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I wonder what alternative names people could come up with that communicate the point of the group ?

 

It's hard to defend the right to blaspheme, communicate that religion doesn't belong in schools, promote free thinking and have a gentle name that bothers no-one, kwim ?

 

But I'd love to hear suggestions!

Free minds, free voices

Think Out Loud

Humanity unbound

We The Thinking People

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The Satanic Temple is dedicated to reason and scientific inquiry. They are huge in the separation of church and state. They promote religious liberty for ALL religions. They do not worship Satan and i

I think the name is ridiculous.  It seems disingenuous to say, "Oh we just picked the name for people to take a look at this issue..."  Maybe (maybe) they don't mean for it to, but it comes across as

This is absolutely untrue. The Satanic Temple is simply trying to ensure equal access for ALL religions and to prevent religious liberties from being extended merely to accepted, tolerated religions.

The thing is, LMD, religious people evangelizing - of any persuasion - on public school campuses offends me. Different country now, but my dd's school had an extreme Christian group operating in her school and taking girls out of science class for bible study among their many other violations of policy and they were protected. By the school, by the department, by the Minister.

 

A name, OTOH ? It hardly rates in comparison.

 

Protect the right to blasphemy and there is no need to blaspheme.

 

Take religion out of schools and there is no need for Satan clubs.

 

The answer to this so-called offence lies within the hands of the religious.

That, I do agree with.

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As the parent of a child who has been confronted multiple times by friends and peers about his "relationship with jesus" I highly respect this group and the work they do. I, as one person, do not have the time or resources ($$) to fight against those who view it as vital to "save" my child's enternal soul by any means. In this I am including pushing for their organization to be in publicly funded schools and relying on fun activities and peer pressure to bring in more kids, as well as groups making demands to have their mythology taught as fact in the same schools.

 

The ST exists because of the actions of christians who feel they must have their religion in the public sphere. The work the group does is very much needed to counter the continued push by the christian right's attempt to make their narrow brand of christianity the officially reconized relgion of the US. I support any and all organzations who will push back and make sure it is clear that this is NOT a christian (or any relgion) country.

 

I am fully aware that many people here will find it offensive to call the biblical creation myth, well, a myth. It is an accurate term and I cannot be held responsible for the feelings of others.

 

I am fully aware that many posters on this forum who would be delighted if their child "brought little Johnny to jesus" while being horrified if little Johnny talked about how wonderful their religion is and converted their child to another religion and would never make the connection that both are equally wrong.

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As the parent of a child who has been confronted multiple times by friends and peers about his "relationship with jesus" I highly respect this group and the work they do. I, as one person, do not have the time or resources ($$) to fight against those who view it as vital to "save" my child's enternal soul by any means. In this I am including pushing for their organization to be in publicly funded schools and relying on fun activities and peer pressure to bring in more kids, as well as groups making demands to have their mythology taught as fact in the same schools.

 

The ST exists because of the actions of christians who feel they must have their religion in the public sphere. The work the group does is very much needed to counter the continued push by the christian right's attempt to make their narrow brand of christianity the officially reconized relgion of the US. I support any and all organzations who will push back and make sure it is clear that this is NOT a christian (or any relgion) country.

 

I am fully aware that many people here will find it offensive to call the biblical creation myth, well, a myth. It is an accurate term and I cannot be held responsible for the feelings of others.

 

I am fully aware that many posters on this forum who would be delighted if their child "brought little Johnny to jesus" while being horrified if little Johnny talked about how wonderful their religion is and converted their child to another religion and would never make the connection that both are equally wrong.

 

Only encountered nastiness towards my kid once thankfully, but you aren't the only person to say this.  It's one thing if someone wants to get into it with me.  That's annoying enough, but you don't act like an arse towards my kid.  And I'm referring to an adult!

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It would be really nice if people could refrain from calling people who support this or the FSM as 'immature' and 'childish' 

 

It wouldn't fly to call any other beliefs or believers that. 

 

 

 

Have any really rich adult discussions ever come out of that kind of approach to criticizing an idea? 

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There won't be Satan clubs if Christians ( and Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and whomever else) stop using public schools as a huge pool of potential converts. 

 

Hold your groups at your places of worship  and nobody will complain or object.

