s/o What is bullying?

[Lisa R.]

How do you define bullying? I'm not looking for more heart-breaking stories or anecdotes, but specific behavior (s) that you count a bullying. 

 

The reason I ask is that it means different things to different people. I know there is a continuum, but I'd like to hear how the board defines it.

 

The reason I ask is that if the word is overused, it loses some of its power. I think when people use the word bullying when behavior falls within the realm of normal childish behavior, it diminishes the real cases of bullying and causes victims not to be believed when they report.

 

The stories on the other thread are heartbreaking. I hear of educators ignoring kids and parents when they report they've been bullied. However, I do think educators are receiving reports of bullying when behavior is normal kid behavior causing them to become more callused to the word. 

 

Case in point: there was a girl in my school that was attention-seeking in each class. Time was wasted by her antics despite calls to the parent and teacher efforts. After months of this, a few kids came to her and told her to "knock it off and stop being a pain." The mother promptly called the school office and reported her daughter was bullied. So, I multiply this mother's behavior amongst all the moms of the special snowflakes and picture the educator's dilemma. 

 

It's my feeling that bullying gets ignored because of the people claiming bullying when it's not. This causes true bullying to be overlooked and/or under reacted to leaving the victim unprotected. 

 

(I'm hoping I explained myself well. I'm FIRMLY against bullying. I want kids who are reporting abuse by their peers to be believed.)

[Laura Corin]

Hobbes' teachers were quite good at working out what was going on. We complained about two different children. The first was continually putting him in situations where he would get in trouble - telling him there was a short cut and sending him into the girls' changing room, for example. The second continually poked and pushed him.

 

The first girl was talked to with her parents about her misbehaviour - it was malicious and deliberate. I saw her do worse to another child later on.

 

With the second boy, the headmaster just reminded him about personal space and keeping your hands to yourself. He wasn't malicious, just overly physical and lacking impulse control.

 

The problems stopped there for Hobbes.

[amy g.]

Well, in my opinion, telling her to knock it off was the job of the adults in charge. If my child had said that to a classmate, I would not like it at all, and she would absolutely need to apologize.

[goldberry]

 If my child had said that to a classmate, I would not like it at all, and she would absolutely need to apologize.

 

Wow, I really disagree with that.  I agree kids could have let the teacher handle it, but it was also affecting them directly by disrupting the class, and it was appropriate to say something.

[Guest]

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Edited August 19, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[dirty ethel rackham]

Malicious and deliberate attempts via words and/or actions to intimidate and isolate a person or group of persons to create a hostile environment. This usually involves separating them from the main group and "othering" them to eliminate or mitigate attempts by outsiders to diffuse the situation. It works because it creates fear ... In the victim and in the bystanders who do not want to be targets. That is my off the cuff definition.

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

Wow, I really disagree with that.  I agree kids could have let the teacher handle it, but it was also affecting them directly by disrupting the class, and it was appropriate to say something.

 

Agreed. Saying, "Your behavior is interrupting my ability to learn and I think you should stop," or even "knock it off" instead of "stop" is totally okay. But even if it wasn't said so politely and did need to involve an apology - like if they said, "Would you just shut up already!" or "We're so sick of you doing this!" or whatever - then I would not say it was bullying by a long shot. Doesn't sound like the girl was bullying either. Just an annoying, bully free situation. Plenty of those in the classroom.

[Farrar]

This piece - "Rude vs. Mean vs. Bullying" is one that I refer to for clarification. I think it's a pretty solid piece, written by a bullying expert:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/signe-whitson/bullying_b_2188819.html

[happypamama]

Physical abuse, definitely, especially ongoing and when someone has specifically said to stop.

 

Taunting, teasing, belittling, picking on someone for somehow being "less than" -- doesn't matter what it is, whether the person is short, unathletic, poor, socially awkward, whatever.  Deliberately saying things to make someone else feel less than.  Typical kid teasing is one thing, and I think it should indeed be squelched quickly, but if parents/teachers nip it in the bud quickly, kids learn that it's unacceptable social behavior to make public note of someone's differences, and I wouldn't call it bullying.

 

Taking or messing with someone else's things purposely to be annoying and mean.  

