Is 2nd Grade to Early for Latin?

[John Szarowski]

I believe the recommendation in TWTM is to start foreign language in the 3rd grade.

 

But I'd like to start with my boys this year. They are fascinated and excited by the connections I've pointed out between Latin and English, and how the roots of so many words come from Latin. The other day they were excited to tell Mom all about why the dorsal fin on a fish is called a dorsal fin, LOL.

 

Are there downsides to starting now? This will be our first year homeschooling and I don't want to overwhelm them... Or me. But their enthusiasm is contagious!

 

Thanks for any advice or recommendations.

[desertflower]

I say if they are enthus to go for it.  We started last school year with Song School Latin.  I don't know if this would be too babyish for your children.  It just depends on the children.  My children love to sing, so they love it. 

 

We have also started Song School Spanish. 

 

We do all of this orally.  Nothing written yet. 

 

Obviously, I feel that we can learn a foreign language or two at a young age!  I know a few people who learn a few languages as early as babyhood, so it can be done.  :)

 

Btw, I'm not an expert.  It's just how we homeschool.  :) 

[Kat w]

Yea I agree with deserflower. If they want to...ID pursue it.

 

I like interest led. They work St it better :)

I think that's sweet their enthusiasm excites you too.

I say, if you all want to do it...do it. That's one of the beauties of homeschooling :)

 

Maybe start them out with English from the roots uo? Or a flash card set that has the varying words thst come from that.

 

Or, if you wanted to try your hand at Latin like a curriculum... I'd try prima latina. It's by memoria press.

 

I used latina Christiana but hem for my big kids. We started in 3rd but I think that was they first year it came out.

I probably would have started it earlier if it had been out or I had known about it.

 

Have fun :)

Sounds like you guys are already havin alot of fun :)

[luuknam]

Typically Latin is taught with a focus on reading and translating (written translations), and grammar. At what point a kid is ready to read and write enough and understanding enough grammar depends on the kid. I've seen someone mention they did the Big Book of Lively Latin with a 2nd grader, BUT, that kid had finished First Language Lessons Level 2 in 1st grade, so was a year ahead in language arts. Or, you could do Song School Latin, as mentioned above - personally, I didn't think SSL would be worth the money, but other people like it. Likewise, a 2nd grader would probably be able to handle Rosetta Stone Latin (my youngest was near the end of 1st grade when I started him on RS Dutch and he's loving it, and all the RS are pretty much the same), but I wouldn't want to use RS for Latin (one of the reasons I'm planning on doing Latin this year with my entering 4th grader is to show an entirely different approach to studying a language - I think translating is horrible for any living language, but Latin is quite dead).

 

Since it's your first year homeschooling, you could also consider starting the year without Latin, getting a feel of where your kids are at, especially wrt language arts, and then adding Latin in October or November or w/e. Not every subject has to be started on the first day of the school year.

[knitgrl]

I know nothing about Latin. (I am sad that my parents let me take Spanish in high school and did not insist on Latin. Latin would have been much more useful to me.) But what I can say is that we used Song School Latin 1 for first grade last year and our daughter thoroughly enjoyed it. We have a few more chapters to finish up this year. That said, the second volume looks more involved than the first, and I think that we will be taking it at a slower pace this year, with no concerns about finishing it before the end of the year. If your boys are not into writing, then oral review works. Somebody else posted that she thought it was expensive, and that is always a consideration. For us, we will have three more kids coming up through the ranks, so I figure we will get our use out of it. My overall objective at this point is to encourage an excitement about Latin. Some friends who send their kids to public school thought it was too early and pitied my child for being forced to learn Latin at so tender an age. I'm not sure if they though I was making her read Virgil or what. She thought it was wonderful that it tied into our studies about the Roman Empire.

[3 ladybugs]

I would start it now... at least in a limited way if nothing else. My son is learning German and Latin and he will be 8 at the end of next month. He loves both. BTW English is the ONLY language we speak at home. 

[Dinsfamily]

I also have kiddos that like learning Latin. We did Song School Latin (SSL) as a fun intro in 1st/2nd grade. It is an age-appropriate program that focuses on vocabulary, not grammar. It gave us just enough taste to know we wanted to keep going. After SSL, we jump into Memoria Press's Latin programs.

