skimomma Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Please do not quote OP. I will delete later for privacy. Thanks for the discussion everyone! Edited August 24, 2016 by skimomma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatherwith4 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 No I wouldn't complain. Unfortunately, I know a lot of people who would. :( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 1. I don't know what there is to complain about.. It would be a non-issue for me. 2. I'm not sure why your MIL feels she has a say in this. 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) I don't think I would complain in that scenario, and my view on transgerder issues isn't always in line with mainstream views. I think that it would have been much more tricky if a person in that situation wanted to remain a councelor who was staying in a cabin with kids as the same gender supervisor. In that case I think you might have problems with kids who were uncomfortable because they remember that person as an opposite sex individual, and some kids and parents that would be uncomfortable about the same thing more as a matter of principle, even if they had no former personal association. ETA - I am not sure about your MIL - I don't have enough sense of why she thought you should complain - was it something to do with the role of the staff member, or she thought the camp should give people a heads up, in case it was a problem? Edited August 23, 2016 by Bluegoat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I can't imagine complaining about this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimomma Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) 2. I'm not sure why your MIL feels she has a say in this. Well, she doesn't since we see no need to take action. Her specific concern is that she feels the camp put a group of young girls in the same cabin and under the supervision of "a man." ETA - In case it is not clear, I do not agree with MIL's view on this. Edited August 23, 2016 by skimomma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I fail to see what there is to complain about. What would be expected? Fire him because he transitioned? Why? It of course would not be appropriate for him to continue to be a cabin supervisor for girls assuming that position is same-gender only, which I expect it probably is. And it sounds like they didn't just switch him over to supervising boys in the same position, probably for reasons of avoiding complaints. Logically, if he's still working for the camp in a few years, once the turnover of kids means that the ones who remember him as a woman are gone, he could probably be a counselor for the boys without incident. Being transgender does not make a person unsafe to be around kids. Suggesting otherwise hearkens back to some very unsavory stereotypes of GLBTQ people as "perverts" and equating us with pedophiles, etc. 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City Mouse Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Since the person was given a different job which no longer requires him to sleep in a cabin with campers (male or female) Idont see any problem. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 My kids attended a day camp this year at the UU church with a Harry Potter theme. On the last day, I was approached by one of the older teen counsellors who wanted to tell me what a cool kid my 10yo was. When I mentioned this to DS, I called the counselor a "she," because while fairly ambiguous, there were several clues that said "she" to me. DS corrected me that this was a "he" and told me his very "boy" name and that someone had even asked and he said he was a boy. Looking at the pictures of the camp from last year, this person went by a different name and was much more obviously female last year. I pointed this out to my kids, not as a way to say "see, that's really a girl," but because I figured it would be a good first talking point to discuss transgendered persons through the lens of someone they'd gotten to know and appreciate. Honestly, I don't quite "get" the transgender thing, but I think that's more because I've always felt in the midst of some existential crisis and like I didn't belong anywhere, so what's the difference. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me what other people want to call themselves and I'm not sure what there'd be to complain about to the camp if it's not a religiously-based activity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Well, she doesn't since we see no need to take action. Her specific concern is that she feels the camp put a group of young girls in the same cabin and under the supervision of "a man." ETA - In case it is not clear, I do not agree with MIL's view on this. Well, they did. But at the time he hadn't transitioned, so he was still socially and legally a woman. When he transitioned, they changed his job. That's like saying you should complain that Kristin Beck got to keep her medals because at the time she was a Navy SEAL, women weren't allowed to be SEALS. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 This is so sad. It hits home too much for me to formulate another response. Just sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) Well, she doesn't since we see no need to take action. Her specific concern is that she feels the camp put a group of young girls in the same cabin and under the supervision of "a man." ETA - In case it is not clear, I do not agree with MIL's view on this. I thought that the former counselor was working in another capacity at the camp this year, not as a counselor. I guess I can see how a person could be uncomfortable with the thought that last year the counselor was in the rather intimate setting of a girls' cabin and while openly presenting as a female may have privately identified as male, and thus should not have been in that setting with girls. Pure speculation on my part of course. But don't see a basis for complaint. Edited August 23, 2016 by marbel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I would not complain. But I would not be surprised if some other parents do complain. I am not sure what the camp should do about it. If she was a woman last year in a girl cabin, what is there to say about that? Was the camp supposed to know she was transgender? How would they know