Satanic after school clubs?

[luuknam]

Totally agree.  The real atheists just don't care - believe what you want to believe, and so will they.  It's all good. 

The anti-theists tend to be militant and offensive. 

 

Being anti-theist would not make someone a less real atheist. Obviously, not all atheists are anti-theist, but you could definitely be both.

[hornblower]

Also you don't get to define what 'real' atheist is. 

[TCB]

It seems to me that if people would visit the Satanic Temple site, or even read about the Satanic Temple on Wikipedia, they would have a better understanding of what it's all about and stop making uninformed assertions about what they assume it's about. But I could be wrong.

 

 

It's kind of like a lot of politicians  - you can't necessarily assume that what they say or write is the whole truth lol! The Satanic Temple may well be about what they say they are about, but I find it hard to believe that there is no element of provocation in their name choice.

[TranquilMind]

Almost everything in Mercy's post could be explained by very small earthquakes. Very small earthquakes often are not felt by people. There are over a million earthquakes every year (was reading the Horrible Geography book about earthquakes earlier this week).

 

Obviously, that doesn't explain the teddy bear incident, but there are possible explanations for that one. She says her kid was too young to have anything to do with anything, but she didn't say how old the kid was, so I may or may not agree with her on that point. Maybe her husband thinks it's funny to gaslight her. Or a 'friend'. Who knows? But it's certainly not something that's so out there that it requires a belief in something paranormal.

 

Lol.  Ok.  It was all earthquakes.

 

That's hilarious. 

 

[Spryte]

 

there are evangelical religious groups that seek to convert & keep all their people, that seek to inject their faith into all things. Many are militant & offensive.

 

I don't see why atheists cannot be evangelical & missionary as well.

Yep. There's no "real" atheist. Just like there's no "real" Xian.

[Haiku]

It's kind of like a lot of politicians  - you can't necessarily assume that what they say or write is the whole truth lol! The Satanic Temple may well be about what they say they are about, but I find it hard to believe that there is no element of provocation in their name choice.

 

The same is true of many other religious groups. We can either take people at face value or be suspicious of everyone.

 

But we are supposed to give Christianity and other mainstream religions the benefit of the doubt just because, well, we're supposed to.

 

Btw, the co-founder of the Satanic Temple has stated that he believes they can be both satirical and genuine. I agree with that.

[hornblower]

It's kind of like a lot of politicians  - you can't necessarily assume that what they say or write is the whole truth lol! The Satanic Temple may well be about what they say they are about, but I find it hard to believe that there is no element of provocation in their name choice.

 

Let's say there is: so what? 

 

Why can't they be provocative with their name? 

 

I find in many social movements, a variety of approaches and groups work better than just one approach. You'll get the polite letter writers, the silent witnesses, the ones who never talk about it but will answer questions, the ones who initiate conversations, the ones who challenge others' views,  the ones who leaflet, the ones who have t-shirts & bumper stickers, the ones who have rude t-shirts & bumper stickers, the ones who protest, the ones who protest disruptively (& block roads!), the ones who stage sit-ins, the ones who make a huge whole media spectacle... 

 

It takes many voices in many approaches to get people's attention, to get issues on the social change agenda, to get people thinking. It's what makes modern participatory democracies vibrant & healthy - the freedom of expression in all its many varied ways - including provoking & being rude. 

 

[luuknam]

Lol.  Ok.  It was all earthquakes.

 

That's hilarious.

 

Some areas have more earthquakes than others, and earthquakes can often kind of cluster, so I don't know what's so hilarious.

 

Plus, I'm not saying it *was* earthquakes. Just that it's one possible explanation. There might be other non-paranormal explanations.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

Why can't they be provocative with their name? 

 

 

 

 

Exactly.  So they are provocative with their name.  So what.  They can be provocative.  People can be mad about it and complain.  Whatever.  But at the end of the day it's not the name I think some people are most offended by.  They just don't like the idea of atheists.  Fine.  Fact is though there are atheists and some atheists like to form clubs. 

[Pam in CT]

Neat thread, covering a range of different neat subjects....

 

 

Re symbols not being subject to copyright, and how they really can mean quite different things to different people: 

...No one has to accept and automatically give credence or respect to other people's symbols. When we are asked to do so, told to do so, or told that we are being unkind if we don't, then we are also being told that opposing or divergent views are less valuable. I strenuously disagree with and object to that idea.