 

Deliberate exclusion, even if it doesn't appear that way (and girls can be slick and deceptive, so that adults don't always get what's going on).  Always leaving the same child last to be picked for gym teams (but haha, those same kids picked me first every time we had to do a group project).  Starting the Blond Haired Girls Club.  (Or whatever -- I made that one up.)  Purposely flaunting parties that obviously included all but one or a couple of kids.  You had a sleepover with five of your closest gal pals, out of a class of 20 girls?  Okay, not that big of a deal if the others overhear about it, if you're not deliberately flaunting it; you're not required to be best friends with every kid in the class.  You had a sleepover with 17 of the girls and made a huge show of talking about it in front of the two who weren't invited?  That's being a bully, IMO.  (ETA: These things aren't necessarily bullying; they can just be rude and mean.  When they're parts of an ongoing dynamic, especially targeted at specific other kids, then they're bullying behaviors.)

 

Telling another kid gently to knock off an irritating behavior is not, IMO, bullying.  (And I actually think it's great that the kids felt they could try approaching her first themselves before they involved the teacher.)  Choosing not to work with said kid because of the irritating behavior or even choosing not to include that child in activities isn't really bullying either, because in the real world, people don't hang out with you if you don't observe some basic social mores.  Although we all hope our children are the ones who can be inclusive and forgiving even of social quirks, even the nicest kids aren't always going to do that.  I don't feel that it makes them bullies.  Bullying, IMO, takes it a step further.  All of a sudden, nobody in the class is allowed to sit next to Wanda because she does that weird thing.  The kids call her Weird Wanda.  They mock her by doing a cartoonish imitation of her little quirks.  That's when it crosses into bullying, IMO.

Edited August 14, 2016 by happypamama

[Farrar]

I agree it's not bullying, but there's a good chance it won't solve the situation either. 

 

So called 'attention seeking' needs input from an adult with some knowledge about the many reasons kids do this. 

 

Sorry, but once an annoying behaviour is renamed 'attention seeking' there's a problem. One that isn't bullying, but can lead to it, and one that needs an ADULT to step and in and deal.

 

'Attention seeking' is a derogatory term used to other the person doing the annoying. 

 

Oh, absolutely. But I hardly think a kid in a class bursting out that they're annoyed by it needs anything more than the teacher to step in right then and redirect. I don't think it's a huge deal that a kid told another kid they're annoyed by her. Yes, the teacher should be the one to fix it. The students trying to won't solve it. But it's not even cause for the teacher to call home or speak to the student outside of class. And it's miles away from bullying.

[happypamama]

This piece - "Rude vs. Mean vs. Bullying" is one that I refer to for clarification. I think it's a pretty solid piece, written by a bullying expert:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/signe-whitson/bullying_b_2188819.html

That is a good article, and it really gets at what the heart of the issue is -- the ongoing repetition of deliberate cruelty.

 

I wish I didn't know this from personal experience.  I wish homeschooling had been more acceptable in the late eighties, and I wish my parents had pulled me out (and they probably do as well, looking back), when speaking to the teachers and other kids' parents proved fruitless.  A kid shouldn't have to take years of mostly unrelentless taunting, picking, and exclusion; it leaves a mark, and not a good one.  That's one of the big reasons I homeschool, because I don't want my kids in that environment day after day after day.  

[Farrar]

Actually, I think it can indicate that a path towards bullying by exclusion is opening up, particularly as the situation has gone on for months and isn't a one-off, but we will have to agree to disagree, and I acknowledge you have way more experience in the classroom than I do. 

 

Sure, it can bode poorly for how things are going to go... I guess I'm just thinking that in and of itself, it's not a huge deal assuming the teacher steps in and does his or her job. It sounds like this teacher isn't (she hasn't stepped in to deal with the disrupting kid after months, so to think that she stepped in to deal with a one off by some kids telling the disruptor to cut it out seems unlikely too) and that could eventually lead to a bullying situation, absolutely.

 

It's a red herring though... I think we can agree it's not a great situation and could get worse without the teacher doing their job, it just isn't bullying.

[nd293]

I know when I asked about bullying before enrolling my kids in school they were careful to differentiate between 'meanness' and bullying, defining the latter as systematic, and involving power dynamics and exclusion. So, if your child doesn't want to play with mine because she finds him annoying - that's not bullying. But if your child encourages other children not to play with mine because your child doesn't like mine, that moves into bullying territory. So it's not really about severity but about intention and power.