that? Would parents expect counselors to be asked such a question? Now it's more tricky if he wanted to be in a boy cabin this year. But he wasn't in one. Not sure whether that was the camp's decision or his. If he was not sharing a cabin with the boys, then I don't see how the camp could discriminate against him. I could see them declining to let him sleep in any of the cabins. Just not worth the controversy. Fact is, you never know who is going to mess with boys or girls in a cabin, regardless of gender. But if there is a rule about gender in a cabin, then expect parents to have an issue with a person known to be the opposite gender, either physically or otherwise. My kids have had a theater camp counselor who is in a same-sex marriage, and she told the kids and shared photos etc. I'm not sure why she thought that was something to share with the girls, but my reaction with my girls was, "OK," which is what I say about anything that isn't my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 My kids attended a day camp this year at the UU church with a Harry Potter theme. On the last day, I was approached by one of the older teen counsellors who wanted to tell me what a cool kid my 10yo was. When I mentioned this to DS, I called the counselor a "she," because while fairly ambiguous, there were several clues that said "she" to me. DS corrected me that this was a "he" and told me his very "boy" name and that someone had even asked and he said he was a boy. Looking at the pictures of the camp from last year, this person went by a different name and was much more obviously female last year. I pointed this out to my kids, not as a way to say "see, that's really a girl," but because I figured it would be a good first talking point to discuss transgendered persons through the lens of someone they'd gotten to know and appreciate. Honestly, I don't quite "get" the transgender thing, but I think that's more because I've always felt in the midst of some existential crisis and like I didn't belong anywhere, so what's the difference. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me what other people want to call themselves and I'm not sure what there'd be to complain about to the camp if it's not a religiously-based activity. Way to find the teaching moment, Kathryn! Though it sounds like your kids are maybe a step ahead of you. :001_smile: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimomma Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 Well, they did. But at the time he hadn't transitioned, so he was still socially and legally a woman. When he transitioned, they changed his job. That's like saying you should complain that Kristin Beck got to keep her medals because at the time she was a Navy SEAL, women weren't allowed to be SEALS. I'm totally with you here. And from the small number of replies thus far, it seems that MIL's view might not be as common as I feared. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zimom Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) I'm really confused... your MIL wants to complain because this person was a counselor last year BEFORE he transitioned? It sounds like the camp did a wonderful job. Realistically there are many that would have a problem with him being an in cabin counselor this year since he just transitioned . Hopefully everyone (the camp, the counselor) all came to an agreement that it would be best that for the next few years that he not serve as an in cabin counselor, but rather hopefully he was able to work with the kids around the camp. In a few years, likely he will be able to go back to being an in-cabin counselor without much resistance. And as Ravin stated, GLBTQ does not equate pediphile whatsoever. Edited August 23, 2016 by zimom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) I thought that the former counselor was working in another capacity at the camp this year, not as a counselor. I guess I can see how a person could be uncomfortable with the thought that last year the counselor was in the rather intimate setting of a girls' cabin and while openly presenting as a female may have privately identified as male, and thus should not have been in that setting with girls. Pure speculation on my part of course. But don't see a basis for complaint. Agreed. As long as they kept it in line with the policies of counselors of the same sex/gender/however they worded it supervising groups of kids and changed her duties when she transitioned I wouldn't be bothered. If she wanted to keep overseeing the girls after switching to a male identity I'd have issues with an inconsistent policy application, but it doesn't sound like that's what happened here if I'm understanding the OP correctly. I wouldn't complain, whatever my private opinion on the subject might be there appears to be nothing inappropriate in this at all. He hasn't done anything wrong by transitioning and maintaining the same place of employment, with duties adjusted accordingly. Edited August 23, 2016 by Arctic Mama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Complain? No. Why would I want to make someone's life more difficult when they were not doing anything wrong? I live in an area where I have no doubt at least one person would complain, I'm not sure what for, but only because they have wrong perceptions of what it means to be transgender. My reaction once I thought about it would be to let the camp know that I appreciated them sticking by this individual during what has to be a challenging time. I'm not sure I see a "situation" at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimomma Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 I'm really confused... your MIL wants to complain because this person was a counselor last year BEFORE he transitioned? Just to be very clear, I did not start this topic to ask what I should do. I had already decided that as stated in the OP. MIL has no say in this at all. The only reason I brought her up is that we were surprised by her reaction and wondered if that reaction would be shared by other parents. If indeed the camp and/or counselor would get any heat from parents. I too am confused by her reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 There are a handful of people in my kids' lives who I suspect are transgender - including some who may not yet realize this themselves. I just watch from the sidelines to