Is this too much? 9/10th grade

[Janeway]

Son feels like he has too much on his plate. Here is what he has....

 

Science Shepherd 1 credit

Foerster Algebra 2 w/trig 1 credit

History and Lit/English outsourced 2 credits

First/second Form Latin 1 credit

 

Things he loves:

-music theory and piano. He loves this and on his own spends hours every day. He returns to it constantly when he is supposed to be doing school work. 

-karate. Working on his black belt. Goes 5-6 days a week

-leadership class. Learning to be a karate instructor. Will do this for a year and then the next year, will have an internship

-painting. Not doing a ton of this, but is still in to it. Plan some art museum visits and art history studies over the next two years.

 

Nothing in the things he enjoys should go. He would be happy to drop science. Not an option. He says he enjoys history and lit but that he should drop that. Frankly, he loves history enough and reads it on his own and has already read half the books for that class so it would not be the end of the world for him to drop. But I did already pay for fall and would not feel comfortable asking for the money back. I could ask the teacher to let him out of the copying bible verses part. I feel funny asking her to change up his assignments, but, that is something that takes a lot of time. 

 

I also could let him go slower with Latin. When I contacted MP, they said First Form would be one semester high school. So I was expecting him to complete two sets of books. But I could cut back and let him do just the one semester worth over the course of the year. 

 

I also expect chores out of him. I am not talking 3 or 4 hours, I am talking small chores that really take no more than 30 minutes if they are just done. This would be empty the dishwasher, put away own laundry, that is mostly it. He might get asked to sweep a floor or wash a table. So his chores are very light.

 

[regentrude]

No, this is not too much. 5 credits in core academic subjects is the minimum of academic work I would expect in high school. Math, science, history, English and foreign language are non-negotiable for me and would take about five hours per day.

This leaves plenty of time for electives and extracurriculars of the student's choice. With only five academic subjects, there is enough spare time the student can use at his discretion for sports, music, and art. You can later decide which of these have enough instructional component to make them credit worthy, and which should be counted for extracurriculars.

Edited July 27, 2016 by regentrude

[katilac]

Sorry, Janeway's son, that is a perfectly normal high school schedule! 

[MerryAtHope]

Lay out the high school requirements for him. I'm not seeing anything out of the ordinary...

 

1 credit math (3-4 years required)

1 credit English (4 years required)

1 credit History (3 years for college-bound)

1 credit Science (3 years, including at least a couple of lab sciences, for college-bound)

1 credit Foreign Language (2 years in the same language usually required for college-bound--some colleges want more)

 

That's pretty standard fare for a college bound student. I'd let him know what credits he needs to graduate and lay a general, required, 4-year plan out for him (consider what your school requires, general college-bound plans, requirements of schools he might consider etc...). Let him know where there is wiggle room (for example, one of mine did 3 years science but 4 years history, while the other will do 4 years science, 3 years history--each according to their bent and to allow time for other classes that either I require or electives). My kids had at least 6 credits per semester--which he'll easily have too, when you add: 

 

.5-1 credit for PE (you could put Karate for PE on his transcript, or exempt him and count this as an outside activity)

1 or more Fine Arts Credits (count his hours for piano for music credit, and his hours for painting for art credit--if need be, count the art activities over the next couple of  years until it adds up to half a credit or a credit).

 

His leadership training could be another elective, but I think that actually would look great under activities for him, and shows the range of his interests and abilities.

 

Edited July 28, 2016 by MerryAtHope

[Momto6inIN]

Lay out the high school requirements for him.

 

:iagree:

 

It made a big difference for my kids when I showed them the requirements (state and my own and future colleges) and charted it all out for them ... and then asked them what kinds of courses they wanted to take to make all this happen. It kind of made them take ownership of their own high school education.

[Mike in SA]

Sorry, kiddo - that's perfectly normal, and perhaps even light by today's standards. Lots of kids have 7 academic courses in addition to extracurricular music and sports.

