S/O plane meltdown - animals in cabin?

[QueenCat]

Great article.  I fear the arrival of fake emotional support dogs in Britain.  Because contrary to rumour, dogs are not allowed everywhere in Britain.  But when the US sneezes, the UK catches cold.  I think our legislation is currently quite tight and only recognises specific disability assistance animals.

 

We already have that problem in the US, with fake emotional support dogs. It's quite easy to get fake stickers and such for your bag/luggage that say emotional support but that doesn't mean they are actually ones that have received the real training. Many people just want to be able to bring their pets with them because they view them like they are their children. I have no problem with someone with a true mental or physical problem having a trained animal with them to help them.

[TranquilMind]

I am curious how, as a landlord, you have discovered that these ESAs are not legitimate. I ask this, as a person with a mental health disability, in all sincerity. I mean, if my landlord looked at my family, I am sure that they would be hard-pressed to see anything legitimate about my ESA. I have a beautiful, happy family, my kids are well cared for, we pay our rent on time, we drive nice cars and wear nice clothes, and are social with our neighbors. If the rental application asked for education, my landlord would have seen that I have a law degree from a top university. I mean, what could possibly be so awful about my life that I would require an ESA? Clearly, it's obvious that I am just another one of those illegitimate fraudsters trying to pull one over on the system, right?

 

What my landlord wouldn't know is that I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder a decade ago (after being misdiagnosed for the previous decade), that I have been hospitalized for this condition on several occasions, that I have attempted suicide, that I required anti-psychotics after both of my pregnancies because I thought about harming myself and others, that I will have to take a large cocktail of psychiatric medications for the rest of my life (and sometimes, those don't even work to keep this condition at bay), that mandatory reporters have been so worried about my mental health, on some occasions, that I've had CPS show up at my door, that I had to leave my career as a litigator in 2007 and was approved for Social Security disability on my first application while in my 30s.

 

By all outward appearances, my life is great. And, it is pretty great *much of the time.* I am fortunate to have access to, and the means to afford, high quality healthcare and a large support system to get me through life. But, even with all of that, I still have a chronic, disabling condition that affects my ability to work, and which many will still stigmatize because it is mostly invisible to them. 

See the following response by Queen, who said it well.

If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't, and you are excluded. 

[SeaConquest]

See the following response by Queen, who said it well.

If it doesn't apply to you, it doesn't, and you are excluded.

 

She didn't explain it at all. She just said that there is this big problem with fake ESAs. My question to you both is: what specific evidence do you have that these ESAs are not legitimate? Are you privy to their medical records, have they told you directly that they are lying to their doctors, or do they just 'seem' fine to you?

Edited August 22, 2016 by SeaConquest

[Spryte]

In the other thread some people mentioned dogs and cats traveling in airplane cabins. Are there any airlines that don't do that? We're having an intercontinental plane flight coming up in a few months, and I'm not looking forward to barking/meowing for 6+ hours.

Going back to the OP, I think you have some good advice on how to hopefully minimize the chances of sharing a cabin with animals.

 

I wanted to thank you for posting this. I'm saving the ideas, for future flights.

 

FWIW, my son has LTFAs, airborne-induced - those are our main concerns when flying. But he has twice been hospitalized for exposure to cats, and another time we thought we were heading into anaphylaxis again (house hunting - walked in and within moments the reaction started), but we headed it off. Cat allergy can indeed be severe.

 

Sort of a spin off, not directed at OP, but because this is a topic that has severely affected my family's life and ability to travel... Here's the thing though, for me: I don't decide who can fly, what or who they can bring or eat. We go through life making choices based on DS's safety and we never, never expect that there will be accommodations for his needs but we are grateful when there are. So we arrive to flights that we've vetted as best we can for safety and willingness to accommodate. We arrive early to preboard and physically clean DS's seat, he uses a specially made seat protector, and we cross our fingers that the attendants will care enough not to serve his allergens that go airborne, and they will ask passengers to be kind enough, as a favor, to refrain from eating those allergens. That's at the attendants' discretion, and we never know till we arrive for the flight and meet them. There are no airlines that will guarantee this ahead of time, it's something we find out just before boarding. We ask that DS be seated away from any flying animals. And - most importantly - we are ALWAYS prepared to use our judgment and not fly if it seems unsafe or that the airline can't help us on that day. Even doing all that, DS had anaphylaxis on his last flight. He ended up ok, but we haven't flown again.

 

I don't own an airline. I don't make the rules, and they are not public entities. We can use their services or not. When we choose to do so, their accommodations to us are a favor. So I think my feeling here is along the lines of - animals are fine on flights, as long as it's ok with the airline. The airline is making the choice most beneficial to them, not the relatively small number of people with severe allergies. It would be nice if they'd offer a pet free flight daily, and doubly so if it could be allergen free, but then - everyone's allergies are different so what on earth would that look like?! It's not feasible.