[Guest]

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Edited August 19, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[LucyStoner]

Bullying is a pattern of aggressive behavior paired with a power imbalance between the aggressor and the person being bullied.

[happypamama]

The children who told the kid to knock it off are bullying if she was special needs or LD and unable to modify her behavior( and they may not have been privy to that info) or if she was a slow learner and speaking up to obtain help.

 

 

Hmm, I don't know that I'd agree with that, especially if they weren't privy to that information.  Attempting to stop things that are making it hard for them to learn is not bullying.  Now, if they were told that the child had special needs and continued to bug her about it, especially in a mean way, then it could cross over into bullying.  But bullying often has multiple aspects.  How do the kids treat this kid otherwise?  Are they overall kind, or at least, not mean/rude to her?  Is she generally included and tolerated when she's not doing the offensive behavior?  Is their goal to put her down in some way, or is their goal simply to be able to work without interruption?  Maybe they're frustrated, and some dynamic in the classroom needs to be changed before things escalate (and I don't think the teacher is handling it well), and it's possible they need some lessons in tolerance and acceptance and how they can adapt when another kid simply is unable to do so, but I'm not sure it's quite bullying.

 

I do agree with your other statement, that kids can bully others in order to keep them from participating.  This scenario doesn't necessarily seem, IMO, to be quite that.

[Paige]

IMO, it is repeated and targeted meanness. One incident is a bad day, but it becomes bullying when it becomes a pattern. I think bullying and being an obnoxious kid is less often confused than bullying and assault or criminal threatening. I don't understand why behavior that would get me arrested is ok for kids. Bullying, IMO, is rather low grade and annoying things for which adults would not press charges against another adult. Adults typically don't experience as much bullying because we are rarely forced to interact with those we don't like. If someone calls us stupid all day, we avoid them. If someone punches me or threatens to kill me, I'll call the police.

 

Kids hitting kids, attacking kids, or verbally threatening serious assaults should be charged with crimes and not minimized as simply being bullies.

[Alice]

I think the article that Farrar linked is spot-on. I think of bullying as being a pattern of behavior that involves one or more kids targeting another kid and also involves an imbalance of power.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Alice

[Farrar]

The children who told the kid to knock it off are bullying if she was special needs or LD and unable to modify her behavior( and they may not have been privy to that info) or if she was a slow learner and speaking up to obtain help.

 

I have requested my child not be placed with certain students, because they do bully in order to be constant center of attention and prevent others from gaining points for contributing to the discussion.

 

I disagree with this. It may have been mean of them depending on how it played out and the teacher should be the one who should be doing any redirecting or disciplining, but if that was all they did - one time tell her not to do something. It doesn't matter if she's special needs. A single instance of rude or mean behavior is not bullying no matter what her learning issues are.

[Pam in CT]

re "rude" vs. "mean" vs. "bullying"

 

This piece - "Rude vs. Mean vs. Bullying" is one that I refer to for clarification. I think it's a pretty solid piece, written by a bullying expert:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/signe-whitson/bullying_b_2188819.html

 

Thanks for this.  The distinction made between "rude" vs. "mean" -- which seems to hinge on inadvertent vs intentional acts -- does not strike me as particularly helpful, or as actionable in an educational environment, since no one really knows anyone else's intent.  But OTOH I'm also not sure that matters, since the appropriate response from an adult for a single instance of "rudeness" vs "mean-ness" is probably pretty similar.

 

I do think the working definition of bullying usefully specifies two other elements (outside "intent") that are both helpful, and observable / practical:

 

Experts agree that bullying entails three key elements: an intent to harm, a power imbalance and repeated acts or threats of aggressive behavior. Kids who bully say or do something intentionally hurtful to others and they keep doing it, with no sense of regret or remorse — even when targets of bullying show or express their hurt or tell the aggressors to stop.

 

[amy g.]

I did not say that I would characterize it as bullying because we just don't have enough information to know.

 

I said that for my *own* children it would not be behavior I consider acceptable.

 

When my kids come to me complaining about another kid's behavior, the discussion always starts with, "Do you have any idea how privileged you are?"

 

The list starts with being born to white college graduates continues with unmedicated birth (so not a single brain cell was damaged) and extended breastfeeding, homemade baby food ( so you were not exposed to HFCS and preservatives) and private lessons and camps, practically every book and educational toy available, intact family, stay at home parent, organic food, 3 meals a day cooked at home ....."Do you have any idea how many people in the world have a life like that?"

