Is Geometry necessary?

[madteaparty]

I hate that I'm even asking. I don't normally subscribe to the "education as a means to the end of reaching highest tax bracket you can" mentality. Really most stuff we do like languages etc are pretty "useless". But this is not a math/hard sciences kid. Do they change? Would I be closing any doors by not doing geometry at all? He has done AoPs PreA, continuing on with Algebra and also C&P with same.

He is going to brick and mortar high school, if that helps.

[Arcadia]

The high school would want to see geometry and make him do geometry in high school if he can't test out.

So he can wait until high school if he wants but I won't tell him he can skip for good.

 

It's like history for my kids. They will get it done by 11th even if they think it is useless.

[MinivanMom]

If he's headed to b&m high school, then he will be required to complete Geometry. It's generally a graduation requirement, and it's a requirement for applying to college. It's one of those basic math/science requirements that college-bound kids cannot skip (like 2 years of Alg and completing both a biological & physical science course). 

[madteaparty]

If he's headed to b&m high school, then he will be required to complete Geometry. It's generally a graduation requirement, and it's a requirement for applying to college. It's one of those basic math/science requirements that college-bound kids cannot skip (like 2 years of Alg and completing both a biological & physical science course).

This is actually good to know...it will be good to leave one class he can take at school ;)

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes nearly all High Schools require Algebra I (or this taken prior to High School), Algebra II, Geometry and many times another math credit as well.  

 

FWIW, some kids end up liking Geometry more than Algebra.  I wasn't great at Geometry and frankly math was not a good subject for me, but I LIKED Geometry.  

[Targhee]

Two thoughts:

1. geometry builds logical reasoning in a way few other things do (it's very concrete). It's said Abraham Lincoln slept with Euclid next to his bed - it was what he read to develop his logic and debate/rhetoric skills. Even if the math is never applied, the thinking of Geometry will be useful.

 

2. Many kids who didn't care for arithmetic, hated algebra, suddenly find the get and like geometry. You never know. Your child may just turn on to math through geometry.

[justasque]

This is actually good to know...it will be good to leave one class he can take at school ;)

 

I would add -

So he's hsed now and going to b&m high school?  If you know where he's doing, it might make sense to talk to them about what he can/should take now and what will mess up his schedule later.  Being out of sync with peers can be challenging when it comes to putting together a schedule in b&m school.   If they routinely have kids come in with geometry completed, for example, then it will likely be ok.  However, if they don't, some looking ahead might be useful.  Will they be able to accommodate someone out of sync, is there a plan for what to do senior year when he's maxed out their classes, etc.  If you need to "slow down", you can go broader/deeper rather than "ahead".  Some schools are wonderful about dealing with this; others not so much.  Hopefully this is a non-issue and you have a great school that will work with you!

[Azalea]

Two girls I know did not take geometry. They had math skills at an algebra one level when they started at community college. They never ended up taking a separate geometry course. They are now in post-grad professional schools which will lead to high paying careers.

 

That being said, my daughter didn't like math until she took geometry which she enjoyed.

[Calm37]

I've seen this question before. Doesn't it imply that there is something separate about Geometry, something about it that stands alone? I didn't really see things that way when I went through the sequence (using MUS) with my two youngest. Geometry definitely set us up for Algebra 2 and most especially for Trig. And I would say that it also cemented many Algebra 1 concepts. 

 

Just my personal experience with it! :)

[madteaparty]

I would add -

So he's hsed now and going to b&m high school? If you know where he's doing, it might make sense to talk to them about what he can/should take now and what will mess up his schedule later. Being out of sync with peers can be challenging when it comes to putting together a schedule in b&m school. If they routinely have kids come in with geometry completed, for example, then it will likely be ok. However, if they don't, some looking ahead might be useful. Will they be able to accommodate someone out of sync, is there a plan for what to do senior year when he's maxed out their classes, etc. If you need to "slow down", you can go broader/deeper rather than "ahead". Some schools are wonderful about dealing with this; others not so much. Hopefully this is a non-issue and you have a great school that will work with you!

