encouraging growth/maturity

[caedmyn]

Is there a way to encourage a child to "grow up", or does it just have to happen naturally at some point?  Quite a lot of the time I feel like my 10 YO is about 2 years old and I am constantly having to think and made decisions for her because she doesn't seem to be capable of doing it herself.  And focus...she does have same ADHD symptoms but if there's something she really wants to do afterwards or DH lays down some big consequences, she's magically capable of focusing quite well.  For example, if anyone is using a screen, anywhere, she's got to be right there seeing what's going on.  This includes when the 3 YO plays Starfall on my phone!  She won't concentrate on chores or anything she's supposed to be doing if there's anything remotely interesting going on (ie if any of her brothers are making the slightest bit of noise or could possibly be doing anything that might be interesting, or if I'm around for her to ask any of her endless stream of questions).  We have worked on executive function stuff, and at this point I think it is more an issue of habit and poor self-control than because of her overall focus issues.  Realistically, she lives in a house with 5, soon to be 6, other people, we are mostly in the kitchen/living room area, and she has got to learn to do things without constantly letting herself be distracted.  She does do schoolwork in a quiet space away from everyone.  I am convinced that she has no filter on her mouth either--every single thought that pops into her brain seems to come right out her mouth.  She's getting old enough that she needs to learn when it's appropriate to talk, and when it's not, and what's appropriate to say, and what's not.  She'll even talk over people because she's not paying any attention to what's going on around her.  I have been working on this with her for several years, and I don't think there's been any progress.  Is there anything I can do to work on these issues with her??

[Elizabeth 2]

First, big hugs.

 

No. She can't. You can't.  Just like children walk at different times, read at different ages, and some people never grow up, they can't just emotionally grow up when we want.  Whether we have 1, 3 or 10 children, they will all grow up at different rates and we can't force it on them at our need or desire.  You are expecting another little one.  It's hard.  You need her to be more responsible, but she needs you to be her mom.  However that may be at this point.

 

BUT. 

 

DS10 has ADHD badly and, after changing out the personal pronouns above, you could have written about him EXACTLY. The hyper focus with immediate consequences looming. Lack of forsight.  Lack of personal space.  Screen magnet.   ALL of it. 

 

Have you had her diagnosed?  Have you ruled out other issues? Girls are much more likely to be undiagnosed. For everyone's sake, PLEASE, get it checked, not by a general practitioner, because they will often miss small signs.  By a pediatrician or psychiatrist, or some other specialist.  Because if she does, everything you say is going on is par for the course.  It's not about medicating.  It's about understanding that the above will not and cannot be willed away by her or you. She can't.   And being in a house of soon to be 5, (with a momma who is rightly unconfortable and easily frustrated) will make the symptoms appear more readily, there is just too much going on, especially being the oldest for her to actually focus. And once the new little on comes it will probably get worse since you will not have the sleep to help the patience needed to deal this.  

 

Even without a diagnosis of ADHD, this behavior is extremely frustrating and 10 is a very hard age.  This post by PATTYJOANNA was very encouraging. 

"The moms said they had also chosen that time to sort of start putting on the pressure, which just resulted in a bad situation all around.  They said this was a time to listen, with your ears, with your heart, to listen "between the lines," and to do a lot of very short (like car-trip-to-the-grocery-store-short) conversations that introduced a lot of language they could use to describe their feelings, to put names to things they are experiencing that they don't have the vocabulary for.  There is a LOT going on for a 10yo, but they lack the language and so they are barely able to keep their heads above water, let alone take on pressure to GROW UP.  HELP them grow up, especially emotionally."

 

 

 

[Sahamamama]

Is there a way to encourage a child to "grow up", or does it just have to happen naturally at some point?  Quite a lot of the time I feel like my 10 YO is about 2 years old and I am constantly having to think and made decisions for her because she doesn't seem to be capable of doing it herself.  And focus...she does have same ADHD symptoms but if there's something she really wants to do afterwards or DH lays down some big consequences, she's magically capable of focusing quite well.  For example, if anyone is using a screen, anywhere, she's got to be right there seeing what's going on.  This includes when the 3 YO plays Starfall on my phone!  She won't concentrate on chores or anything she's supposed to be doing if there's anything remotely interesting going on (ie if any of her brothers are making the slightest bit of noise or could possibly be doing anything that might be interesting, or if I'm around for her to ask any of her endless stream of questions).  We have worked on executive function stuff, and at this point I think it is more an issue of habit and poor self-control than because of her overall focus issues.  Realistically, she lives in a house with 5, soon to be 6, other people, we are mostly in the kitchen/living room area, and she has got to learn to do things without constantly letting herself be distracted.  She does do schoolwork in a quiet space away from everyone.  I am convinced that she has no filter on her mouth either--every single thought that pops into her brain seems to come right out her mouth.  She's getting old enough that she needs to learn when it's appropriate to talk, and when it's not, and what's appropriate to say, and what's not.  She'll even talk over people because she's not paying any attention to what's going on around her.  I have been working on this with her for several years, and I don't think there's been any progress.  Is there anything I can do to work on these issues with her??

