AoPS questions - worth the expense? Where to start?

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I've been thinking about AoPS for a while now, mostly because it gets mentioned on here so much and in such a favourable way.

 

I'm just trying to work out if it's worth the expense to get a book to Australia and if I do get one, which one/s.

 

My daughter is 10 yr old, she's about half-way through LoF Beginning Algebra and just starting a grade 10 Australian textbook. We also use Zaccaro.

 

She's naturally capable in maths, hates any type of repetition, resists showing working and likes novelty.  So, I like to have a range of things on the go so she can pick her flavour of the day. Zaccaro has been the flavour of recent days. If only Who Wants to Be a Googolionairre really paid out! 

 

She also really needs to understand the 'why' behind things. She won't accept 'rules' and she questions if there could exist exceptions to them. 

 

In recent months her attitude has started to change with maths too. She used to resist trying a problem if she didn't immediately know what to do. Her fear of 'failure' held her back from trying.  Now, she seems to enjoy the challenge more  and gets genuine enjoyment out of things like geometry proofs.

 

I've looked at the excerpts and pre-tests on the AoPS website (repeatedly). The pre-algebra examples are concepts we've already covered.

 

The intro to algebra looks just about right. She'd nail the fundamentals on the pre-test and possibly the problem solving on a good day. I'm hesitating to just jump into this one though, because I get the impression that AoPS is really quite challenging. 

 

 

I guess my main questions are these:

 

- is it really worth the money?  It will cost me $140 to get one book.  :scared:

 

- how hard is it really? Should I just jump in and get Intro to Algebra?  :wacko:

 

- if we're enjoying Zaccaro and powering through Fred, is this even necessary?  :confused:

 

 

Thoughts and experiences?

Edited July 29, 2016 by chocolate-chip chooky

[Arcadia]

Would she be okay with an online book? Then no shipping charges. While my kids prefer the softcopy, they don't mind the online book if we do work at the library on a hot day.

 

Another way would be to get her an Alcumus account and set the questions to either prealgebra or intro to algebra book. I would actually set to the prealgebra book just for her to get use to Alcumus and build her confidence.

 

ETA:

Alcumus account is free. There is an authorisation form for under 13 that I just fill up, took a photo and emailed back to AoPS.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Arcadia

[mathnerd]

There are e-books available for AOPS if the cost of textbooks is prohibitive. https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/store/online

 

[SierraNevada]

Depending on what side of Australia you are on and/or if you want to get up that early, she could do the online class with online book. Overall more money but you don't have to pay to ship the books and you get a teacher for it.

 

We have used LoF, DS reads through Zaccaro Algebra for fun ( but doesn't work through it as a curriculum), and currently use Aops.

 

I would think the Algeba would be a fine place to start. The Pre/Post tests on their site are much easier than actual class material. I think they are more designed to test if you have had the basic math areas covered, but not in the Aops way or depth. We only did LoF Pre-A, but to compare Aops Pre-A was much much harder.

 

If I were in your boat I would probably skip buying the books for now and just do the online Alcumus-free database of problems. If she really falls in love with that style of math and wants to drop the others, then I would do it.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Would she be okay with an online book? Then no shipping charges. While my kids prefer the softcopy, they don't mind the online book if we do work at the library on a hot day.

 

Another way would be to get her an Alcumus account and set the questions to either prealgebra or intro to algebra book. I would actually set to the prealgebra book just for her to get use to Alcumus and build her confidence.

 

Thanks Arcadia.

And thanks Mathnerd too. I think you were posting at the same time.

 

E-book... that's an option I'll have to consider. It still will cost me $80. Yikes. We generally do best with a book in front of us, but I think I'll have to strongly consider this. I could print pages out as we go, maybe. 

 

I can't get Alcumus to open. What is it?

Edited July 29, 2016 by chocolate-chip chooky

[Arcadia]

The online book does not allow printing. It is disabled.

 

Alcumus info and registration is here

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/alcumus

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Depending on what side of Australia you are on and/or if you want to get up that early, she could do the online class with online book. Overall more money but you don't have to pay to ship the books and you get a teacher for it.

 

We have used LoF, DS reads through Zaccaro Algebra for fun ( but doesn't work through it as a curriculum), and currently use Aops.

 

I would think the Algeba would be a fine place to start. The Pre/Post tests on their site are much easier than actual class material. I think they are more designed to test if you have had the basic math areas covered, but not in the Aops way or depth. We only did LoF Pre-A, but to compare Aops Pre-A was much much harder.

