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At a loss on math for kid w/ dysgraphia


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I've tried so many math programs for my DS. He's 10, has dysgraphia and just finished 4th grade. The issue is that he is talented at mathematics, but due to his dysgraphia and possibly mild dyslexia, he has trouble showing it on paper. For example, we'll be with grandma and she'll say "Oh, I remember that in 1963 blah blah ... " and DS can instantly say "so 53 years ago." Or we'll get the bill and while I'm still fumbling to sort out what the % tip should be, he tells me. He's got very good number sens, BUT only orally and calculating in his head. If he sees a math problem written that goes 2,016-1,963= ?  he is stumped. If I read him the problem and he has to write it down and solve it step by step, he's stumped, including forgetting where to put the commas and how to line it up.

 

If his math talents were at the truly genius level, then I wouldn't care. But they are not. His advanced capacity for mental math worked great for basic arithmetic, but we've hit a roadblock now that we're working with math problems that involve more numbers than he can hold in his head and multi-step problems. And, despite his good number sense, he struggles with memorization, so the multiplication table is not memorized yet (he has to calculate it every single time - though he does it quickly).

 

His ability to understand math CONCEPTS is wonderful. He *gets* fractions, decimals, even some pre-algebra concepts (like exponents, ratios, etc). But as the numbers get big or multi-step, it gets harder to calculate them in his head ... and he can't solve even the most basic math problems on paper. Neither he nor I are ready to throw in the towel and decide he's just "not good at math," because, well, he actually is! But I can't find the math curriculum that suits this child. I have an easy time explaining concepts to him, but helping him remember that the numbers line up this or that way, that the commas go here, or the ways to go around a multi-step problem (as examples) is just stumping me. He won't be able to go forward in mathematics from this point on if he can't grasp these basics.

 

Generally, multi-sensory math is recommended for these kids and we've done a lot of that. But that's generally helpful with "concept," what I need is something that helps me help him make the leap into how to perform actual calculations and formulas. He has no trouble with concept. Hope that makes sense.

 

I'd love some guidance or BTDT. Thanks (and sorry so long).

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I am eagerly watching this thread because I am in a similar situation.  Right now, my son is younger than yours and so we are still able to cope with oral answers often.  Not sure if it is helpful, but for some reason my son finds it helpful to write his work on a large dry erase board.  We have also used number magnets to represent the problems.  That has been super helpful.  However, I suspect that some of his problem stems from fine motor issues and that he is not truly dysgraphic.  

 

 

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Dd has dysgraphia and is the same as what you described! She can do some impressive math in her head, although not necessarily quickly because nothing is memorized so she is calculating every aspect of multi-step problems- but , like I said, can do it in her head. On paper, she was easily distracted, slow and very unorganized.

 

Dd was tested and diagnosed at 12. When given a time trial of simple addition and simple multiplication she tested far slower than her age counterparts (3 grades behind). But, her conceptual understanding is phenomenal and tested 4 grades ahead.

 

We used singapore math (K through 3rd) and then Math Mammoth (4th -6th) but with adaptation. We used a lot of manipulatives both purchased and home-made. We still use large graph paper to keep numbers organized. The biggest help, though, is that she knows that written work will be limited if she gets the problems correct. What we did/do- I walk her through the concept and implementation, and we do a lot of examples together. When I think she has it. I have her do a problem, walking me through it. Then I assign her work. Usually, one easy problem, one more complex, and then three of the hardest problems (all on the new concept). If she gets them all correct. Then she's done. If she misses the easy one, I know that we need more work. If she misses a hard one, I replace it with two. Dd would always prefer a few really challenging problems to a lot of easier problems.

 

Every other day we added in a few review problems. Ideally, I prefer that the hard problems previously mentioned contain math steps of previously learned concepst. It all comes down to being very involved so that you can see quickly if they are 'getting it' or not. The worst thing was when dd would spend 40 minutes to complete 15 problems just to discover she made the same mistake in most of them.  But because I assigned and walked away, all that time and effort was wasted. Once I figured this out, our lives were so much easier. I assign the 5 problems, I usually watch the first and then can walk away to give her the space to finish. If she missed something, we don't feel like so much time and effort was wasted and there is less frustration for her. 

 

I know this sounds like very little math, but we do a lot of the heavy lifting together. She was so much more focused and motivated when she knew what she had to accomplish - just 5 new-concept problems. 

