Your thoughts on Colin Kaepernick and the National Anthem: a poll

[MercyA]

I'm curious on the Hive's response to football player Colin Kaepernick's refusal to stand during the National Anthem. He stated, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

 

Kaepernick clarified, "This stand wasn’t for me. This stand wasn’t because I feel like I’m being put down in any kind of way. This is because I’m seeing things happen to people that don’t have a voice, people that don’t have a platform to talk and have their voices heard, and effect change. So I’m in the position where I can do that and I’m going to do that for people that can’t." 

 

He's been called a traitor. One politician-who-will-not-be-named suggested he "find a country that works better for him." An NFL executive said "he hasn't seen this much collective dislike among front office members regarding a player since Rae Carruth [who is in prison for plotting to murder his pregnant girlfriend]." There is much speculation that he will be cut.

 

I find the fact that he might lose his job over this shocking and reprehensible. He's expressed his views in a peaceful way and been vilified for it. All of this because he won't stand up during a song? Seriously?

 

Please weigh in.  :)

Edited September 1, 2016 by MercyA

[MercyA]

Three "obligatory other" votes so far...should I add another option to the poll? If so, what?

[SparklyUnicorn]

"other" for me is that I really don't care or don't have an opinion

 

 

[Dmmetler]

I really wonder if people who are complaining have ever met a Jehovah's Witness? Or realize that not saluting the flag has been upheld for public school students under the right to free expression?

 

And, FWIW, I've taught a patriotic music unit to 5th grade PS students. I've had a lot of kids who are very appalled by the later verse lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner.

Edited September 1, 2016 by dmmetler

[Farrar]

There was a tweet or meme that someone I know shared that said something like, "White people: Black people should protest peacefully! Black person sits quietly during the National Anthem. White people: Not like that!" I thought that summed up a few of the issues.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I like being a nobody.  Nobody cares if I stand or not.

 

 

[marbel]

I voted other.  I think it was largely a meaningless gesture on his part.   To many people, the National  Anthem is not just a song; some people I know see what he did as similar to burning the American flag.  I don't think he should lose his job over this.  But it seems that with his influence he might find something to do that would actually help.    I mean, read his clarification quote in the OP.  What did he actually do that would help anyone?

Edited September 1, 2016 by marbel

[Farrar]

I really wonder if people who are complaining have ever met a Jehovah's Witness? Or realize that not saluting the flag has been upheld for public school students under the right to free expression?

 

My experience is that very few people understand that students have any rights to free expression whatsoever. And that many people don't understand the reasons why protests like flag burning or refusing to stand for the anthem are routinely and firmly upheld by courts. This is a totally decided issue in terms of our rights as Americans. But, yeah, I think people don't get it.

[ktgrok]

There was a tweet or meme that someone I know shared that said something like, "White people: Black people should protest peacefully! Black person sits quietly during the National Anthem. White people: Not like that!" I thought that summed up a few of the issues.

 

Yup, exactly. 

 

Freedom means people can do things you don't like. What he did was an expression of that. For crying out loud, you can run a dog fighting ring or beat your wife or do drugs and have a job in the NFL, but a peaceful protest (nothing illegal mind you) and everyone loses their ever loving mind. I'm ashamed I ever watched a football game with the way this is going down. 

[ktgrok]

Also, those same people freaking out would certainly be shocked by some of the actions of the founding fathers. Ugh. 

[MSNative]

I'm curious on the Hive's response to football player Colin Kaepernick's refusal to stand during the National Anthem. He stated, "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

 

Kaepernick clarified, "This stand wasn’t for me. This stand wasn’t because I feel like I’m being put down in any kind of way. This is because I’m seeing things happen to people that don’t have a voice, people that don’t have a platform to talk and have their voices heard, and effect change. So I’m in the position where I can do that and I’m going to do that for people that can’t."

 

He's been called a traitor. One politician-who-will-not-be-named suggested he "find a country that works better for him." An NFL executive said "he hasn't seen this much collective dislike among front office members regarding a player since Rae Carruth [who is in prison for plotting to murder his pregnant girlfriend]." There is much speculation that he will be cut.