 

If I were in your boat I would probably skip buying the books for now and just do the online Alcumus-free database of problems. If she really falls in love with that style of math and wants to drop the others, then I would do it.

 

Bold bits - that's exactly my concern. Thanks for clarifying - much appreciated!

[chocolate-chip chooky]

The online book does not allow printing. It is disabled.

 

Alcumus info and registration is here

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/alcumus

 

Printing is disabled??

There goes the e-book as an option. I can't see us doing textbook-style maths at a computer.

 

Our maths is usually done sitting on the floor, books open, whiteboard in front of us, cat or two on our laps, chickens looking in from the deck  :001_smile:

 

Arrgh. Alcumus won't open for me. I get a blank screen. I'll have to try again later. Thanks for the link. I don't know what the issue is at my end.

[Arcadia]

If you pipe your laptop or tablet to a big screen TV, you can pretend the TV is a whiteboard that you can't write on.

 

Alcumus works on my ipads, kindles and my hubby's windows tablet. Works on my kids winows 10 laptops too. If you get wonky screens on a windows laptop, try the different browsers. My kids have Edge, Firefox and Chrome because the browsers take turns misbehaving.

 

I can understand your shipping costs issue. Mine is with chinese and german story books.

[LEK]

My DD is still working through beast academy so she has not started prealgebra but I recently order the AOPS prealgebra so I could work through it before giving it to her. I am loving it and can't wait to order the next book lol.

 

While your daughter might be fine with the placement test for algebra I personally would consider getting prealgebra as well as algebra for her, the aops method is so different and while I am finding the maths easy enough so far in prealgebra the methodology and strategies being taught are amazing and I am finding them to be a great intro to their methods without the computations being too complex.

 

BTW we are also aussies, I ordered through rainbow resources and got a big order to reduce the postage costs. I usually order everything for the year/6 months in one large order.

[Dmmetler]

DD did AOPS PA after LOF PA, and not only found it much more challenging, but found a lot of new concepts. We still use AOPS and LOF in combination, because DD loves LOF, but AOPS provides the depth that she also desires. FWIW, we're in an opposite situation-DD wanted to do Austrialian history this year :) (Animal Planet showed old Crocodile Hunter episodes while Bindi was on Dancing with the Stars, and DD was horrified to discover that Australia was in WWII, because she hadn't known that-so she decided to fill in the gaps. )

Edited July 29, 2016 by dmmetler

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Thanks LEK. Rainbow Resources is a smidge cheaper in postage. I'll definitely be using that if I choose to go ahead - thank you!

 

I use a local supplier for our Life of Fred books - The Educational Warehouse http://www.theeducationalwarehouse.com/ here in QLD.

 

One of my problems is that I can't really plan too far ahead. Something that really hits the sweet spot right now may be useless in 6 months. I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants sometimes. I'd love to be able to plan a year (or more) ahead, gather resources, make checklists, set a schedule etc. But alas, that is not my daughter's learning style. I could end up saving money or wasting money. I never know. Even with LoF which we've loved so far (well, except the Pre-Alg Economics, which kind of got a bit weird...) I still only buy one book at a time. I never can tell when my daughter will be ready for something quite different. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

DD did AOPS PA after LOF PA, and not only found it much more challenging, but found a lot of new concepts. We still use AOPS and LOF in combination, because DD loves LOF, but AOPS provides the depth that she also desires. FWIW, we're in an opposite situation-DD wanted to do Austrialian history this year :) (Animal Planet showed old Crocodile Hunter episodes while Bindi was on Dancing with the Stars, and DD was horrified to discover that Australia was in WWII, because she hadn't known that-so she decided to fill in the gaps. )

 

So, would you recommend we go with pre-alg first? I value your opinion (no pressure or anything ....  ;) )

 

Ah, the Crocodile Hunter. I cried when he died. I remember exactly where I was when I heard it on the radio news. We live reasonably close to Australia Zoo. That was so sad.

 

WWI too. As a British colony, Australia was part of the allies. ANZAC Day is a big deal here, remembering Australian and NZ soldiers.

[kiwi mum]

My DS did LOF through to Trig before starting AOPS with Algebra. There was plenty of challenge for him and I think he even would have got stuff out of the Prealgebra book. In your situation I would definitely start with Prealgebra.

[Dmmetler]

I really would suggest starting with PA since you have time. It was very valuable for DD to get used to AOPS style with content that was somewhat familiar. Which is one reason why getting LOF in advance has been good enough to make it worth buying both series.