 

Starting last year, we increased the frequency of review. Now, it is 1 easier and 4 hardest of new-concept and 5 review problems. These have to be fully written out with every step shown. We have to test every year, and she continues to test in the 90th+ percentile.

 

If your ds realizes that he will only have to 5 problems then he will likely be more motivated and focused and generally more effective. Try using the graph paper for organization, and keep modeling the steps while verbalizing and writing them. We have a large white board for this. Have him talk you through the steps while you write. This step is invaluable because you free up their brain to just focus on the steps and not on the writing/organizing. 

 

The bottom line for us: there was no substitute for my presence in the process. 

 

 

ETA: don't get discouraged. He may need to see you write out the steps a hundred time before he can do it solo from start to finish. But, when you can connect the steps he verbalized to you (as you wrote), then when he begins to write it himself and gets stumped, you can prompt him to re-verbalize and then write a bit at a time. It seems tedious, but it will work.

Edited by jewellsmommy
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My DC don't have dysgraphia, but I am wondering if something we use would work for your Ds. We have multiple white boards and dry erase markers in colors. Writing on a whiteboard takes so much less effort than writing on paper. And you can see what you've written without peering at illegible chicken scratches. Doing parts of a problem in different colors helps too. We also use transparent write-on pockets that I can slip a template into. (We get ours from Nasco, but they are available on Amazon, etc.)

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All great suggestions above but in thinking long term have you had evaluations?  He may need extra time on standardized tests for college entrance and other things.  Without an evaluation and confirmation of what his issues actually are he may not get extra time.  Also, there may be things going on that you are not aware of that could be addressed to help him.  For instance, my DS has dysgraphia but that is a very broad term.  What you need is an understanding of WHY your son has problems with written work.  There are many areas where the disconnect can occur.  Until you know the details you cannot effectively address the root cause or causes.

 

Does he know how to type? FWIW, there are math programs that allow you to type the math.  I don't have a list in front of me but you could try googling maybe...Perhaps typing, once he is proficient, would make it easier?  Also, have you tried him out using math programs where he isn't writing down the math?  An on-line program?

 

 

Have you had him evaluated for developmental vision issues?  Not a casual vision screening at the peds office but a developmental screening through a qualified developmental optometrist?  See if there is anyone in your area listed on this site: http://www.covd.org/

 

Developmental vision issues can actually be hard to tweak out without training.  My son has perfect visual acuity.  He passed every standard eye screening with flying colors.  He also has profound developmental vision issues that were affecting his ability to read and to line up numbers and a whole host of other things.  Until some lovely ladies on the Learning Challenges board suggested a COVD screening we were not actually addressing one of his big underlying reasons for the dysgraphia.  

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I have a 14 year old who we just learned has dysgraphia. She is the same way with math; she's mathy but loses it in the multistep/write it down part of figuring out the answer. 

 

We've used Life of Fred for the past couple of years because it is not problem heavy (5-10 problems daily). I had to sit with her for a long time in order to keep her on track.  

 

She's used the ModMath app on the iPad - it allows her to "type" her math problems. She's also done math problems with the paper turned sideways to form columns to keep numbers lined up. She uses a lot of mnemonics to keep the steps straight in her head; she's always done it naturally. A lot of the times, she would tell me her mnemonic and what it stood for and I would write the words at the top since they get jumbled writing the words. She's used graph paper, but her handwriting didn't fit in the squares well. The white board works well - she did a lot of the algebra problems on the white board.

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For my dysgraphic son, we have done well with Singapore math because it has a few well chosen problems per lesson and the workbook has a generous amount of space for writing. I will have him tell me what to do next for the textbook problems or we work them out on our chalkboard. Then he does the workbook on his own. Singapore also teaches mental math for advanced problems, which is great for dysgraphics.

 

When problems require "lining up" I transfer the problems to graph paper or I will use different colored highlighters to make columns directly on the workbook page.

 

For fact practice, we us xtramath.com or some of the games on abcya.com.

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All great suggestions above but in thinking long term have you had evaluations?  He may need extra time on standardized tests for college entrance and other things.  Without an evaluation and confirmation of what his issues actually are he may not get extra time.  Also, there may be things going on that you are not aware of that could be addressed to help him.  For instance, my DS has dysgraphia but that is a very broad term.  What you need is an understanding of WHY your son has problems with written work.  There are many areas where the disconnect can occur.  Until you know the details you cannot effectively address the root cause or causes.