 

I don't think SSL would be overwhelming for your first year. The workbook takes no time at all and you could listen to the songs for reinforcement anytime. Also, to save money, I never bought the Teacher's guide and haven't missed it. The CD is bundled into the student book.

[73349]

Go for it. Latin has a great "secret decoder ring" angle that's appealing to a lot of people.

[Alice]

I have started with all three kids in 2nd grade. With my first it was because he was just my first and I was overly enthusiastic about everything. :) I didn't regret it with him. He has loved Latin and I think will continue through high school and hopefully do AP Latin. I think it's his second favorite subject. I regretted starting early with my second as he is a different kid. I basically did the same things with him that I did with his brother and it took me a little while to realize how different he is in personality and learning style. He dislikes school in general and Latin just became one more thing for him to do. I think he would have enjoyed it more if we had waited. However, he now wants to finish through BB2 and then we'll see if he wants to do a different language. I had planned on waiting with my third child but she is much more like her oldest brother and is also highly motivated and wants more school. She begged to start this year so we will do that. 

 

We have used the Big Book of Lively Latin for all three kids beginning in 2nd grade. I've really loved it. It is easy to teach. We go fairly slowly at first and then speed up as they get older. It takes us about 2-3 years to get through each Big Book. That is a very slow pace but I've seen a lot of benefits from it, even from the son who I probably should have started later. I found that the Latin grammar often reinforced what we were doing in grammar in English. 

 

All that to say, sure it's fine to start, especially if your kids are interested. 

[Tranquility7]

We start Latin in kindy here, using Getting Started With Latin. I can't recommend it highly enough!! It is a *great* introduction, and super simple to implement (even for those of us who have never had any Latin ourselves). After taking 6-12 mos to make our way through GSWL, we move on to Lingua Latina (slowly!)

 

I think, for best results, it is helpful to have some basic English grammar before beginning. All eight parts of speech for sure, but also some basic parts of the sentence (subject, predicate, prepositional phrase). Being able to identify direct object and indirect object is helpful, too, though my first child learned first as we went through GSWL. I recommend going through Grammar Island and Sentence Island of MCT and the practice sentences, or FLL level 1 and maybe even 2.

 

If you want to start Latin now but your kids haven't had English grammar yet, you could start GSWL while at the same time start reading through Grammar Island together. Go through GI rather quickly (maybe a month), then start Sentence Island and Practice Island. In my experience, the two programs complement each other really nicely.

 

 

 

[Steven]

You might consider I Speak Latin (ISL). It does not focus on translation, but on teaching Latin as if you are learning a modern language. It is well scripted for the teacher/parent (even one who does not know Latin--I learned along with my daughter) and does not have a lot of seat work. The author suggests having the student make flash cards of the vocabulary by drawing pictures and writing the Latin word on the back side. We switched to doing photos, that I printed cheaply at Costco (later we switched to the computerized flash card system, Anki). Unlike SSL, you will cover quite a bit of real Latin grammar by the end of the book. 

 

If your purpose for learning Latin is specifically to teach English grammar, ISL should be supplemented with a good English grammar course (I recommend KISS), since ISL does not drill grammar in the traditional fashion. KISS Grammar would help them with the basics of recognizing adjectives, nouns, subjects, direct objects, etc. in English as well as Latin and give your boys names for the grammatical concepts to discuss the Latin grammar that they are learning by copying patterns in ISL. 

[Dmmetler]

Yes, but it may look different than with older kids. DD was dying to start Latin at age 5 because of binomial nomenclature, specifically, all those awesome dinosaur names, and then finding out that every other animal and plant had such names, too. We did SSL and Minimus, and then went to LfC-where she hit a wall. Oh, she could do the chants, but she simply didn't retain, and it was too much writing. At a Latin teacher friends' suggestion, we tried Cambridge, just having her read and do the stuff orally and play the games on the online site. She got quite good at reading Latin (and we got other books wherever we could to let her read in Latin). At 10, we started Latin Prep, part to whole, doing all the writing, and NOW she's ready for all the grammar, labeling, specific translation stuff.