[SeaConquest]

Going back to the OP, I think you have some good advice on how to hopefully minimize the chances of sharing a cabin with animals.

 

I wanted to thank you for posting this. I'm saving the ideas, for future flights.

 

FWIW, my son has LTFAs, airborne-induced - those are our main concerns when flying. But he has twice been hospitalized for exposure to cats, and another time we thought we were heading into anaphylaxis again (house hunting - walked in and within moments the reaction started), but we headed it off. Cat allergy can indeed be severe.

 

Sort of a spin off, not directed at OP, but because this is a topic that has severely affected my family's life and ability to travel... Here's the thing though, for me: I don't decide who can fly, what or who they can bring or eat. We go through life making choices based on DS's safety and we never, never expect that there will be accommodations for his needs but we are grateful when there are. So we arrive to flights that we've vetted as best we can for safety and willingness to accommodate. We arrive early to preboard and physically clean DS's seat, he uses a specially made seat protector, and we cross our fingers that the attendants will care enough not to serve his allergens that go airborne, and they will ask passengers to be kind enough, as a favor, to refrain from eating those allergens. That's at the attendants' discretion, and we never know till we arrive for the flight and meet them. There are no airlines that will guarantee this ahead of time, it's something we find out just before boarding. We ask that DS be seated away from any flying animals. And - most importantly - we are ALWAYS prepared to use our judgment and not fly if it seems unsafe or that the airline can't help us on that day. Even doing all that, DS had anaphylaxis on his last flight. He ended up ok, but we haven't flown again.

 

I don't own an airline. I don't make the rules, and they are not public entities. We can use their services or not. When we choose to do so, their accommodations to us are a favor. So I think my feeling here is along the lines of - animals are fine on flights, as long as it's ok with the airline. The airline is making the choice most beneficial to them, not the relatively small number of people with severe allergies. It would be nice if they'd offer a pet free flight daily, and doubly so if it could be allergen free, but then - everyone's allergies are different so what on earth would that look like?! It's not feasible.

Hugs to you and your DS, Spryte. I had the same reaction to a cat while house hunting once. It was frightening. :(

[mommytobees]

... looked at my family, I am sure that they would be hard-pressed to see anything legitimate about my ESA. I have a beautiful, happy family, my kids are well cared for, we pay our rent on time, we drive nice cars and wear nice clothes, and are social with our neighbors. If the rental application asked for education, my landlord would have seen that I have a law degree from a top university. I mean, what could possibly be so awful about my life that I would require an ESA? Clearly, it's obvious that I am just another one of those illegitimate fraudsters trying to pull one over on the system, right?

 

 

I wanted to address this directly, specifically after you quoted (a few days ago) one of my posts.

 

When I consider "fraudsters", I'm not looking at the HUMAN. I'm actually looking at the dog.

 

I _know_ there is a real need for ESA dogs for humans. I've even met a few pairs (human/dog) over the past several years.

 

When I look at frauds, I'm looking at dogs that are NOT trained. Dogs that are not appropriately socialized, who potty at inappropriate times (and I'm not referring to accidents), and other types of frauds.

 

Service dogs must be held to a higher standard than a pet. They are afforded the status to be in places that pets do not belong.

 

Kris

[SeaConquest]

I wanted to address this directly, specifically after you quoted (a few days ago) one of my posts.

 

When I consider "fraudsters", I'm not looking at the HUMAN. I'm actually looking at the dog.

 

I _know_ there is a real need for ESA dogs for humans. I've even met a few pairs (human/dog) over the past several years.

 

When I look at frauds, I'm looking at dogs that are NOT trained. Dogs that are not appropriately socialized, who potty at inappropriate times (and I'm not referring to accidents), and other types of frauds.

 

Service dogs must be held to a higher standard than a pet. They are afforded the status to be in places that pets do not belong.

 

Kris

 

I understand your point, but ESAs are not service dogs, and they are not afforded the same rights as service dogs. Sure, if they are not pottying in appropriate places or are aggressive, etc., ESAs should not be allowed on flights. But, there is a legal difference between the requirements of an ESA vs. a psychiatric service dog for a reason. 

 

I don't want to give the impression that I think that there are no fake ESAs, or that I don't believe that there are people who pass off ESAs as service dogs. As the New Yorker article describes, it does happen. But, I am pressing this issue, with Tranquil Mind specifically, because people often pass judgment on people with mental health issues precisely because these conditions are not always obvious or visible to the casual observer. I mean, there are trained physicians who miss diagnoses -- mental health related or otherwise -- all the time; that doesn't make the health condition any less legitimate or real for the person dealing with it.

 

TLDR: Don't assume you know what is going on in other people's lives.  

Edited August 22, 2016 by SeaConquest

[Tanaqui]

You don't think it'd be weird if you saw some other kind of ape in the wild keeping some other animal just because? :-D

 

No, I wouldn't. This is normal behavior for some non-human apes.