 

Does he know how to type? FWIW, there are math programs that allow you to type the math.  I don't have a list in front of me but you could try googling maybe...Perhaps typing, once he is proficient, would make it easier?  Also, have you tried him out using math programs where he isn't writing down the math?  An on-line program?

 

 

Have you had him evaluated for developmental vision issues?  Not a casual vision screening at the peds office but a developmental screening through a qualified developmental optometrist?  See if there is anyone in your area listed on this site: http://www.covd.org/

 

Developmental vision issues can actually be hard to tweak out without training.  My son has perfect visual acuity.  He passed every standard eye screening with flying colors.  He also has profound developmental vision issues that were affecting his ability to read and to line up numbers and a whole host of other things.  Until some lovely ladies on the Learning Challenges board suggested a COVD screening we were not actually addressing one of his big underlying reasons for the dysgraphia.  

Can you elaborate on how to find out the details? My dd was evaluated by a neuropsych in March, and I just got the report last month. Basically, all it says is she has dysgraphia and I should contact the school district. Is that where I should go? I've never dealt with the school district for anything other than 1 preschool meeting when middle dd aged out of Early Intervention.

 

Her optomitrist (sp?) said that although dd's vision is funky (she has 1 near-sighted and 1 far-sighted eye), she didn't think it would affect dd's schoolwork. We do have a COVD local on that site that you linked. 

 

ETA: dd is 14 and starting high school, so I'm feeling immense pressure to figure this out soon.

Edited by beckyjo
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So much great feedback. We definitely use white boards, graph paper, mod math and online programs where possible. They all help a lot. I've definitely learned to not give him too many problems at a time and we do most math together. He does ok with IXL on his own as long as he can calculate in his head. But we both feel that the "on paper" meaning written form, whether white board or app, really needs some work.

 

He was evaluated when he was younger and got OT for a few years for various issues, including the writing issue but also motor skills. We plan to do an updated eval if he chooses to return o school or as we approach college, so that we can document for accommodations.

 

I'm intrigued by the idea of using mnemonics to remember the steps. Along with remembering HOW to line the numbers up (even with graph paper), our biggest other struggle is remembering all those steps. I'd be curious what kinds of mnemonics your DD uses, Becky. I wonder if there are any curriculum or resources out there that have this approach incorporated.

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So much great feedback. We definitely use white boards, graph paper, mod math and online programs where possible. They all help a lot. I've definitely learned to not give him too many problems at a time and we do most math together. He does ok with IXL on his own as long as he can calculate in his head. But we both feel that the "on paper" meaning written form, whether white board or app, really needs some work.

 

He was evaluated when he was younger and got OT for a few years for various issues, including the writing issue but also motor skills. We plan to do an updated eval if he chooses to return o school or as we approach college, so that we can document for accommodations.

 

I'm intrigued by the idea of using mnemonics to remember the steps. Along with remembering HOW to line the numbers up (even with graph paper), our biggest other struggle is remembering all those steps. I'd be curious what kinds of mnemonics your DD uses, Becky. I wonder if there are any curriculum or resources out there that have this approach incorporated.

 

She's just done it naturally. It's really strange since her spelling is horrible.

 

I remember when she was little and I was explaining how to do a word problem. You know, how to translate the words into an equation. She said "it's REAR". Read, Equation, Answer, Review. Later she used the "Does McDonald's Sell Burgers" for long division (divide, multiply, subtract, bring down). I think she got order of operations from Math Doesn't Suck: PEMDAS = cute little PANDAS.

 

She is a fantastic reader, and she has read many, many books on math over the years. I think she got several of her phrases/words from them. 

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Can you elaborate on how to find out the details? My dd was evaluated by a neuropsych in March, and I just got the report last month. Basically, all it says is she has dysgraphia and I should contact the school district. Is that where I should go? I've never dealt with the school district for anything other than 1 preschool meeting when middle dd aged out of Early Intervention.

 

Her optomitrist (sp?) said that although dd's vision is funky (she has 1 near-sighted and 1 far-sighted eye), she didn't think it would affect dd's schoolwork. We do have a COVD local on that site that you linked. 