He is completely out of sync with peers and I anticipate most of his high school career will be dual enrollment (which at least on paper, the school arranges and approves). We are doing brick and mortar school for the social stuff, APs and ski club (lol). And yes, I know where he is going.

[madteaparty]

In addition to what others have said, a lot of kids who don't like algebra find they really enjoy geometry. Geometry was the first math class my oldest really loved (and she aced it). It actually improved her math attitude so that she went on to like algebra 2 much more than she had algebra 2. Also, if he's successfully doing AOPS, he can't be THAT much of a not math/science kid, at least as far as ability.

 

ETA: posted at same time as OneStep.

He is going AOPs, I didn't say he is doing it successfully. It's more like hand to hand combat...

[Melissa B]

A knowledge of geometry is necessary for both the ACT and GRE. My dd self studied for the exams. 

[boscopup]

You can certainly let him do geometry at the high school. It's typically taken in 9th or 10th grade, I believe.

 

FWIW, I didn't care for geometry (I loved algebra and calculus and differential equations and really, any other math). I could do geometry, and I'd basically skip the homework and still ace the tests, thus squeaking out a B in the class (because of all those missing homework grades), but I didn't enjoy geometry. I'm still glad I learned it though. I've probably used geometry in life more than I have algebra.  :tongue_smilie:

 

If he's not enjoying math in general and is slogging through AoPS, I might consider using a different text though. The best math book is the one your child learns well from, not necessarily the hardest text. For some kids, AoPS is awesome, for others it goes down in flames. For some kids Teaching Textbooks is the bomb, others it's Saxon. Nothing wrong with any of those. Use what works.

Edited July 29, 2016 by boscopup

[OneStepAtATime]

He is going AOPs, I didn't say he is doing it successfully. It's more like hand to hand combat...

Then maybe switching to something else might work better?  AoPS is awesome but it isn't for everyone.  As mentioned by boscopup some kids thrive with AoPS but many others thrive with CLE or Saxon or Teaching Textbooks or... :)

[madteaparty]

Then maybe switching to something else might work better? AoPS is awesome but it isn't for everyone. As mentioned by boscopup some kids thrive with AoPS but many others thrive with CLE or Saxon or Teaching Textbooks or... :)

We are sticking with AOPS to the bitter end :)

[OneStepAtATime]

We are sticking with AOPS to the bitter end :)

:lol:

[Lanny]

It should be a requirement for high school graduation and for entering a university. There was a thread on WTM, approximately 3 to 6 months ago, about how Geometry applies to everyday life, which I found very interesting. Possibly if you Google, limiting your search to WTM, you can find that thread.  IMO it is necessary...

[Twigs]

I asked my Geometry what was the point of Geometry; her reply, "It teaches you to think logically."  Very true.

 

ETA: I did use some of the concepts later.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Twigs

[Ausmumof3]

Geometry is probably the one branch of higher math that my non mathy dh uses fairly frequently for work.

 

It also happens to be the only part of math my kid likes...

[MotherGoose]

I never intend to deprive my homeschooled children of any subject their brick and mortar peers will definitely acquire. Geometry is one of them. Plus, I enjoyed it, and it helps with calculating carpet or wallpaper one day :)

[Garga]

Hang on. Let me get this straight:

 

Your son is doing AoPS, which is a super rigorous course.

Your son is 12 and already doing algebra.

Your son is NOT mathy?

 

Whaaaa...?

 

A not-mathy kid takes Algebra I in 9th grade, maybe even 10th. And then goes on to Geometry and Algebra II. Your kid is taking algebra in 7th. Using one of the most rigorous curriculums out there.

 

If you kid really isn't mathy, as you say, then why are you making him do the most rigorous math out there, 1-2 years earlier than everyone else?

 

I'd say to cut the kid a break and give him a math curric that better suits him. Why make him hate the subject?

[foxbridgeacademy]

Hang on. Let me get this straight:

 

Your son is doing AoPS, which is a super rigorous course.

Your son is 12 and already doing algebra.

Your son is NOT mathy?

 

Whaaaa...?

 

A not-mathy kid takes Algebra I in 9th grade, maybe even 10th. And then goes on to Geometry and Algebra II. Your kid is taking algebra in 7th. Using one of the most rigorous curriculums out there.

