Highs school math help please...

[susanah4]

We have been working on Algebra for over a year now (going into 10th grade this year)  and it's just not happening.  We did Hands on Equations which she seemed to understand.  Tried to go to Teaching Textbooks which was just too fast.  Next we tried Keys to Algebra, but it is just not sticking.  She can get some of the harder concepts, but just keeps forgetting basic rules such as x + y is not the same as xy and I can tell her over and over and she'll have it for a while and then she just forgets.  I think the letters mixed with numbers is just too much for her right now.  Thinking of dropping it for a while and just working on basic math skills such as exponents, percentage, multiplying fractions, etc.  Suggestions for a good high school basic math course?  Do they exist or does everyone just keep plugging at Algebra until they get it?  Am I making a mistake putting the Algebra away?

[OneStepAtATime]

Maybe Basic College Math, by Lial's?  It starts with real basics.  The link below is to 4th edition.  Cheaper than the latest edition.  I think I have 2nd or 3rd edition.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-College-Mathematics-Elayn-Martin-Gay/dp/0321649400

 

How did she do with Pre-Algebra?  Might she need to redo Pre-Algebra?

 

Here is a text that MIGHT help but I would not buy from here.  This site allows you to look at the book, though.  Amazon usually has them cheaper for purchasing:

http://www.wiesereducational.com/products/pre-algebra-textbook-mm7441.htm

 

There is also the Hands-On math series designed for kids that struggle with math.  I have not used them but I hear they are pretty good and they cover Pre-Algebra, Algebra, and Geometry...

http://www.wiesereducational.com/preview/hands-on-math-series-wl7301.htm

 

Have you tried having a reference card or starting a math notebook with resources she can refer to for operations and definitions and stuff?  DD has a math notebook.  She has a list of and explanation for operations/algorithms/concepts along with an example or two (limited wording so she isn't bogged down in text), her math facts reference chart, definitions, a ruler, a protractor, etc.  It helps for her to be able to look stuff up when her brain is on overload.

 

How solid is she on real basics, like subitization skills?

[1shortmomto4]

Have you figured out her learning method strengths?  Some kids need mastery and some spiral.  When I see that you used HOA and then went to TT - that is a big difference in learning style.  You went from more hands-on and a short interactive video (super short) to a computer screen that introduces one small piece and about 5 or 6 problems for practice.  HOA really isn't an algebra program but more of a way to train the brain to understand the concepts of Algebra - balancing both sides of the equation.  The Keys to Algebra are to teach the main skills but is not complete and may not have enough practice for her to truly master the topic.

 

Which math programs have you used over the years?  Did you switch a lot?  Does your dd prefer a lot of white space on the page?  Do lessons stick with more of a hands-on approach?  Was she strong in the skills needed for Algebra - fractions and division. 

 

You might look at MUS and they do have placement tests.  They offer lots of white space and lots of problems to master the skills over many days.  Many like CLE and maybe taking the placement tests could pinpoint some areas that may need fixed.  MUS is mastery vs CLE is spiral which is something to consider when deciding on a program. 

 

 

[Kat w]

I don't think you're making a mistake putting the algebra away.

 

So very many times when I put something away ( and I have to do this alot with my ds12 and had to when my dd24 was homeschooling) and it always amazes me when we go back, how much they can absorb and will work with that...even alot if times soaring in that topic that I put down .

I think this is for 2 reasons.

1. Their brain shuts it off at some point and all the work and trying different programs makes a hill of beans and it's wasted effort and adds loads more frustration.

 

2. They've had time to absorb/process what you were trying to teach them.

 

3. Going back to other things, build LOADS of confidence . when they loose confidence, count 'er done lol. And will make them loathe that subject .

 

Ok that was 3 not 2 lol

 

I would definitely put it down, go back to what she has done well in, work on that then add other things like you described above.

 

With us and it sounds like we have similar situations, it's going to be about using more than one curriculum . and it's sounds like alot, it's really not as much as it sounds. Once they are getting it from different angles, it will start to click and boom....off goes your daughter :) uts like they go..hey...I CAN DO this and they speed off and moms like....eh? Where'd that come from lol.