 

ETA: dd is 14 and starting high school, so I'm feeling immense pressure to figure this out soon.

TBH, I am not impressed with your neuropsych.  A Dysgraphia label without the details doesn't actually tackle the why.  And is it getting ideas on paper or the physical act or both? Did they think it was more of a motor planning issue?  Neurological disconnect with forming and organizing ideas?  Something an OT/PT might help with?  I would not contact the school.  In all likelihood they won't know much more than to make recommendations for accommodations, not how to delve into the underlying cause or causes of the disconnect and how to help.

 

FWIW, with regards to dysgraphia, one of my nephews has profound dysgraphia (motor planning issues and a whole host of other things causing the PHYSICAL act of writing legibly to be nearly impossible but he does fine with getting ideas organized).  He types literally everything he can possibly type.  It took time and practice to get proficient enough to type well (the issues causing handwriting to be a problem also interfered with typing) but he got there.  He is now in college getting a 4.0 and will graduate early near the top of his class.  My husband has terrible handwriting as well but is a successful engineer.  He types a LOT and has me scribe for him when necessary.  Bad handwriting does not have to hold someone back as an adult.

 

Standard optometrists frequently have not had any training in assessing developmental vision issues.  If you can get an evaluation through a reputable COVD you might get better answers from that end.

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So much great feedback. We definitely use white boards, graph paper, mod math and online programs where possible. They all help a lot. I've definitely learned to not give him too many problems at a time and we do most math together. He does ok with IXL on his own as long as he can calculate in his head. But we both feel that the "on paper" meaning written form, whether white board or app, really needs some work.

 

He was evaluated when he was younger and got OT for a few years for various issues, including the writing issue but also motor skills. We plan to do an updated eval if he chooses to return o school or as we approach college, so that we can document for accommodations.

 

I'm intrigued by the idea of using mnemonics to remember the steps. Along with remembering HOW to line the numbers up (even with graph paper), our biggest other struggle is remembering all those steps. I'd be curious what kinds of mnemonics your DD uses, Becky. I wonder if there are any curriculum or resources out there that have this approach incorporated.

Could you help him set up a math notebook?  DD has one.  It has all the steps for various operations laid out on different pages, along with definitions of certain terms she sometimes forgets (and examples), plus a math reference chart when needed and a protractor, etc.  We also keep a graph notepad in there.  Pages are not cluttered and things are clearly labeled so it is easier to find what is needed.

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TBH, I am not impressed with your neuropsych.  A Dysgraphia label without the details doesn't actually tackle the why.  And is it getting ideas on paper or the physical act or both? Did they think it was more of a motor planning issue?  Neurological disconnect with forming and organizing ideas?  Something an OT/PT might help with?  I would not contact the school.  In all likelihood they won't know much more than to make recommendations for accommodations, not how to delve into the underlying cause or causes of the disconnect and how to help.

 

FWIW, with regards to dysgraphia, one of my nephews has profound dysgraphia (motor planning issues and a whole host of other things causing the PHYSICAL act of writing legibly to be nearly impossible but he does fine with getting ideas organized).  He types literally everything he can possibly type.  It took time and practice to get proficient enough to type well (the issues causing handwriting to be a problem also interfered with typing) but he got there.  He is now in college getting a 4.0 and will graduate early near the top of his class.  My husband has terrible handwriting as well but is a successful engineer.  He types a LOT and has me scribe for him when necessary.  Bad handwriting does not have to hold someone back as an adult.

 

Standard optometrists frequently have not had any training in assessing developmental vision issues.  If you can get an evaluation through a reputable COVD you might get better answers from that end.

TBH, I was less than impressed with the neuropsych. I just dug out the paperwork thinking I missed something. I assumed when he told me he was writing up the report that it would have more information; when I got it, and it didn't, I've just kind of filed it. Unfortunately, on today's review, I didn't miss anything. The conclusions read "XX's parents may wish to consult with the X School District regarding the development of an IEP for XX's learning disability (dysgraphia)." He doesn't use the word dysgraphia anywhere else in the report. The reason of giving her the label is she is approximately 3 grade levels behind in spelling/written language according to the WJ-III test. 

 

I definitely agree with the label, as writing is the one subject we have never been able to make progress with.  I didn't know if I was expecting too much from our neuropsych in that I was hoping it would give me a next step. The neuropsych acted like I was some smothering mother for asking more about the dysgraphia. 

