Comparing Jacobs Algebra books with Arbor Center's JA, CC books

[Leftyplayer]

Please help me compare the Arbor Center's algebra books (Jousting Armadillos, CC, etc) with the Jacobs algebra books (I see that there are two 'Elementary Algebra' and 'Human Endeavor'). I'm first trying to discern the differences between the two Jacobs books and would love your feedback on that. What's the difference? Which would you use?

 

And then what would be your preference between the Jacobs book vs. the Arbor books? Would you use both sets or is there too much overlap to make working through both worth it?

 

For background - It would be for my 7th grader/ 12 year old, who is quite good at math and relatively enjoys it.

 

Oh, and ps I'm also seeing a lot about AoPS and would love to hear more about that one relative to the other two as well. I see that they have videos and workbooks and online classes and am a bit overwhelmed about what is actually needed to get a 7th grader well-prepped (even a bit ahead) for high school math.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Leftyplayer

[Chrysalis Academy]

So my dd has done all three of the Arbor books, and she did the first ~6 chapters of Jacobs Elementary Algebra.  She did Jousting Armadillos first, which covers single-variable equations.  Then she did Jacobs up through chapter 6, which was mostly review. She vastly preferred the presentation style of the Arbor books and asked if she could use the two Algebra books - Crocodiles and Chuckles - instead of continuing with Jacobs.  Which she did.

 

The author has said that the Arbor books are kind of a mash-up of Jacobs Elementary Algebra plus Math a Human Endeavor - it has more of the logic, and puzzley aspects of HE incorporated into the Algebra content that Elementary Algebra covers.  The presentation style is related, but it's much more conversational in the Arbor books - you feel like the author is directly addressing you, asking you questions, waiting for your answer, asking further questions, etc.  It made it very easy for her to work through on her own, which was her preference.  She found that Jacobs was more dry, and that the lessons didn't always explain what was going on - which I think is true, I think the idea behind Jacobs is that an instructor is meant to be presenting the lessons, with discussions and examples, and then there is discovery built into the structure of the problem sets.  But there is less hand-holding if you are using the textbook on its own.

 

The big downside of the Arbor books is that there are a lot of errors in the answer books.  Hopefully that will get corrected in re-prints, but it was a serious enough issue that I was extremely annoyed to have paid as much as I did for the answer/test books (which really are indispensable).

 

As far as the difference between Jacobs EA and MHE - EA is Algebra 1.  I'm not exactly sure what MHE is or when exactly in the sequence it fits.  From posts I've read here, doing it after EA is almost too late? But it's not a traditional PreAlgebra either.  I actually just got my hands on a copy, gifted from someone who knows I'm a geek, and haven't gone through it really yet. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

 

Yes, I do think that there is too much overlap to use both programs, I'd pick one or the other. 

[Leftyplayer]

Thank you, Rose. That helps a lot! I've been looking at the few samples I could find of both, but as you know it's very hard to compare scope with so little info. So that comparison is very much appreciated. Bummer about the errors in the answer booklet. I agree that it's expensive. But you're saying it's still worth getting?

[Chrysalis Academy]

Thank you, Rose. That helps a lot! I've been looking at the few samples I could find of both, but as you know it's very hard to compare scope with so little info. So that comparison is very much appreciated. Bummer about the errors in the answer booklet. I agree that it's expensive. But you're saying it's still worth getting?

 

I wouldn't try and pull it off without the answer book - it has explanations and worked examples for some of the challenging problems.  It also has the chapter tests and answers

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

So my dd has done all three of the Arbor books, and she did the first ~6 chapters of Jacobs Elementary Algebra.  She did Jousting Armadillos first, which covers single-variable equations.  Then she did Jacobs up through chapter 6, which was mostly review. She vastly preferred the presentation style of the Arbor books and asked if she could use the two Algebra books - Crocodiles and Chuckles - instead of continuing with Jacobs.  Which she did.

 

The author has said that the Arbor books are kind of a mash-up of Jacobs Elementary Algebra plus Math a Human Endeavor - it has more of the logic, and puzzley aspects of HE incorporated into the Algebra content that Elementary Algebra covers.  The presentation style is related, but it's much more conversational in the Arbor books - you feel like the author is directly addressing you, asking you questions, waiting for your answer, asking further questions, etc.  It made it very easy for her to work through on her own, which was her preference.  She found that Jacobs was more dry, and that the lessons didn't always explain what was going on - which I think is true, I think the idea behind Jacobs is that an instructor is meant to be presenting the lessons, with discussions and examples, and then there is discovery built into the structure of the problem sets.  But there is less hand-holding if you are using the textbook on its own.

 

The big downside of the Arbor books is that there are a lot of errors in the answer books.  Hopefully that will get corrected in re-prints, but it was a serious enough issue that I was extremely annoyed to have paid as much as I did for the answer/test books (which really are indispensable).

 

As far as the difference between Jacobs EA and MHE - EA is Algebra 1.  I'm not exactly sure what MHE is or when exactly in the sequence it fits.  From posts I've read here, doing it after EA is almost too late? But it's not a traditional PreAlgebra either.  I actually just got my hands on a copy, gifted from someone who knows I'm a geek, and haven't gone through it really yet. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

 

Yes, I do think that there is too much overlap to use both programs, I'd pick one or the other. 

 

What did/are you going to use after the 3 Arbor Algebra books?  They have been a perfect fit for my dd, too, and though we probably have 1-1.5 years to go, I'm trying to figure out what to use next.