[igbu]

We have two sons taking AOPS classes who had previously done LOF, Khan Academy and their B&M school's math.

 

I would second starting with PA.

 

AOPS is not for every student, but for us there has been no going back to traditional school curriculum after finding AOPS.

[slackermom]

Perhaps you could order the books through Amazon instead of AOPS? It looks like that might make it less expensive.

 

And yes, AOPS is worth the cost. :)

DD said it was AWESOME because it was her first math textbook that was about WHY the math works, instead of how to do the math. She is a fan of Zaccaro, too, but AOPS was even better for her.

[Arcadia]

One of my problems is that I can't really plan too far ahead. Something that really hits the sweet spot right now may be useless in 6 months. I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants sometimes.

Start a WTM ANZ social group to swap, trade, barter used curriculum? I don't know how costly Australia's domestic postage is though so it might not be as practical.

[LiverpoolFan]

If my memory serves me well, Amazon do ship AoPS Prealgebra book and solution outside the US.

They also ship Vol1 as well.

 

HTH

[SarahW]

Another option is to poke around on the national math team websites of countries around you. They may be distributors.

 

I know UKMT sells aops books. Might be worth looking around the Hong Kong math team webpage? Or....?

 

Just an idea.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Thanks folks! 

 

My plan, following all of your fabulous advice, will be to poke around on Alcumus to get a feel for the style. I'm feeling optimistic. Understanding the 'why' behind things is definitely my daughter's thing.

 

If it seems like a go-er, then I'll shop around for Pre-Alg first. Maybe Rainbow Resources, maybe Amazon, maybe I'll stumble across a second-hand book somewhere. And I'll definitely check math olympiad sites like UKMT - thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep the e-book option in mind too.

 

I realise this will vary considerably with a heap of different factors, but how long did it take your children to work through the pre-alg book?

[kiwik]

For PA amazon seems cheapest but with the NZ dollar it is $97 including postage. It might be worth trying homeschool forums in Australia. I got Introduction to Number Theory on TradeMe the other day but the sold their PreAlgebra last year.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

For PA amazon seems cheapest but with the NZ dollar it is $97 including postage. It might be worth trying homeschool forums in Australia. I got Introduction to Number Theory on TradeMe the other day but the sold their PreAlgebra last year.

 

Thanks kiwik. I had a quick look on Amazon and the first few I tried didn't ship to Australia. But I'll keep trying!

 

I don't participate in any other forums but this one, but I'll definitely look into it. My understanding is that a lot of forums are now via Facebook. I'm a Facebookaphobe, but I may need to tackle this fear one of these days...

[Dmmetler]

It took DD about 9 months, even having already done LOF PA.

[kiwik]

Thanks kiwik. I had a quick look on Amazon and the first few I tried didn't ship to Australia. But I'll keep trying!

 

I don't participate in any other forums but this one, but I'll definitely look into it. My understanding is that a lot of forums are now via Facebook. I'm a Facebookaphobe, but I may need to tackle this fear one of these days...

I don't like Facebook either. I only joined for the the NZ and beyond HG+ group. It probably wouldn't be much good for curriculum but it is quite a useful group at times. I know there is a gifted homeschoolers forum in Australia - some must use AOPS. Does Australia Post have a freight forwarding option. NZ post gives you an address in the US to use for shipping and forwards it to you. I haven't used it but the rates compare to Amazon rather than US publisher rates ($22 NZ rather than $40+ US). I signed up but so far have only used the address to buy a PDF that required a US address. Edited July 31, 2016 by kiwik

[luuknam]

Aside from that surely there are some people in Australia who have already used AOPS and want to sell it, you'll be able to sell your book too after you've used it. I'd imagine that you should be able to get at least the $80 for it that the ebook costs you, possibly more (assuming you are gentle on the book).

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Aside from that surely there are some people in Australia who have already used AOPS and want to sell it, you'll be able to sell your book too after you've used it. I'd imagine that you should be able to get at least the $80 for it that the ebook costs you, possibly more (assuming you are gentle on the book).

 

Exactly! Australian AoPS users must be out there! My mission is to seek them out. Maybe that means joining Facebook  :eek: . 

 

 

Very good point re re-selling. I was already headed towards the real book anyway, after Arcadia told me you can't print pages from the e-book. We're very gentle on books   :) .

[Dmmetler]

Be aware that it's difficult to be gentle with AOPS. They're big, softcover books, and that combination isn't particularly durable. I understand why they went that route (similarly sized hardback books cost about twice as much), but it does make it hard to keep the books in like-new condition.