 

I expect better from my kids than "Cut it out."

 

There was a boy in my oldest's classes who seemed to have many characteristics of a person on the spectrum. He was raised in a patriarchal family, sent to boarding school, really never taught how to present his opinions in a way that classmates could hear them.

 

You might call him attention seeking or disruptive.

 

Other students did exclude him. "Sorry, our car if full, you can't ride with us."'when it was obvious there was plenty of room for him.

 

Even though all of his opinions and behavior represented what my daughter hates in the world, it hurt her heart to see him disrespected.

 

She didn't confront her classmates, but used her position as a natural leader to change how he was perceived and treated.

 

He had particular trouble with group projects, so she started emailing teachers requesting that she always be placed in his group. Once he was, she insisted that meetings took place around his work schedule and that the group went along with his plans for the project. He would have an idea, and Dd would make sure that the finished project was true to his idea, but also knocked it out of the park.

 

The other kids started noticing. Their behavior towards him changed.

 

My whole family, including out of town siblings, attended his graduation research project. We invited him to lunch with our family, asked him about his hopes and future plans.

 

There is a Netflix series being filmed a few blocks from my house called 13 reasons why.

 

My question is what can we do to be that one reason why NOT.

Edited August 15, 2016 by amy g.

[happymom4]

Bullying (in my eyes) - Intentionally and continually engaging in behavior (physical or verbal) with the goal of hurting another person.  The "continually" part is important because making a mean comment once just makes someone a jerk not a bully.  Now if that person makes it a habit of doing it each day or week, then yeah, they are a bully.

[Farrar]

re "rude" vs. "mean" vs. "bullying"

 

 

Thanks for this.  The distinction made between "rude" vs. "mean" -- which seems to hinge on inadvertent vs intentional acts -- does not strike me as particularly helpful, or as actionable in an educational environment, since no one really knows anyone else's intent.  But OTOH I'm also not sure that matters, since the appropriate response from an adult for a single instance of "rudeness" vs "mean-ness" is probably pretty similar.

 

I do think the working definition of bullying usefully specifies two other elements (outside "intent") that are both helpful, and observable / practical:

 

Oh, I don't know... I mean, it's often hard to know and both need a response, but I think a good adult at least tries to get to the root of whether something was unintentional rudeness or was purposeful meanness, especially if it happens a few times. I've seen the former from my kids a lot over the years, the latter just a few times. But knowing my kids well, it wasn't so hard to figure out which it was.

 

I feel like a lot of people seem to assume that other kids' (as in, not their own) motives are usually cruel. My experience has been that for most kids - especially before about age 10 or so - kids are just egotistical, thoughtless jerks way more often than they're intentionally cruel. And knowing that helps address behavior better.

[Guest]

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Edited August 19, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[SunshineMom]

I don't work in the public schools however it seems it would be difficult for teachers not to notice their students who were being bullied or those doing the bullying. Group dynamics and children's behaviors are pretty easy to detect. Maybe more school counselors are needed, teachers shouldn't have to be counselors too.

[Mergath]

In my mind, it's the intentional causing of physical or emotional harm for no reason other than being a jackass. 

 

Part of the reason nothing was ever done when I was bullied was because my parents and the school authorities always brushed it off as "kids being kids." We've normalized some kinds of bullying over the last few decades, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work to make things better now. Even if one kid teasing another for being weird is seen as "normal kid behavior," we should try to teach our kids so it ISN'T normal. 

 

We have such skewed ideas of what's normal for kids. If a strange adult came up to me at a playground and pushed me down, everyone would be horrified and someone might call the police. When one kid pushes another kid down, everyone shrugs and says they're just being kids. If my dh tells me, "You're stupid and everyone hates you," it's emotional abuse. When one kid says that to another, people throw their hands up and say, "What are you gonna do?"

 

Instead of saving the word "bullying" for only the most severe cases, I think we all need to adjust our expectations for what's okay and have a zero-tolerance policy for kids hurting each other like we do with adults.

[SKL]

I feel for it to be bullying there has to be some intention of controlling a person - whether getting them to do something, to avoid things out of fear, to give in to things they don't agree with.