 

Animals do not belong on planes. But hey, there is money to be made...

 

That is your opinion. It is not universal fact, nor is it, evidently, the opinion of the airlines.

[TranquilMind]

She didn't explain it at all. She just said that there is this big problem with fake ESAs. My question to you both is: what specific evidence do you have that these ESA are not legitimate? Are you privy to their medical records, have they told you directly that they are lying to their doctors, or do they just 'seem' fine to you?

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/pet-owners-game-emotional-support-animal-system-fly/story?id=30064532

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/easy-pass-off-everyday-pet-emotional-support-animal-30087713

 

http://www.emotionalsupportpet.com/

 

Landlords face this all the time.  Pet fee might be $500 (for those who take pets).  But get a letter online and you get to move your pet in without an additional cost. for those so inclined to do so. 

 

Many, many landlords have been told that the pet is magically now an emotional support animal just as soon as potential applicant discovers the landlord doesn't accept pets.  

 

If it doesn't apply to you, so be it. 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

TM, you've dodged the question. She's not asking "what evidence do you have that this has happened to somebody, somewhere", she's asking "what evidence do you have that the ones you have encountered personally are not legitimate".

[SeaConquest]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/pet-owners-game-emotional-support-animal-system-fly/story?id=30064532

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/easy-pass-off-everyday-pet-emotional-support-animal-30087713

 

http://www.emotionalsupportpet.com/

 

Landlords face this all the time.  Pet fee might be $500 (for those who take pets).  But get a letter online and you get to move your pet in without an additional cost. for those so inclined to do so. 

 

Many, many landlords have been told that the pet is magically now an emotional support animal just as soon as potential applicant discovers the landlord doesn't accept pets.  

 

If it doesn't apply to you, so be it. 

 

Sure, some people are a-holes and try to game the system. Duly noted. It happens everyday in all aspects of life.

 

But, that doesn't give you license to pass judgment on every person with an ESA, or to make the kind of discriminatory comments you've made in this thread. All you are doing is perpetuating the stigma that exists against people with mental health issues -- a stigma, BTW, that keeps many people from getting the help that they need.

 

Would you really want someone reading this thread not to get help for their depression or anxiety, etc. because they are afraid that people will think they are faking or that their condition is "all in their head?" 

[QueenCat]

 

 

But, that doesn't give you license to pass judgment on every person with an ESA, or to make the kind of discriminatory comments you've made in this thread. All you are doing is perpetuating the stigma that exists against people with mental health issues -- a stigma, BTW, that keeps many people from getting the help that they need.

 

 

 

TranquilMind did not pass judgement on every person with an ESA. Nor perpetuate stigmas. You read so much more into what she said than what she actually said. If anything, you've been pretty judgemental towards her, not the other way around.

[SeaConquest]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/pet-owners-game-emotional-support-animal-system-fly/story?id=30064532

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/easy-pass-off-everyday-pet-emotional-support-animal-30087713

 

http://www.emotionalsupportpet.com/

 

Landlords face this all the time.  Pet fee might be $500 (for those who take pets).  But get a letter online and you get to move your pet in without an additional cost. for those so inclined to do so. 

 

Many, many landlords have been told that the pet is magically now an emotional support animal just as soon as potential applicant discovers the landlord doesn't accept pets.  

 

If it doesn't apply to you, so be it. 

 

I will also add that I had this exact same issue with a breeder. She was very interested in me buying one of her Cavalier puppies until she asked about where we live. The conversation went like this:

 

Her: Do they accept pets where you live?

 

Me: It's a cat only building, but I will get a note from my doctor for an ESA.

 

Her: That's dishonest.

 

Me: Uh, no. Actually, it isn't. I have bipolar disorder, and she thinks that an ESA is a good idea.

 

Awkward silence.

 

Her: I don't want one of my Cavaliers to go to you.

 

Me: Because I have bipolar disorder???

 

Her: Because I am no longer comfortable.

 

Me: ???

 

[SeaConquest]

TranquilMind did not pass judgement on every person with an ESA. Nor perpetuate stigmas. You read so much more into what she said than what she actually said. If anything, you've been pretty judgemental towards her, not the other way around.

 

Seriously? Did you read all of the horrendous comments I quoted above? And I'm "judgmental" because I called her out about it? That is ludicrous.

[Tanaqui]

TranquilMind did not pass judgement on every person with an ESA. Nor perpetuate stigmas. You read so much more into what she said than what she actually said. If anything, you've been pretty judgemental towards her, not the other way around.

 

You must not be reading the same series of comments I'm reading.

[Tanaqui]

I just realized I never answered the question :)

 

I will say that this is a tricky issue, because allergies are also disabilities, as are severe phobias. However, I've never yet heard of the dog allergy or phobia that's only triggered by pets and not by "legitimate service animals", so if we're allowing service animals on planes it seems that these issues are not a good enough reason to keep (confined) pets of the same species off those same planes.