 

As a pretty strongly-affiliated member of a minority faith tradition, I am very conscious of this.

 

To take a different symbol with strong majority-faith associations, the Christian cross is strongly identified, by a great many Americans, with sacrifice and selfless love and compassion.  Which is terrific, and life-affirming, and I do not for a moment doubt helps lead many people to remember those principles and to try to live them in the name of their faith.

 

It is also true -- historically factual, document-able -- that the same symbol is also associated with the Crusade massacres, the Inquisition tortures, the Russian / Ukrainian / Slavic pogroms, the Nazi Iron Cross, the KKK's burning crosses, white supremacy groups today, etc etc.  Many Jews have *quite different,* visceral, associations with the cross, than compassion.  That those symbolic associations with the cross may be different from those of the majority faith tradition, does not make them wrong.

 

 

So too with Satan.  

Here's the thing: Christians don't own the concept of "Satan," any more (and I know this will be shocking to some) than they own the concept of "God."

 

For many years, I belonged to a religion that encouraged its members to define for themselves what the word "god/God" represents for them and to define for themselves what role, if any, Jesus has in their personal theology. I did a lot of work on those questions and developed my own understanding of those concepts. And, although I am no longer active in that denomination, my personal faith is still extremely important to me.

 

So, unless you want to tell me, to my "face," that I'm not allowed to follow the dictates of my own religion, then it's not fair for you to claim you get to define for everyone what "Satan" means.

 

This particular group has decided to recognize that name as applying to something -- or a set of somethings -- that is meaningful to them. <snip>

 

 

...

As far as Satan being evil incarnate, well ... there is the idea that Satan was simply branded evil because he wasn't willing to be bossed around and that his bad rep is a matter of propaganda.  ;) Since I am not Judeo-Christian, I have no opinion on the matter, but I do know that not everyone agrees with the idea that Satan is objectively evil.

 

 

And as yet another perspective on satan, the black/white, good/evil, alternate-source-of-influence conception of Satan that is culturally normative in the US is... not the normative teaching within Judaism.  There are multiple, and nuanced, perspectives (always!!!) within different strands of the tradition, but generally the idea (whether understood literally or metaphorically) is that satan (the Hebrew means something along the lines of "adversary") works within the divine will (as in the frame story in Job, in which the character Satan carries out God's instructions exactly, this far and no farther... sort of like a prosecutor within the judiciary system).

 

 

So, I agree with the several pp that no group is compelled to go with majority opinion on what Satan "means."  Nobody's got a copyright, on that.

 

 

That said, I also agree that the name was deliberately chosen to be provocative.

So..........call themselves the "critical thinking skills" club.  Or the philosophy club.  Or the "we like to think about stuff" club.  But...they didn't choose those names.  They chose a name specifically because it represents the evil persona of the folks who are promoting a Christian club.  I think they have very specific motives for choosing that specific name. 

 

I think the name is ridiculous.  It seems disingenuous to say, "Oh we just picked the name for people to take a look at this issue..."  Maybe (maybe) they don't mean for it to, but it comes across as a deliberate provocation....

 

Whether the Main Idea was to elicit media attention directly, or (relatedly) to elicit Christian rage so as to elicit publicity that way, or (lol) to boost marketing amongst surly kids... sure.  Just as Flying Spaghetti Monster is going for the satire effect, this is going for the reflexive-outrage effect.  Slightly different niches, but definitely related.

 

 

 

 

Garga: I am very much a think-through-analogies kind of person, and the point you made about the Confederate flag, and the mixed symbolic responses that it evokes, is sitting deeply with me... I am still sorting through a swirl of thoughts and emotions, but thank you for raising it and I hope to come back to it.

 

[hornblower]

 Fact is though there are atheists and some atheists like to form clubs. 

 

Not only that - some atheists proselytize. 

 

& some might steal the marketing tactics of other organizations to further their own ends. 

 

[MercyA]

nm

Edited August 4, 2016 by MercyA

[Haiku]

 But at the end of the day it's not the name I think some people are most offended by.  They just don't like the idea of atheists.  

 

Even more specifically, I don't think they like the idea of anyone having an alternative interpretation of their beliefs.

 

Which really just proves even more the need for a group of people who promote free thought and free inquiry.