 

Then again, I think today's standards are rather skewed. ;)

[SanDiegoMom]

My PS daughter will graduate wth 32 credits - 8 classes per year. Usually six academic credits (though some obviously vary in intensity - creative writing wasn't too demanding) and a music and PE or health. Senior year will be 6 academic credits, band, writing center as a tutor, plus extra-curriculars. In ninth grade (semester based scheduling) she took two maths, human geography, 2 credits of band, PE, English, and physics. So five academic credits.

[KathyBC]

The public high school system in my area divides the school year into two semesters, with students taking four courses each semester for a total of eight. A typical student would ideally take two academic subjects and two electives per semester. More academic/ambitious students might take more academic subjects and relegate elective activities as extra-curricular, though some electives are actually mandated. When I went to school, we took all eight courses year-round.

Your son's course load looks perfect, it's maybe just a question of how to lay it out: all subjects all year or dividing them up.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Son feels like he has too much on his plate. Here is what he has....

 

Science Shepherd 1 credit

Foerster Algebra 2 w/trig 1 credit

History and Lit/English outsourced 2 credits

First/second Form Latin 1 credit

 

Things he loves:

-music theory and piano. He loves this and on his own spends hours every day. He returns to it constantly when he is supposed to be doing school work. 

-karate. Working on his black belt. Goes 5-6 days a week

-leadership class. Learning to be a karate instructor. Will do this for a year and then the next year, will have an internship

-painting. Not doing a ton of this, but is still in to it. Plan some art museum visits and art history studies over the next two years.

 

Nothing in the things he enjoys should go. He would be happy to drop science. Not an option. He says he enjoys history and lit but that he should drop that. Frankly, he loves history enough and reads it on his own and has already read half the books for that class so it would not be the end of the world for him to drop. But I did already pay for fall and would not feel comfortable asking for the money back. I could ask the teacher to let him out of the copying bible verses part. I feel funny asking her to change up his assignments, but, that is something that takes a lot of time. 

 

I also could let him go slower with Latin. When I contacted MP, they said First Form would be one semester high school. So I was expecting him to complete two sets of books. But I could cut back and let him do just the one semester worth over the course of the year. 

 

I also expect chores out of him. I am not talking 3 or 4 hours, I am talking small chores that really take no more than 30 minutes if they are just done. This would be empty the dishwasher, put away own laundry, that is mostly it. He might get asked to sweep a floor or wash a table. So his chores are very light.

 

On paper it's not an unreasonable load, but your mention of copying bible verses as part of History (English?) taking a lot of time made me wonder - do each of these classes take ~ an hour a day/5 hours a week?  To my mind, a 2 credit history/lit class means he's spending ~ 2 hours a day/10 hours a week reading, writing, and discussing history topics and books.  If a lot of that time is spent doing copywork, or if there is 2 hours a day plus a bunch of copywork, I'd question whether that was the best use of time for a 9th/10th grader.

 

I also have a dd with a passion, something she spends multiple hours each day on her own doing - creative writing. So we turned that into an elective credit, so that we could create space in her "school day" for the thing she loves the most.  You could do that with his music theory/piano.  But that's a 6th, elective credit on top of the core 5.  There isn't anything on his core class list I would feel comfortable dropping. But if it was my kid, and she was feeling overwhelmed, I'd take a look at how long she was spending on each of the core classes each day/week, and if any seemed inordinately long, I'd look carefully at the work and make sure it's all meaningful, no busywork.

[KathyBC]

 

I also could let him go slower with Latin. When I contacted MP, they said First Form would be one semester high school. So I was expecting him to complete two sets of books. But I could cut back and let him do just the one semester worth over the course of the year. 

 

 

 

This seems reasonable.

 

EDIT: I was speaking out of my own situation, where one semester equals a year's worth of work. It will only be reasonable if your son can still get the amount of foreign language credits he needs.