 

And people have service animals for all sorts of reasons, not all of which are easily discernible by the casual observer.

 

I don't know what percentage of allergic people are so allergic that one airplane length is not sufficient to keep them from having an attack. It does not seem unreasonable to me to assume that somebody so allergic might also suffer if their luggage in the cargo hold was kept near a pet. It might be that the only solution is to require airlines to not allow animals on certain flights and to carefully note on all booking information whether a flight is "no animals" or "only service animals" or "pet friendly". However, then each passenger is definitely responsible for knowing whether or not they need an animal-free flight and choosing accordingly.

[MSNative]

I'm not sure how often you fly, but I've never heard either on a flight.

Last year I flew on an international flight with a cat meowing the entire time.

More recently I flew across country with a woman who put her dog underneath my seat. That would have been fine except the dog whined and barked the entire 4 hour flight. And she talked to it. I guess trying to reassure it. It didn't work but it did add to the noise level. I also know that she was taking her dog with her while she went on a three day visit to her sister, who just redecorated her home, yada yada. Cause again she talked the whole time. lol!

 

I feel for pet owners who have to take their pets with them on a move or something or service animals. But both animals in these recent flights seemed very upset by the flight. I also feel badly for the passengers who have to listen to the pets whining, meowing and barking. The joys of flying.

 

Do most airlines offer pet free flights? It would seem that would be a good option for folks with severe allergies. Or do folks with allergies just have to pick the airlines with the most expensive fees and hope for the best?

(Sorry if this was already addressed. I thought I read through it all but I may have missed the answer)

Edited August 22, 2016 by MSNative

[creekland]

You must not be reading the same series of comments I'm reading.

 

We're all reading the same threads.  Just most of us understand both sides (including TM from her later posts), so find the nitpicking quite annoying.

 

There are legitimate needs.  There are fakers.  I suspect there are more fakers than legitimate needs TBH, but that doesn't mean the latter isn't there.  It can be tough to discern sometimes.  Fortunately, it's not something we need to worry about as landlords as we accept pets.  ;)

[QueenCat]

Seriously? Did you read all of the horrendous comments I quoted above? And I'm "judgmental" because I called her out about it? That is ludicrous.

 

I read her full comments, and can see both from them and knowing her past conversations about life in general, that you read far more into it than what she actually said. I'm not stupid, so of course I read the full messages she wrote. She has no problem with people with real disabilities having service animals. And before you try to say that I'm discriminating, based on that comment, know that I have do have people in my immediate family with bipolar and autism, and do know they benefit from having pets but they don't lie and call them service animals or esa when they haven't been trained as such. Pretty much everyone can benefit from pets as emotional support but that doesn't make it right to skirt a landlord's policy by saying  your dog is something it isn't.

[QueenCat]

You must not be reading the same series of comments I'm reading.

 

I read the full messages, not the truncated quotes.

[ktgrok]

I think people are confusing service animal and ESA. ESA animals are NOT trained to do anything in particular. It's more like having your best friend with you for moral support, not like having a trained nurse with you that provides a specific skill set. The only "job" of the ESA is to be there. Period. So no, you can't tell by the way the dog is trained, or not, if it is an ESA. That is what she keeps trying to point out. 

 

Service animals are different, and the dogs DO something. ESA animals just are THERE. 

[QueenCat]

I think people are confusing service animal and ESA. ESA animals are NOT trained to do anything in particular. It's more like having your best friend with you for moral support, not like having a trained nurse with you that provides a specific skill set. The only "job" of the ESA is to be there. Period. So no, you can't tell by the way the dog is trained, or not, if it is an ESA. That is what she keeps trying to point out. 

 

Service animals are different, and the dogs DO something. ESA animals just are THERE. 

 

I do think there is confusion about that as well. I do know of animals that are trained to help people with emotional/mental issues. Not sure how, but a friend of mine had a dog that was actually trained to help her son w/autism. I think the problem many of us have is not people with legit disabilities (mental or physical) but people who view their pets as their best buds and find ways to get letters, etc to work around the laws (especially related to rental pet policies and deposits).

[ktgrok]

I do think there is confusion about that as well. I do know of animals that are trained to help people with emotional/mental issues. Not sure how, but a friend of mine had a dog that was actually trained to help her son w/autism. I think the problem many of us have is not people with legit disabilities (mental or physical) but people who view their pets as their best buds and find ways to get letters, etc to work around the laws (especially related to rental pet policies and deposits).

 

A dog trained to work with a child with autism is a service dog. NOT an ESA. That's a service dog. He's trained to do certain things to help the child. An ESA is not. They are there for emotional support only. Now, if someone is passing off an ESA as a service dog, that's wrong. But an ESA is just a pet, seriously. NOT a service animal. 

[QueenCat]

A dog trained to work with a child with autism is a service dog. NOT an ESA. That's a service dog. He's trained to do certain things to help the child. An ESA is not. They are there for emotional support only. Now, if someone is passing off an ESA as a service dog, that's wrong. But an ESA is just a pet, seriously. NOT a service animal. 