 

I find the fact that he might lose his job over this shocking and reprehensible. He's expressed his views in a peaceful way and been vilified for it. All of this because he won't stand up during a song? Seriously?

 

Please weigh in. :)

Many others have lost their jobs for saying and supporting things. (Mozilla CEO being ousted for supporting traditional marriage leaps to mind) Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

 

The team makes money from ticket and gear sales. The team could be materially impacted by CKs actions if enough fans choose to withdraw their support from the team. So I would support the team if it chose to cut him (with his current stats his job was in doubt before this)

 

That said, I dont think he should lose his job over this. I don't think its accomplishing what his goal is and I think he could have chosen other methods to get his message out and make an impact. But given that some players are out using drugs, beating people up, and worse, sitting down for the anthem seems mild.

[ktgrok]

I voted other.  I think it was largely a meaningless gesture on his part.   To many people, the National  Anthem is not just a song; some people I know see what he did as similar to burning the American flag.  I don't think he should lose his job over this.  But it seems that with his influence he might find something to do that would actually help.    I mean, read his clarification quote in the OP.  What did he actually do that would help anyone?

 

Well, he brought attention to an issue he cared about. So there's that. The flip side is, what did he do that hurt anyone? Nothing. Unlike plenty of NFL players with arrest records for assault, rape, etc. And yet the establishment lets them play and people are like whatever. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My experience is that very few people understand that students have any rights to free expression whatsoever. And that many people don't understand the reasons why protests like flag burning or refusing to stand for the anthem are routinely and firmly upheld by courts. This is a totally decided issue in terms of our rights as Americans. But, yeah, I think people don't get it.

 

Yeah I find it quite odd that some people talk about freedom of expression (etc) and then freak out about this stuff.  So what is it. One is free EXCEPT if they don't want to sing a song?  That makes no sense to me.

[MercyA]

I really wonder if people who are complaining have ever met a Jehovah's Witness? Or realize that not saluting the flag has been upheld for public school students under the right to free expression?

 

Or people of other religious persuasions (like me) who also don't salute the flag or say the Pledge?  

 

And, FWIW, I've taught a patriotic music unit to 5th grade PS students. I've had a lot of kids who are very appalled by the later verse lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner.

 

Understandably:

 

No refuge could save the hireling and slave

From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Edited September 1, 2016 by MercyA

[zoobie]

There was a tweet or meme that someone I know shared that said something like, "White people: Black people should protest peacefully! Black person sits quietly during the National Anthem. White people: Not like that!" I thought that summed up a few of the issues.

This.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Yup, exactly.

 

Freedom means people can do things you don't like. What he did was an expression of that. For crying out loud, you can run a dog fighting ring or beat your wife or do drugs and have a job in the NFL, but a peaceful protest (nothing illegal mind you) and everyone loses their ever loving mind. I'm ashamed I ever watched a football game with the way this is going down.

 

Yes.

[Guest2]

He has the right to do this. I don't agree or support and frankly think the rationale is ridiculous ,but I will defend his free speech.

 

I also think people who disagree with him have the right to express their view. This is America.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Silver Brook

[Guest2]

Dp

Edited September 1, 2016 by Silver Brook

[Epicurean]

I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance because it goes against my principles. So I guess it's not surprising that I'm supportive of every person's right to stand/sit or pledge/not pledge for whatever reason. That's what's great about our society, right?

 

I don't agree with his reasons, and in general I think it's a bit hypocritical for any multimillionaire to "protest" oppression when they are so far removed from the rest of society, but he has every right to express himself.

 

I do think it's noxious how there are about a million angry Facebook posts about this action but no one bats an eye when so many NFL players commit rape, domestic violence, assault, etc. Evidently those things weren't enough to cause outrage among hardcore NFL fans, but this is? I don't get it.

[gstharr]

Brave man.