 

My guess is DD has more problems in mentally organizing/coming up with ideas/planning out the paper, etc, than physically writing (although physically writing is difficult for her as well, but she can do it). 

 

I guess I will start with the COVD and go somewhere? from there. I tried to contact OT's but neither has returned my calls. Bleah.

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread there. 

Edited by beckyjo
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Could you help him set up a math notebook?  DD has one.  It has all the steps for various operations laid out on different pages, along with definitions of certain terms she sometimes forgets (and examples), plus a math reference chart when needed and a protractor, etc.

I found a nice "cheat sheet" that provides graphics on how to work various formulas, but I think it ultimately was too cluttered for him. I like your idea of a math notebook with the info spread out through different pages. We'll give that a try this year. Thanks. Then, of course, he'll have to USE IT lol.

 

We're working hard on the concept of "use your eyes" in various areas. For example, he'll put on his shoes but never look to see if they are on the right foot (even when he looks, he misses sometimes but much less). Getting dressed, etc ... he struggles with various tasks and some of it is motor and organizational, but some of it is literally not using his eyes to look at the task and plan it visually (like buttons on the wrong holes because he didn't LOOK). It took me the longest time to realize that this was a major issue for him. I don't even fully get that, how someone just doesn't LOOK at what their doing when they're struggling with it - seems like a resources one would automatically go to. So, along with the motor and organizational issues that are part of his dysgraphia, using his eyes to use the visual resources given to him right on the page is something we're working on.

 

p.s. we did see an opthamology specialist specializing in LD's and dysgraphia, but he found nothing visually wrong (though I didn't get a good feeling about the guy, so not 100% sure of his assessment - however, that's the only guy anywhere reasonably reachable to us). However, DS's reading is quite good and I don't think it's a visual issue per se, as much as an organizational issue, including remembering to engage your vision in problem-solving, if that makes sense. In any case, that only explains a small portion of the barrier, but one that I think is highly improvable.

Edited by Leftyplayer
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I found a nice "cheat sheet" that provides graphics on how to work various formulas, but I think it ultimately was too cluttered for him. I like your idea of a math notebook with the info spread out through different pages. We'll give that a try this year. Thanks. Then, of course, he'll have to USE IT lol.

 

We're working hard on the concept of "use your eyes" in various areas. For example, he'll put on his shoes but never look to see if they are on the right foot (even when he looks, he misses sometimes but much less). Getting dressed, etc ... he struggles with various tasks and some of it is motor and organizational, but some of it is literally not using his eyes to look at the task and plan it visually (like buttons on the wrong holes because he didn't LOOK). It took me the longest time to realize that this was a major issue for him. I don't even fully get that, how someone just doesn't LOOK at what their doing when they're struggling with it - seems like a resources one would automatically go to. So, along with the motor and organizational issues that are part of his dysgraphia, using his eyes to use the visual resources given to him right on the page is something we're working on.

 

p.s. we did see an opthamology specialist specializing in LD's and dysgraphia, but he found nothing visually wrong (though I didn't get a good feeling about the guy, so not 100% sure of his assessment - however, that's the only guy anywhere reasonably reachable to us). However, DS's reading is quite good and I don't think it's a visual issue per se, as much as an organizational issue, including remembering to engage your vision in problem-solving, if that makes sense. In any case, that only explains a small portion of the barrier, but one that I think is highly improvable.

Did they do a developmental screening?  Not visual acuity but ocular motor planning, convergence insufficiency, etc.?  

 

DH used to get so angry at DS because he seemed to see just fine but he didn't seem to LOOK at what he was doing.  He struggled in ways that didn't seem to be visually tied.  He passed every eye screening with flying colors.  And yet, he has profound developmental vision issues.  He can read after remediation (dyslexia) but his vision issues impact him in things like getting dressed, pouring liquids into small containers, etc.  Part of it is probably also motor planning issues but his vision difficulties have had a major impact.

 

Honestly, with what you are describing you might want to see if you could get him to a develpmental optometrist at some point for at least a screening.  http://www.covd.org/  See if there is anyone on this list you could get to.  We had to go 4 hours away but it was worth it.  The evaluation was so detailed and they were able to play back second by second what each of his eyes is doing.  They don't work together properly at all, even though his visual acuity is perfect.  That means when he is looking at a button to put it in the hole, for instance, one eye may be looking next to the button so he sees it out of his peripheral vision instead of head on and the other eye is looking off further to the side.  Not enough that just looking at him it would be noticeable, the shift really doesn't have to be much at all to be looking off of the target mark.  But it is enough that it makes it challenging to button or lace or anything of that nature.  We will be starting Vision Therapy to correct the issues.