 

Truthfully, I suspect she'd be in about the same place in Latin proper now if we'd started at age 10 vs at age 5. But she really enjoyed playing with Latin, has a good background in Roman history and culture, and is extremely good in and loves etymology, so I don't think it was wasted, either-but there is no way she's at a level with a kid who has had 6 levels of Latin starting at age 10 or so.

[EmseB]

I haven't read all the replies, but we start in 2nd with Prima Latina. It is a good basis for English Grammar and logic, and just general thinking skills. Even if they don't absorb all of it at that age, I think it is valuable in its own right, but we also use a Latin-centered curriculum, so maybe take what I say with a grain of salt.

[luuknam]

 Somebody else posted that she thought it [song School Latin] was expensive

 

To be clear, I said I didn't think it's worth the money, for my purposes. Which is not the same as it being expensive (though it's obviously not dirt cheap). However, it's my understanding that Dinsfamily is giving a pretty good description of what SSL is:

 

Song School Latin (SSL) as a fun intro in 1st/2nd grade. It is an age-appropriate program that focuses on vocabulary, not grammar.

 

I have no particular desire for a fun intro that focuses on vocabulary. So, for me, SSL would just be a fun extra, which means that at its current cost, I don't think it'd be worth it to me. But I don't think it's crazy expensive if that *is* what you're looking for. Like I said, there are plenty of people who like it.

[ReadingMama1214]

Dd starts Latin in 1st at her classical school. Not all kids do though. I believe in 1st it is viewed as enrichment and depends highly on the kids reading and writing ability.

[Bluegoat]

I would save Latin for later, when they are old enough to really get the most out of a grammatical approach - maybe in grade 4 to 6.  At a grade 2 level I would tend to use more of a natural langugae approach, which is better with spoken languages.

 

You could do something like Song School Latin, but IMO that is mostly just for fun.

[Tanaqui]

Shouldn't think so. After all, even Roman babies spoke Latin!

 

But you don't teach Latin, usually, to speak it. You teach it for translation. This alters your teaching approach somewhat, and not all kids that age are going to be thrilled with the methods.

[knitgrl]

The blessing of this forum is that you learn about about lots of different curricula and approaches. The downside is that you can start to question, "Have I chosen THE BEST approach/currculum for my child? What if what I am using is not THE BEST?" My line of thinking in choosing SSL was that everyone says you should learn a foreign language at an early age (which could certainly be a faulty assumption), and SSL was the only Latin program I had run across that was geared for younger kids. This thread proves I was not fully informed, as there appear to be a lot of other choices. Perhaps SSL is not THE BEST, but the fact remains that my daughter is learning a lot more Latin than she would in public school. :)

[dragonflyer]

We did SSL last year for 1st grade.  We enjoyed the songs, learned some vocab, and when finished my kid said "I love Latin."

This year we are using Prima Latina.  It has been a good step up in workload, and the full prayers are great for seeing Latin used in context.  It has also been introducing the English parts of a sentence.  I would not recommend it for a child weak in reading or handwriting, but it has been a great fit this year.

[Haiku]

Despite advice to the contrary, we waited until 6th grade to start Latin. I think that is a good age to start it. Kids are (generally) reading fluently and have a basic knowledge of grammar.

 

If your kids are excited, there's probably no reason not to start, but with a few caveats:

 

1) Unless your kids are grammatical geniuses, there is a limit to what your kids can learn when they are young. You may learn reams of vocabulary, but until your kids understand the parts of speech and how and why you decline a noun and conjugate a verb, you are not learning how to read, write, and use Latin. You're just learning a bunch of vocabulary and English derivatives and maybe some cute little songs. Unless you are satisfied just learning vocab for a number of years, you will quickly hit a place where you can't progress in Latin because your kids don't understand how to use ablatives and imperatives and subjunctives and the like. To me, spending years on vocab would have been spinning wheels for no good reason. YMMV.