 

I do know that ;) I'm just not explaining myself very well. What I do see, though, is people calling ESA's service animals and trying to use ADA law to get things that are for people with actual service dogs....

[ktgrok]

I do know that ;) I'm just not explaining myself very well. What I do see, though, is people calling ESA's service animals and trying to use ADA law to get things that are for people with actual service dogs....

 

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that stinks. I hate that. But a separate problem from the supposedly fake ESAs. Which are, at the heart of it, pets that someone just needs near them, not a trained working dog. 

SaveSave

[Catalytic]

I almost feel like this thread is saying having a mental health disability trumps having a life threatening disability.  I'm of the opinion that life threatening trumps all, and while I realize mental health problems can indeed be life threatening, there would be a much slimmer change of that on a plane flight.  And I do see it from both sides, I have a child with severe mental health issues, and I and one of my children have anaphylactic reactions to certain things (some animals and medications in my case, food in the child's)

[TranquilMind]

No, I wouldn't. This is normal behavior for some non-human apes.

 

 

That is your opinion. It is not universal fact, nor is it, evidently, the opinion of the airlines.

 

Yes, it is my opinion.  Thank you for appropriately quoting me by name instead of just yanking a snippet out so no one knows who you are quoting unless they happen to come back and see it.  (It won't even show up when I appropriately quote you by name). 

 

Learn how the quote feature works.  

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

I read the full messages, not the truncated quotes.

Truncated and unattributed quotes. 

[TranquilMind]

Last year I flew on an international flight with a cat meowing the entire time.

More recently I flew across country with a woman who put her dog underneath my seat. That would have been fine except the dog whined and barked the entire 4 hour flight. And she talked to it. I guess trying to reassure it. It didn't work but it did add to the noise level. I also know that she was taking her dog with her while she went on a three day visit to her sister, who just redecorated her home, yada yada. Cause again she talked the whole time. lol!

 

I feel for pet owners who have to take their pets with them on a move or something or service animals. But both animals in these recent flights seemed very upset by the flight. I also feel badly for the passengers who have to listen to the pets whining, meowing and barking. The joys of flying.

 

Do most airlines offer pet free flights? It would seem that would be a good option for folks with severe allergies. Or do folks with allergies just have to pick the airlines with the most expensive fees and hope for the best?

(Sorry if this was already addressed. I thought I read through it all but I may have missed the answer)

 

Um, why didn't she put it under her own seat?  Or do you mean you were in front of her? 

 

It looks like people with allergies are just on their own, hoping to find a place where they can breathe.  Much like those allergic to smoking in former years. 

 

[TranquilMind]

 

 

 

 Why the immediate assumption that people can just "get over it" or are trying to work the system? We would never think to say such things to someone who was blind. Is that because we don't believe that mental health conditions can be just as disabling, that they are not real health conditions? 

 

It's discrimination, through and through.

 

No immediate assumption.  But it does happen. 

 

No one is saying that having a pet does not calm someone down. It might.   The question is whether that pet should be allowed in a confined area given competing interests, such as allergies.  If there are no competing interests, then there is no problem. 

 

We have decided no, for nuts; they will not be allowed.    Why are pets/ESA's any different?  Why do we simply avoid nuts because someone may have breathing trouble, but we don't avoid pets on planes if someone may have breathing trouble?  

 

I had a set of tenants who knew full well that I offered only pet free housing.  They signed many documents to this effect and it was reiterated multiple times.  A few months in, they needed servicing to the HVAC,  and I go in.  They have brought in a dog, and a huge cat, and a snake.  Thanks to the presence of the cat, I spent the night trying to get my breath back. That is unacceptable. They knew darn good and well that they were NOT permitted to have any pets on the premises, but it was just a big screw-you, because they decided their interests were paramount to mine. 

 

I got them out finally.  But it caused me a lot of physical problems until I got the cat dander out, and this was before I could afford to have others clean it all up. 

When I finally renovated the whole house, you could still faintly smell cat in one bathroom on a very hot day.   Those people damaged my property and they hurt me personally all because they had to have their cat in my strictly no-pet housing.

 

 

 

 

 

[jemsmom]

Um, why didn't she put it under her own seat?  Or do you mean you were in front of her? 

 

It looks like people with allergies are just on their own, hoping to find a place where they can breathe.  Much like those allergic to smoking in former years. 

 

Like someone else up thread said, people with life-threatening allergies must communicate with the airline ahead of time about their specific needs.

[Tanaqui]

I read the full messages, not the truncated quotes.

 

So did I.

 

Also, TM, I have no idea what you think you're talking about, but every quote in SeaConquest's post has a name atop it.

