gunshots last night, but for the first time in ages, and some kids sidewalk chalk graffitted our parking space with MS-13 stuff a couple of months ago - I tried not to laugh - I mean, hardcore, right? MS-13 and sidewalk chalk... ready to take on anything, except rain) that was part of my point that a lot of inner cities have a really different landscape now than a decade or two ago.