 

As a member of a non-dominant religion, I have seen and heard hundreds of weird, incorrect, or potentially offensive interpretations of my religious beliefs. Most come from people who haven't bothered to become educated about it and don't really care to. They just don't like that something is different. Really, this is not threatening to me. If someone else wants to misunderstand my religion, have at it. It really doesn't affect me. I will counter misinformation if the subject is brought up, but beyond that, I have no personal stake in people understanding or believing in my religion's ideas.

 

So honestly, I have a hard time understanding why it matters to other people.

[hornblower]

& yet James Randi's million dollar paranormal challenge was never claimed 

[justasque]

 
Couple thoughts -

While supernatural causes is one explanation for the things that happened to MercyA, it is not the only possible/plausible explanation.
And even if you assume supernatural causes are to blame, that still doesn't mean that they were necessarily of the Biblical variety (as opposed to from Native American spiritual forces, or forces/beings from some other religious tradition).  
Or it could be God/Jesus/Satan.  We just don't have any proof either way.

Some possibilities - <specifics removed at MercyA's request, for privacy reasons>

>><removed>

This could have been strong air currents, or a small earthquake.

>><removed>

This definitely could have been an earthquake.  I've been in small ones, and they can be subtle.  They are very short, and often right afterwards one is left thinking, "Wait, what just happened?"  If you've never been in one before, your mind might not go to "earthquake".  And small ones are often not reported on the news.  Or, it could be that the house is old, and the foundations are shifting and had a large shift all at once.

>><removed>

This one is odd, but not unheard of.  Changes in air pressure, changes in temperature ..., pressurized contents breaking the seal, and so on can make this happen.    Usually not in and then immediately out (or vice versa), but perhaps in on one side then in on the other or something along those lines.
 

>><removed>

A child getting up in the night and putting the item where you found it is a possibility.  Or - and not to scare you - but there have been bizarre news stories where a family found someone was living in their attic, etc.  And, sadly, it could be that someone is playing a (not funny) joke, knowing that you may blame it on supernatural causes, and they are getting their kicks from that.    A neighbor, for example, who is not Christian and is playing tricks on you to see how you explain them.  I hope this is not the answer, because that would be beyond obnoxious (let alone illegal if it involves trespassing into your home).

Whatever the reasons, I am glad that the incidents seem to have stopped.  

Edited August 4, 2016 by justasque

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not only that - some atheists proselytize. 

 

& some might steal the marketing tactics of other organizations to further their own ends. 

 

 

I haven't met any that do, but hey why not?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Plus people lie, exaggerate, hallucinate, etc.

 

Sorry if that is offensive, but it's true. 

[hornblower]

Hallucinations are really not that rare & not only associated with severe psychiatric conditions. 

[MercyA]

 

Couple thoughts -

While supernatural causes is one explanation for the things that happened to MercyA, it is not the only possible/plausible explanation.

...

Whatever the reasons, I am glad that the incidents seem to have stopped.  

 

justasque, your comments in no way offended me, but could you please do me a favor and remove the parts of your post that quote me or include specifics about my experiences? I am planning on deleting the posts later for privacy reasons. 

 

Thanks!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have experienced minor earthquakes that moved stuff.  A few times.  And they were enough to move stuff, but not enough to even really realize what the heck was going on.

 

But once I felt an earthquake and realized what it was, and I had the weirdest feeling when it happened.  I live on a slight hill.  When trucks drive down the hill the house shakes.  Happens daily.  I'm very used to it so one day I heard that sound like a truck was coming down the hill except the shaking didn't stop.  My first absolute dire need was to get out of the house.  I know they say don't run out of the house, but that is what I did.  I just thought I have to get the hell out of here.  Then when I got outside it stopped. 

 

So weird and it must be really scary when it's serious. That wasn't serious at all. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

Couple thoughts -

While supernatural causes is one explanation for the things that happened to MercyA, it is not the only possible/plausible explanation...

 

 

Good post. I am a person who believes that there is a Satan, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but I would not immediately think "Satan" when I experienced anything that seemed paranormal.

 

I just don't feel that I know Satan that well personally that I can recognize him in my house, or that there are no other explanations that are either scientific and very physically real, or that there are no other demonic or occultic forces at work in the world anywhere...or, honestly, that I can entirely rely upon my own perceptions all the time.

 

For an example of that last concept, I once lived in a haunted house. You would not believe what I saw, and heard, and experienced. As the weirdness escalated, my children and I began to experience physical health problems. It wasn't long until we figured out that the house had toxic mold -- the black mold that can actually cause hallucinations in mold-sensitive or mold-allergic people!