 

As far as the difficulty with noise is concerned, I used to be this kid, and I never outgrew it. I still have a very hard time concentrating with "background noise," and I don't think maturity has a thing to do with it. I hear everything, I always have. I remember one time when I was about 11 years old, just exploding about "all the noise in this house," and my parents said, "What?" To them, the house was quiet. I then told them all the sounds I could hear -- the neighbor's dog barking down the street, the traffic on the road, the clock ticking in the kitchen, the dishwasher running, the dryer in the laundry room, my sister's radio upstairs, the squeaky rocking chair, and my father's watch (on his wrist). They were like :huh: :huh: , "You really HEAR all that?"

 

Yup.

 

There are times now when I use ear plugs, just to give my nervous system a break. If I had known how helpful those would be, I might have used them in school, especially during math exams. Hindsight is 20/20, right? If I could afford them, I would invest in a pair of Bose noise-cancelling head phones.

 

My husband will try to tell me that he's going to be in _________ (insert state) next week for work, while (1) the range fan is on high, (2) he is cooking a stir-fry in the iron skillet, (3) the girls are watching Liberty's Kids in the adjoining room, (4) two fans and two air conditioners are running full blast, (5) the phone is ringing, and (6) I am washing dishes. After 13 years, does he really think that will compute? I mean, really? So we have a rule that if it's happening, it gets written on the calendar. That, I can see.

 

You have to use whatever works for your particular child. If a noisy (to her) environment doesn't cut it (for her), no amount of saying it should will make it so. You will have to decide if it's time for assessment and assistance, or if you will to continue to blame her for what she possibly cannot change.

 

I do think it's possible to support, and perhaps change, some of what your daughter is doing that frustrates you, but only if you begin from an understanding that this is how she is wired (if that is the case). Wouldn't you think that most kids in most situations would pick up on social cues that one doesn't, for example, walk into a room with one's mouth in gear? Most people probably pick up on the fact that it's better to walk into a room quietly, assess whether or not there's a conversation in progress, wait for an entry point, and then begin to speak. But if a person doesn't pick up on this (by a certain age), you have to wonder why.

 

My father is 84, and he still walks into a room with his mouth in front of his feet. But I do think this can be addressed, intentionally, if we understand (first) that this is probably wired into a person. My twins do this constantly, but it's getting much better with work. What we do is to re-do the scene -- Okay, you walked into the room with your mouth, go back out, walk back in (silently), decide if there is something going on that you should wait for, then find your point of entry into the scene. We practice that until it becomes much more automatic. Obviously, no one ever took the time to do this with my dad. :laugh:

 

Sometimes I will say to my girls, "What is going on around you? What was happening, just now, when you interrupted that conversation?" It's not said in a condescending way or blaming way, but matter-of-factly, as if we could all just step back and observe the scene for a bit. We look at "the scene" -- who was talking, was that person finished, how would you know, and so on. We talk about figuring out when to jump in. I think this is in part because they are identical twins, so they've been competing for space and attention since in utero. My theory on it, anyway, LOL.

 

Ten is tough. I think that's when moms want to see some signs of maturity and those signs might still be a way off down the road. FWIW, I was like that last year with my oldest, who now, at 11.5 is only beginning to come out of the profoundest flakiness ever seen on the earth.

 

Hang in there.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Sahamamama

[caedmyn]

 

 

You have to use whatever works for your particular child. If a noisy (to her) environment doesn't cut it (for her), no amount of saying it should will make it so. You will have to decide if it's time for assessment and assistance, or if you will to continue to blame her for what she possibly cannot change.

 

I do think it's possible to support, and perhaps change, some of what your daughter is doing that frustrates you, but only if you begin from an understanding that this is how she is wired (if that is the case). Wouldn't you think that most kids in most situations would pick up on social cues that one doesn't, for example, walk into a room with one's mouth in gear? Most people probably pick up on the fact that it's better to walk into a room quietly, assess whether or not there's a conversation in progress, wait for an entry point, and then begin to speak. But if a person doesn't pick up on this (by a certain age), you have to wonder why.