[luuknam]

Be aware that it's difficult to be gentle with AOPS. They're big, softcover books, and that combination isn't particularly durable. I understand why they went that route (similarly sized hardback books cost about twice as much), but it does make it hard to keep the books in like-new condition.

 

True, but I don't think it would have to be in "like new" condition if she's reselling it in a market where used copies are very hard to find. It just needs to be in a good enough condition that someone thinks it's still preferable to an ebook. So, if I were in Australia, I'd probably rather spend $80 on an 'acceptable' used copy than on an ebook. 'Like new' could fetch a bit more, but I don't think the difference would be that big.

[kiwik]

The trick with Facebook is not to tell anyone you have it and put minimal personal details. You can then just use it for Facebook groups. Unfortunately someone I knew was in one of the groups and recognised my writing style and some of the details

[chocolate-chip chooky]

The trick with Facebook is not to tell anyone you have it and put minimal personal details. You can then just use it for Facebook groups. Unfortunately someone I knew was in one of the groups and recognised my writing style and some of the details

 

I'm going off on a whole new tangent and I'm hijacking my own thread, but now that we're talking about Facebook - is it okay to use a pseudonym on there?

 

I like that here we can discuss our challenges and concerns and it's anonymous. Is it a no-no to start a Facebook account with a pseudonym? I don't really want my real name attached to discussion about my child's possible giftedness, the challenges it presents etc. 

 

One of the reasons I've contemplated Facebook is to join the group called PowerWood. It's specifically for supporting families with ALs with OEs. But really, some of my biggest issues that I'd want to discuss and get support for, I wouldn't want our real names attached to on the internet forever and ever.

[hellen]

I messaged you.

[musicianmom]

If your daughter is already doing a strong pre-A program, I think watching the videos on the AoPS website and going through Alcumus (it's really free to have an Alcumus account? Wow!) would be a sufficient supplement, plus it would be a good test to see if she likes the AoPS method.

[luuknam]

I'm going off on a whole new tangent and I'm hijacking my own thread, but now that we're talking about Facebook - is it okay to use a pseudonym on there?

 

I like that here we can discuss our challenges and concerns and it's anonymous. Is it a no-no to start a Facebook account with a pseudonym? I don't really want my real name attached to discussion about my child's possible giftedness, the challenges it presents etc. 

 

One of the reasons I've contemplated Facebook is to join the group called PowerWood. It's specifically for supporting families with ALs with OEs. But really, some of my biggest issues that I'd want to discuss and get support for, I wouldn't want our real names attached to on the internet forever and ever.

 

It's against their policy. That said, worst case scenario they'll kick you off of Facebook, at which point you'd make a new pseudonym and start a new account (it's been forever since I created my Facebook account, but you may need to create a new email address or something to do that - which is trivial to do). There are plenty of people on Facebook who use pseudonyms for w/e reason and have never been caught by Facebook.

[Dmmetler]

I also know a lot of people who use first and middle names or some other variant. FWIW, I've never known anyone with a plausible sounding pseudonym to be questioned-the ones that have been are those where it's either something that could be confused with a real, public figure, or where it's obviously fictional (one of my friends was "Bucktooth Wookie" for years-and was fine until "The Force Awakens" came out and they apparently scanned for Star Wars themed accounts.)

[luuknam]

I also know a lot of people who use first and middle names or some other variant. FWIW, I've never known anyone with a plausible sounding pseudonym to be questioned-the ones that have been are those where it's either something that could be confused with a real, public figure, or where it's obviously fictional (one of my friends was "Bucktooth Wookie" for years-and was fine until "The Force Awakens" came out and they apparently scanned for Star Wars themed accounts.)

 

I know someone who was reported by someone she knew because the person didn't like her. But, like I said, at that point you just open another account, so, it's annoying, but not a disaster.

[Sarah0000]

I think Facebook may be cracking down on that more though. They asked my friend for two proofs of identity because he used a Z instead of an S for his first initial on his FB account. He chose to close it instead.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I think Facebook may be cracking down on that more though. They asked my friend for two proofs of identity because he used a Z instead of an S for his first initial on his FB account. He chose to close it instead.

 

You have to prove your identity? 

Or was that an isolated situation, because it looked a bit suspicious? But there could be plenty of names that have the initial Z.

 

What if I just made up a really normal sounding (and normally spelled) name. 