Edited July 30, 2016 by KathyBC

[The Governess]

I don't think you should cut any of those 5 credits. But you may also want to keep track of his time spent on art and music over the year. At the end of the year, you may find you have enough hours for a half or full elective credit as well.

 

Is there a reason you are choosing the Form series over a standard high school Latin curriculum? The Second Form book prepares the student well for the Intro level of the National Latin exam, but is much lighter on translation work than your typical Latin 1 program that prepares for the Latin 1 exam. The two books might be enough work for a credit, but may or may not be as effective as another curriculum in meeting your longer-term language goals.

[Haiku]

A typical high school schedule includes at least six credits per year, so your son's schedule is light. I get the impression that your son gives you a lot of trouble about school. Are you firm with him, or do you allow him to negotiate a lot? I tell my kids that after they have proven they can follow instructions, then they can negotiate. But they are not going to negotiate just because they feel like it.

[Janeway]

On paper it's not an unreasonable load, but your mention of copying bible verses as part of History (English?) taking a lot of time made me wonder - do each of these classes take ~ an hour a day/5 hours a week?  To my mind, a 2 credit history/lit class means he's spending ~ 2 hours a day/10 hours a week reading, writing, and discussing history topics and books.  If a lot of that time is spent doing copywork, or if there is 2 hours a day plus a bunch of copywork, I'd question whether that was the best use of time for a 9th/10th grader.

 

I also have a dd with a passion, something she spends multiple hours each day on her own doing - creative writing. So we turned that into an elective credit, so that we could create space in her "school day" for the thing she loves the most.  You could do that with his music theory/piano.  But that's a 6th, elective credit on top of the core 5.  There isn't anything on his core class list I would feel comfortable dropping. But if it was my kid, and she was feeling overwhelmed, I'd take a look at how long she was spending on each of the core classes each day/week, and if any seemed inordinately long, I'd look carefully at the work and make sure it's all meaningful, no busywork.

The copying bible verses is a very small part of it. He has a lot of books to read and a paper every week. There are tests and quizzes also as well as an occasional speech or presentation to be given.

[Janeway]

A typical high school schedule includes at least six credits per year, so your son's schedule is light. I get the impression that your son gives you a lot of trouble about school. Are you firm with him, or do you allow him to negotiate a lot? I tell my kids that after they have proven they can follow instructions, then they can negotiate. But they are not going to negotiate just because they feel like it.

Not this child. That was the other one. And the other one is doing fine and this one is now giving me a little bit go grief. LOL..mostly..he is trying to negotiate his schedule right now. It feels like the "giving me grief" had a level of transference. Younger son must have transferred it to older.

[katilac]

Not this child. That was the other one. And the other one is doing fine and this one is now giving me a little bit go grief. LOL..mostly..he is trying to negotiate his schedule right now. It feels like the "giving me grief" had a level of transference. Younger son must have transferred it to older.

 

Yes, they watch carefully for the moment when you give a sigh of relief that things are improving, and signal the younger sibling to get started. 

[freesia]

Yes, they watch carefully for the moment when you give a sigh of relief that things are improving, and signal the younger sibling to get started.

Exactly! Child number one doing great now, child number 2--Ms. compliant, easy cooperative--uh, not so much anymore. . .

[freesia]

Oh and OP--the schedule is fine. Not in any way too heavy. I would pull a fine arts credit from the music for sure to reach at least 6 credits.

[RootAnn]

So he is going to the the co-op class that you keep waffling about?

 

Sounds like music theory/piano might be a 1/2 credit - or even a full credit depending on how much time he puts in. Painting & art could be a 1/4 credit each year to make a 1/2 credit over two years.

How much time does the leadership class take?

 

Do you already have the Forms? If you don't, you might want to consider just going with Henle. It moves faster, but if he has done some Latin before, it isn't too difficult. (Was this a class that you were considering outsourcing in another thread? We didn't have a good experience outsourcing Latin, but some people speak highly of it.)