 

I agree finding her learning style in this will help ( that can be tough esp with high school algebra)

 

But I would go back to what she's good at. Then add other components in.

 

Use 2 or even 3 algebra curriculums.

 

With my kids. And esp with algebra, I fold in mastery first, then spiral. Let's face it....HS algebra is HARD lol

 

I think there has to be some spiral. But mastery being the focus. Spiral will cement/aide in that mastery.

 

Fir HS we used saxon algebra but ibmade mistakes with it. I didn't do all the practice problems in the book and I didn't use all the practice sheets that come with the program.

And there are ALOT of new and better curriculums out now .

I would research all the HS algebra programs. And do some of it with her. Let her help in the decision making which will help her to want to work on it.

 

If she has a say, shell be more exited to get books in the mail, and to start.

 

But only after she has built confidence and some review .

 

Her building confidence will be KEY. When they lose confidence , they will deflate and...ain't gettin Nuttin out if em then! Lol

Edited July 31, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

PS. I wish I had used more than one curriculum with my girls in the HS maths.

 

I did with ds20 and it made all the difference in the world and made college algebra easier for him.

Before he left to go on deployment for a year he did 2 classes at the comm. Coll.

Big big difference. And my oldest daughter is an accelerated learner.

THAT is the difference using more than one curriculum made.

[susanah4]

Maybe Basic College Math, by Lial's?  It starts with real basics.  The link below is to 4th edition.  Cheaper than the latest edition.  I think I have 2nd or 3rd edition.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-College-Mathematics-Elayn-Martin-Gay/dp/0321649400

 

How did she do with Pre-Algebra?  Might she need to redo Pre-Algebra?

 

Here is a text that MIGHT help but I would not buy from here.  This site allows you to look at the book, though.  Amazon usually has them cheaper for purchasing:

http://www.wiesereducational.com/products/pre-algebra-textbook-mm7441.htm

 

There is also the Hands-On math series designed for kids that struggle with math.  I have not used them but I hear they are pretty good and they cover Pre-Algebra, Algebra, and Geometry...

http://www.wiesereducational.com/preview/hands-on-math-series-wl7301.htm

 

Have you tried having a reference card or starting a math notebook with resources she can refer to for operations and definitions and stuff?  DD has a math notebook.  She has a list of and explanation for operations/algorithms/concepts along with an example or two (limited wording so she isn't bogged down in text), her math facts reference chart, definitions, a ruler, a protractor, etc.  It helps for her to be able to look stuff up when her brain is on overload.

 

How solid is she on real basics, like subitization skills?

I love the idea of a math notebook!  That might really be what she needs.

Okay, I had to look up the word subitzation...I think she's alright in that area.  :)

I think her computation skills are fine.    She just gets so easily confused in the process and what rules apply where.  For example she is now learning to simplify rational expressions.  She is struggling with the difference of x+y vs. xy even though she knows addition is different from multiplication when there are numbers.  But she can't remember when the x touches the y it is multiplication. The letters are throwing her.  And she simplified one fraction where everything canceled out on top and insteading putting a 1 there she decided it was 0 and the answer was undefined or infinity ( something leftover in her brain from a lesson a few weeks ago).   But she breezed through the lesson on factoring second degree polynomials which I thought was kind of hard.   I think she just sees a jumble of letters in a problem now. 

[susanah4]

Have you figured out her learning method strengths?  Some kids need mastery and some spiral.  When I see that you used HOA and then went to TT - that is a big difference in learning style.  You went from more hands-on and a short interactive video (super short) to a computer screen that introduces one small piece and about 5 or 6 problems for practice.  HOA really isn't an algebra program but more of a way to train the brain to understand the concepts of Algebra - balancing both sides of the equation.  The Keys to Algebra are to teach the main skills but is not complete and may not have enough practice for her to truly master the topic.

 

Which math programs have you used over the years?  Did you switch a lot?  Does your dd prefer a lot of white space on the page?  Do lessons stick with more of a hands-on approach?  Was she strong in the skills needed for Algebra - fractions and division. 