 

 

I had a set of tenants who knew full well that I offered only pet free housing.  They signed many documents to this effect and it was reiterated multiple times.  A few months in, they needed servicing to the HVAC,  and I go in.  They have brought in a dog, and a huge cat, and a snake.  Thanks to the presence of the cat, I spent the night trying to get my breath back. That is unacceptable. They knew darn good and well that they were NOT permitted to have any pets on the premises, but it was just a big screw-you, because they decided their interests were paramount to mine.

 

 

Did they claim those animals were service animals? If not, I fail to see the relevance.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Tanaqui

[MSNative]

Um, why didn't she put it under her own seat? Or do you mean you were in front of her?

 

It looks like people with allergies are just on their own, hoping to find a place where they can breathe. Much like those allergic to smoking in former years.

 

I was in the seat in front of her. She put her dog carrier in the space underneath my seat as one would put their small carry on item. Sorry for any confusion

[idnib]

Non-pet owner here which leads to this question.

 

I have regularly seen small animals on flights and the occasional service dog. Last June when I flew into Phoenix, I saw a guy with a medium sized dog that was not in a carrier. The poor animal did not make it outside and relieved itself on the carpet next to a trash can in the terminal.

 

Are there some disposable pads that pet owners use on their travels?  I felt very sorry for the custodial staff. I know that airports have pet areas but obviously this pet owner did not know where it was or the poor animal simply could not handle the distance to it.

 

 

Also a non-pet owner so I can't answer the pads question. I've seen pet relief areas at SFO with a place for the pets to go, water bowls, and baggies for the owners to clean up. They are hilariously marked with hydrants and you have to follow paw prints to get there.

[TranquilMind]

TranquilMind did not pass judgement on every person with an ESA. Nor perpetuate stigmas. You read so much more into what she said than what she actually said. If anything, you've been pretty judgemental towards her, not the other way around.

 

Thank you. 

[TranquilMind]

So did I.

 

Also, TM, I have no idea what you think you're talking about, but every quote in SeaConquest's post has a name atop it.

 

 

 

 

Did they claim those animals were service animals? If not, I fail to see the relevance.

 

I'm talking about your quotes, not hers.  Here in this post, I am quoted yet unattributed (and it doesn't even show up when I try to quote you - not sure what you are doing, but it prevents everyone from responding to something you are quoting specifically). 

 

In other posts, I am quoted yet my name snipped off, so unattributed.  Please quote your source.

 

Here are posts where you do not attribute your snippets, just in this thread:

 

Posts 123, 130, and 147.  I can't quote them because they disappear, because you aren't attributing them properly. 

 

Below, I attempted to quote you and it won't disappear.  See above, where YOUR NAME, the date, and time are all cited before you are quoted.  Can you do that, like everyone else?    It is very hard to follow a conversation where you quote a snippet from one or  multiple people and snip all their names off.

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[mommytobees]

I almost feel like this thread is saying having a mental health disability trumps having a life threatening disability.  I'm of the opinion that life threatening trumps all, and while I realize mental health problems can indeed be life threatening, there would be a much slimmer change of that on a plane flight.  And I do see it from both sides, I have a child with severe mental health issues, and I and one of my children have anaphylactic reactions to certain things (some animals and medications in my case, food in the child's)

 

I'm not saying that (mental health trumps...), but I am saying that the way the laws are written, service animals (NOT ESA) trump life threatening allergy (you put disability...I'm not sure how that is, but I also have a migraine so my brain is a little pile of mush). And, I actually support those laws.

 

A DAD (Diabetes Alert Dog) or a Guide Dog or a _______, all well-trained and service dogs, should have the ability to go to the movies, a restaurant, an airplane, and wherever. There are ways to accommodate severe allergies. 

 

Kris

[mommytobees]

Yes, it is my opinion.  Thank you for appropriately quoting me by name instead of just yanking a snippet out so no one knows who you are quoting unless they happen to come back and see it.  (It won't even show up when I appropriately quote you by name). 

 

Learn how the quote feature works.  

 

 

That was a bit rude.

 

 

[Daria]

I almost feel like this thread is saying having a mental health disability trumps having a life threatening disability.  I'm of the opinion that life threatening trumps all, and while I realize mental health problems can indeed be life threatening, there would be a much slimmer change of that on a plane flight.  And I do see it from both sides, I have a child with severe mental health issues, and I and one of my children have anaphylactic reactions to certain things (some animals and medications in my case, food in the child's)

 

In an average year, less than 4,000 American die from asthma or anaphylaxis.    Which is horrible.  It's still far too many, and we need to take allergies seriously as a nation. 

 

But in the same time period, 42,773 Americans, more than 10 times as many will die from suicide, which is just one of the many ways someone can die due to mental illness.  

 

Mental illness is a life threatening disability, and while an individual might not die on the plane, not having the support they need can put them at risk at their destination.  

[TranquilMind]

I'm not saying that (mental health trumps...), but I am saying that the way the laws are written, service animals (NOT ESA) trump life threatening allergy (you put disability...I'm not sure how that is, but I also have a migraine so my brain is a little pile of mush). And, I actually support those laws.