 

I think it's a tad hypocritical to get knickers in a knot over Satan club without being prepared to countenance that maybe school children on their public school campus' aren't fair game for your particular religion.

 

Srsly. Anyone who imagines what many Christian clubs teach isn't offensive to others needs to go and read some Christian club curriculum** And if you still believe in your right to promote those things despite being offensive, then you darn well should be believing in the rights of others to promote what is offensive to you.

 

It either works both ways, or it doesn't work at all. Personally, I'd kick Satan Temple and the Christians* off campus.

 

*plus other religions as applicable.

** One gem is the licked cupcake/used car activity. Totally inappropriate in a public school setting ( totally inappropriate anywhere, imo).

 

I don't see anyone making this kind of argument though, only that religious clubs of all kinds, if that is actually what they are, should be allowed.  The objection to this club, in this discussion,  is from a wholly different perspective.

 

That being said, on that principle of freedom for students to form groups around a variety of religious beliefs, it is possible for someone to consistently say there should be an exception because a particular religious group is somehow so dangerous that the normal freedom of students to associate and form clubs as they choose should be curtailed.  I suspect that some people might feel that way about a real Satanists club, but judging that would be more a matter of figuring out the facts - either looking at the activities of that particular club, or perhaps looking at the way such groups usually behave, if the trend is extreme enough.

 

I'm not really sure why it matters that any group may have beliefs that are offensive to any other. No doubt the Marxists' beliefs are offensive to the Young Libertarians. That is not the same as saying the purpose of the group, or it's name, is chosen specifically in order to create offence amongst a certain group of people, and without it having any real substantive need to do so.

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I'm against purposeful deception.

 

They aren't being deceptive. All their information is readily available on their website. They are perfectly upfront about who they are and what they believe.

 

When I said to myself, "Self, what is this Satanic Temple I am hearing about?", I sat right down and Googled it and, lo and behold, the internet had a wealth of information readily available to me.

 

I get that people object to them using the word Satan, and I understand (even if I don't agree with) why. But to claim that the Satanic Temple is being deceptive is simply wrong; they state very clearly why they chose the name Satan (which is not actually copyrighted and doesn't belong to anyone, so there are no rules or laws about how it can be used) and how it relates to what they do.

 

However, I absolutely think that the Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks should change their name, as they don't actually do anything to help actual elks. It's really misleading.

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lol, probably not, but change certainly has. 

 

I'd take change over a polite chat over tea and bikkies.

 

Change that isn't based on substantive ideas doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me.  Even if it's by chance is change toward truth, if you don't manage to actually convince people, it isn't going to be very effective and might well be counter-productive. 

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Ok..but then it is definitely not ok because blasphemy is meant as an insult to other religions. How can anything be in the name of religious freedom if you are purposefully making a group for the purpose of insulting others?

 

Christian beliefs and practices can be deeply wrong to those of other faiths. Christians believe in a messiah that others are still waiting for or perhaps have found in a different prophet. Perhaps you find their alternative prophet to be a false one as well. Your right to proclaim your beliefs in your own church is protected in this country, as is the right of this organization to proclaim its beliefs in its own temple. However, if you are proclaiming your beliefs in a public square that the local satanic temple believes they are also paying for via their taxes, they may try to craft a test case out of it. They never come in first, they are always asking for access to some public space another religious organization already has access to.

 

As they said in the FAQ, it's showing independence from traditional norms which is core to their belief systems, not offending you. But, they really don't mind at all if you want to see them in court. They would prefer to create a more secular society than to enjoy equal access for satanistic temple members and Christians. They are looking for the public institution to try to ban them or to offer something "separate but equal" instead to create that test case.

 

Is it polite? No. (It is much easier for those who are not deeply offended to say, "it's just a name, get over it.") Is it effective? Yes and no. Is it a form of free speech and freedom of religion as guaranteed in the constitution? Yes, absolutely.

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No, I think the idea is to offer kids an alternative to religiously-based organizations AND to challenge the very idea that schools should host religiously-based organizations.

 

These "satanic" clubs would not be allowed on campus if some Christians hadn't pushed for schools to allow their own clubs to meet on school property. The point is that, if one religious group is allowed that right, then all religious groups must be allowed an equal right. Christians don't get a free pass because their "mascot" is the "good" or "correct" one.