 

You might look at MUS and they do have placement tests.  They offer lots of white space and lots of problems to master the skills over many days.  Many like CLE and maybe taking the placement tests could pinpoint some areas that may need fixed.  MUS is mastery vs CLE is spiral which is something to consider when deciding on a program. 

The only strength I have really figured out is she does best with visual and auditory at the same time.   Just visual or just auditory she seems to lose her focus quickly.  That's why I really liked TT.   And yes, we switched math curriculum often.   Some would click for a while and then it would just fall apart.  Thanks for the suggestions.

[OneStepAtATime]

If you have hopped curriculum because she keeps hitting walls and is struggling this much, have you had any formal evaluations?  

[susanah4]

If you have hopped curriculum because she keeps hitting walls and is struggling this much, have you had any formal evaluations?  

No, I haven't.  Where would I even start with this?

[susanah4]

I don't think you're making a mistake putting the algebra away.

 

So very many times when I put something away ( and I have to do this alot with my ds12 and had to when my dd24 was homeschooling) and it always amazes me when we go back, how much they can absorb and will work with that...even alot if times soaring in that topic that I put down .

I think this is for 2 reasons.

1. Their brain shuts it off at some point and all the work and trying different programs makes a hill of beans and it's wasted effort and adds loads more frustration.

 

2. They've had time to absorb/process what you were trying to teach them.

 

3. Going back to other things, build LOADS of confidence . when they loose confidence, count 'er done lol. And will make them loathe that subject .

 

Ok that was 3 not 2 lol

 

I would definitely put it down, go back to what she has done well in, work on that then add other things like you described above.

 

With us and it sounds like we have similar situations, it's going to be about using more than one curriculum . and it's sounds like alot, it's really not as much as it sounds. Once they are getting it from different angles, it will start to click and boom....off goes your daughter :) uts like they go..hey...I CAN DO this and they speed off and moms like....eh? Where'd that come from lol.

 

I agree finding her learning style in this will help ( that can be tough esp with high school algebra)

 

But I would go back to what she's good at. Then add other components in.

 

Use 2 or even 3 algebra curriculums.

 

With my kids. And esp with algebra, I fold in mastery first, then spiral. Let's face it....HS algebra is HARD lol

 

I think there has to be some spiral. But mastery being the focus. Spiral will cement/aide in that mastery.

 

Fir HS we used saxon algebra but ibmade mistakes with it. I didn't do all the practice problems in the book and I didn't use all the practice sheets that come with the program.

And there are ALOT of new and better curriculums out now .

I would research all the HS algebra programs. And do some of it with her. Let her help in the decision making which will help her to want to work on it.

 

If she has a say, shell be more exited to get books in the mail, and to start.

 

But only after she has built confidence and some review .

 

Her building confidence will be KEY. When they lose confidence , they will deflate and...ain't gettin Nuttin out if em then! Lol 

When you say you worked on mastery, then spiral, how exactly did you do this?  Switch back and forth between curricula?  Or with review sheets of some sort?

( I don't know how only part of your post on this board)  :)

[Storygirl]

I also read your thread on the high school board. You mentioned there that you thought she had some kind of a math disability but didn't know how to have her tested.

 

Federal law (as long as you reside in the US) mandates that the local public school district must evaluate all students in their district who are suspected of having a learning disability for free. All students, not just those who are enrolled. So the public school will evaluate homeschoolers. To request evaluations, write a letter to your local special education department and hand deliver it (or send it via certified mail, so you know it has been received). They have 30 days to decide if there is enough evidence to suggested the child should be evaluated. They have to either approve or deny evaluations in writing. They should have a meeting to discuss this with you, at which time they would have you sign the paperwork approving them to do the testing. They then have 60 days to run the tests and write their evaluation report.

 

The school can tell you if she would qualify for a math SLD (specific learning disability) at their school. And they can tell you what they would do to help her. In other words, what kind of accommodations, modifications, or extra help they would provide.

 

Another choice is to arrange for private evaluations through an educational psychologist or a neuropsychologist. A neuropsychologist will do many tests to determine what the underlying problem might be, whereas the school may tell you that there IS a problem but may not be able to explain WHY she has a problem. So there are benefits to private testing, however there is also a cost. They are often very expensive.