 

A DAD (Diabetes Alert Dog) or a Guide Dog or a _______, all well-trained and service dogs, should have the ability to go to the movies, a restaurant, an airplane, and wherever. There are ways to accommodate severe allergies. 

 

Kris

 

Service animals are usually dogs that are so well-trained they are virtually unnoticed.    ESA's are just pets, that are not necessarily well-trained.

I guess if you have a dog allergy and sit next to even a well-trained service animal, you would still have a problem. 

 

[creekland]

In an average year, less than 4,000 American die from asthma or anaphylaxis.    Which is horrible.  It's still far too many, and we need to take allergies seriously as a nation. 

 

But in the same time period, 42,773 Americans, more than 10 times as many will die from suicide, which is just one of the many ways someone can die due to mental illness.  

 

Mental illness is a life threatening disability, and while an individual might not die on the plane, not having the support they need can put them at risk at their destination.  

 

You are really stretching it here IMO.  I doubt there are any who commit suicide due to a stressful plane ride... meeting up with fido after the flight should be just fine.

 

But I'm not against pets in planes.  I just don't like those - usually small yappy dogs - who yap ALL THE TIME.  I doubt that reduces anyone's stress.  Chances are I don't even notice well behaved animals.  I have no allergies to worry about, but if I did, I'd be contacting airlines ahead of time to see what could be done.

 

I think ALL pets give their owners therapy of sorts.  I personally love my cats (and when I had them, dogs).  It's why we allow pets in our rental units.  Yes, there might be more damage occasionally, but I think renters deserve the chance to have the emotional support from pets too - no note required.  We do have a $100 non-refundable one time pet fee to cover extra cleaning and/or damage, but I don't think that's out of line.

 

Some colleges are starting to allow pets in (some) dorms.  Youngest goes to such a school.  Other colleges bring in pets during stressful times like exams.  Hospitals are starting to allow pets in places too (for visits - not to live).

 

The therapy our furry friends provide some of us is real.

 

Now with some of those non-furry critters... pigs, turkeys, etc.  I start to have real questions about them being in the cabin vs cargo.  I wouldn't want loose snakes either.

[Daria]

You are really stretching it here IMO.  I doubt there are any who commit suicide due to a stressful plane ride... meeting up with fido after the flight should be just fine.

 

But I'm not against pets in planes.  I just don't like those - usually small yappy dogs - who yap ALL THE TIME.  I doubt that reduces anyone's stress.  Chances are I don't even notice well behaved animals.  I have no allergies to worry about, but if I did, I'd be contacting airlines ahead of time to see what could be done.

 

I think ALL pets give their owners therapy of sorts.  I personally love my cats (and when I had them, dogs).  It's why we allow pets in our rental units.  Yes, there might be more damage occasionally, but I think renters deserve the chance to have the emotional support from pets too - no note required.  We do have a $100 non-refundable one time pet fee to cover extra cleaning and/or damage, but I don't think that's out of line.

 

Some colleges are starting to allow pets in (some) dorms.  Youngest goes to such a school.  Other colleges bring in pets during stressful times like exams.  Hospitals are starting to allow pets in places too (for visits - not to live).

 

The therapy our furry friends provide some of us is real.

 

Now with some of those non-furry critters... pigs, turkeys, etc.  I start to have real questions about them being in the cabin vs cargo.  I wouldn't want loose snakes either.

 

Mental illness doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.  Raising someone's stress level can have long term consequences.  The negative impacts of stress don't just dissipate when (if?) Fido comes up on the conveyor belt.  

 

In addition, there may be people with mental illness who can't face the possibility of flying without support.  Taking away their ability to visit family members, or do their jobs, can result in reduced social connections, which can have significant impacts on long term health.

 

I'm not saying that the answer to this is simple, but the idea that allergies must trump mental illness, because allergies are "life threatening" is absurd, and it's part of a bigger idea that mental illness is less real or less serious than physical illness. 

[skimomma]

 

I wonder how the woman with the fish got that much liquid past security! 

 

It was pre-9/11.  My biggest question was how she got the fish through the tops of the narrow openings.  I imagine a funnel, right?  But that seems a bit traumatic for the fish that she clearly loved.  A lot.

 

My guess is that many people who are thinking pets on planes is a terrible thing and should not be allowed actually have flown with pets on planes and had no idea.

 

Again, I wouldn't do it because I have no need to and my pets do not have the temperaments to make it a good experience for them, me, or anyone else on the plane.  But I see cats or small dogs on almost every flight I have been on and I fly A LOT.  They are hard to spot but it is indeed a rare flight that I do not see one.

 

Obnoxious people are obnoxious people.  People who bend rules at the expense of others' comfort suck.  They suck whether they are smuggling animals (or peanuts) where they shouldn't or they are being drunk and loud on an airplane or trying to heave in more luggage than allowed or etc....  That is just what it is.  But most people (with pets or not) on planes are just trying to do the same thing you are.....get somewhere with as little drama as possible.  