see how things develop. My comment to my kids about differences is that God doesn't make mistakes. I expect all human beings to behave themselves with kids. I have no tolerance for anyone who crosses that line. Period. Gender or sexual preference has nothing to do with it IMO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I wouldn't complain. It sounds to me as if the camp handled the situation appropriately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 It sounds like your DD is a pretty cool kid. Good for her. I can't imagine what your MIL would complain about, counselor isn't supervising girls in a cabin this year, right? And even if he was supervising boys, I wouldn't complain - I wouldn't have an issue with it. I might, though, mention to the camp that I'm happy that they've accepted counselor, and congratulate them on helping kids to be accepting and teaching by example. So, nope - I wouldn't complain, I'd go the opposite route and give the camp some kudos. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I don't "get" being transgender, but I do try to be understanding about it as far as I am able. But honestly, in this situation, I don't see what there is to complain about. (???) Color me puzzled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 The counselor would have had at least 40 campers under her care the year before. Statistically, some of those 40 campers' parents are likely to have a big issue with this. Too bad for them. Thoughts? Would you complain? About what? "I don't like that person's gender"? So what. It's not up to you (general you). The counselor's gender is irrelevant because it's not a religious camp and transgender people, contrary to the beliefs of the misinformed, are not people in drag who are attempting to prey on others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Wait. So your MIL wants to complain about the counselor having campers in a cabin a year ago? Before the transition? This isn't a complaint about the current year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) So long as the person is not sharing a bedroom with the kids, it probably won't even come up, unless people knew the person from before. Edited August 23, 2016 by TranquilMind 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 It sounds like your DD is a pretty cool kid. Good for her. I can't imagine what your MIL would complain about, counselor isn't supervising girls in a cabin this year, right? And even if he was supervising boys, I wouldn't complain - I wouldn't have an issue with it. I might, though, mention to the camp that I'm happy that they've accepted counselor, and congratulate them on helping kids to be accepting and teaching by example. So, nope - I wouldn't complain, I'd go the opposite route and give the camp some kudos. This. 100% this. They will probably recieve complaints and an encouraging word can go a long way. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 My first thought is that a young teen who may identify as trans would have a great role model in this young man-a sign that they can have a great, full, normal life. Kudos to the camp! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Nonissue. Honestly that the camp saw this person as someone with a great set of skills for the camp and gave him a contract for this summer is great. Really that should not be a big deal, but some employers would find it hard and a place like a summer camp is just short term contracts so it would be difficult to prove discrimination. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimomma Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 I might, though, mention to the camp that I'm happy that they've accepted counselor, and congratulate them on helping kids to be accepting and teaching by example. We are considering doing this. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I don't see an issue based on what you are describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I do not see anything to complain about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) None of MIL's business. Obviously the camp already knows this person is transgender. That does not make them any less able to be a worthy adult role model at the camp. Since the camp has the person in a non-counselor position, they have done all they need to do to address potential parental concerns (perhaps it was the trans person's request to avoid any conflicts?) There have always been transgender folks among us. They just do not have to hide anymore. Tell MIL if she is uncomfortable around a transgender person, well, then she probably isn't trans herself. Another person's sexuality has NOTHING to do with her. I like the idea of sending a note to the camp noting how happy your child was to see Counselor "Pat"* again, as they were such a good counselor last year, etc. * to see if anyone gets the SNL reference. Edited August 23, 2016 by JFSinIL 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daria Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I agree about reaching out to the camp and thanking them for handling this situation well, and for ensuring that your daughter and others can continue to benefit from this young man's talents. Obviously, I think there's nothing to complain about, but unless it happens that the camp is based on specific values, it seems likely that there will be complaints. I think making it clear that any parents who are uncomfortable are balanced out (and hopefully outnumbered by) parents who would have been uncomfortable if they'd decided to let the counselor go, can help reinforce their decision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I would not complain. My mother would have freaked out and boycotted the camp. She's boycotting Target. Even though she never shopped at Target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 On thanking the camp for how they handle the employment on the counselor, I did something similar for a camp's handling of a completely different issue--mental illness. A long time counselor of dds camp had a breakdown, after mental health clinic did not render treatment. The young man was sent home and he attacked his father . He killed himself after father ran to seek help. It was November. The story made national news. In part because the father is a politician and in part because the state has been in the