 

I think it is pretty common within certain age ranges, but I think the term is overused at younger ages, and often used as a cop-out for the supposedly "bullied" kid's problems.

[MistyMountain]

Bullying is repeated verbal taunts that shame a kid and make them feel bad or repeated physical aggression. I think problems should be nipped in the bud early even if it is not bullying yet. I like when schools try to figure out what is going on and handle things by talking to the kids and telling all the kids that being mean is unacceptable. A low income school here with lots of problems started a program with teaching emotional intelligence and talking to them to figure out what was bothering them and it went well. You cannot ever get perfection with kids but you can make school a less hostile environment. You do not have to chalk meaness up to kids being kids and not even start to try to deal with it until it is happening on a daily basis.

Edited August 16, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Mergath]

I feel for it to be bullying there has to be some intention of controlling a person - whether getting them to do something, to avoid things out of fear, to give in to things they don't agree with.

 

I think it is pretty common within certain age ranges, but I think the term is overused at younger ages, and often used as a cop-out for the supposedly "bullied" kid's problems.

 

The people who tormented me about my seizures (among other things) when I was a teen weren't trying to control me. They just enjoyed my suffering. I doubt anyone would say that wasn't bullying, though.

[gstharr]

Deliberate exclusion, even if it doesn't appear that way (and girls can be slick and deceptive, so that adults don't always get what's going on).  Always leaving the same child last to be picked for gym teams (but haha, those same kids picked me first every time we had to do a group project).  Starting the Blond Haired Girls Club.  (Or whatever -- I made that one up.)  Purposely flaunting parties that obviously included all but one or a couple of kids.  You had a sleepover with five of your closest gal pals, out of a class of 20 girls?  Okay, not that big of a deal if the others overhear about it, if you're not deliberately flaunting it; you're not required to be best friends with every kid in the class.  You had a sleepover with 17 of the girls and made a huge show of talking about it in front of the two who weren't invited?  That's being a bully, IMO.  (ETA: These things aren't necessarily bullying; they can just be rude and mean.  When they're parts of an ongoing dynamic, especially targeted at specific other kids, then they're bullying behaviors.)

 

 

i just resolved this last semester with my then 5th grader. He attended one of the excellent private schools in our area. Walk on campus, the kids are so polite, never any commotion.  Did not have any clue that my son was having problems., until I realized his birthday/xmas  gift money was missing.  He had started to giving it to some kids in school.    Turns out, that a few of  "rich"  kids  ( as in driven to school in Bentleys and Maserattis) very quietly controlled the social dynamics of his grade.  They picked the teams that played at recessed,  picked each other to pair for team projects,  did not attend his parties, and told the other kids who to talk to. Basically they locked arms to bar him from entering  their chosen circle.   My son was giving money to the kids on the  fringe of this group--"the ones closest to liking him."  The school handled it very well when brought to their attention.  Things didchange  immediately change. .  But I am still upset that I did not realize it sooner.  In retrospect, the problem had been going on for years, and came to a head with the missing money. My son just did not understand that he was being quietly bullied, so he could not seek help sooner.

 

[gardenmom5]

 

The reason I ask is that if the word is overused, it loses some of its power. I think when people use the word bullying when behavior falls within the realm of normal childish behavior, it diminishes the real cases of bullying and causes victims not to be believed when they report.

 

 

uh - change the wording.  just because it's "normal" doesn't mean it isn't harmful/bullying to another child.   a lot of bullying used to be written off as "that's just kids". boys will be boys", it's just teasing, etc.

 

I've been having issues with my thyroid, and my former dr calling my numbers "normal", when they weren't even in the "good" range (let alone optimal. let alone me being functional) has me pretty sensitive to the frequently inappropriate use of the word "normal".

[gardenmom5]

Well, in my opinion, telling her to knock it off was the job of the adults in charge. If my child had said that to a classmate, I would not like it at all, and she would absolutely need to apologize.

 

I agree it was the job of the adults in charge - and they weren't doing their job.  but if the other child was disrupting the rest of the class from doing their work, they were within their rights to tell her to knock it off so they could do their own school work.  we might talk about techniques and "diplomatic" methods of getting her to knock it off - but that wasn't bullying.

 

Wow, I really disagree with that.  I agree kids could have let the teacher handle it, but it was also affecting them directly by disrupting the class, and it was appropriate to say something.