 

It was a very old house. I checked the history, and learned that no family had lived there longer than two years since the heating and plumbing system was updated in the early 1980s or so. Two years is about how long it took for us to become really sick, and for me to start really freaking out about the ghosts, so I've often wondered if all those families were ill, too, and moved out because of it. My husband found the mold in the basement and believed it was related to a faulty installation of the new system, and inadequate ventilation in the basement. The mold had permeated the house. (He's in construction, so was able to check all this.)

 

So I really think the ghosts were likely hallucinations caused by mold poisoning. I was very ill from the mold; had to use an inhaler for two years and take oral steroids for more than one year. I already knew I was allergic to mold. My husband is not at all allergic to mold, and never experienced the haunting stuff in the first place. (Plus he was rarely home; he was working very long hours in those days.) But the kids and I were sick.

 

Before we started having the physical symptoms and found out about the mold, I would have sworn on a stack of Bibles that we were haunted. Maybe the house is haunted, I don't know. But I do know that I'm not all that susceptible to suggestions of paranormal activity, and even at the time I didn't think "Satan" because how would I know if it was Satan?

 

Just my two cents.

 

(Edited to remove quoted post.)

 

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar

[MercyA]

Good post. I am a person who believes that there is a Satan, and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but I would not immediately think "Satan" when I experienced anything that seemed paranormal.

 

I just don't feel that I know Satan that well personally that I can recognize him in my house, or that there are no other explanations that are either scientific and very physically real, or that there are no other demonic or occultic forces at work in the world anywhere...or, honestly, that I can entirely rely upon my own perceptions all the time.

 

For an example of that last concept, I once lived in a haunted house. You would not believe what I saw, and heard, and experienced. As the weirdness escalated, my children and I began to experience physical health problems. It wasn't long until we figured out that the house had toxic mold -- the black mold that can actually cause hallucinations in mold-sensitive or mold-allergic people!

 

It was a very old house. I checked the history, and learned that no family had lived there longer than two years since the heating and plumbing system was updated in the early 1980s or so. My husband found the mold in the basement and believed it was related to a faulty installation of the new system, and inadequate ventilation in the basement. The mold had permeated the house. (He's in construction, so was able to check all this.)

 

So I really think the ghosts were likely hallucinations caused by mold poisoning. I was very ill from the mold; had to use an inhaler for two years and take oral steroids for more than one year. I already knew I was allergic to mold. My husband is not at all allergic to mold, and never experienced the haunting stuff in the first place. (Plus he was rarely home; he was working very long hours in those days.) But the kids and I were sick.

 

Before we started having the physical symptoms and found out about the mold, I would have sworn on a stack of Bibles that we were haunted. Maybe the house is haunted, I don't know. But I do know that I'm not all that susceptible to suggestions of paranormal activity, and even at the time I didn't think "Satan" because how would I know if it was Satan?

 

Just my two cents.

 

(Edited to remove quoted post.)

 

Thanks for the edit, Tibbie.

 

I've left out significant portions of what happened to protect the privacy of my family. There was much more to it than I've shared here. 

 

Very interesting about your previous house! I have no doubt that things like that happen and am glad you figured it out. 

[Spryte]

I had an experience similar to Tibbie's. We lived in a 200 year old house, and it was clearly haunted. The things I experienced and saw would make anyone's hair stand on end. And there was no explanation.

 

FF to finding mold, a bad well, and we moved out. Things improved slightly but there were incidents in the next house.

 

Then we realized I was very, very ill with tick borne diseases, and had been fighting them for 20 years. If any of you have read Amy Tan's essays on living with Lyme Disease, you'll know that hallucinations are common in neurological Lyme.

 

I was treated, and have never had any sort of ghostly or paranormal experience since. None of it was real. It wasn't a haunting, it was my lifelong illness being exacerbated by an unhealthy house, and then after that it was simply the downward spiral that led to my getting treatment.

 

Those hallucinations were so real, you could not have convinced me otherwise. It was only hearing the stories that other people with similar illnesses had, that made me accept that even when I didn't yet know I was sick - I was hallucinating.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I had an experience similar to Tibbie's. We lived in a 200 year old house, and it was clearly haunted. The things I experienced and saw would make anyone's hair stand on end. And there was no explanation.

 

FF to finding mold, a bad well, and we moved out. Things improved slightly but there were incidents in the next house.

