Pre-algebra in grade 8?

[Perogi]

I'm having a hard time nailing down which math to use this year.

We did Saxin 8/7 last year after using Singapore and then CLE.

Dd is testing on the borderline for needing to do Algebra 1/2 instead of Algebra 1.

I can't decide if I just relax and let her do the pre algebra again this year for grade 8 or if I need to push and prioritize her getting Algebra 1 done before grade 9.

[Tenaj]

How did she do on the last tests in 8/7?  Was it a struggle or was she consistently scoring at least 80%?  Not sure if you are trying to use the placement test for Saxon but it's not accurate if you've been using Saxon.

 

The guidelines I've read state that if a child scores at least 80% on the last few tests in Saxon 8/7 then they should be good to go into Algebra.  If not, then the recommendation is Saxon 1/2.  If you have to go that route, I wouldn't worry.  

 

If it makes you feel better, I have a freshman this year who is just now finishing up Saxon 8/7 (Lesson 85) and I'm not sure he'll be ready to go into the Algebra book.  We may spend the whole year on pre-algebra and then tackle Algebra either in the Spring/Summer or even next fall.  It is what it is.  He needs to be solid before we go on.

[EKS]

Why did you decide to test her?  If she did well with 8/7 (assuming that it was the 2004 edition), then I would move on to algebra.

 

Honestly, I think it is better to allow students more time to do Algebra I even if it means less time doing prealgebra.   So, IMO it is better to do Algebra I over two years than spend two (or more) years on prealgebra.  My experience with my own children is that doing algebra actually *strengthens* arithmetic skills.  This is assuming that you are working with your student and filling any holes that crop up.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2016 by EKS

[duckens]

Things I would take into account if it was my kid:

1) How hard does SHE want to work?

If she doesn't want to work hard, you would be banging your head against a wall to put her higher than recommended.  Some kids thrive on challenge.  Some do not.
 

2) Does math generally come easy for her?

When I was a child, I was offered Algebra 1 in 8th grade.  We were warned that it would be ~1hour of homework every night.  Since I loved math, and it had always come easily to me, I was all in.  Not all children are like that.

3) What are her career plans?

If she wants to enter a science field, I would push harder.  Math is the language of science.  Knowing math at a higher level will help her.

Likewise, if she wants to go to grad school, there are usually a lot of math (statistics) involved, even if it is not a science major (psychology, business, anthropology, education...)

4) What are her strengths?

For example:
I could EASILY see my older daughter being a field biologist, geologist, chemist, or astronomer.   My younger daughter will either work in computers or be opening for Saturday Night Live (if you only knew!!!!)  So, yeah, math is on the menu at our house.

However, your child has her own strengths, and you know them as her mother.  If working like crazy on a goal, or having a natural penchant towards the sciences is what you see in her, I would push. 

5) Is it necessary for her to achieve a certain level of math before high school graduation to qualify for a grant or scholarship?

Example: Iowa State University offers an automatic grant of several thousand dollars if the high school student achieves all of the following: GPA, SAT/ACT scores, 3+ years of foreign language, 3+ years of lab science, and math THROUGH Calculus. (There may be a few extra requirements).  I would be surprised if other state schools do not offer similar grants.

We are working towards those requirements.

[Perogi]

How did she do on the last tests in 8/7?  Was it a struggle or was she consistently scoring at least 80%?  Not sure if you are trying to use the placement test for Saxon but it's not accurate if you've been using Saxon.

 

The guidelines I've read state that if a child scores at least 80% on the last few tests in Saxon 8/7 then they should be good to go into Algebra.  If not, then the recommendation is Saxon 1/2.  If you have to go that route, I wouldn't worry.  

 

If it makes you feel better, I have a freshman this year who is just now finishing up Saxon 8/7 (Lesson 85) and I'm not sure he'll be ready to go into the Algebra book.  We may spend the whole year on pre-algebra and then tackle Algebra either in the Spring/Summer or even next fall.  It is what it is.  He needs to be solid before we go on.

 

 

Why did you decide to test her?  If she did well with 8/7 (assuming that it was the 2004 edition), then I would move on to algebra.

 

Honestly, I think it is better to allow students more time to do Algebra I even if it means less time doing prealgebra.   So, IMO it is better to do Algebra I over two years than spend two (or more) years on prealgebra.  My experience with my own children is that doing algebra actually *strengthens* arithmetic skills.  This is assuming that you are working with your student and filling any holes that crop up.