 

I don't have an issue making 9th grade a little light and keeping time for other interests because it can be tough to switch to high school level expectations for some. But, it definitely needs to ramp up each year. So, if 9th was 5.5 credits, 10th should be 6.5 credits. I feel like the academic expectations on the WTM high school board can sometimes be so high. My kids are definitely not academic heavy weights and our college lists will probably be short lists of rolling admission you-have-a-pulse-and-a-23-ACT, so-we'll-let-you-in because $$ wise, that's what we can afford. So, take my words in light of where we are coming from & where we are going.

 

(FWIW, my dd#1 did 7 credits in 9th grade:  1 math, 2 foreign language, 1 science, 1 social studies, 1.5 language arts, and .5 speech elective. She has the following on her plate for her 10th grade year: 1 math, 2 foreign language, 1 science, .5 government, .5 economics, 2 language arts, and .5 fine arts. Mine does karate, but only one-two nights a week. She also does computer science programming on her own time. 

[Corraleno]

Five core courses is not too much at all; that's pretty much the minimum. If he only does a half-credit in Latin, he'd only have 4.5 core credits, which would be light IMO. I'd count the music theory as an elective for at least a half-credit, maybe a full credit if he has enough hours. You could also give a half-credit in PE for the karate, although personally I prefer to keep sports as an EC.

 

If your son is college bound, he needs to be aware that most college applicants will have 6 (or more) academic credits per year, plus ECs like sports, music, clubs, community service, etc. If his course load is significantly lighter than that, he will be at a disadvantage.

 

[MerryAtHope]

The copying bible verses is a very small part of it. He has a lot of books to read and a paper every week. There are tests and quizzes also as well as an occasional speech or presentation to be given.

 

I generally plan about an hour of work per day per credit hour (or around 180 hours). Sometimes English credits can be more like 1.5 hours per day with reading/writing--but if it's a lot more than that, then it may be heavy there since you are outsourcing. (Also consider that if the outsourced class meets for fewer than 36 weeks, the hours per week would go up to get into that 150-180 hour range total for each credit.) The other classes you may be able to make adjustments if you find the workload is too much. You may have to get into the outsourced classes to figure out if the work really is going to be a lot more than a traditional credit for your son. You may end up having to make adjustments during busier weeks, or chunk some things into blocks depending on how those classes work. 

[Janeway]

So he is going to the the co-op class that you keep waffling about?

 

Sounds like music theory/piano might be a 1/2 credit - or even a full credit depending on how much time he puts in. Painting & art could be a 1/4 credit each year to make a 1/2 credit over two years.

How much time does the leadership class take?

 

Do you already have the Forms? If you don't, you might want to consider just going with Henle. It moves faster, but if he has done some Latin before, it isn't too difficult. (Was this a class that you were considering outsourcing in another thread? We didn't have a good experience outsourcing Latin, but some people speak highly of it.)

 

I don't have an issue making 9th grade a little light and keeping time for other interests because it can be tough to switch to high school level expectations for some. But, it definitely needs to ramp up each year. So, if 9th was 5.5 credits, 10th should be 6.5 credits. I feel like the academic expectations on the WTM high school board can sometimes be so high. My kids are definitely not academic heavy weights and our college lists will probably be short lists of rolling admission you-have-a-pulse-and-a-23-ACT, so-we'll-let-you-in because $$ wise, that's what we can afford. So, take my words in light of where we are coming from & where we are going.

 

(FWIW, my dd#1 did 7 credits in 9th grade:  1 math, 2 foreign language, 1 science, 1 social studies, 1.5 language arts, and .5 speech elective. She has the following on her plate for her 10th grade year: 1 math, 2 foreign language, 1 science, .5 government, .5 economics, 2 language arts, and .5 fine arts. Mine does karate, but only one-two nights a week. She also does computer science programming on her own time. 