 

Then we realized I was very, very ill with tick borne diseases, and had been fighting them for 20 years. If any of you have read Amy Tan's essays on living with Lyme Disease, you'll know that hallucinations are common in neurological Lyme.

 

I was treated, and have never had any sort of ghostly or paranormal experience since. None of it was real. It wasn't a haunting, it was my lifelong illness being exacerbated by an unhealthy house, and then after that it was simply the downward spiral that led to my getting treatment.

 

Those hallucinations were so real, you could not have convinced me otherwise. It was only hearing the stories that other people with similar illnesses had, that made me accept that even when I didn't yet know I was sick - I was hallucinating.

 

Oh my goodness that must have been so scary!!  Are you recovered now?

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Someone once told me their partner started having very ragey thoughts.  Stuff like wanting to kill her dog.  It was scary.  So she went to a therapist thinking it was just heavy stress or something.  No, turned out she was having a bad reaction to medication she was taking for Lupus. 

 

 

[Spryte]

Oh my goodness that must have been so scary!! Are you recovered now?

Totally fine now. :) Except my belief in the paranormal is completely and utterly gone, ha! I think hallucinations are way more common than we think.

[Χά�ων]

Someone once told me their partner started having very ragey thoughts. Stuff like wanting to kill her dog. It was scary. So she went to a therapist thinking it was just heavy stress or something. No, turned out she was having a bad reaction to medication she was taking for Lupus.

I can believe that.

[Spryte]

Someone once told me their partner started having very ragey thoughts. Stuff like wanting to kill her dog. It was scary. So she went to a therapist thinking it was just heavy stress or something. No, turned out she was having a bad reaction to medication she was taking for Lupus.

Oh! That reminds me - DS had hallucinations on common allergy meds. Scary hallucinations. We took him to a therapist, had him evaluated, even took him to Children's National hospital for an MRI, and had a neuro following him. It was Singulair. He had taken it for years! He got off, and it all stopped. ...And I hallucinate when on Sudafed.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't think people realize just how many bizarre human conditions there are out there.  Stuff that causes people to have very unusual thoughts and feelings or that make them behave in strange ways. 

[Joules]

Totally agree.  The real atheists just don't care - believe what you want to believe, and so will they.  It's all good. 

The anti-theists tend to be militant and offensive. 

 

In some cases a "real" atheist is fine to live and let live.  And then she sends her child to a public school, where other children try to convince him that Jesus is the answer to everything and make him feel bad that he doesn't have Jesus, every single day.  The teachers might mention Christianity in class and discuss Creation Science.  The fun clubs that ALL the kids are part of are Christian.  There are even Christian groups that sponsor assemblies or offer Christian prayer at events.  Then the atheist parent might feel that the "live and let live" is a bit one-sided.  

 

If "Jesus" is replaced with "Muhammed" and "Christian" is replaced with "Islam," you might get an inkling of how she feels.  

 

The hypothetical family probably ought to move out of the Bible Belt, but sometimes that isn't possible and gosh-darn-it public schools are not supposed to push a specific religion.  (Some frustration here might explain the origin of the club from the OP.)

[TCB]

Let's say there is: so what? 

 

Why can't they be provocative with their name? 

 

 

 

 

My comment wasn't saying they couldn't be provocative - just disagreeing with someone who said they weren't being provocative.

[SparklyUnicorn]

In some cases a "real" atheist is fine to live and let live.  And then she sends her child to a public school, where other children try to convince him that Jesus is the answer to everything and make him feel bad that he doesn't have Jesus, every single day.  The teachers might mention Christianity in class and discuss Creation Science.  The fun clubs that ALL the kids are part of are Christian.  There are even Christian groups that sponsor assemblies or offer Christian prayer at events.  Then the atheist parent might feel that the "live and let live" is a bit one-sided.  

 

If "Jesus" is replaced with "Muhammed" and "Christian" is replaced with "Islam," you might get an inkling of how she feels.  

 

The hypothetical family probably ought to move out of the Bible Belt, but sometimes that isn't possible and gosh-darn-it public schools are not supposed to push a specific religion.  (Some frustration here might explain the origin of the club from the OP.)

 

Or her son is riding his bike around the neighborhood minding his own business when someone asks him which Bible camps he is going to in the summer.  When he says he isn't going to any Bible camps she remarks back oh are you an atheist?  Your parents are stupid.  Because that is what normal sane people say to 10 year old boys who are minding their own business. 