 

2) Your kids may get bored of learning vocab after the novelty wears off. Then you have to decide: push on, because Latin in important to you and your homeschooling, or let it go. It can be hard not to get attached to things we begin studying; the idea of letting them go can be difficult. If you want your kids to Really Learn Latin, including putting in the Hard Work and Time Necessary, it may be better to wait until they are ready for the complex grammar than to start early and tread water for years. You could find yourself in a situation where now your kids are ready to Learn Latin (not just play with it), but now they are bored with Latin and hate doing it.

 

When I was trying to decide what to do with my dd in 2nd grade, I looked at three Latin programs for kids: Song School Latin, Prima Latina, and Latin for Children. SSL looked like a waste of time, for me. All vocab and cutesy songs, no real substance. My dd would have hated it. Prima Latina looked dry as dust and very expensive for the tiny amount of Latin you actually learned. Latin for Children (which I actually own) teaches a lot, but it moves extremely quickly, and I found the order of the topics to be odd. In the end, I decided it wasn't worth it until dd could use a real Latin program, not one watered down for kids. I started her in a high school Latin text near the end of sixth grade, and now, in 9th, she's almost read to start Latin III. We've had a great time with Latin, and we have made progress at a decent pace.

 

As I said, YMMV. If you and your kids are excited about learning Latin vocabulary, then give it a shot. Maybe use some of the free online games for Latin before investing in a curriculum, though.

[luuknam]

1) Unless your kids are grammatical geniuses, there is a limit to what your kids can learn when they are young. You may learn reams of vocabulary, but until your kids understand the parts of speech and how and why you decline a noun and conjugate a verb, you are not learning how to read, write, and use Latin.

 

I have to disagree with this - you can learn any foreign language (including Latin) without doing formal grammar, using an immersion approach (by which I mean lots of exposure to materials in that language - not necessarily moving to a place where it's spoken, which would be problematic with Latin). With a lot of exposure, you'd get a 'feel' for what ending needs to be used, or what it means.

 

I wouldn't want to approach Latin that way with my kids, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

[knitgrl]

1) Unless your kids are grammatical geniuses, there is a limit to what your kids can learn when they are young. You may learn reams of vocabulary, but until your kids understand the parts of speech and how and why you decline a noun and conjugate a verb, you are not learning how to read, write, and use Latin. You're just learning a bunch of vocabulary and English derivatives and maybe some cute little songs. Unless you are satisfied just learning vocab for a number of years, you will quickly hit a place where you can't progress in Latin because your kids don't understand how to use ablatives and imperatives and subjunctives and the like. To me, spending years on vocab would have been spinning wheels for no good reason. YMMV.

 

2) Your kids may get bored of learning vocab after the novelty wears off. Then you have to decide: push on, because Latin in important to you and your homeschooling, or let it go. It can be hard not to get attached to things we begin studying; the idea of letting them go can be difficult. If you want your kids to Really Learn Latin, including putting in the Hard Work and Time Necessary, it may be better to wait until they are ready for the complex grammar than to start early and tread water for years. You could find yourself in a situation where now your kids are ready to Learn Latin (not just play with it), but now they are bored with Latin and hate doing it.

 

You make a compelling case for me to drop SSL. I have a hard enough time trying to find an English grammar curriculum I like, a language I know something about, much less Latin, a language I know nothing about. I've bought into all the arguments that Latin is important and good to know for a variety of reasons, and want to make sure I provide that for my DD. Can you tell this is my first go round with homeschooling? :-)

[luuknam]

I wasn't going to mention this, but since you're now talking about possibly dropping Latin...

 

My line of thinking in choosing SSL was that everyone says you should learn a foreign language at an early age (which could certainly be a faulty assumption),

 

To be honest, I think the early age thing is exaggerated. The main thing is that if you start at an early age, the kids are more likely to have a more native-sounding pronunciation (my English is great, but since I didn't start learning it until I was 12, my 'th' isn't great). Of course, we don't even know how the Romans pronounced Latin (we can make some educated guesses, but we don't *know*), so I'd feel zero guilt about waiting until later wrt Latin.

 

That said, if your kids like Latin I wouldn't ditch it preemptively just in case they get bored with it later.