[Farrar]

I don't agree with his reasons, and in general I think it's a bit hypocritical for any multimillionaire to "protest" oppression when they are so far removed from the rest of society, but he has every right to express himself.

 

This rationale for disagreeing with his actions (I know you said you support his right despite your feelings) bugs me. I think those of us who have power and privilege and a position of power and influence - which he does - have what might be a greater obligation to stand up for others, not less. Not only that, but racism is something that effects how people experience the world even at the top echelons of power, not just at the bottom - just often in different ways.

[SproutMamaK]

I agree with his right to protest or not. I'm unsure how I feel about the issue itself (there's a problem, by to what degree is that the fault of the country?)... which is why I think his small, silent protest is a valuable thing. It's got people talking about an issue that needs to be addressed.

[DesertBlossom]

I don't think he *should* be cut from the team. But I would respect the right of the NFL to decide he should be. But it sounds like the NFL keeps players who do much more appalling things, so why would they care?

 

I don't agree with him at all. Yes, we have some skeletons in our country's closet. But I would like to see a country or people that doesn't. I think we've done a lot to right the wrongs of the past. We still have more to do.

[AmandaVT]

I agree with his right to protest. Not how I'd choose to do it, but that's his right. 

 

If anyone is a twitter person, there has been a pretty big #veteransforkaepernick trend over the past couple of days

 

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23VeteransForKaepernick&src=tyah

 

 

[Truscifi]

I don't know who he is, nor do I care anything about football, but I see nothing wrong with his form of protest. 

 

Also I think it would be silly of the team to fire him over this when players who have committed actual crimes with actual victims get little to no penalty. That would indicate vastly maladjusted priorities.

[HomeAgain]

I didn't read previous responses.

 

Here is my take on it, as a veteran:  I don't care.  There.  He doesn't respect the flag/what it stands for.  Okay.  You can't *force* respect.  You can't shame someone into it.  The most you can do is create an atmosphere that people can respect and be proud of.  I also don't care that Gabby Douglas didn't put her hand over her heart.  I don't care if people say the Pledge (goodness knows I don't do it myself).  I care about where our country is headed and what we can do to make it a better place. 

 

 

That said, we teach our kids from babyhood to stand and be still at 5pm, stopping their  play to give respect to the anthem, they must take off their hats when the flag comes by in the parade, and we go to events that honor the fallen (including cemetery cleanings).  They're *our* kids, and this is *their* community, and they will give lip service until they're old enough to make a stance based on their convictions.  At that point I'll honor how they feel.  Until then, I'll teach them to fall in line.

[LucyStoner]

The other for me isn't an obligatory other.  That answer fits me best of the available options.  I suppose the next closest is "is rightly taking a stand against injustice and has my support" but that didn't fit me because before this I didn't know who he is and don't know enough about his motivations to claim to support him.  I'm not a football fan so this would be my first exposure to who he is.  

 

 

 

 

[justasque]

I voted other.  I think it was largely a meaningless gesture on his part.   To many people, the National  Anthem is not just a song; some people I know see what he did as similar to burning the American flag.  I don't think he should lose his job over this.  But it seems that with his influence he might find something to do that would actually help.    I mean, read his clarification quote in the OP.  What did he actually do that would help anyone?

 

I don't think it was meaningless.  Here we are talking about it.  I think it has made a lot of people think about several things - the issues he says he's standing up for (or, in this case, sitting down for), and also why many people don't sing/pledge, and how we feel about that.  There is a significant religious minority in my area who don't pledge, so I've grown up understanding it's not a universal thing to do these patriotic rituals.; there are all kinds of good reasons people don't participate. 

 

I found the twitter hashtag #VeteransForKaepernick to be both informative and moving - lots of veterans posting pics of themselves in uniform and speaking up for Kaepernick's actions.  It's worth a look.  This article samples some of them.

[Valley Girl]

Many others have lost their jobs for saying and supporting things. (Mozilla CEO being ousted for supporting traditional marriage leaps to mind) Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

 

 

 

That is a point people here frequently make when discussing other controversial issues and opinions with which they disagree. Freedom of speech does not protect one from social or economic consequences.