What kind of "alternetive" do they need?  There are already a BAZILLION other alternetives.  There's chess club and environmental club and anime club and math club and battle bots club and equestrian club and...and...and...like evelenty billion other after school clubs and groups and activities that NOTHING to do with Christianity.  Every single one of those is an alternative to a religiously based club. 

 

I think the thing for me about the "point" of allowing all religious groups since one religious group is....is that this group ISN'T a religious group.  They took their name to make it seem like they were a religious group that is the exact opposite of this "good news". club.  They don't do ANY religious activities during their meeting.  They aren't a religious group and are masquerading as such just to prove a point.

 

 

Sorry...I don't let my kids join a club that is using them just to prove a point.

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What kind of "alternetive" do they need? There are already a BAZILLION other alternetives. There's chess club and environmental club and anime club and math club and battle bots club and equestrian club and...and...and...like evelenty billion other after school clubs and groups and activities that NOTHING to do with Christianity. Every single one of those is an alternative to a religiously based club.

 

I think the thing for me about the "point" of allowing all religious groups since one religious group is....is that this group ISN'T a religious group. They took their name to make it seem like they were a religious group that is the exact opposite of this "good news". club. They don't do ANY religious activities during their meeting. They aren't a religious group and are masquerading as such just to prove a point.

 

 

Sorry...I don't let my kids join a club that is using them just to prove a point.

 

The point is that if one religion is represented, then all need to have equal access. This does not happen. A secular club is not an alternative.

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The point is that if one religion is represented, then all need to have equal access. This does not happen. A secular club is not an alternative.

except...again...this group isn't a religious club.  They are doing science and history lessons, not participating in religious activities.  These people are atheists.  As an atheist, by definition,  is WITHOUT religion. 

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That being said, on that principle of freedom for students to form groups around a variety of religious beliefs, it is possible for someone to consistently say there should be an exception because a particular religious group is somehow so dangerous that the normal freedom of students to associate and form clubs as they choose should be curtailed.

 

I would like to point out that the good news club is not a student organized or student lead club.

 

From their own website:

"What is a Good News Club?

 

Good News Club® is a ministry of Child Evangelism Fellowship in which trained teachers meet with groups of children in schools, homes, community centers, churches, apartment complexes, just about anywhere the children can easily and safely meet with their parent's permission. Each week the teacher presents an exciting Bible lesson using colorful materials from CEF Press. This action-packed time also includes songs, Scripture memory, a missions story and review games or other activities focused on the lesson's theme."

 

No one is denying a student freedom to associate and form a club. The students are free to join and attend. The school is not free to promote or allow only the good news club.

 

What is happening is an evangical christian organization has pushed to be allowed as an after school group. The group is not student lead and is not secular has been allowed into publicly funded schools. Now a different group is using the same grounds to gain the same access to elementry aged children. Theu even offer a teacher lead curriculum and similar tactics to draw in students.

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except...again...this group isn't a religious club. They are doing science and history lessons, not participating in religious activities. These people are atheists. As an atheist, by definition, is WITHOUT religion.

Point of interest: In the evangical christian world, religion is being called science and history. Not sure how teaching actual science and history, that have supportive evidence is any different.

 

Religion gets a pass, and that brings us back to why the efforts of this organization are needed.

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except...again...this group isn't a religious club.  They are doing science and history lessons, not participating in religious activities.  These people are atheists.  As an atheist, by definition,  is WITHOUT religion. 

 

But, Constitutionally, freedom "from" religion also falls under the banner of religious freedom.

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I was curious about the "do they have to have such an offensive name" issue, and the "are they are religion" issue, so I looked at what they had to say.  From their web site:
 