 

If you kid really isn't mathy, as you say, then why are you making him do the most rigorous math out there, 1-2 years earlier than everyone else?

 

I'd say to cut the kid a break and give him a math curric that better suits him. Why make him hate the subject?

:iagree: He might be a "mathy" kid if he were able to work with a different curriculum at a slightly lower level.  Being able to say you did AoPS will make not one jot of difference if he hates it and bombs the SAT/ACT.

[madteaparty]

Because we like self punishment here? Because it's not really meant to be easy, any of it? Do you not make your mathy kids read hard books because they're not word people? This sort of view is foreign enough to me to be really fascinating, so thanks for it. :)

I'm not looking to debate my choice of curriculum, but as always thanks for the views

Edited July 30, 2016 by madteaparty

[wintermom]

I'd do some geometry with him before he goes off to b & m school. Not necessarily the entire AoPS book, if your ds is really resistant, though. If you want geometry material similar to AoPS, but mixed in with algebra, then the archieved math contests from this website are excellent. There are both contests and full solutions. http://cemc.uwaterloo.ca/contests/past_contests.html

[mamamoose]

Because we like self punishment here? Because it's not really meant to be easy, any of it? Do you not make your mathy kids read hard books because they're not word people? This sort of view is foreign enough to me to be really fascinating, so thanks for it. :)

I'm not looking to debate my choice of curriculum, but as always thanks for the views

Well with this rhetoric why wouldn't you make him take geometry? Seems like back peddling if you ask me. I have a mathy kid who does really well with a certain way of thinking. I homeschool for flexibility in a program so I can make sure they actually learn something--not to make them take he most rigorous program out there just to say we did it. Obviously your opinion is different, but you did come here asking. Fwiw

[Garga]

Because we like self punishment here? Because it's not really meant to be easy, any of it? Do you not make your mathy kids read hard books because they're not word people? This sort of view is foreign enough to me to be really fascinating, so thanks for it. :)

I'm not looking to debate my choice of curriculum, but as always thanks for the views

 

I've discovered that if my kids are miserable with a curriculum, they don't learn as well with it. When I switch it up, they start to shine. Subjects that they hated before and slogged through, suddenly become subjects that they like, if not love.

 

Have you had that happen in other subjects? Where you get something new, and the kids suddenly start to shine in that subject? Maybe you've not seen that happen, but when you do you then you'll understand our view.

 

I haven't responded this way in order to try to berate you. I'm responding because I'm thinking you don't know that a switch up of curriculum isn't doing less for your child or trying to make it easy so that the child doesn't learn. A switch up of curric is to make the child better at the subject and able to learn more.

[Arcadia]

I've discovered that if my kids are miserable with a curriculum, they don't learn as well with it.

OP's child is the one who choose to stick with AoPS. Her child is still young, if he wants to do combat with AoPS, why not. He can switch curriculum when he wants to.

 

As for OP's question, I see it more as a timing question rather than a skip geometry question. Does OP's child need to do geometry in middle school? Probably not because her child can probably take the NY Regents for algebra 2 and go from high school geometry to PreCalc. And other than basic trig, geometry isn't required for 9th grade science. As for ACT, he can do that after geometry in high school.

[wapiti]

Absolutely do geometry.

 

1.  It's a graduation requirement.  It is, or should be, a prerequisite for trig.

 

2.  He's obviously quite mathy.  Keep doors open!  (Am I remembering right, this one might want to go to law school?  Or is that a different child?  e.g., suppose he goes for a STEM type of degree, attends law school and ends up doing IP)

 

3.  I don't remember if I told you this before, but having always been more of a math person than a language person, it was kinda weird that I ended up in law.  The day I realized that a brief is really a proof, everything clicked.  While he's getting that proof experience from the other AoPS texts, there's something so visual about geometry, something special.

 

4.  If he's visual-spatial and liked the second half of the prealgebra book better than the first half, liked C&P better than NT, he may well like geometry better than algebra.

 

5.  AoPS is a fantastic text and much more efficient (IMO) and fun than an ordinary geometry text (though of course there are other nice options).