 

this.

Verbal or physical abuse of another who is targeted for exclusion.

 

The kid who is kicked every time someone walks by to use the pencil sharpener or passes him in gym class.

 

The kid who is shunned, verbally abused or physically abused because he is too smart, too dumb, from the area, not from the area, wears the wrong clothes, wears the right clothes, right religion, wrong religion, etc etc.

 

In my day, I was asked to help two bullied girls. One had moved into my school, but was so depressed she wouldnt speak to anyone. We were all nice kids, but it wasnt enough to help her heal. The other gal, at a different, larger school, was poverty and a slow learner...very bad life. I said some very pointed things to the lead gal bully, and she switched to bullying me. Actually attempting, as she was only verbal and nothing she said would make me feel bad...I dont hold much for hypocrites, and I wore her friends down asking how they reconciled their religion with their behavior.

 

These days, the bullies are all physical. I would move my child if the school wasnt willing to help. Broken bones, teeth, and serious damage to expensive possessions ( think music instruments, shoes, jeans) are the norm, and its usually a kid who thinks his parents will back them up. The judge here orders restitution, so its calmed a lot as the medical costs have increased.

 

in the workplace - this can get a person fired from their job, even if it's "only verbal". it has gotten companies sued if they don't stop it.   even if it's "just words" in a school setting, it shouldn't' be tolerated.

my impression was most teachers just don't know what to do, or have the mental energy "to do".  they don't have good control in their classrooms.

but if it's physical - parents can (and most definitely should at times) file police reports.  especially broken bones or teeth etc.

 

IMO, it is repeated and targeted meanness. One incident is a bad day, but it becomes bullying when it becomes a pattern. I think bullying and being an obnoxious kid is less often confused than bullying and assault or criminal threatening. I don't understand why behavior that would get me arrested is ok for kids. Bullying, IMO, is rather low grade and annoying things for which adults would not press charges against another adult. Adults typically don't experience as much bullying because we are rarely forced to interact with those we don't like. If someone calls us stupid all day, we avoid them. If someone punches me or threatens to kill me, I'll call the police.

 

Kids hitting kids, attacking kids, or verbally threatening serious assaults should be charged with crimes and not minimized as simply being bullies.

 

this.

 

The people who tormented me about my seizures (among other things) when I was a teen weren't trying to control me. They just enjoyed my suffering. I doubt anyone would say that wasn't bullying, though.

it's the one thing I would add to the quote from the rude vs mean vs bullying.     they. think. it. is. fun.      they get off on the discomfort of their victim.  it makes them feel powerful.  if you cry - they score more points.  if other's outside their cirlce agree with them/join in - it's more points for them in their sick game.  if they can get the teacher to agree (WHICH HAPPENS) . . . well, they just won the trophy in their sick game.

 

I did confront one set of bullies (they really weren't that invested in their behavior) - they defended themselves that they were 'just joking/having fun' etc.  they did knock it off after that (re: they weren't invested).  - but they thought it was funny.

 

a bully who is truly invested  in their behavior - won't back down (even if confronted by adults) unless they believe they will be the one mocked and scorned by everyone in the school.  (think of the story of the guy who noticed his chief bully was afraid of heights - so  in the cafeteria - in front of everyone - he challenged him to a fight.  on the roof of the gym.  bully never bothered him again.)

 

 

eta: spelling . . sheesh.

Edited August 17, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Guest]

..

Edited August 19, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[gardenmom5]

I have to disagree. Fun is not necessarily a part of it. The gal bully in my high school that bullied the poverty gal was not motivated by fun. She had a world she wanted, and this creature made that world unachievable, so all of her bullying was to exclude so she could have that world. She could have followed her religious instruction and bought this gal clothing instead of belittling what her parents accepted from charity for ex. Instead we all had to hear her spew, and every bit of it over things that she, a rich gal, could control in her life, but things that this poverty gal could not. No fun involved at all. The target was elimination, but she had had enough religious instruction that she didnt take it physical.

 

 

this is interesting to me.  you "had to hear her spew".  so, what did you do?  step in and tell her to knock it off?  stand by and listen to her belittle and demean this girl? go somewhere else so you didn't have "to hear her spew"​?

 

 

different bullies have different motivations and choose according to those motivations - victims always are perceived to having less power than themselves.