 

Arrggh. I'm such a technophobe, Facebookaphobe and sharing-my-real-name-online-aphobe.

[luuknam]

You have to prove your identity? 

Or was that an isolated situation, because it looked a bit suspicious? But there could be plenty of names that have the initial Z.

 

What if I just made up a really normal sounding (and normally spelled) name. 

 

Arrggh. I'm such a technophobe, Facebookaphobe and sharing-my-real-name-online-aphobe.

 

You only have to prove it if they ask. My plausible but not real name hasn't been questioned in the years it's been that way (I rarely use Facebook, but still).

[Dmmetler]

You only have to prove it if they ask. My plausible but not real name hasn't been questioned in the years it's been that way (I rarely use Facebook, but still).

FWIW, there are 6 people using a scientific name of a single snake as their name on Facebook. It sounds plausible, but if you know anything about herpetology, you know it's not real. There are several other scientific names that turn up regularly following DD's stuff, some of which we know who is attached to them.

[Arcadia]

You have to prove your identity?

Or was that an isolated situation, because it looked a bit suspicious? But there could be plenty of names that have the initial Z.

My friend is a Zachary, no one questioned. I was told Facebook only check if someone log a complain. My underage niece and her classmates are on Facebook since they were in 3rd grade. She just turned 13 a few months ago. (ETA: my legal name has four parts due to my country's quirky name policy for NRIC. I was too lazy to put my full name down for Facebook so my friends would message me to make sure they got the correct person. My name on Facebook is extremely common because it is a very common in my culture, I left out my uncommon last name because that is rare).

FWIW, there are 6 people using a scientific name of a single snake as their name on Facebook. It sounds plausible, but if you know anything about herpetology, you know it's not real. There are several other scientific names that turn up regularly following DD's stuff, some of which we know who is attached to them.

I had female schoolmates named Million, Billion Trillion in order of birth by their parents. All happened to be school swimmers who swim in regionals so the winner announcements were always amusing. They are used to the teasing.

I had college mates that were named after sports cars, I don't know if they change their names after college.

 

ETA:

DS11 laughed at my horribly long legal name :P

Edited August 3, 2016 by Arcadia

[mathnerd]

You only have to prove it if they ask. My plausible but not real name hasn't been questioned in the years it's been that way (I rarely use Facebook, but still).

I am sure that they won't ask if you don't participate in discussions that turn heated or express strong opinions online or if you don't use a famous name (like JFK or Mother Teresa) as your ID. I am on Facebook just so that I can keep track of my son's extra curricular activity schedules, class announcements etc. I don't use it for social reasons at all. I also use a short form of my first and last name (with a couple of alphabets interchanged) so that I cannot be identified by people wanting to connect with me on Facebook.

[Julie of KY]

If you are doing LOF Beginning Algebra, you could probably start with AoPS Intro Algebra. On the other hand, AoPS Prealgebra is of a similar level to many algebra books and it contains a lot of other topics such as beginning number theory, counting, probability, statistics, and geometry.

 

I'd consider getting more than one book if it doesn't double shipping. AoPS is definitely worth going out of your way to get.

[hellen]

I just saw that the AOPS Academy website has sample questions. These are the algebra questions.

 

https://vienna.aopsacademy.org/courses/course/catalog/algebra-1

 

The Prealgebra page is supposed to have problems also but they aren't loading for me. Maybe they'll get it fixed soon.

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I just saw that the AOPS Academy website has sample questions. These are the algebra questions.

 

https://vienna.aopsacademy.org/courses/course/catalog/algebra-1

 

The Prealgebra page is supposed to have problems also but they aren't loading for me. Maybe they'll get it fixed soon.

 

Oh wow, Hellen, those look HARD. Thanks for the link. You've confirmed my choice of pre-algebra for now  :)

 

We've just got Alcumus up and running, after needing to submit parental permission for an under-13.

I'm really keen to have a poke around and see what's what.

 

You've all been so helpful - huge, huge thanks!

[Sarah0000]

Oops I thought I had posted a follow up response about the FB thing but I guess it didn't go through...

 

My friend who was asked for proof of identity is foreign-born and sometimes posts in his native language (German). His real name is uncommon but not unheard of in the US and his shortened nickname is not particularly unusual. I've never seen him post anything heated but he does post political comments occasionally, same as most other people. Perhaps foreign names and foreign languages are a red flag.

[Arcadia]

Regarding interesting legal names, neighbor's classmate is really named Princess.

 

ETA:

My neighbor posted the class name list photo on Facebook.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Arcadia