Edited July 30, 2016 by wapiti

[regentrude]

Geometry is necessary.

1. It is often a graduation requirement.

2. It will be tested on the ACT/SAT.

3.It is a necessary prerequisite for trigonometry/precalculus.

4. It is the best way to introduce proofs, and it trains logical thinking.

5. It has lots of applications in many professions which you would not consider as "math/sciencey". My HVAC installer told me he needs trigonometry. Carpenters and construction people need geometry. I need geometry for home improvement projects and crocheting (tons of geo there). It is probably the branch of math beyond arithmetic that has the most practical applications.

 

 

[Ms Brooks]

Totally agree with regentrude!

 

Geometry, not algebra is a skill I wish I took more seriously in high school. It is a skill I use most for making-building anything from a house to a raised garden bed frame, to quilting and hand painting signs on a cylinder.  Geometry matters! 

[madteaparty]

Well with this rhetoric why wouldn't you make him take geometry? Seems like back peddling if you ask me. I have a mathy kid who does really well with a certain way of thinking. I homeschool for flexibility in a program so I can make sure they actually learn something--not to make them take he most rigorous program out there just to say we did it. Obviously your opinion is different, but you did come here asking. Fwiw

I guess I was asking if geometry was necessary in middle school. I did not know, and I learned in this thread, that high school will make him take it anyway. So I am glad I asked :)

I do want to take some math topics that are not "necessary" like Counting and Probability, because I think they matter esp for a liberal arts kid. I didn't know if geometry was one. So I asked and was answered so thank you everyone :)

[madteaparty]

OP's child is the one who choose to stick with AoPS. Her child is still young, if he wants to do combat with AoPS, why not. He can switch curriculum when he wants to.

 

As for OP's question, I see it more as a timing question rather than a skip geometry question. Does OP's child need to do geometry in middle school? Probably not because her child can probably take the NY Regents for algebra 2 and go from high school geometry to PreCalc. And other than basic trig, geometry isn't required for 9th grade science. As for ACT, he can do that after geometry in high school.

Yes exactly what she said.

[madteaparty]

Absolutely do geometry.

 

1. It's a graduation requirement. It is, or should be, a prerequisite for trig.

 

2. He's obviously quite mathy. Keep doors open! (Am I remembering right, this one might want to go to law school? Or is that a different child? e.g., suppose he goes for a STEM type of degree, attends law school and ends up doing IP)

 

3. I don't remember if I told you this before, but having always been more of a math person than a language person, it was kinda weird that I ended up in law. The day I realized that a brief is really a proof, everything clicked. While he's getting that proof experience from the other AoPS texts, there's something so visual about geometry, something special.

 

4. If he's visual-spatial and liked the second half of the prealgebra book better than the first half, liked C&P better than NT, he may well like geometry better than algebra.

 

5. AoPS is a fantastic text and much more efficient (IMO) and fun than an ordinary geometry text (though of course there are other nice options).

Ahem. He wants to be a writer. I joke that i'm cynically saving for law school ;)

[wapiti]

Ahem. He wants to be a writer. I joke that i'm cynically saving for law school ;)

 

LOL.  I thought I remembered something there.  Of course, when I was that age, I wanted to be a meteorologist, which was before I wanted to be a cartoonist, which was before I realized I had absolutely no clue what I wanted to do...

[MerryAtHope]

I guess I was asking if geometry was necessary in middle school. I did not know, and I learned in this thread, that high school will make him take it anyway. So I am glad I asked :)

I do want to take some math topics that are not "necessary" like Counting and Probability, because I think they matter esp for a liberal arts kid. I didn't know if geometry was one. So I asked and was answered so thank you everyone :)

 

Ah, gotcha. So, yes, necessary, but necessary for middle school, no. In fact, many middle schoolers are not developmentally ready for higher level maths. A student can be very bright but not yet have the physical brain development that makes upper level math understandable. That could be part of his struggle with Algebra right now. There have been a number of threads over the years about students who had already completed up through Pre-Algebra at an earlier age, yet were not ready for algebra. Sometimes another year makes a huge difference developmentally.