Edited August 16, 2016 by luuknam

[Haiku]

you can learn any foreign language (including Latin) without doing formal grammar, using an immersion approach (by which I mean lots of exposure to materials in that language 

 

That may be so, but since Latin is no longer spoken, I think it would be difficult to find an appropriate amount of materials that are engaging to young kids that would provide a true immersion experience. I'm not sure most 2nd graders would be fascinated by Caesar's Gallic Wars. ;)

[Haiku]

I've bought into all the arguments that Latin is important and good to know for a variety of reasons, and want to make sure I provide that for my DD.

 

I do think Latin is important. I don't think Latin in early elementary school is important.

 

I never had Latin in school. I was a beginner along with my dd. I posted above that I started my dd in a high school text, but I forgot that we actually started in Getting Started With Latin. We went through it in about 3 months, but it was the book that gave me confidence that I could learn/teach Latin with my dd. It's an amazing book that demystifies Latin. It doesn't take you far, but it's an excellent springboard. I highly recommend it for fifth grade and up (as long as your child has a decent grasp of basic grammar). I was worried about how well my dd was actually doing in Latin (I thought she was doing well, but as I never studied Latin before, how could I be a good judge?) until she took the National Latin Exam. She got a silver medal (one question from receiving a gold medal) with a score far above the national average. I knew then that she (and by extension I) was doing well. :)

[Haiku]

(my English is great, but since I didn't start learning it until I was 12, my 'th' isn't great)

 

I never mastered the Flemish /w/. I think it sounds legit, but my friends assure me it's not. :(

[luuknam]

That may be so, but since Latin is no longer spoken, I think it would be difficult to find an appropriate amount of materials that are engaging to young kids that would provide a true immersion experience. I'm not sure most 2nd graders would be fascinated by Caesar's Gallic Wars. ;)

 

It would definitely be harder to find enough Latin materials suitable for the younger crowd than other languages. That said, the thread was about starting a 2nd grader or so with SSL or something similar, and then there was the concern about treading water for too many years... you probably could spend a couple of years with SSL and Minimus and the like, so you'd be looking at a 4th grader. Not that most 4th graders would be dying to read Gallic Wars, but the older the kids get the easier it is to find enough materials (especially if you're religious... the Catholic church did the mass in Latin until the 1960s, so I suspect you can find a bunch of Psalms in Latin too, which could be sort of fun).

[Dmmetler]

It would definitely be harder to find enough Latin materials suitable for the younger crowd than other languages. That said, the thread was about starting a 2nd grader or so with SSL or something similar, and then there was the concern about treading water for too many years... you probably could spend a couple of years with SSL and Minimus and the like, so you'd be looking at a 4th grader. Not that most 4th graders would be dying to read Gallic Wars, but the older the kids get the easier it is to find enough materials (especially if you're religious... the Catholic church did the mass in Latin until the 1960s, so I suspect you can find a bunch of Psalms in Latin too, which could be sort of fun).

That was where Cambridge was nice for DD from about 7-9. The texts focus on the daily life of a Roman family, so while some of the topics weren't terribly relatable, they were more relatable than, say, Henle. She wasn't ready to do the written translations, but she could read it and talk about it, and there was a humor to it. My friend who recommended it teaches middle school Latin and she described it as being "made for middle school boys" and I can see that. She went through about 2 books a year, plus anything else we could find, doing it orally and online.

 

I can see the benefit of that early start and immersion-type learning by reading. When she reads Latin Prep, she can read and understand it, and then start to break it down because she already understands what she's reading. It's a lot more like studying grammar in English for her.

 

At the same time, though, she was also an early fluent reader. I think it would be hard to learn a 2nd language by reading if you are also learning to read, especially for a language like Latin where there's not a large number of texts designed for early readers out there.

[Dmmetler]

Oh, and one more thing-when DD was 7, I drove her and a friend to cheer camp each day, and one day, her friend asked if they could hear the "silly dog story". I realized I'd absent mindedly put on DD's car playlist and the other child was talking about a story in Latin about the family dog. This child had never been exposed to Latin, but was able to follow it well enough to tell that it was about a dog getting into trouble and people yelling at the dog from hearing the audio.