[marbel]

Well, he brought attention to an issue he cared about. So there's that. The flip side is, what did he do that hurt anyone? Nothing. Unlike plenty of NFL players with arrest records for assault, rape, etc. And yet the establishment lets them play and people are like whatever. 

 

An issue that has a lot of attention before he staged his protest.   He has resources and a voice; people will listen to him. He's a role model for many.  I just think there are probably better things someone like him could do.   And I said I didn't think he should lose his job.  I'm not particularly offended by it and I'm also not a fan of NFL players in

general.    

 

BTW - deport him?  Does the person who said that know he was born in the USA?  (cue Bruce)

[Roadrunner]

As somebody who grew up in a communist country, I see these mandatory patriotic displays as unfitting. It reminds me of my childhood and makes me sick. Stand if you want, sit if you want, and please stop making my 5 year old parrot it every morning in school.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Roadrunner

[Truscifi]

That is a point people here frequently make when discussing other controversial issues and opinions with which they disagree. Freedom of speech does not protect one from social or economic consequences.

 

I agree, and the NFL has the right to discipline him as specified in his contract. But I would think less of them if they do so, given what they have turned a blind eye to from other players.

[Scarlett]

I am a little amused it is such a big deal.  I think some people aren't educated about the law in this country.

[Junie]

I haven't decided whether I agree with his form of protest.  I believe that he legally has the right to protest.

 

However, as a sports fan (albeit on the opposite coast, so not a Niners fan), I know that there was talk last year of canning him based on his (lack of) performance.  So, even if he does lose his job, be aware that it may not be about the protest at all.

[SparklyUnicorn]

As somebody who grew up in a communist country, I see these mandatory patriotic displays as unfitting. It reminds me of my childhood and makes me sick. Stand if you want, sit if you want, and lease stop making me 5 year old parrot it every morning in school.

 

And yet for some reason a lot of people don't see the similarity.  It's different.  But in what way?  It's really not.

[SparklyUnicorn]

And he's a sports figure.  He works for a private company.  He isn't a senator or the president. 

[JoJosMom]

Or people of other religious persuasions (like me) who also don't salute the flag or say the Pledge?  

 

 

 

Understandably:

 

No refuge could save the hireling and slave

From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,

O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

Here's a website for children that might help with comprehension. Scroll down to the part that says "Meaning of Star Spangled Banner Lyrics Verse 3."

 

[MercyA]

 BTW - deport him?  Does the person who said that know he was born in the USA?  (cue Bruce)

 

 

Oops. Yes, I know he is a U.S. citizen. Will change it to "exiled."

[marbel]

Oops. Yes, I know he is a U.S. citizen. Will change it to "exiled."

 

Whoops, I thought a politician used the word "deported."   :-)

[zoobie]

 

BTW - deport him?  Does the person who said that know he was born in the USA?  (cue Bruce)

 

He's brown. Therefore not a real American. Duh. **eyeroll**

[Roadrunner]

And yet for some reason a lot of people don't see the similarity. It's different. But in what way? It's really not.

I don't know.

We think that we have a choice to participate or not in this, but Gabby Duglas affair and now this really does point to the fact that you must participate in patriotic displays even if technically the state doesn't require you, or face not so insignificant consequences, which is where I feel my feeling of revulsion comes in. My mother almost swallowed her tongue when the first time she saw my Kindergartener parrot the pledge with his hand on his heard. She said she thought that only happened in the USSR. Maybe I just have a different perspective.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know.

We think that we have a choice to participate or not in this, but Gabby Duglas affair and now this really does point to the fact that you must participate in patriotic displays even if technically the state doesn't require you, or face not so insignificant consequences, which is where I feel my feeling of revulsion comes in. My mother almost swallowed her tongue when the first time she saw my Kindergartener parrot the pledge with his hand on his heard. She said she thought that only happened in the USSR. Maybe I just have a different perspective.