 

My father is 84, and he still walks into a room with his mouth in front of his feet. But I do think this can be addressed, intentionally, if we understand (first) that this is probably wired into a person. My twins do this constantly, but it's getting much better with work. What we do is to re-do the scene -- Okay, you walked into the room with your mouth, go back out, walk back in (silently), decide if there is something going on that you should wait for, then find your point of entry into the scene. We practice that until it becomes much more automatic. Obviously, no one ever took the time to do this with my dad. :laugh:

 

Sometimes I will say to my girls, "What is going on around you? What was happening, just now, when you interrupted that conversation?" It's not said in a condescending way or blaming way, but matter-of-factly, as if we could all just step back and observe the scene for a bit. We look at "the scene" -- who was talking, was that person finished, how would you know, and so on. We talk about figuring out when to jump in. I think this is in part because they are identical twins, so they've been competing for space and attention since in utero. My theory on it, anyway, LOL.

 

 

 

This might help.  I will try it.

 

I am willing to work within her limitations, but there are so any things I have been trying to work on with her for literally years with no significant improvements.  It is very frustrating when she really is not any less difficult of a child than my others--and two of out the three of the others are VERY difficult children.

 

Arguing...any suggestions for that?  I have spent at least the last three years trying to get her to stop arguing/contradicting literally every single thing I say.  We have had numerous conversations about what constitutes arguing and what constitutes a nice conversation.  For example, today we had a playdate at a park by a river.  The other mom didn't want her DD to go very near the river though I didn't have a particular problem with DD playing near the river.  DD and the other girl were told to stay back from the river and I specifically explained that the other mom didn't want her DD near it.  Twenty or so minutes later she was back again trying to get permission to go over to the river.  Same explanation, wanted to keep talking about it why they should be allowed to go over by the river   She does this with everything.  If I say what I'm making for dinner, she suggests something different or at least one change in the menu.  If I made a new dish, she mentions that she liked a similar one better or she'd like it better fixed a different way.  If I tell her not to do something, she always has to mention that she was just going to do it X way for Y reason or ask if she can do it just a little bit differently.  Nothing I say passes without comment or challenge.  It is just exhausting.  It is not just me noticing this either.  A friend who has given her some riding lessons also has mentioned that she always wants to do things just a little bit more than or a little bit different than what she's been asked to do.  She won't just take the instruction and go with it, she has to ask for some sort of change.

[caedmyn]

 

 

Even without a diagnosis of ADHD, this behavior is extremely frustrating and 10 is a very hard age.  This post by PATTYJOANNA was very encouraging. 

"The moms said they had also chosen that time to sort of start putting on the pressure, which just resulted in a bad situation all around.  They said this was a time to listen, with your ears, with your heart, to listen "between the lines," and to do a lot of very short (like car-trip-to-the-grocery-store-short) conversations that introduced a lot of language they could use to describe their feelings, to put names to things they are experiencing that they don't have the vocabulary for.  There is a LOT going on for a 10yo, but they lack the language and so they are barely able to keep their heads above water, let alone take on pressure to GROW UP.  HELP them grow up, especially emotionally."

 

 

 

 I will try to keep this in mind.

[HS Mom in NC]

Are you telling her what to do or are you asking her what she is supposed to do so she can practice the thought process on her own?  For example, with a 10 year old I would not say, "Go do your chores now that school is done." I would ask, "School is done.  What should you do next?" If I don't get the right answer I'll ask more questions like, "What do we usually do after school?" If I still don't get the right answer I'll ask, "What did we do after school yesterday? What did we do after school the day before that?" If I thought a kid needed a chart with the routine so they could stay on track I wouldn't hesitate to do that.  I would ask them to tell me what we usually do and in what order so they can engage in active thinking for the chart and then I would make any corrections needed.

When my child isn't doing what she's supposed to be doing I asking things like, "What are you doing right now?" and then "What are you supposed to be doing now?" and "What did I tell you to do?" For multi-step chores like cleaning the bathroom, bedroom or play room, I have a way to break it down with a checklist.  For the bathroom I hand the kids a list of each step in order for cleaning the bathroom with a plastic sheet cover and a wet erase marker.  I tell them not to leave the room until it's done.  Then I ask something like, "Why am I handing you this sheet and the marker?" They answer with something like, "So I can mark it off as I go." Then I explain I will use that sheet to check and see that each step was 1. done and 2. done correctly. If not, it will be done and redone until they get it right.  I would actually say, "I have all day so if it takes 25 times, then so be it."  I really would keep doing it all day.  My youngest holds the record for having to redo an assignment 4 times before it was acceptable because she totally blew it off and did a terrible job the first 3 times.
 