 

Two of my children have had both school testing and private testing, and there are others on the LC forum who have, as well. So ask your detailed questions, and you will be able to get a lot of help and advice :) .

[OneStepAtATime]

No, I haven't.  Where would I even start with this?

You might look at getting a referral to a neuropsychologist.  They would probably be the most likely to be able to tweak out specific underlying weaknesses you can target but also hidden strengths you might not even realize she has.  I would search around to find one that understands math struggles in particular.  Does she have any other areas that she struggles or struggled in the past?  Any areas that are great strengths for her?

 

ETA:  I missed Storygirl's response. She is right, if you are in the U.S. the local public school system can be required to look into testing your child.  Some are good at evaluations but keep in mind that their focus is usually NOT the same as you the parent.  Mostly they are looking at what needs to be addressed so the child can function at sort of close to grade level so the child can keep moving through their academics at the pace of other same age kids in the school system.  There isn't usually nearly the detail of a private evaluation.  They may be able to tell you she has a math LD but since research on math LDs is decades behind that of reading/writing LDs they probably won't be able to go much beyond that.  Ask around, though.  You might get lucky.  The flip side of that is that not all neuropsychs and edupsychs are created equal, either.  Ask around before you commit to anything.  You could even send in the letter of request to the school system and get your child scheduled for a private evaluation while you research since there is usually a long lead time for both.  Cancel if you find something else that works better.

Edited July 31, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Kat w]

No no...both together and smae day.

 

So, do a mastery program first.

Then do the spiral last ( review).

 

You said above the 2 different learning styles. For our family , thsts been a running theme.

 

You could even target it more and do the spiral esp. Where she is struggling or needs the most review .

[Kat w]

I agree with onestep on the eval.

I assumed that had already been done.

 

That would be a good thing to get started now.

[Kat w]

And I don't use just worksheets , this will b incomplete .

 

Buy a mastery program .

Buy a separate spiral program.

 

Then do both in same day.

 

Master program first, then take a break, do spiral program.

 

2complete curriculums.

 

That's what I do and found success.

Trying to identify the target areas that need working on is difficult and incomplete when you don't have that spiral program to go along with , *to help you identify the weak areas*.

 

Trying to just pull in worksheets won't give you the benefit of using 2 actual curriculum.

[OneStepAtATime]

For mastery plus spiral you could use something like CLE that already includes lots of spiral review and just work with her daily on a new concept introduced until it is solid through manipulative and a dry erase board and extra practice pages separately. Or you could buy something like CLE for the spiral and add in something like CTC math for additional instruction and practice to mastery.

[Kat w]

Yes. I would definitely recommend using 2 separate complete curriculums. Use them both daily.

 

From someone whose been there, homeschooling highschool kids, 1 accelerated, 1 with dyslexia and other learning challenges 3 being completely in the middle lol

 

For my younger kids being very learning challenged, I use 4 complete curriculums everyday.

 

It doesn't really take as much time as you would think, plis, highschool.... Name of the game is math and writing .

 

If math is a struggle , thsts what needs to b focused on first and foremost , esp. If there are challenges in that area .

 

If she's college bound. It makes a difference .

Buy math will need to be the focus. Spending a few spread out hours a day on math, isn't out if line if there are math challenges.

 

Learning grammar is taught to learn to write.

I wouldn't focus on grammar unless there are challenges there too.

 

Focus on math, then work on writing. Taking lots of breaks is a good idea and key to success when dealing with a challenge and 2 different curriculums .

Edited July 31, 2016 by Kat w

[Kat w]

In all 3 of my big kids college enc101 . not one lesson , semester , project, nothing was on grammar.

 

They assume you know it and the focus is writing.

You write papers in every class except math and the writing is what their grades are based on.

 

So at this point in her school career, the focus shifts to math first, then writing.

 

Assuming, there isn't a challenge with grammar and she has a solid foundation in it.

[Kat w]

Another good reason in these situations to use more than 1 math program, when they get to college math ? You can guarantee the material will be presented in a different way.