[Chrysalis Academy]

What did/are you going to use after the 3 Arbor Algebra books?  They have been a perfect fit for my dd, too, and though we probably have 1-1.5 years to go, I'm trying to figure out what to use next.

 

Well, we were going to do Geometry next, and I spent a lot of time looking at options and picked A Fresh Approach, because it's written in a style I thought she'd like - it's written to the student, feels almost like a worktext.  But as we were getting to the end of Chuckles (the third Arbor book), Shannon was just not 100% there with a few of the advanced topics, so I decided to have her do the Let's Go Learn DOMA Algebra assessment.  Sure enough, she had mastery on 8/11 of the constructs, and wasn't quite there with factoring polynomials or quadratics, but also had some issues with graphing (writing equations for graphs of parallel and perpendicular lines).  These were all topics that I knew would be reviewed in Algebra 2, but I decided I didn't want to stop and walk away from Algebra for a whole year, leaving this stuff hanging.  So we decided to to VideoText Algebra. I had investigated it while I was looking for a Geometry program.  We both took a look at it and I had a long conversation with the creator of the program on the phone, and decided that spending the time really solidifying the Algebra skills in a systematic and logical order made more sense than stopping in the middle of Algebra and coming back to it after a year. So that's what we're doing now. We did the first two modules of Videotext - which reviewed basic arithmetic, and single variable equations - very quickly, testing through the lessons. When we start back up again we'll finish Videotext, which at some point will stop being review and will get into new, Algebra 2 material. The videotext Scope & Sequence is nontraditional, but covers Algebra 1 & Algebra 2.  So, that's the plan, and it's working very well at this point.

[Leftyplayer]

Rose, that's very good to know that Videotext is working well. I'm looking at that one also. Have you found that it's a good program to come AFTER the Arbor books, or if you could go back in time, would you skip the Arbor books and go straight into Videotext?

 

Maybe I'm pushing things too quickly. I have to decide a pace for us and that's the first part I'm struggling with. She's starting 7th grade now. We've had a relatively solid covering of pre-algebra and she's done well understanding negative/positive numbers, exponents, decimals, square roots, etc. I'm trying to decide what we should spend the next years on. On the list of consideration are the Arbor books (and Jacobs, though now that I know they overlap so much, I'm opting for the Arbor books), Videotext and AoPS (now that I took a closer look and see it's got videos to go with the workbook). I'm not sure whether I should plan multiple of these in some sort of sequence, or it it's all an overlap/ redundant and I should just pick one to cover the Algebra (I and II), then move on to Geometry in early High School. I do like the idea of not separating Algebra I and II by a year - makes sense to keep going. But besides that, just struggling to organize/ choose from those three curriculum.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Leftyplayer

[Chrysalis Academy]

Well, Videotext is flexible, in that you can take it as a one year, two year, or even three year course, depending on when you start and how you pace it, and you can "claim credit" for PreAlgebra, Algebra 1 & Algebra 2.  Honestly, I don't know how well it would have worked if we had done it from the beginning.  It really gets into the why the math works, and it doesn't have a ton of problems, so I can see that a younger kid who was just getting started in Algebra might not have enough hooks to hang the knowledge onto. What we're finding is that it's such a great explanation of whys and hows, and it's filling in holes, but it is really like a bunch of "a-ha" moments that are built on having some understanding or experience with the concepts already. So given that, I don't think I'd have wanted to skip all that we did before. But at the same time, it's making me feel confident that we're covering everything in a systematic way and not leaving any conceptual gaps - none of the things we've used before have made me feel that confidence.    So I'm pretty happy with the path we've taken.  We're still going to be "ahead" in that she'll have finished Algebra 2 at the end of 9th and will do Geometry in 10th.  Given that she's not interested in a math or science field, that's almost more accelerated than I want to be, because we still have to come up with two more years of math in high school! Probably we'll shift to DE and let her get her math requirements out of the way at the CC at that point, but we'll have to cross that bridge when we come to it, I've learned it is pointless to plan too far ahead.

 

I definitely think there is no reason to push things quickly with a 7th grader - relax and realize that you have two full years to cover Algebra, so you really do have time to do it twice.  You could do Arbor then AoPS, or Arbor then Videotext, and either path could work out very well depending on what materials click with dd.  Some of the best advice I've seen here on the forums from the math & science gurus is that you want to make sure that Algebra is rock-solid, it's the best preparation you can give a kid.  Doing it twice, the second time with a more challenging set of materials, is totally legit, I think.

 

You may find she really likes JA but then runs into some issues with the Arbor Algebra books - having the idea that VT or AoPS is there as a backup/second run-through will let you keep breathing! At least that's what I found. I don't regret using the Arbor books, because dd loved them so much and gained a lot of confidence in her math abilities, but *I* wasn't confident that everything was as solid as it should be.  Using VT is giving me that peace of mind, which is priceless.

[Leftyplayer]

Thank you, Rose! That helps me so much to understand how the material could be used, and also a good reminder not to rush it or overwhelm us/ her.

 

This in particular, rings very true and I'll take it to heart

 

Honestly, I don't know how well it would have worked if we had done it from the beginning.  It really gets into the why the math works, and it doesn't have a ton of problems, so I can see that a younger kid who was just getting started in Algebra might not have enough hooks to hang the knowledge onto.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Leftyplayer