No, this program wouldn’t be “better†if we merely called ourselves Humanists. We are Satanists. That is how we identify, and it is how we’ll continue to identify. It makes no difference who does or does not choose to recognize an atheistic Satanic philosophy as a legitimate religion. Satanism is the foundation of our sense of cultural identity and we’re not willing to change how we contextualize our own lives to make ourselves more palatable to others. Just the same, there are those who will lament that our program, introduced into public schools, would be better for children if done under the label of Humanism, Skepticism, or anything less controversial than Satanism. We wholeheartedly disagree. As we are intentionally and pointedly placing After School Satan Clubs in schools where proselytizing evangelicals have established clubs, we think that the counter-balance of a Satanic club isn’t simply acceptable, but necessary. While the Good News Clubs try to invade children’s minds with traumatic and unhealthy guilt-ridden admonishments — such as that they “deserve God’s punishment for sin, which is death†— the very presence of Satanic after school clubs demonstrate that there are opposing religious beliefs held by responsible, respectable, moral people who live productive lives without the burden of superstitious fear. For children to see and understand that “blasphemous†names and iconography can be utilized by good people without repercussions, sends a positive message encouraging critical examination and free thought.
 
We are not interested in converting children to Satanism. Unlike the Child Evangelism Fellowship, which openly seeks to convert children to their religious view through fear of eternal suffering, The Satanic Temple does not believe in imposing a one-size-fits-all approach to religious opinion. As Satanists, we believe that science is the best arbiter of truth. We see the quest for knowledge as a noble pursuit, and we believe in personal autonomy. However, nobody needs to be a Satanist to benefit from any of these things, and children should be given access to a variety of comparative opinions with which they can ultimately decide what is best for them. After School Satan Clubs are conducted by Satanists in accordance with our values, but participating children are neither required to identify as Satanists, nor will we ask that they, at any point, do so.

 

And from another page on the site:
 

So Scientific Rationalism is a religion?
No, Satanism is a religion that endorses scientific rationalism as our best model for understanding the natural world. Just as a moral sense of altruism exists independent of any religious construct, scientific rationalism is the best method for understanding our physical universe, regardless of what religion we identify with. A religion need not make exclusive claim to a value, ethical principle, or practice, to advocate its advance.
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IS TST A MEDIA STUNT/HOAX/TROLLING, ETC.?

Some have conveniently concluded, upon observing The Satanic Temple’s media coverage, that the media attention itself is the primary objective of TST’s activities. While media outreach has helped to raise awareness of the campaigns we have initiated, these campaigns have ultimate goals related issues that are important to us and our membership.

So inured is the general public to the idea that there is only one monolithic voice of “the†religious agenda that any attempt at a counter-balance — or assertion of a minority voice — is often viewed as necessarily a mere targeted provocation against those who enjoy an unquestioned tacit assertion of sole squatters rights in the religio-political dialogue.

 

 

 

I’M OFFENDED!!!

Please go elsewhere. We are probably offended by your beliefs, but we do not send you hateful email.

 

 

http://thesatanictemple.com/faq/

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Free minds, free voices

Think Out Loud

Humanity unbound

We The Thinking People

 

I think that if I were a Christian, I'd be mighty offended at the implicit judgment in these names. You have to be secular to be a free, thinking person?

 

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I'm sorry, Sadie, but you know I can't agree. Satan, demons, and Jesus either exist, or they don't. My opinion has no bearing on that objective truth. The experiences I mentioned here were solidly in the physical realm. You have my word, for what it's worth.

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I have very mixed feelings. On the one hand, I think the name is a great shock tactic and it's used incredibly effectively here. They want people to realize how opening the afterschool slot to religion means opening it to anyone, not just "your" religion. And this accomplishes that very well.

 

On the other hand, if their goal is to actually provide substantive programming to kids (and supposedly the curriculum they've developed is actually quite good) teaching critical thinking skills and so forth, then I think the name gets in the way. They're specifically targeting schools where evangelical groups are providing these programs teaching kids their viewpoint. If they really want to provide an alternative to a wide audience, I don't think they're going to accomplish that part of their goal.

 

I find it patently absurd to think that the name isn't meant to be a shock tactic. Of course it is. Of course they don't believe Satan is real. But they chose their symbol to tick off the other side. It's like eating ham on Easter. Or when you purposefully wear that shirt your grandmother loathes to her 70th birthday. It's like, okay, it's not hurting anyone, but if your goal is to make friends, you didn't achieve it. In some contexts, shock tactics are great for getting attention to your cause and achieving your goals. In others, they get in the way. I'm not totally sure which category this thing falls into.

Edited by Farrar
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 I'm not going to argue with you, because it would be a waste of both our time, and try both our patience :)

 

Quite likely!  :)

 

Everyone is of course free to make what they want of what I've shared here, but I've done my best to describe what happened as carefully and accurately as possible. 