 

I felt like she was starting to get a little lost at the end.  If we slowed things down and went over anything she got wrong she could almost always correct it without assistance but sometimes on the tests she.....got overwhelmed maybe?  Or fatigued?  Only near the end of the book when it started to pick up.  The last test was a 70% but otherwise she usually scored above 80%.  At the end of the course I just wasn't sure so that's why I thought I would test her and see how she did overall.

 

Interesting - I feel like I've often heard that it's better to get a really, really strong foundation in prealgebra before moving on to Algebra.

[Perogi]

Things I would take into account if it was my kid:

 

1) How hard does SHE want to work?

 

If she doesn't want to work hard, you would be banging your head against a wall to put her higher than recommended.  Some kids thrive on challenge.  Some do not.

 

2) Does math generally come easy for her?

 

When I was a child, I was offered Algebra 1 in 8th grade.  We were warned that it would be ~1hour of homework every night.  Since I loved math, and it had always come easily to me, I was all in.  Not all children are like that.

 

3) What are her career plans?

 

If she wants to enter a science field, I would push harder.  Math is the language of science.  Knowing math at a higher level will help her.

 

Likewise, if she wants to go to grad school, there are usually a lot of math (statistics) involved, even if it is not a science major (psychology, business, anthropology, education...)

 

4) What are her strengths?

 

For example:

I could EASILY see my older daughter being a field biologist, geologist, chemist, or astronomer.   My younger daughter will either work in computers or be opening for Saturday Night Live (if you only knew!!!!)  So, yeah, math is on the menu at our house.

 

However, your child has her own strengths, and you know them as her mother.  If working like crazy on a goal, or having a natural penchant towards the sciences is what you see in her, I would push. 

 

5) Is it necessary for her to achieve a certain level of math before high school graduation to qualify for a grant or scholarship?

 

Example: Iowa State University offers an automatic grant of several thousand dollars if the high school student achieves all of the following: GPA, SAT/ACT scores, 3+ years of foreign language, 3+ years of lab science, and math THROUGH Calculus. (There may be a few extra requirements).  I would be surprised if other state schools do not offer similar grants.

 

We are working towards those requirements.

 

In asking dd she wants Algebra 1.  She likes challenge and she doesn't want to repeat what she feels like she already did last year.  She's a hard worker and never complained once last year about Saxon's long lessons or the weeks I took (before Christmas and at the end of the year) to do the supplemental practice and try to address some weaknesses (in her homework I kept track of all the errors and from which lesson they came so I could pinpoint areas she needed reinforcement).

 

I also plan to switch from the Dive instructional CD to Art Reed and hope that helps.  Initially dd didn't like the Art Reed sample I showed her last year so I went with Dive but this year I'm asking her to give Art a try.

 

I don't see her going into a math/science field.  She loves to read and write, she loves poetry and plays, and she's a helper.  I think she'll focus on the humanities.

 

I am having a hard time figuring out what our local high schools are doing for grade 9/10/11/12 math because they use strange names for the course, rather than something like "Algebra 1".

 

[Ellie]

I felt like she was starting to get a little lost at the end.  If we slowed things down and went over anything she got wrong she could almost always correct it without assistance but sometimes on the tests she.....got overwhelmed maybe?  Or fatigued?  Only near the end of the book when it started to pick up.  The last test was a 70% but otherwise she usually scored above 80%.  At the end of the course I just wasn't sure so that's why I thought I would test her and see how she did overall.

 

Interesting - I feel like I've often heard that it's better to get a really, really strong foundation in prealgebra before moving on to Algebra.

 

Then she does not need to do Algebra 1/2. She has all the pre-algebra she needs. If you think (or she thinks) she could use a little more, she could go back to about the middle of 87 and do it again, but it doesn't sound as if she really needs it.

 

The placement tests are intended for children who are not currently doing Saxon, so the results won't really tell you anything.

[Perogi]

Okay I went back and checked her scores.

 

Test 15 - 90%

Test 16 - 75%

Test 17 - 85%

Test 18 - 85%

Test 19 - 80%

Test 20 - 90%

Test 21 - 90%

Test 22 - 65%

Test 23 - 80%

 

So it wasn't the very last test that was bad, it was the second last.  And I remember why when I went back and looked - it was a poor choice on my part.  It was a busy week and dd wrote her test in the van, on the way to co-op, with her 2 siblings and 2 little ones we were babysitting.  She not only made some ridiculous errors she skipped one question entirely by mistake.

 

So does it look good to soldier on to Algebra 1??  Any reason to slow down, solidify things, and do Algebra 1/2?  What is expected for grade 8 and 9?

[EKS]

I'd move on to algebra.

 

 

 

[Ellie]

Okay I went back and checked her scores.