 

And I live in literally one of the most secular areas in the country!  Doesn't happen often, but I hear from others who deal with this stuff on a regular basis. 

Edited August 4, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[SparklyUnicorn]

Totally agree.  The real atheists just don't care - believe what you want to believe, and so will they.  It's all good. 

The anti-theists tend to be militant and offensive. 

 

See this is not really true because atheists aren't some sort of group really.  Yes some gather and form groups, but they often define themselves in whatever way they want.  There is no official atheist stance regarding whether or not they care about what others believe. 

[luuknam]

Or her son is riding his bike around the neighborhood minding his own business when someone asks him which Bible camps he is going to in the summer.  When he says he isn't going to any Bible camps she remarks back oh are you an atheist?  Your parents are stupid.  Because that is what normal sane people say to 10 year old boys who are minding their own business.

 

Or the special needs aide&bus driver in the public school PreK your special needs kid attends tells you that while she could lose her job over this, God compelled her to tell you that if you kept living in sin your life circumstances wouldn't improve. Not sure what sin she thought we were living in (it wasn't the name of the town), but when we moved our life circumstances magically improved (okay, we moved because of a job that paid way more, so it wasn't magic, but w/e).

[8circles]

This is a very interesting topic to me. I think that the ultimate goal of this satanic after-school group is a goal that I would support and be willing to work towards. At least what I've read a out it in this thread. I haven't had a chance to research it myself. I am a Xian. I would not be willing to join a group with such a name despite being in agreement with their goals - unless part of their goals is to also be divided with all xians - which maybe it is and I just missed it.

[Dmmetler]

In some cases a "real" atheist is fine to live and let live.  And then she sends her child to a public school, where other children try to convince him that Jesus is the answer to everything and make him feel bad that he doesn't have Jesus, every single day.  The teachers might mention Christianity in class and discuss Creation Science.  The fun clubs that ALL the kids are part of are Christian.  There are even Christian groups that sponsor assemblies or offer Christian prayer at events.  Then the atheist parent might feel that the "live and let live" is a bit one-sided.  

 

If "Jesus" is replaced with "Muhammed" and "Christian" is replaced with "Islam," you might get an inkling of how she feels.  

 

The hypothetical family probably ought to move out of the Bible Belt, but sometimes that isn't possible and gosh-darn-it public schools are not supposed to push a specific religion.  (Some frustration here might explain the origin of the club from the OP.)

 

I can see where it comes from (I taught in a Bible Belt "public school" for a decade, although we didn't have such clubs on campus)-but at the same time, I wouldn't allow my child to participate in something with "Satan" in the name precisely BECAUSE we're in the Bible Belt. It would be MUCH harder on the playground for the kid who goes to the "Satan" Club than to be the kid who doesn't go to the "Christian" club or doesn't go to church at all, and in the bible belt, not going to the "Right" church is already a major social strike against a kid. Not going to church or being of a different, but understood religion is another (and there's a hierarchy there as well-Moslem and Hindu kids have it tougher than atheist or agnostic kids do). I hate to think of where "Satanists" would fall, but I suspect that the kid would practically need an armed guard to be able to make it through the day. I could see high school kids choosing to self-identify and setting up their own club, but that's not a decision I would be comfortable letting my 5-11 yr old make.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I can see where it comes from (I taught in a Bible Belt "public school" for a decade, although we didn't have such clubs on campus)-but at the same time, I wouldn't allow my child to participate in something with "Satan" in the name precisely BECAUSE we're in the Bible Belt. It would be MUCH harder on the playground for the kid who goes to the "Satan" Club than to be the kid who doesn't go to the "Christian" club or doesn't go to church at all, and in the bible belt, not going to the "Right" church is already a major social strike against a kid. Not going to church or being of a different, but understood religion is another (and there's a hierarchy there as well-Moslem and Hindu kids have it tougher than atheist or agnostic kids do). I hate to think of where "Satanists" would fall, but I suspect that the kid would practically need an armed guard to be able to make it through the day. I could see high school kids choosing to self-identify and setting up their own club, but that's not a decision I would be comfortable letting my 5-11 yr old make.

 

Now see yeah I totally get this.  Kids can be pretty terrible to each other (adults too, but adults can generally speak up for themselves or walk away and be fine).  I do think they'd do better to change the name.  Doesn't mean they'd have to change the name of their organization in general. 

 

That said, I bet in states where religion has a heavy following/influence, this sort of club whatever it is called could end up being problematic. 