 

Have a good day, Sadie.

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I'm sorry, Sadie, but you know I can't agree. Satan, demons, and Jesus either exist, or they don't. My opinion has no bearing on that objective truth. The experiences I mentioned here were solidly in the physical realm. You have my word, for what it's worth.

Quoting this instead of the other post.

 

I have an appliance that starts with no one in the room. I have a microwave that will not cook dumplings after 10pm but is otherwise fine. I have a toilet that moves when one person is using it but not when another is using it. The doors do not stay locked. Stuff ends up in odd places and not where left. Things move without being touched. Radio stations seem to change. Some areas go from beng insanely cold one minute to intolerably hot the next minute, seemingly at random.

 

None of these were the result of demons or satan. By carefully watching the appliances and people in the house I found out why things happen and resolved most issues, I am confident others will resolve with time. Had I just assumed it was demons, my house would probably be an absolutely terrifying place to live.

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I don't understand why being polite has become the end all and be all.  Being polite is not what wins rights and changes society. 

 

When fighting for separation of church and state, and at a time when people in the US are all shouting about religious freedom but what they really mean is Christian religious freedom. groups like this are vital. 

 

 

Absolutely. Try suggesting that "we" (in the US) instead of saying a prayer for invocation, we Praise Allah.Or cast a circle. Many of those *in* the Judeo-Christian overculture don't see it. For example, there is no such thing as Judeo-Christian values. Name ONE, beyond believing in Jesus, that is an exclusive Judeo-Christian value.

 

Me? While science is my higher power, I can get behind the principles and disciplines that show up in all major (and the minor I am familiar with) religions. Service, compassion, forgiveness, charity, kindness, peace?

 

And, finally, as someone who would support the activities of the Satan-named club, it ultimately defines itself not on its own merit but forever associated with a Judeo-Christian concept - Satan. Ironic. If you don't believe in a deity, specifically God/Jesus, you don't believe in Satan. It's like me with my tattoo. I wanted one long before it was trendy. But my 1st husband didn't want me to get one, so I didn't. When we divorced, I immediately thought "TATTOO." Fortunately, I realized I didn't want the tattoo associated with the divorce - with him - so I waited. 6 years. LOL.

 

 

I think that the "Satan" in the name is obnoxious, frankly.

 

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Mercy, I believe everything happened, just as you say it did.

 

I've had my own ...uh, experiences. Creepy ones and less creepy ones. As have most of my family members.

 

But, I don't think religion, Satan, Demons, Jesus, Santa Claus, or FSM has anything to do with any of it. It's just energy.

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Mercy, I believe everything happened, just as you say it did.

 

I've had my own ...uh, experiences. Creepy ones and less creepy ones. As have most of my family members.

 

But, I don't think religion, Satan, Demons, Jesus, Santa Claus, or FSM has anything to do with any of it. It's just energy.

 

I seriously appreciate that, fraidycat.  :)

 

All I can say is that it was abundantly clear exactly what we were dealing with, in this case. 

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My humble thoughts on this:  I don't like any outside organization petitioning to make afterschool clubs at school.  It's one thing for a student/parent to say, "hey, I would like X club." and then find organizations to support it or know of an organization that has materials to set up a club.  Or even for a teacher to seek out club ideas based on student interests that don't have afterschool clubs.  I guess I think school clubs should be school/student/parent driven.

 

Since I'm not in the school system, I'm not sure really how afterschool clubs work.  I would love for it to play out the way it did for a friend of mine.  One of my friends just started a Girl Scout troop at her daughters' school.  Communication between a few of the moms started the ball rolling.  Then they contacted the school to find out requirements, contacted GS for requirements, and then contacted parents.  This was something the parents wanted for their girls and sought out how to make it an afterschool activity not GS seeking out how to establish a troop at this school.  

 

Probably completely naive on my part. ;)

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Another thing to consider is what voluntary means. The local elementary school has a whole menu of clubs that meet on different days after school. M/W Zumba kids, robotics ; T/R Odyssey of the mind, flag football ; F GOTR, geography....etc. the PTA works hard to make sure there are many choices. Some parents are using the clubs as an extended day to avoid daycare costs. The clubs are significantly cheaper than daycare.