[SKL]

Deliberate exclusion, even if it doesn't appear that way (and girls can be slick and deceptive, so that adults don't always get what's going on).  Always leaving the same child last to be picked for gym teams (but haha, those same kids picked me first every time we had to do a group project).  Starting the Blond Haired Girls Club.  (Or whatever -- I made that one up.)  Purposely flaunting parties that obviously included all but one or a couple of kids.  You had a sleepover with five of your closest gal pals, out of a class of 20 girls?  Okay, not that big of a deal if the others overhear about it, if you're not deliberately flaunting it; you're not required to be best friends with every kid in the class.  You had a sleepover with 17 of the girls and made a huge show of talking about it in front of the two who weren't invited?  That's being a bully, IMO.  (ETA: These things aren't necessarily bullying; they can just be rude and mean.  When they're parts of an ongoing dynamic, especially targeted at specific other kids, then they're bullying behaviors.)

 

I was unpopular as a kid.  People even called me a couple of standard names.  But I never thought of that as bullying.  I don't think being unpopular equals being bullied.

 

I figured I was unpopular because I didn't have much in common with the others.  I was more working-class, had ugly hair, wore hand-me-downs, didn't do the same kinds of leisure things they did.  I had a working mom (rare in those days) so we didn't reach out socially as much.  I learned very fast and was never on their same wavelength intellectually.  And I was an introvert.  Oh well.  It was kind of sad but I don't think it was really destructive, and I never felt afraid with those kids.  (Later, in a different school, I was actually bullied to the point where I was afraid to go to school.)

[Guest]

..

Edited August 19, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[gardenmom5]

did you read previous post? I intervened and made myself a target. Then I wore Ms. Bully's friends down with the question of how they reconciled their behavior with their religion. I verbally handled the attempts at bullying me. The friends quickly stopped attacking the victim and never started attacking me. Ms. Bully ended up a bit frustrated, but she was shut down quickly from that vocation..it was getting harder anyway as they didnt have many classes together as the college prep stream seperated from gen ed. Understand I was a transfer student...from what I was able to tell, the abuse had been going on for years under the nun's radar at their grade school. I got involved because the victim gave me the eye look indicating help would be appreciated during pm bus boarding time. Hopefully those details will help you pay it forward. For further research, look up the concept of the 'smile quotient'.

 

previous posts tend to run together, as opposed to being distinguished.

 

what do you mean by "hopefully those details will help you pay it forward?"  that sounds like you think bullying, how to deal with bullies, and it's ramifications is merely an academic discussion to me.

 

[Anne in CA]

IMO, bullying is any behavior meant to make someone else feel inferior and elevate the person dishing out bullying.

[VeteranMom]

Bullying to me- Choosing an unflattering nickname for a victim and spreading it around school, putting tacks on a victims chair, encouraging others to treat a person cruelly, turning a victim into a social outcast (ostracizing a person), etc.  In my experience, girls and boys can bully in different ways.  Boys seem to be very direct with what they do.  Girls are very indirect and do things behind the scenes.  I experienced bullying when growing up.  I have no tolerance for it.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

The list starts with being born to white college graduates continues with unmedicated birth (so not a single brain cell was damaged) and extended breastfeeding, homemade baby food ( so you were not exposed to HFCS and preservatives) and private lessons and camps, practically every book and educational toy available, intact family, stay at home parent, organic food, 3 meals a day cooked at home ....."Do you have any idea how many people in the world have a life like that?"

 

No offense, but if you really say that to your kids you are taking it to a sanctimommy level.

[Ananda]

For me bullying is a tricky thing to define.  I don't really feel I was bullied in school.  I didn't think I was bullied at the time; I don't remember specific instances of being bullied.  But looking back, I think I was bullied and was too social clueless to notice.  I know the other kids didn't like me, I was an outsider.  Knowing now that girls bully by social games & exclusion I think it was likely I was bullied.  The sticky wicket for me is that I didn't feel excluded.  I felt I didn't fit in.  I honestly think I withdrew from others, I didn't really want to be included.  I had few friends, until 8th grade.  My childhood friends were all relentlessly bullied.  I often stood up for them, and protected them.  Surely they retaliated?  I was typically one of the leftover kids when we had to pick groups.  This didn't bother me because I assumed they wanted to be with their friends.

