Legal Question about Age Difference Friendships

[Jean in Newcastle]

Can an employer who hires and works with young people ban platonic friendships between adults and minors?  For example, if an employed youth leader were to be genuine friends with a minor and it is a friendship that is vetted and ok'd by the parents, can the youth leader's employer ban the friendship?  There is absolutely no question that the friendships are anything but platonic.  The age difference is one of high school minor with college aged employees.  The college aged employees have no power of any kind over the minor.  And interactions are in groups of friends or through texting on their own time. 

[zoobie]

As long as the work rule doesn't violate some protected right, yes. Non-fraternizing rules aren't uncommon. How the employer would police the matter is questionable. (Honestly, the employer sounds controlling and crazy, and when someone shows you he's crazy, believe him and run...) Your state department of labor may have more specific guidance for you.

[Tess in the Burbs]

I don't see how you can ban friendships outside of work.  

 

When I waited tables I was a teen.  I worked with all ages.  I hung out with all ages after work.  Ok, yes, some supplied alcohol from time to time, but we all just hung out after work.  And sure, some teens would date older managers of adult age.  How in the world could you stop that?  In fact, I remember lots of weekends hanging out with managers who were married w/kids with all my other co-workers.  It wasn't uncommon for the entire night shift to go out together after a bad night.  Or have a cook out at someone's place.  Some work environments have a wide variety of ages... You can't say no friendships outside work.  For a lot of people that is their current circle of friends.  And most restaurants are very much still that way today.  

 

Is the manager worried about the teen being friends with older people?  If so, can't you just tell manager your teen can be friends with them b/c you as mom are ok with it?  point out that any business with teens is going to have teen become friends with older people working there.  duh. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

Is the manager worried about the teen being friends with older people?  If so, can't you just tell manager your teen can be friends with them b/c you as mom are ok with it?  point out that any business with teens is going to have teen become friends with older people working there.  duh. 

 

It is part of the employee handbook.  The issue has come up in meetings.  The manager doesn't care what I think as a parent. 

[regentrude]

In a regular employment situation (waiting tables, retail, fast food), probably not. 

You mention, however, that the employee in question is a youth leader. If the employer employs this person in his capacity of a youth leader, it seems reasonable that they would have rules about non-fraternization, because that can create conflicts of interest and can create problematic situations for both the leader and the younger student, as well as for others. 

 

The RA at DD's dorm, for example, had very strict rules about socializing with the students in the dorm. She was, for example, forbidden from giving presents to anybody, even if they were great friends and it was a birthday, and there were other things she was not allowed to do - because of her role as a supervisor. The rules are to protect both the students and the leader. I would imagine in your scenario, the prohibition has similar backgrounds.

 

ETA: It should be irrelevant for the employer whether the parents in one particular case approve of the friendship. The employer needs the policy to be universally applied to every employee. The employers need these rules in place to cover themselves against legal trouble and accusations. It is unfortunate that this would affect the friendship in a particular case, but it would not be prudent of the employer to grant exemptions,

Edited August 3, 2016 by regentrude

[Hyacinth]

Are the college-aged people leaders in the group? If so, there is an implied power and authority over the teens, and the employer is (unfortunately) probably wise to have non-fraternization policies.

[raptor_dad]

IANAL, but I think it depends.

 

A commercial for-profit group like McDonalds certainly can't ban friendships between equal rank employees and would have a very high bar to ban friendships between employees and customers.

 

For non-profits like Scouts and Churches it is more or a grey area. I don't think they can ban it as a condition of employment per se... but  they can require employees to follow church or scout youth protection guidelines in order to have contact with youth and thus be employed which has the same effect. 

 

Government entities are a sort of grey area between those two.

 

So... I would say generally they can't but in certain circumstances maybe... 

Edited August 3, 2016 by raptor_dad

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just to be clear, I'm asking for clarification of the legality surrounding this and am not asking for any exemptions for us. 

[Bluegoat]

I hate the idea of this, but I can totally see why an employer might want to do it, in terms of CYA. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Since they can fire you for whatever wacky reason they make up, I hardly think it matters.  It's not a protected right so I assume they can have that as a rule.

 

 

[raptor_dad]

Since they can fire you for whatever wacky reason they make up, I hardly think it matters.  It's not a protected right so I assume they can have that as a rule.

 

Freedom of Association, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association, has been broadly interpreted by the courts to be a protected right under both the 1st Amendment and the European Convention on Human Rights for both political and personal reasons, That doesn't mean it can't be abridged if their is a compelling interest otherwise... but it has a clear presumption of protection.