 

I can easily see the situation where someone on a really tight budget is attending a school with only one club, deciding to put the child in the club no matter the club focus simply because there isn't a safe, affordable alternative.

 

One district in my area that is in the news because of the aftershcool satanic club is very poor. The good news club is in many of the schools. It could be easy to see the joining the good news club is only quasi voluntary for a poor family with nowhere else for childrento go.

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I never heard of this club but maybe they are calling it satanic because they get accused of that kind of thing anyway and it makes no sense to them since they do not believe in any deities. So they are poking fun of themselves and what they get called anyway. People hold a very negative view towards atheist lower then any minority religion or race. I sometimes joke and say I am raising a bunch of Godless heathens.

 

This was my thought.  Having grown up being told I was going to hell or my heart was gripped by Satan, I can see the urge to just give in and accept the identity.  I would have probably liked a safe place where those of us "under Satan's influence" could gather.  It seems if a group uses their term to describe groups of people, it is not necessarily disrespectful to use that term to identify oneself.  OTOH, I think most of the Christians here may not see that, because you guys aren't the type to regularly tell people they are going to hell or instruct their children to tell other children they are going to hell.

 

Oh and "I don't, I'm a heathen." is really not a good response to the perennial "Where do you go to church?" question, as tempting as it may be. ;-)

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Only encountered nastiness towards my kid once thankfully, but you aren't the only person to say this.  It's one thing if someone wants to get into it with me.  That's annoying enough, but you don't act like an arse towards my kid.  And I'm referring to an adult!

 

So far, and to the best of my knowledge, my kids haven't had any nastiness directed toward them.  A few, however, have started to recognize how religion, specifically Christianity, is considered required knowledge in our society.

 

One dd had points taken off a co-op assignment b/c she was unable to compare a piece of literature to bible stories.  In the past year, she's found it frustrating and sometimes outright impossible to adapt homeschool materials for secular use.  Now, we clearly have a lot of control over those situations and can make different choices, but she's been given a glimpse of what society presumes.

 

I don't really know where I fall on the whole name thing.  I once spoke to a tattoo artist about the pentagram I *really* want on my wrist, and how I just don't want my kids to catch flak from stupid people who might assume I'm some sort of satanist.  So he proceeds to tell me he understands the concern; he has friends who are satanists and have kids.  I, a firm atheist, probably had a shocked look on my face.  It didn't occur to me in the moment to ask whether they were anti-theists or, you know, worshiped satan.  Not that it'd be any of my business either way, but the word did shake me!

 

On the other hand, I fully support the idea that shaking needs to be done.  (In many areas, not just this one.)

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It sounds like they are making sure Christian families do not enroll their kids in their club.  They might as well name it ATHEISTS ONLY club.   If they don't want a room containing kids who might actually believe in Jesus, this would help them achieve that goal.  In some neighborhoods they probably won't be very successful with their recruitment efforts, but to each their own, I guess.

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I wonder whether people who continue to assert that the Satanic Temple is being disingenuous and only going for shock value (in the face of easily accessible material that explains the Satanic Temple's point of view) would be perfectly fine with other people accusing them and their religion of being disingenuous and shocking just because those people disagreed with them.

 

Perhaps this is actually a perfect example of why we need things like FSM and ST to begin with.

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There won't be Satan clubs if Christians ( and Muslims and Jews and Buddhists and whomever else) stop using public schools as a huge pool of potential converts. 

 

Hold your groups at your places of worship  and nobody will complain or object.

 

I think it's a tad hypocritical to get knickers in a knot over Satan club without being prepared to countenance that maybe school children on their public school campus' aren't fair game for your particular religion.

 

Srsly. Anyone who imagines what many Christian clubs teach isn't offensive to others needs to go and read some Christian club curriculum** And if you still believe in your right to promote those things despite being offensive, then you darn well should be believing in the rights of others to promote what is offensive to you.

 

It either works both ways, or it doesn't work at all. Personally, I'd kick Satan Temple and the Christians* off campus.

 

*plus other religions as applicable.

** One gem is the licked cupcake/used car activity. Totally inappropriate in a public school setting ( totally inappropriate anywhere, imo).