When my kids are inappropriate I ask questions to teach them how to think about things.  "Where are we?" [Church, the park, a library, etc.]  Then, "How should people act in a church/park/library?" None of these questions are a rhetorical device, I actually wait for the answer to come out of their mouths (I insist on it) and respond accordingly.  It's helpful to hear their answers so I can better understand if it's some sort of misunderstanding or just plain obliviousness. Other questions would be things like, "What should you do when someone else is speaking?" [Listen.  Be quiet.]

When they were younger we prepped them for a change in environment and norms by first talking them through it and then having them talk us through it.  If we were going to the park I would say, "We're going to the park.  Stay where you can see me.  Be careful not to step on or run into little kids. Share.  Take turns. Include everyone. Be nice." After several times of prepping, I asked, "How do we act at the park?" Then they told me.  If they left something out, I reminded them. "How do we act in church?" [inside voices and walking in building. Follow the teacher's directions. Participate in standing, sitting, singing with congregation. Quiet activity during sermon. No talking during service except for emergencies.]

 

Some children haven't put together that when we speak, we're demanding attention and we can't always be the center of attention.  People should take turns giving and getting attention. With my oldest I had to say in a matter-of-fact tone, "You've been talking for a long time.  It's time to be quiet for a while." Or, "I'm done listening to you for a while.  Find something else to do." or "Now it's time for you to stop talking and start listening to someone else." You can't assume every kid will intuit everything they need to know-some have to be told explicitly.

My oldest went through quite an argumentation phase. We met that with stern consequences.  I prepped some things with, "Without arguing or complaining, go to bed. " If there was arguing or complaining, there were consequences. I have told my kids, "This isn't up for debate." or "Asked an answered." or "I'm not discussing this with you anymore. or  "Your feedback isn't required in this situation-it's rude." There are consequences for rude.  I don't engage in debate about things that aren't negotiable because I don't care if they agree with me or not.  It's been decided.  There are things they can have input in and there are things they can't have input it.  I don't get sucked into arguing or worried about the fact that they aren't on board with my answers.

If my kid didn't cooperate with the riding coach then I would explain to my child that their behavior (I would give specific examples) show they're not ready for lessons.  The lessons would end. Done.  Then I would explain that lessons could begin again after a saw a several month dramatic improvement in the kid following directions without arguing, complaining or requesting a modification at home.  I would make it very clear that I'm completely at peace with the idea that they may never take another riding lesson again if their behavior didn't improve dramatically. I am at peace with that.

[The Governess]

I have a negotiator. I have to close the conversation. I do this by providing her with the correct response:

 

If I have said no after listening to her argument and explaining my reasoning one time, that's it. Any more arguing and I simply say, "Yes, Mom." This is her cue to repeat back to me: "Yes, Mom," and be done with the conversation. She needs the finality. I would do the same thing with your dinner situation, but the phrase would be "Thanks for making dinner, Mom."

 

Seems simple but it really works for her. As she gets older she is understanding boundaries better and the arguing has lessened.

[KSinNS]

You might find Barkley's Taking charge of ADHD helpful. I really did.

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/378324.Taking_Charge_of_ADHD

[Garga]

Yeah...be careful of the "when they want to focus they can, so they must not really have ADHD." That's a classic sign of ADHD: being able to hyper focus for a short period of time when the stakes are high. That makes me think more than ever that she has ADHD.

 

Also, a lot of ADHD people have a serious draw to electronics. Electronics are one of the few things that really occupies their brain and helps them focus. The relief of having something to focus on is so great that they are drawn to electronics like moths to light. That's another sign of ADHD.

 

Of course, these might just be quirks, but since you said she has other signs of ADHD it all fits.

 

And if it's ADHD, then no, she can't just start being mature and block out the sounds around her. She needs serious help with that. That sort of thing takes years.

 

My son has been on ADHD meds since he was 7. He'll be 14 next month. Over this summer, we stopped giving him the meds and for the first time ever, he wasn't just horrible off of them. He was still struggling mightily to get his math done (we do math every day in the summer), but some of the H part was toned down like never before off the meds. He was able to control his impulses better. All that to say: he's had 7 years of being on meds and knowing what it's like to be in control (when he's on the meds), plus 7 years of us helping to teach him how to think for himself and he's juuuuust starting to make progress when he's off the meds.

 

For us, I have no clue how I'd homeschool him without the meds. Work that takes him 20 minutes while on them takes him over an hour when off, and he's not trying to slack. He wants to get the work done. But he just can't. You can see the frustration on his face as his brain spins in circles and he can't get things done. But again, he's 14, so he's self-aware now compared to a 10 year old.

 

I'm not dxing her officially online, but I feel bad for kids with ADHD whose parents say, "Oh ho! You can focus when you want to! I'll just have to find a way to *make* you focus!" And the poor kid just can't.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Garga