 

Despite being oblivious to possible bullying, I do think I bear the scars of a childhood of being "other".  I have made no friends since college.  I am uncomfortable when participating in parent or family activities.  I politely respond when people are talking to me, but they usually carry the conversation.  I feel like I have no idea what other mothers are interested in.  My kids are quirky, so we don't even have much in common there.  I remember distinctly when some parents were discussing their toddlers tantrums.  I know something about this, so I decided to participate.  I said something about "You know when kids get so upset that they just let out a silent scream until they pass out?"  Dead silence and shock from everyone.  Then someone said, "No, did you call 911?"  In that moment I realized that what I had assumed was a common parent experience, wasn't.  Normal people would be able to shake that off, and continue a conversation.  I felt like I was a freak. 

 

Even here I am a lurker, because I don't feel like I have anything to contribute.  I'm not one of the cool kids, and the losers aren't allowed to speak.  They can watch from the sidelines as long as they don't have a "staring problem."  See.  I must have been bullied.

 

 

[Scarlett]

For me bullying is a tricky thing to define. I don't really feel I was bullied in school. I didn't think I was bullied at the time; I don't remember specific instances of being bullied. But looking back, I think I was bullied and was too social clueless to notice. I know the other kids didn't like me, I was an outsider. Knowing now that girls bully by social games & exclusion I think it was likely I was bullied. The sticky wicket for me is that I didn't feel excluded. I felt I didn't fit in. I honestly think I withdrew from others, I didn't really want to be included. I had few friends, until 8th grade. My childhood friends were all relentlessly bullied. I often stood up for them, and protected them. Surely they retaliated? I was typically one of the leftover kids when we had to pick groups. This didn't bother me because I assumed they wanted to be with their friends.

 

Despite being oblivious to possible bullying, I do think I bear the scars of a childhood of being "other". I have made no friends since college. I am uncomfortable when participating in parent or family activities. I politely respond when people are talking to me, but they usually carry the conversation. I feel like I have no idea what other mothers are interested in. My kids are quirky, so we don't even have much in common there. I remember distinctly when some parents were discussing their toddlers tantrums. I know something about this, so I decided to participate. I said something about "You know when kids get so upset that they just let out a silent scream until they pass out?" Dead silence and shock from everyone. Then someone said, "No, did you call 911?" In that moment I realized that what I had assumed was a common parent experience, wasn't. Normal people would be able to shake that off, and continue a conversation. I felt like I was a freak.

 

Even here I am a lurker, because I don't feel like I have anything to contribute. I'm not one of the cool kids, and the losers aren't allowed to speak. They can watch from the sidelines as long as they don't have a "staring problem." See. I must have been bullied.

 

(((Hugs)))))

[kiwik]

I think it is intention. If you say something mean in the heat of the moment then apologise sincerely and don't do it again it is not bullying. If you say the mean thing with the intention on hurting and/or reoeatedly knowing it is hurtful then it is bullying. I was bullied as a kid and was told to ignore, appease or feel sympathy for the bully. But really the fact that they have an awful life does not mean that I should have to accept poor treatment and feeling sympathy should not mean acting as a punching bag.

 

The telling her to knock it off is not bullying but if she is unaware of how her behavior is perceived she may have felt the other kids were hanging up on her.

Edited August 19, 2016 by kiwik

[Scarlett]

In my mind, it's the intentional causing of physical or emotional harm for no reason other than being a jackass.

 

Part of the reason nothing was ever done when I was bullied was because my parents and the school authorities always brushed it off as "kids being kids." We've normalized some kinds of bullying over the last few decades, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work to make things better now. Even if one kid teasing another for being weird is seen as "normal kid behavior," we should try to teach our kids so it ISN'T normal.

 

We have such skewed ideas of what's normal for kids. If a strange adult came up to me at a playground and pushed me down, everyone would be horrified and someone might call the police. When one kid pushes another kid down, everyone shrugs and says they're just being kids. If my dh tells me, "You're stupid and everyone hates you," it's emotional abuse. When one kid says that to another, people throw their hands up and say, "What are you gonna do?"

 

Instead of saving the word "bullying" for only the most severe cases, I think we all need to adjust our expectations for what's okay and have a zero-tolerance policy for kids hurting each other like we do with adults.

Like times 100. I have never been able to understand bullying. I did not tolerate it as a by stander and I didn't want my son in that environment.