I already have the forms and he really wants to use it. Otherwise, it would not have been my choice. The piano, he easily spends a few hours a day on it. The painting, not as much time is spent on it anymore. I probably won't give any credit for the painting unless that changes. But I will give a full credit for applied music/music theory. He could easily have more than one credit for that though. And the karate? That alone is 10 hrs a week at this point, but will cut back in September, but will still be at least 5 hrs a week. I do not know what the leadership class entails yet. And he will be working on drivers ed too. So he will get a full credit for karate too.

[Corraleno]

I already have the forms and he really wants to use it. Otherwise, it would not have been my choice. The piano, he easily spends a few hours a day on it. The painting, not as much time is spent on it anymore. I probably won't give any credit for the painting unless that changes. But I will give a full credit for applied music/music theory. He could easily have more than one credit for that though. And the karate? That alone is 10 hrs a week at this point, but will cut back in September, but will still be at least 5 hrs a week. I do not know what the leadership class entails yet. And he will be working on drivers ed too. So he will get a full credit for karate too.

 

If you have enough credits without it, I would not give academic credit for karate (unless your state requires a PE credit for homeschoolers, and then I would just call it PE).

 

The problem with making everything "curricular" is that you won't have anything left that's "extra-curricular." Sports are really ECs (football players don't have academic credits for Football 1, 2, 3, and 4 on their transcript). The leadership program will be an excellent EC — that's exactly the kind of thing colleges look for, so I would also avoid turning that into an academic credit.

[theelfqueen]

In my local school district a season of a varsity sport (or marching band) counts as 1/2 credit of PE. Oldest received this credit.

 

[Corraleno]

Many states require public schooled students to have some kind of PE credit to graduate, so it makes sense for athletes (or marching band members) to be excused from regular "gym class" if they're getting far more exercise than that every week anyway.  But colleges are not going to care about PE credits on a homeschool transcript, unless the student is so short of credits that PE is taking the place of academic electives, in which case it's a minus not a plus.  And I would not list a specific sport as a full credit on the transcript and then also list it as the main EC — IMO double-dipping by counting the same hours as both an academic credit and an EC does not look good. 

FWIW, my son trains 3-4 hrs/day, 5 days/wk, year round, plus frequent travel to competitions on weekends, and the only place it's going on his transcript is under ECs. I could legitimately give him a separate half-credit in PE every year just for the time he spends in the gym, without even touching his actual training & competition hours, but there's really no point in that — they can tell from his sport that he's physically fit and he has plenty of genuine academic credits. So why dilute a strong academic transcript with fluff?

Edited July 29, 2016 by Corraleno

[wintermom]

If you ds plans to pursue music, either by studying it at the college level or teaching it, then taking exams would be a good idea. In Canada, there are specific levels of exams offered through the Royal Conservatory of Music, for technical instrumental and music theory, that are equivalent to a high school credit (12th grade) and are also recognized by music academies and the general population for teaching. 

 

If your ds decides to go this more formal route, the music theory classes (music history) might overlap with some of his history. 

[Janeway]

If you have enough credits without it, I would not give academic credit for karate (unless your state requires a PE credit for homeschoolers, and then I would just call it PE).

 

The problem with making everything "curricular" is that you won't have anything left that's "extra-curricular." Sports are really ECs (football players don't have academic credits for Football 1, 2, 3, and 4 on their transcript). The leadership program will be an excellent EC — that's exactly the kind of thing colleges look for, so I would also avoid turning that into an academic credit.

Sadly, the public schools here do give credit for football. The footballers have a class period for football.

[KathyBC]

Change my mind, too off-topic. 

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by KathyBC

[AggieMama]

You might want to keep karate as EC as in PS a sport/band like that would get credit because the student would send upwards of 15 hours a week on that sport. My district will only count outside sports as a waiver of students can document over 15 hours per week in practice.