 

Using 2 curriculums helps to combat this.

I did it with you youngest if the 3 BC....when my girls got to college math....even my accelerated learner had trouble and had to do intro math , which is not a college credit, to learn the style and format in which they teach. Then boom. Off to the races she went lol.

 

I did 2 with my youngest if the 3 and he tested right into college algebra and got an A

 

Of course then, his sisters said...why didn't you do that for us mama!!! Lol.

Edited July 31, 2016 by Kat w

[1shortmomto4]

I've graduated two thus far - 1 graduated CC (hearing impaired) and 1 has 1 more semester (dyslexia/aversion to math).  Oldest we used BJU and MUS in the high school years and a year of Math Relief (or something like that).  Placed into Calculus at the CC.  DD did Algebra 1 (Fresh Approach) MUS (Algebra I/II) and Geometry.  She, too, placed into Calculus although she didn't need that high level math for her teaching degree.  I only used one curriculum at a time but focused on mastery.  It was important to teach to their strength - both needed lots of white space, some lecture with a face.  My dd does well with audio but only for a short span of time.  What worked was the amount of practice problems and the ability to stay on the topic a bit longer or move forward as needed.  Now my middle child, who struggles the most with dyslexia, MUS has been the answer and if I introduced two different programs he'd shut down.  Just very overwhelming.  Your dd is old enough to work through a discussion on what works for her - what happens when she begins to struggle.  When you used the other curriculum and hit the wall there must have been something that was holding her back.  Have you ever tried something more in story format (unless she's dyslexic)?  I also wonder if she'd excel in geometry and give Algebra a breather - maybe her brain operates better with 3D type lessons?

 

Evaluations are good - especially if she has college plans.  If help is needed at the college level you'll need the paperwork/documentation in place.  If you have a slight idea of where she might attend check their website and see if they offer a placement test for math.  You could definitely get a feel for what is needed to be prepared.

 

As for college math - what I noticed was a big shift to word problems - so at some point that would be something to work on which something like Life of Fred might help.  I think what is missing from some math programs is Logic - not necessarily more problems.  Some kids really learn math in a different way than what we were exposed to back in the day.  ;-) 

 

 

[Heathermomster]

My favorite pre-algebra book is this standard McDougal-Littell classroom text.  We used that text in concert with HOE, algebra tiles, MUS blocks for integer math, math mnemonics, Khan Academy, and the galley method instructions from James Tanton.  Prior to algebra, we used the later chapters of Overcoming Difficulties with Number by Ronit Bird to shore up basic math.

 

Once DS masters a concept, he requires periodic review so that he does not forget.  

 

Hands down, my favorite algebra text is Lial's Introductory Algebra 8th Edition used in conjunction with the book A+ Beginning Algebra by Yang.  DS spent two years on algebra, and we broke the subject down into a 1A and 1B class.

 

I am not a fan of the Key to .... series.

 

IDK....  Public schools do not diagnose SLDs, but rather test to determine whether a student performs poorly enough to qualify for their IEP.  My son was diagnosed with a maths SLD after testing with a private neuropsychologist.  I suggest you save your money and go the private testing route.  After reading a description of your DD and fraction work, I'm curious to know what math she actually knows well.

 

 

[Heathermomster]

I've graduated two thus far - 1 graduated CC (hearing impaired) and 1 has 1 more semester (dyslexia/aversion to math).  Oldest we used BJU and MUS in the high school years and a year of Math Relief (or something like that).  Placed into Calculus at the CC.  DD did Algebra 1 (Fresh Approach) MUS (Algebra I/II) and Geometry.  She, too, placed into Calculus although she didn't need that high level math for her teaching degree.  I only used one curriculum at a time but focused on mastery.  It was important to teach to their strength - both needed lots of white space, some lecture with a face.  My dd does well with audio but only for a short span of time.  What worked was the amount of practice problems and the ability to stay on the topic a bit longer or move forward as needed.  Now my middle child, who struggles the most with dyslexia, MUS has been the answer and if I introduced two different programs he'd shut down.  Just very overwhelming.  Your dd is old enough to work through a discussion on what works for her - what happens when she begins to struggle.  When you used the other curriculum and hit the wall there must have been something that was holding her back.  Have you ever tried something more in story format (unless she's dyslexic)?  I also wonder if she'd excel in geometry and give Algebra a breather - maybe her brain operates better with 3D type lessons?