 

Airlines have had to have talked this up and down as they juggle the needs of all of their customer base.  If one does indeed have a life-threatening allergy to anything (pets included), they need to work with the airline every time they fly.  If one just thinks it is a bad idea because someone somewhere might have an allergy or they just don't like pets or don't understand pets or whatever, I'm afraid you are just going to have to suck it up just like you have to for all the other annoying things people do (preventable or not) on planes.

[creekland]

Mental illness doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.  Raising someone's stress level can have long term consequences.  The negative impacts of stress don't just dissipate when (if?) Fido comes up on the conveyor belt.  

 

In addition, there may be people with mental illness who can't face the possibility of flying without support.  Taking away their ability to visit family members, or do their jobs, can result in reduced social connections, which can have significant impacts on long term health.

 

I'm not saying that the answer to this is simple, but the idea that allergies must trump mental illness, because allergies are "life threatening" is absurd, and it's part of a bigger idea that mental illness is less real or less serious than physical illness. 

 

I get what you're saying now.  I was thinking you meant at the other end of their flight... not long term with other factors coming into play.

 

In case anyone is curious... the first person to go over Niagara Falls in a barrel (in 1901) took her cat with her.  Poor ESA cat!  I bet it'd have preferred an airplane ride.

 

http://www.infoniagara.com/niagaradaredevils/annietaylor.aspx

 

NOTE:  Several sources say the cat went over first a couple of days prior to Annie Edson Taylor and some say the cat went with her.  Perhaps the poor cat had to go twice?

 

SECOND NOTE:  Can anyone imagine being in a barrel going down a river, then the falls, with a CAT?  One has to wonder if it was declawed - or not.

[Tanaqui]

TM, you were responding to somebody who was talking about the quotes I had read, not any posts I had made. She was talking about the comment that somebody else had made. Your response just doesn't make any sense.

 

Can you do that, like everyone else?

 

No, I can't.

 

Listen, I'm not particularly interested in reading another tiresome retread of this derail, and I can't imagine anybody else is either. If you have a problem with me, take it up with the mods. Or make your own thread. Or just, I dunno, stop replying to me? Seriously, there are soooooo many options.
 

You are really stretching it here IMO.  I doubt there are any who commit suicide due to a stressful plane ride... meeting up with fido after the flight should be just fine.

 

Perhaps "Fido" dies in the cargo hold. I'm sure that will greatly exacerbate the stress of the situation.

[Tanaqui]

I can't imagine going over the falls in a barrel to begin with! *shudders*

[Liz CA]

I think pretty soon, we will be flying with any kind of animal as long as we pay an extra seat. You might sit next to a French Mastiff on an overseas flight. At least you won't have to say anything if you don't want to converse..he'll just drool a wee bit. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

That article about the pig...LOL.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Liz CA

[creekland]

Perhaps "Fido" dies in the cargo hold. I'm sure that will greatly exacerbate the stress of the situation.

 

Perhaps Fido dies in the car crash on the way to the airport.  That won't help either.  We can stretch these things a long way if we want to.

 

I can't imagine going over the falls in a barrel to begin with! *shudders*

 

Me either.  When my class from school knew we were going to Niagara Falls last fall some students jokingly asked me if I'd be going over in a barrel.  I told them that if they ever heard of either that or my committing suicide via falls, to immediately have them open up a murder investigation.  There's no way that was "willing!"

 

ps  The suicide part came up because the day or two before someone doing just that made the news.

 

pps  With the barrel part I had to inform some that one isn't legally allowed to do that - and it's not an amusement option while there.  Both made quite the rabbit trail in class that day, but it was fun - and a couple were able to convince their parents to vacation there this past summer...  I have no idea how many took their pets with them, but neither of them flew to get there so I suppose it doesn't matter.  ;)

[ktgrok]

Again, depending on the time of year, length of flight, and health of the pet, flying cargo may not be an option at all. So yes, a person with an ESA that can't have them in the cabin would possibly have to make the trip without them. Or, at best, worry about them while they are in cargo, possibly adding to their mental health issues. Stress hormones, once released, stay up for days. 

[TranquilMind]

Mental illness doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.  Raising someone's stress level can have long term consequences.  The negative impacts of stress don't just dissipate when (if?) Fido comes up on the conveyor belt.  

 

In addition, there may be people with mental illness who can't face the possibility of flying without support.  Taking away their ability to visit family members, or do their jobs, can result in reduced social connections, which can have significant impacts on long term health.

 

I'm not saying that the answer to this is simple, but the idea that allergies must trump mental illness, because allergies are "life threatening" is absurd, and it's part of a bigger idea that mental illness is less real or less serious than physical illness. 

 

Inability to breathe does trump all else.  Full stop.