news for not following up on mental health treatment resulting in big tragedy before. When I first saw the story I wondered how the camp was going to handle it. They could easily have sent a statement that distanced themselves from the young man. They didnt. They quickly put out a moving obituary of an intellectually brilliant, musically talented young man who had a 14 year relationship with camp, starting when he was a camper. They recognized that he was always named favorite counselor. They then set up a memorial service and invited camp community and friends. Later they raised money and built a pavilion dedicated to the young man. They had the dedication during a session my dd attended. His family came. They really modeled treating mental illness in a humanizing way. So, in that case I wrote and thanked the director for being such a role model. Sorry for my long story. If you think your dd's camp is providing a model of behavior that teaches exceptional lessons to your child, do write them and let them know. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trulycrabby Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I would not think twice about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing to complain about. I really can't imagine complaining and making his life harder. He's going to face enough hurdles without that. I think if I did have an issue for whatever reason, I would simply take my child out and find another camp that aligns better with my beliefs. I don't like to cause problems for people that aren't doing anything wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I could see you or grandma commenting and/or complaining backfiring on your dd. If you want your dd to go back, I think there's a good chance any comment that is not positive will result in not having space for the camper next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skimomma Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 I could see you or grandma commenting and/or complaining backfiring on your dd. If you want your dd to go back, I think there's a good chance any comment that is not positive will result in not having space for the camper next year. Again. To be very very clear, as I stated in the OP, I have zero problem with any part of this and would not complain....since I have no problem with it. At all. I posted about this only because I was a bit blindsided by MIL's strong concern and then became concerned that this could become a "thing" that hurts a camp that dd loves and very much plans to attend for years to come. I posted the OP to kind of feel out how the general population of parents might react to this to see if this indeed could be an issue for the camp and/or counselor. I am very happy to read that people (at least here anyway) would not go all witch-hunt on the camp. That lessens my concern. After having listened to far too many hate-filled news stories about people who just want trans people to disappear (or at least not use bathrooms), I think it was a valid concern....especially after my normally open-minded MIL seemed to have such a big issue with it. If I do contact the camp about this in any way, it would only be to express my support. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Add me to the list of folks who don't understand....what in heaven's name does your MIL think you should complain about? :confused1: It seems to me that the camp handled the transition well, and it's a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound like you had a problem with the counselor. None of your posts have suggested you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Your MIL needs to get a grip. If you think others might complain, you might want to call in specifically to, well, not complain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Is there a MIL complaint department? That would be the only irritation I would report! It is a non issue otherwise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 (edited) I would not complain. My mother would have freaked out and boycotted the camp. She's boycotting Target. Even though she never shopped at Target. Sis?? Is that you?? My mother is boycotting a store she would have to drive 3 hours to see. Whatevs, Mom. Edited August 24, 2016 by Moxie 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 If I thought others were complaining I would call the camp to congratulate and thank them for being open minded and helping my DC see that we all come in many different variations and being able to fix our outside to match our inside is a positive and more than acceptable thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 (edited) Just to be very clear, I did not start this topic to ask what I should do. I had already decided that as stated in the OP. MIL has no say in this at all. The only reason I brought her up is that we were surprised by her reaction and wondered if that reaction would be shared by other parents. If indeed the camp and/or counselor would get any heat from parents. I too am confused by her reaction. I think that people in older generations have more issues about this sort of thing, at least as I've observed it. ETA: You could ask your MIL for clarification since she is the only one who can really clarify it. I would tend to let it be a non-issue and not call the camp about it at all, neither in complaint nor congratulation. Unless you actually hear there is heat from parents, in which case you might want to say something supportive. But I'd not assume there would be any heat. Edited August 24, 2016 by Pen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 It sounds like your DD is a pretty cool kid. Good for her. I can't imagine what your MIL would complain about, counselor isn't supervising girls in a cabin this year, right? And even if he was supervising boys, I wouldn't complain - I wouldn't have an issue with it. I might, though, mention to the camp that I'm happy that they've accepted counselor, and congratulate them on helping kids to be accepting and teaching by example. So, nope - I wouldn't complain, I'd go the opposite route and give the camp some kudos. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Another no on complaining. I wouldn't expect camp to have a time machine. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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