[TCB]

Or her son is riding his bike around the neighborhood minding his own business when someone asks him which Bible camps he is going to in the summer.  When he says he isn't going to any Bible camps she remarks back oh are you an atheist?  Your parents are stupid.  Because that is what normal sane people say to 10 year old boys who are minding their own business. 

 

And I live in literally one of the most secular areas in the country!  Doesn't happen often, but I hear from others who deal with this stuff on a regular basis. 

 

I'm really sorry this happened to your son, and there is no excuse for this. I have read posts on this forum also, where posters who believe in Young Earth are called stupid too.  Unfortunately there are unpleasant people out there and I don't think any group has the monopoly on unpleasantness.

[Spryte]

Or when your kid makes a new friend, and they get along great. Both moms are thrilled, make a standing play date, and it's all good until the subject of church comes up, with the mom. Being a live and let live type, this mom said nothing that could be taken offensively. Nothing is overtly said, but the family doesn't show for the next play date, and never answers another call or text. Much sadness ensued, from the 6 yr old child who got dumped. Clearly the family is ok, as they appear at homeschool swim days, pointedly ignoring your son and family.

 

Or the kid on the playground who tells your kid, "you're going to hell" after a discussion about whether one can swing all the way around the swing set. Your kid had explained the physics behind it, and kid had responded with God could do it. Your kid explained that he wasn't sure there was a god, and that the ancient Egyptians thought their gods were real, too, so who's to know?

 

Or the "inclusive" Xian led co-op that evangelizes, but encourages people of other/no faith to join. Then ostracizes families who don't conform or convert.

 

I could go on and on.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Spryte

[Leav97]

"The name is not reflective of the activity."

 

I didn't want to specifically quote one person because a # of people have commented that the club should be named something different.  

 

The SATANIC temple shouldn't be allowed to use the word satanic in the name of a club they run that matches the beliefs of the satanic temple?  Really, this would be all better if they had just called it a philosophy club and no one knew it was associated with the satanic temple?  Parents would then feel the name of the club wasn't deceptive because the club doesn't really worship satan?

 

I think people would seriously lose their shit if they started a club called the afterschool science club and parents didn't know it was run by the satanic temple.

[SparklyUnicorn]

"The name is not reflective of the activity."

 

I didn't want to specifically quote one person because a # of people have commented that the club should be named something different.  

 

The SATANIC temple shouldn't be allowed to use the word satanic in the name of a club they run that matches the beliefs of the satanic temple?  Really, this would be all better if they had just called it a philosophy club and no one knew it was associated with the satanic temple?  Parents would then feel the name of the club wasn't deceptive because the club doesn't really worship satan?

 

I think people would seriously lose their shit if they started a club called the afterschool science club and parents didn't know it was run by the satanic temple.

 

Good point.  They aren't being sneaky about it. 

[J-rap]

No, I think the idea is to offer kids an alternative to religiously-based organizations AND to challenge the very idea that schools should host religiously-based organizations.

 

 

 

I have never known a public school to host a religiously-based organization of any kind.  The schools in districts we have been a part of, in both California and the Midwest, are very careful not to do that.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have never known a public school to host a religiously-based organization of any kind.  The schools in districts we have been a part of, in both California and the Midwest, are very careful not to do that.

 

See I would have assumed this, but no apparently schools will often essentially rent space for clubs of any kind so long as they meet certain criteria.  And even if these aren't specifically religious clubs, you figure stuff like Boy's Scouts has a religious bend and I've never heard of a school not allowing them to rent space.

[Josh Blade]

 It would be MUCH harder on the playground for the kid who goes to the "Satan" Club than to be the kid who doesn't go to the "Christian" club or doesn't go to church at all, and in the bible belt, not going to the "Right" church is already a major social strike against a kid.

 

I see people say these kinds of generalizations about the south all the time, but I've yet to experience anything like this.

 

I grew up in GA and went to public school in the 90s/early 2000s. I don't know that anyone ever asked me specifically about my religion at all. I never had a teacher mention anything about religion other than possibly telling a story that involved them being at their church. I grew up non religious. My mom says she believes in some kind of higher power, but we never went to church or anything and I was never indoctrinated into any kind of belief or non belief (I was just not exposed almost at all). By high school I came to realize I'm an atheist (prior to that there just wasn't any thought about it). I'm still in GA and overwhelmingly, the people I know are all Christian.