 

That being said, as you say at-will employment allows you to be be fired for any or no reason at all, as long as they don't explicitly state they are firing you for a protected reason. So it hardly matters.

[zoobie]

Freedom of Association, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_association, has been broadly interpreted by the courts to be a protected right under both the 1st Amendment and the European Convention on Human Rights for both political and personal reasons, That doesn't mean it can't be abridged if their is a compelling interest otherwise... but it has a clear presumption of protection.

 

That being said, as you say at-will employment allows you to be be fired for any or no reason at all, as long as they don't explicitly state they are firing you for a protected reason. So it hardly matters.

 

The non-fraternization rules (from my limited experience and thinking back to employment law courses) tend to get in trouble when they wander into protected class territory (E.g., fired for being white and dating a black person) or can be stretched to deter unionization. They're supposed to have a specific business purpose, but that's generally not a high hurdle. A labor lawyer in your jurisdiction will be up on the current state and federal laws and court decisions. (And that should be a free "do I have a case here" type consult.)

[ktgrok]

Is this about friendships between employees, or about friendships between an employee and a client/student/something? That makes a difference. 

 

Edited to add: For example, two professors at a college, or two teachers in a higschool, even if one is under age, should be able to be friends. But, a teacher and a student can't be friends. 

Edited August 3, 2016 by ktgrok

[Jean in Newcastle]

As long as the work rule doesn't violate some protected right, yes. Non-fraternizing rules aren't uncommon. How the employer would police the matter is questionable. (Honestly, the employer sounds controlling and crazy, and when someone shows you he's crazy, believe him and run...) Your state department of labor may have more specific guidance for you.

This post was especially helpful for me as it gave me the specific verbiage to look for in the employee handbook.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluegoat]

Is this about friendships between employees, or about friendships between an employee and a client/student/something? That makes a difference. 

 

Edited to add: For example, two professors at a college, or two teachers in a higschool, even if one is under age, should be able to be friends. But, a teacher and a student can't be friends. 

 

I wonder though - what obligations would be attached to hiring someone who is a minor, from the POV of the employer?  It seems to me that we might expect, especially in a business that employs a lot of minors, that we would expect some thought given to that, and that seems to happen in some industries.  (For example, mY dad's girlfriend recently worked as a sort of a caretaker for a minor appearing in a play, essentially she just had to be there with her during the play when she was not on stage, to make sure nothing untoward happened.)  For sure I can see if some parent thought their minor child was being exploited in some way by another employee, they might try and sue the pants off the employer.

 

I can easily see an employer telling managers that they need an open door policy while talking to minors in the office, or another person in the room.  And a friendship between employees could have similar problems - if they are hanging out after work, say, that could cause a lot of problems for the employer.  And it might not be easy for the employer to be keeping track of which parents approve and which are in the dark.

 

There seem to be a lot of barriers now, legal or social, around friendships between adults and minors, which is really rather sad.  But it makes sense to me that an employer would want to avoid something that could become a problem for him.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The complicating factor is that the employees in question work in a nursery.  My teen is in the teen program.  So same overarching association but NOT direct supervision of the teen.  So does the non-fraternization clause apply to just the children under them in the nursery or all the minors (however old they might be) in the entire organization? 

[ktgrok]

Ok, so the other person is an employee (paid?) working in the nursery of a youth program. The teen is a participant in the program, but in a different age group?

 

Hoenstly, I still think that as an employee, they can't fraternize with the participants. It's about balance of power. I can understand that. 

 

If this was a public school, the kindergarten teachers couldn't ethically become friends and hang out with the 10th graders at the school, even though they weren't teaching 10th grade, you know?

Edited August 3, 2016 by ktgrok

[Janeway]

Every time something has gone wrong, everyone else surrounding the situation was 100% certain it was purely platonic.

 

I am unsure why the employer has a say, so I am guessing the relationship spills over to work somehow. In which case, the employer is 100% in the right to decide what happens at work.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Every time something has gone wrong, everyone else surrounding the situation was 100% certain it was purely platonic.

 

I am unsure why the employer has a say, so I am guessing the relationship spills over to work somehow. In which case, the employer is 100% in the right to decide what happens at work.

Since the situation discussed in the meeting had to do with whether heterosexual same sex friendships could continue despite an age difference,  your guesses have no basis in reality and do not help.