 

I haven't posted yet and I haven't read the entire thread, I have had far too much going on these last few days, but I have a lot I agree with in your post, and I am a Christian.

 

I get very upset when I see memes on FB that say, "Bring prayer back to our schools" or similar.  Whose prayer?  To whom are you praying?  ONLY to the Christian God?    Of course not.  When you allow one religion or ideology in, you must allow them all.

 

I don't particularly like the name of the club, and I would probably voice that opinion if I were at the school offering it, but I wouldn't try to stop them from meeting on campus.  And no, I don't mind that all of them meet on campus, as long as it doesn't interfere with actual school.

 

No one should be taken out of an instructional class for a club activity.  (I think someone else posted about that near your post.)

 

And wouldn't it be lovely if everyone could discuss religious views as an actual discussing instead of arguing or trying to "one up" the other person.  You know, respecting each other.  

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It sounds like they are making sure Christian families do not enroll their kids in their club.  They might as well name it ATHEISTS ONLY club.   If they don't want a room containing kids who might actually believe in Jesus, this would help them achieve that goal.  In some neighborhoods they probably won't be very successful with their recruitment efforts, but to each their own, I guess.

 

 

Usually clubs aren't ones families enroll in, they are on campus, typically after school, for students to go to on their own.  Many times there isn't even a sign up, you just show up when you can.

 

There have only been a couple of clubs that got too full and needed to have sign ups.  I can't even remember what they were.

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Usually clubs aren't ones families enroll in, they are on campus, typically after school, for students to go to on their own. Many times there isn't even a sign up, you just show up when you can.

 

There have only been a couple of clubs that got too full and needed to have sign ups. I can't even remember what they were.

I think you are assuming these are just high school. In my area elementary and middle schools have clubs too. In the high school students go after school or at lunch on their own. However middle and elementary students have to have permission to stay after. So at those levels parents would know and approve of what their kids are joining.

 

Also the schools talked about in my area for the Satanic After school Club are elementary schools, which why I brought up the afterschool childcare issue in poor districts. Essentially, Christian groups are coming in to do clubs. They act as afterschool childcare. There is no other cheap school based alternative. That is a captive audience for evangelism.

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Different country now, but my dd's school had an extreme Christian group operating in her school and taking girls out of science class for bible study among their many other violations of policy and they were protected. By the school, by the department, by the Minister. 

 

Perhaps this happens in other countries or even maybe still in a few schools in our country, but in general here (legally here) this can not happen unless it is voluntary, and for youngsters, with parent permission.

 

In our current day of oodles of testing, I'd find it odd if they pulled any kids out of the main classes.

 

At my school, clubs are during the day in their own special time slot.  Kids have oodles and oodles of choices from "Tear Jerking Movies" to "Science Club" to "Computer Games" and many others.  There are literally pages the kids get to choose from considering we have around 1300 students and we don't want clubs very big.  Very few are religious based.  If you're not doing well in some classes you might even be assigned a club rather than having a choice - a tutoring type of club.  Kids who don't want a club don't have to pick one.  There are Study Hall options.

 

The point is that if one religion is represented, then all need to have equal access. This does not happen. A secular club is not an alternative.

 

Any religion is welcome to be represented.  If a student doesn't see a club they like, they can start one.  My youngest son started an Improv Club his junior year and they even performed in our Talent Show at the end of the year.

 

Done correctly, there is no problem with religious clubs being in schools.  This is quite likely why courts have supported them.  Public schools serve the public - not individuals with their ideas of what should or shouldn't be there.

 

If a religious club were denied, they would win in court too if denied locally.

 

But as mentioned before, the club in the OP is not religious and at our school, we don't have clubs that are misnamed.  Their title gives a good idea as to what is happening in the club.  One doesn't join the Military Club and expect pacifism - or tear jerking movies - or even robotics.  I can see high school kids having a field day if we suddenly renamed many of our clubs to be something totally different than what they do.  The Improv Club itself could have a blast with it.

 

This club would be welcome at our school, but it would need to be renamed.  I even know a teacher who would probably love to supervise it.  In their "small print" giving a larger description they could probably show their association.

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Usually clubs aren't ones families enroll in, they are on campus, typically after school, for students to go to on their own. Many times there isn't even a sign up, you just show up when you can.