 

Yeah a K'er doesn't know what it means.  They make them do it long before they have any clue.  And goodness forbid anyone questions it. 

[ktgrok]

That is a point people here frequently make when discussing other controversial issues and opinions with which they disagree. Freedom of speech does not protect one from social or economic consequences.

 

Agreed. And if the NFL was in the routine of firing people who did things that went against the beliefs of the majority, I'd agree they would be within their rights to fire him. But to do so, when players are NOT fired for rape, assault, etc...well no. To imply that his peaceful protest is worse than criminal behavior is what people are so upset by. 

[MercyA]

Oops. Yes, I know he is a U.S. citizen. Will change it to "exiled."

 

Whoops, I thought a politician used the word "deported."   :-)

 

 

I can't edit the wording used in the poll for whatever reason. Ah, well.

 

I've seen news articles stating that a certain politician wants Kaepernick deported, but the politician himself did not use that word. 

[ktgrok]

My mother almost swallowed her tongue when the first time she saw my Kindergartener parrot the pledge with his hand on his heard. She said she thought that only happened in the USSR. Maybe I just have a different perspective.

 

I've thought it was creepily reminiscent of communism ever since I knew what communism was. Your mother is not alone. Knowing the pledge and being able to recite it at certain occasions, fine. I'm teaching it to my daughter as cultural literacy. To require it daily is just weird. I mean, do they think it likely the children became traitors overnight?

[ktgrok]

Also, is there anything IN his contract that says he must stand for the pledge? Did he violate a rule, or do they just not like it?

[MercyA]

Also, is there anything IN his contract that says he must stand for the pledge? Did he violate a rule, or do they just not like it?

 

Niners coach Chip Kelly told reporters Saturday that Kaepernick's decision not to stand during the national anthem is "his right as a citizen" and said "it's not my right to tell him not to do something."

 

The NFL also released a statement, obtained by NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport: "Players are encouraged but not required to stand during the playing of the national anthem."

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem

[Tap]

He has the right to his own view points and the right to protest in a civil way.

 

The company he works for, has the right to decide if he is acting in the best interest of the company/team. If they feel that he will cause them to lose profits, they can decide to terminate his contract.  Either by buying him out, or finding a contract violation and enforcing the consequences laid out in the contract.  

 

If this is allowed in the contract, then he should not be punished for it, just due to public sentiment.

 

Both parties have the rights allowed to them by law, and within the contracts they signed.  If he is using his status on the field, while at work, to promote a personal view point, the company can decide if they want him remain in their employ or not.  He has easy access to counsel, and I hope he got their advice on what his contract allows before doing this. 

 

For the team, it is all about profits and image.

 

For him, it is using his public image and celebrity to further his cause.  The big problem I see, is that he was at work when he decided to make this stand. Free country and speech...absolutely. But he also signed a contract that likely covers using company time, to promote personal agendas. If the team is ok with it, then I say let it go.

 

If you are breaking a rule or law during a protest, you still have to pay the consequences. 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Tap

[gardenmom5]

I voted other.  I think he's an attention seeking idiot. he's mixed race and has white adoptive parents.   and makes tens of millions of dollars a year.  he's privileged. his "stance" isn't doing anything to benefit anyone, but generating bad PR for himself and his team.  (which = $$ losses for owners and NFL)  I would be interested if those who think he's doing something great  exercising his first amendment rights/etc.  think the same thing about tim tebow praying at games.  (another over rated player).  ck's not that great of a player. if he gets cut for being "not a great player" how fast do you think he'll turn around and claim he was cut because of his stance?  (much like tebow fans yelled he was cut because of his beliefs.)

[Farrar]

If the NFL fired him, would they be within their rights? Can you fire someone for refusing to stand for the anthem? It's been upheld as a right in so many contexts. And it's usually for religious reasons. I generally think private companies can fire you for freedom of speech as it pertains to your job (your right to, say, attend a protest on your own time has been upheld - we often see media personalities fired but it's for things they said while being media personalities - it effects their jobs very directly) but I'm a little unsure about this freedom of speech in particular.