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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With DS, we used less traditional math systems for problem solving because the methods have fewer steps to recall. Check out the latter half of Ronit Bird's book Overcoming Difficulties with Number.

 

You are going to need to get clever and explore speech to text options using ModMath. If your child hasn't started yet, get him typing so that he can input data with a keyboard. My DS used the math add on in Word last year to type Chem math problems. Some kids use LaTEX. You need to play around and determine what works best for your situation. Efofex has an Empower Program and they will proved their sw for free to students with a documented written expression SLD.

 

I also suggest you find a good ped pt that can work with your child. You want cross body, agility, and strength type exercises.

 

Last, start with the EF work now. Be as organized as possible and start introducing him to goal setting.

 

As far as lining math problems up, DS used a highlighter on graph paper to guide him.

Edited by Heathermomster
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Onestep is right.

Also good suggestions.

 

I would second what one-step said, evals will be the best, reducing stress, and getting ahead approach you can take.

 

Evals are important to know what's going on and how to efficiently teach.

You will need this for his entire school career and ...life.

I strongly recommend evaluation s.

It helps :)

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  • 2 years later...
On 8/4/2016 at 12:35 PM, Leftyplayer said:

I've tried so many math programs for my DS. He's 10, has dysgraphia and just finished 4th grade. The issue is that he is talented at mathematics, but due to his dysgraphia and possibly mild dyslexia, he has trouble showing it on paper. For example, we'll be with grandma and she'll say "Oh, I remember that in 1963 blah blah ... " and DS can instantly say "so 53 years ago." Or we'll get the bill and while I'm still fumbling to sort out what the % tip should be, he tells me. He's got very good number sens, BUT only orally and calculating in his head. If he sees a math problem written that goes 2,016-1,963= ?  he is stumped. If I read him the problem and he has to write it down and solve it step by step, he's stumped, including forgetting where to put the commas and how to line it up.

 

If his math talents were at the truly genius level, then I wouldn't care. But they are not. His advanced capacity for mental math worked great for basic arithmetic, but we've hit a roadblock now that we're working with math problems that involve more numbers than he can hold in his head and multi-step problems. And, despite his good number sense, he struggles with memorization, so the multiplication table is not memorized yet (he has to calculate it every single time - though he does it quickly).

 

His ability to understand math CONCEPTS is wonderful. He *gets* fractions, decimals, even some pre-algebra concepts (like exponents, ratios, etc). But as the numbers get big or multi-step, it gets harder to calculate them in his head ... and he can't solve even the most basic math problems on paper. Neither he nor I are ready to throw in the towel and decide he's just "not good at math," because, well, he actually is! But I can't find the math curriculum that suits this child. I have an easy time explaining concepts to him, but helping him remember that the numbers line up this or that way, that the commas go here, or the ways to go around a multi-step problem (as examples) is just stumping me. He won't be able to go forward in mathematics from this point on if he can't grasp these basics.

 

Generally, multi-sensory math is recommended for these kids and we've done a lot of that. But that's generally helpful with "concept," what I need is something that helps me help him make the leap into how to perform actual calculations and formulas. He has no trouble with concept. Hope that makes sense.

 

I'd love some guidance or BTDT. Thanks (and sorry so long).

My daughter was this way as well a couple of years ago....Rod and Staff has been such a blessing to her.  She would reverse 31 for 13 and carry the wrong number on paper, but not in her head.  

We used graph paper...which was recommended here and then we just went to the beginning of math one on one...and she is doing so well now.  Rod and Staff has worked for all of my kids...but I tutor the program like you have done with your son.  Understanding concepts is typically harder than doing algorithms so that should encourage you.  Rod and Staff does amazing at teaching algorithms.

Brenda

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On August 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, jewellsmommy said:

We still use large graph paper to keep numbers organized.

Are you buying this or printing it yourself?

Oops, I'm just realizing this is an old thread someone resurrected! Well, oldey but goody. :biggrin:

Edited by PeterPan
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