 

Test 15 - 90%

Test 16 - 75%

Test 17 - 85%

Test 18 - 85%

Test 19 - 80%

Test 20 - 90%

Test 21 - 90%

Test 22 - 65%

Test 23 - 80%

 

So it wasn't the very last test that was bad, it was the second last.  And I remember why when I went back and looked - it was a poor choice on my part.  It was a busy week and dd wrote her test in the van, on the way to co-op, with her 2 siblings and 2 little ones we were babysitting.  She not only made some ridiculous errors she skipped one question entirely by mistake.

 

So does it look good to soldier on to Algebra 1??  Any reason to slow down, solidify things, and do Algebra 1/2?  What is expected for grade 8 and 9?

 

The publisher never intended for children to do both Math 87 and Alg. 1/2. Your dc has over an 80% average; move on to Alg.1. The recommendation would be that if your dc gets through about half of Alg. 1 (or any other text, for that matter) and is really struggling, then she should go back to the beginning of that text and start over. And be sure that she does every.single.problem in every lesson.

 

[Tenaj]

Okay I went back and checked her scores.

 

Test 15 - 90%

Test 16 - 75%

Test 17 - 85%

Test 18 - 85%

Test 19 - 80%

Test 20 - 90%

Test 21 - 90%

Test 22 - 65%

Test 23 - 80%

 

So it wasn't the very last test that was bad, it was the second last.  And I remember why when I went back and looked - it was a poor choice on my part.  It was a busy week and dd wrote her test in the van, on the way to co-op, with her 2 siblings and 2 little ones we were babysitting.  She not only made some ridiculous errors she skipped one question entirely by mistake.

 

So does it look good to soldier on to Algebra 1??  Any reason to slow down, solidify things, and do Algebra 1/2?  What is expected for grade 8 and 9?

 

Move on to Algebra :)  She should be fine. I'd just watch her test scores in Algebra and if you see she's falling off that 80% guideline, back up 10 lessons, do them again and repeat the test.  

 

Also, just an aside regarding that 65%,  when we have a situation where a kid just tests really unexpectedly badly on one test, I have them redo the test the next day just to see if it was an aberration or a real problem with comprehension.

[EKS]

Move on to Algebra :)  She should be fine. I'd just watch her test scores in Algebra and if you see she's falling off that 80% guideline, back up 10 lessons, do them again and repeat the test.  

 

Also, just an aside regarding that 65%,  when we have a situation where a kid just tests really unexpectedly badly on one test, I have them redo the test the next day just to see if it was an aberration or a real problem with comprehension.

 

This.

 

Also, if you are not doing so already, I would give partial credit on tests from now on.  There is a huge difference between a major conceptual error--adding x + x^2 + x^3 and getting 6x, for example--and a sign error that is due to inattention.  

[Perogi]

I'd move on to algebra.

 

 

The publisher never intended for children to do both Math 87 and Alg. 1/2. Your dc has over an 80% average; move on to Alg.1. The recommendation would be that if your dc gets through about half of Alg. 1 (or any other text, for that matter) and is really struggling, then she should go back to the beginning of that text and start over. And be sure that she does every.single.problem in every lesson.

 

 

 

Move on to Algebra :)  She should be fine. I'd just watch her test scores in Algebra and if you see she's falling off that 80% guideline, back up 10 lessons, do them again and repeat the test.  

 

Also, just an aside regarding that 65%,  when we have a situation where a kid just tests really unexpectedly badly on one test, I have them redo the test the next day just to see if it was an aberration or a real problem with comprehension.

 

 

This.

 

Also, if you are not doing so already, I would give partial credit on tests from now on.  There is a huge difference between a major conceptual error--adding x + x^2 + x^3 and getting 6x, for example--and a sign error that is due to inattention.  

 

Ok, thanks everyone.  I'm feeling more confident.  I also talked to dh who does all math corrections and helps with dd now and he said he feels like she had a solid grasp and mistakes were generally due to fatigue (so many problems every day).  And sometimes hormones ;)  For some reason I thought it was a 90% average to move up to Algebra.  We always do every single problem and correct any that are wrong, as well as the warm up and drill sheet.  She's a trooper.  We also do all test corrections, so we did the corrections on the 65% test and saw that she knew how to solve the problems.  I haven't given partial credit because the Saxon books are pretty clear that it's all or nothing.  And I didn't want to skew the result for knowing if she should proceed to Algebra 1.  But I agree; I've been tempted.

[Omma]

It does sound like your daughter has the grades to skip 1/2.  Our last 5 tests didn't show any 90's and it was a borderline 80% average so what I did was to give tests from the beginning of Alg. 1/2 to see where they fell below 80% and started there.  It turned out to be about Lesson 23.  It was the right call for us.