 

One of my great friends from work is the most religious person I know ('found' god after a brain tumor years ago and really turned his whole life around from decades of drug abuse). He is a mentor for an AA type faith based program, never misses church, prays before every meal, asks to say prayers for others that are having troubles, every hardship he endures he approaches optimistically saying God hasn't helped him come this far to fail, every triumph in his life he gives credit to God, etc. He knows I'm an atheist and it has never been a problem. Our families regularly visit each other and have group outings. The same thing for everyone at my wife's church. I go to group events/parties/kids choir etc sometimes and they all know why I'm not there on Sundays with my wife, but the most I hear that is remotely evangelizing is that they hope to see me more often. 

 

I'm sure there are these crazy religious fanatics out there that are rude to people that are different, but I find it hard to believe after living in 6 or 7 different cities in GA and never seeing it for myself that it is really as wide spread as it's made out to be - even in the bible belt. 

[hornblower]

I have never known a public school to host a religiously-based organization of any kind.  The schools in districts we have been a part of, in both California and the Midwest, are very careful not to do that.

 

But it is happening. These clubs are arising DIRECTLY in response to the Good News clubs. In fact, the Satanic Church applies to offer a club only in schools which have allowed the Good News Evangelical clubs. 

 

Good News apparently is in >4000 schools in the US. 

 

Someone wrote a book about this https://www.amazon.ca/Good-News-Club-Christian-Americas/dp/1586488430  (haven't read the book so can't comment on it..) 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well you may have to convince quite a few religious on this board about that. It's a given that whenever the Athiest term gets tossed around in threads, many will swear that atheists make 'it' their religion. Used to bother me until I started connecting these posters to their other usual peculiarities...

 

Oh yeah.  There are absolutely positively atheists out there who want to get people on board.  No doubt about that.  But really why would this be any different because they are atheists?  Some people want others to join them or want to save them from their ignorance.  Some people feel compelled to speak up about what they believe or don't believe. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

just looked what clubs they have at the high school here

 

They have one religious club called the Christian Alliance.

 

 

[Joshin]

Around here, you can do anything in a school if you get the PTA/PTG to sponsor it and sign off on it. Otherwise, anything to do with religion cannot advertise to the student body on school grounds and they have to pay a huge facilities fee to rent a gym or classroom. For example, the boy scouts get around the rule that no school can sponsor a religious organization (which they are considered until they drop the athiest/agnostic thing. Fingers crossed, but they are just beginning to make strides in the right direction on the LGBT thing), but most of the more secular troops meets in schools using the PTA work around.

 

Of course, there are a lot of double standards around here, so I am sure many religious groups slip through the cracks.

[Pam in CT]

re criteria for public schools permitting after school clubs to use the space:

See I would have assumed this, but no apparently schools will often essentially rent space for clubs of any kind so long as they meet certain criteria.  And even if these aren't specifically religious clubs, you figure stuff like Boy's Scouts has a religious bend and I've never heard of a school not allowing them to rent space.

 

Whether or not rent payments are involved, different towns make different decisions even in our area.  When we first moved to town nearly 20 years ago, the public schools permitted (without charge) both the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts to use school space after school.  Then after the BS policy on gay members got more traction, the school rescinded the BS' access to the space.  Unsurprisingly the BS troops protested that they were being "evicted" while the GS were not.  For a year or so the issue threatened to reach the courts until the local GS council asked troops to find other spaces.  

 

The ultimate compromise was that the school system began running a bus to the library, which happens to be within walking distance of various other public spaces.  The various troop leaders would meet the kids there and walk them over to wherever they met.  (The school system also runs a bus to CCD, as one point of comparison.)

 

A neighboring town in which I used to teach held the line and permitted GS but not BS to use school space.  Dunno how/if that's changed with the BS relaxation of its policies.  Other districts allow both.  I'm not aware of any around here who charge rent for non-profit organizations (for-profit organizations, yes.)

[Mosaicmind]

True worshipers of Satan aren't part of the satanic temple. GEESH!!! I grew up in a multigenerational satanic cult. We would never come out publicly to have some kind of school club. That's just a joke honestly. Kids and groups who get together saying they worship Satan are also just messing around, though if not careful could invite something very bad they don't want around. But, I can tell you that true satanic worshipers and those that are parts of the bigger group aren't out soliciting members. I wish people would shut their mouth when they know nothing about what they are writing. I'm no longer part of the cult but it's not been that long and I'm definitely glad to be out.