 

Evaluations are good - especially if she has college plans.  If help is needed at the college level you'll need the paperwork/documentation in place.  If you have a slight idea of where she might attend check their website and see if they offer a placement test for math.  You could definitely get a feel for what is needed to be prepared.

 

As for college math - what I noticed was a big shift to word problems - so at some point that would be something to work on which something like Life of Fred might help.  I think what is missing from some math programs is Logic - not necessarily more problems.  Some kids really learn math in a different way than what we were exposed to back in the day.  ;-) 

Math Relief?  Can we have a link for that please?  Never heard of that but it sounds interesting.

[Kanin]

What about the Dragonbox Algebra app on the iPad?  It's a fun game that teaches algebra with no numbers at first. It looks so fun, I'd like to play it!

 

http://dragonbox.com/algebra

 

Here is a video trailer for it:  

 

:)

[1shortmomto4]

Oops got the title wrong - not math relief (but I believe there is a program by that name) the one my DS used is called http://www.systemath.com/the-program.html. No, wait a minute, he used this one but he used another one based out of California.   Hmmmm... must go search the curriculum box.

 

I have not lost my mind or had a senior moment ;-) it is called mathrelief.com  -- we used the last part of the program to cover Alg 2 subjects and the systematic math for Algebra 1 topics if I recall.  He was definitely my guinea pig when it came to high school math but it was also during this time period that we discovered he was severely hearing impaired.  Go figure.  I was searching on the Cathy Duffy website and she now has a much more user friendly site with a lot of new stuff I have not seen before so perhaps there are some gems on her list.

Edited August 1, 2016 by 1shortmomto4

[Kat w]

The Cathy Duffy site is a good idea . there are ALOT of good programs out today .

I always feel really old saying that so...I try to avoid that phrase lol.

It's just true though. I really wish some if these programs had been out when my big kids were younger. Sigh

[Kat w]

Rainbow resouce reviews the programs they sell too.

Come to think of it, Cathy Duffy first, the when rainbow started really coming out ( they were just a couple people operation when we started) see???? OLD!lol

Again, that's why I avoid saying certain things, I haven't accepted the fact that I am almost a half a century old :-0

 

Those are the biggest helps to me today on curriculum reviews.

 

That's why I suggested her researching all of them.

So many good ones now, and so many places to get reviews,Even Amazon reviews.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Kat w

[susanah4]

Yes. I would definitely recommend using 2 separate complete curriculums. Use them both daily.

 

From someone whose been there, homeschooling highschool kids, 1 accelerated, 1 with dyslexia and other learning challenges 3 being completely in the middle lol

 

For my younger kids being very learning challenged, I use 4 complete curriculums everyday.

 

It doesn't really take as much time as you would think, plis, highschool.... Name of the game is math and writing .

 

If math is a struggle , thsts what needs to b focused on first and foremost , esp. If there are challenges in that area .

 

If she's college bound. It makes a difference .

Buy math will need to be the focus. Spending a few spread out hours a day on math, isn't out if line if there are math challenges.

 

Learning grammar is taught to learn to write.

I wouldn't focus on grammar unless there are challenges there too.

 

Focus on math, then work on writing. Taking lots of breaks is a good idea and key to success when dealing with a challenge and 2 different curriculums .

Thanks, that sounds good.  She doesn't really struggle in writing and grammar so I guess we will probably make those a low priority this year and really focus on math.

I don't know if she is college bound - I'm not sure if she will be able to keep up - but I didn't want to close the door either.  I was about ready to give up on Algebra though.  Thanks for the suggestions.

[susanah4]

What about the Dragonbox Algebra app on the iPad?  It's a fun game that teaches algebra with no numbers at first. It looks so fun, I'd like to play it!

 

http://dragonbox.com/algebra

 

Here is a video trailer for it:  

 

:)

Thanks!  That looks awesome and she loves her iPad!