 

There have only been a couple of clubs that got too full and needed to have sign ups. I can't even remember what they were.

I think the Good News clubs are elementary. I know the "Beach Clubs" here are (after school bible club that meets at a church, basically VBS during the school year, one afternoon a week), and parents definitely have to sign permission forms and notify the school that their child has permission to walk/be bussed to the church.

 

When I was in school, we had "Weekday religious education", where one day a week in elementary, the Catholics would go to their class, the non-anabaptist Protestants to theirs, and the Mennonite kids to theirs (all at the Mennonite church a block from the school) and the one Jewish kid in my class and I would spend a blissful afternoon in the school library. Him, because the local tabernacle preferred to do Hebrew School on their own schedule, me because my parents believed in separation of church and state and felt it was inappropriate to have kids taken out of school for religious activities in a public school. I believe the program was dropped after a few years-it had come in largely because the city had annexed a part of the county that was almost 100% Mennonite, and the Mennonte parents wanted it and were willing to offer space for any religious group that wanted to offer classes in that time.

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Perhaps this happens in other countries or even maybe still in a few schools in our country, but in general here (legally here) this can not happen unless it is voluntary, and for youngsters, with parent permission.

 

In our current day of oodles of testing, I'd find it odd if they pulled any kids out of the main classes.

 

At my school, clubs are during the day in their own special time slot. Kids have oodles and oodles of choices from "Tear Jerking Movies" to "Science Club" to "Computer Games" and many others. There are literally pages the kids get to choose from considering we have around 1300 students and we don't want clubs very big. Very few are religious based. If you're not doing well in some classes you might even be assigned a club rather than having a choice - a tutoring type of club. Kids who don't want a club don't have to pick one. There are Study Hall options.

 

 

Any religion is welcome to be represented. If a student doesn't see a club they like, they can start one. My youngest son started an Improv Club his junior year and they even performed in our Talent Show at the end of the year.

 

Done correctly, there is no problem with religious clubs being in schools. This is quite likely why courts have supported them. Public schools serve the public - not individuals with their ideas of what should or shouldn't be there.

 

If a religious club were denied, they would win in court too if denied locally.

 

But as mentioned before, the club in the OP is not religious and at our school, we don't have clubs that are misnamed. Their title gives a good idea as to what is happening in the club. One doesn't join the Military Club and expect pacifism - or tear jerking movies - or even robotics. I can see high school kids having a field day if we suddenly renamed many of our clubs to be something totally different than what they do. The Improv Club itself could have a blast with it.

 

This club would be welcome at our school, but it would need to be renamed. I even know a teacher who would probably love to supervise it. In their "small print" giving a larger description they could probably show their association.

As I mentioned previously, neither this club, nor the good news club are student started or lead. The comparison to student started and led clubs is inaccurate.

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The Good News Club has nothing to do with the news. I mean, someone could think it is about creating better journalists. So I guess their name is deceiving, too. 

 

I was thinking the same thing last night after I went to bed, and came up with an alternative to ASS:

 

Better News Club - for spreading atheism and improving journalism skills. They could compare the quality of various news sources etc.

 

This probably wouldn't be shocking to most people, but it probably would be quite upsetting to the Good News people.

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That would have been quite a massive undertaking of deception.

 

There is nothing to discuss.  There is no proof of a Satan.  The fact people believe there is a Satan is not proof.  I don't know what kind of discussion we could really have about that.  It would be very similar to discussing unicorns. 

 

What I don't understand is the double standard here. So many times on this forum I have seen posters saying a certain word should not be used because it is offensive to a certain part of the population and therefore the user is showing their intolerance or bigotry in using it. Well why can't you understand it when you (general you)  happen to not be the one offended The word Satan means something to certain parts of the population and using it is provocative to them. Why is it ok to be sensitive to some peoples feelings and not to others. To me that is hypocritical.

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Mercy, that's an opinion you hold.

 

In your opinion, Satan, demons and Jesus are not myths.

 

Honestly, this is what bugs me about religion. Believe what you want, for yourself, all you like but don't state it as an objective truth. It can ever only be subjective.

 

I was gone this week and just read her post.

How do you explain things moving in her home by themselves?  That would freak me out, for sure. 

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