Will a dual-enrolled AS degree interfere with freshman status?

[rlestina]

This may have been addressed somewhere but I cannot find it....

 

For a homeschooled high school student dual enrolled in a community college, will getting an AS degree interfere with freshman status/financial aid/etc?

 

I know that students can earn as many college credits as they want as a dual enrolled highschooler without problems, but will actually going thru the paperwork to get the AS degree during high school cause problems? 

 

One of my kids wants to get a part time job that requires an AS in a particular field.  She has almost all the credits.  She wants to finish the last couple of classes, get the AS, and get that part time job, while still finishing high school.

 

I'm concerned that this might jeopardize her freshman standing (and potential scholarships) when she applies to 4 year schools.

 

Any words of wisdom?

[Lori D.]

I believe this will depend on the specific university she wants to attend.

 

Some universities allow unlimited credits, up through an Associate's degree, earned while in high school and will still allow freshman status. Other schools draw the line at an Associate's degree. And other schools limit the number of dual-enrolled college credits a student can have and still be considered a freshman to just 24 credits, or even as low as just 12 credits. (So your student is going to already be way over the limit of the credit limit for freshman status for some universities.)

 

Even if the university of choice does have a more restrictive policy, it can still be very worthwhile financially to go in as a transfer student rather than as a freshman, as there are transfer student scholarships. Plus, if enough of the dual-enrolled credits transfer, your student may only need to attend the university for 2 years, which can come out to cut costs as much or more than freshman-only scholarships.

 

For example: our DS went to the community college CC after high school graduation, earned his Associate's, and had such a high GPA that it landed him a half-tuition transfer student scholarship for BOTH years at the 4-year university. And he had taken enough transferable credits at the CC that he only needed 2 years at the university to finish the Bachelor's degree, saving 2 years of the much higher tuition + room and board.

 

So, while it is true that the bulk of higher-amount scholarships, and renewable scholarships, are awarded to students with freshman status, you really do have to weigh other financial factors in there as well, as well as your student's future career goals/needs to see if this is the best route.

 

Without knowing more details, I'd say go ahead and earn the AS degree, and look into finding universities that have no limit on amount of dual-enrolled college credits or on earning an AS, and also look into schools that have good transfer scholarships if their policies would make DD ineligible for freshman status.

 

BEST of luck in finding the best options for your hard-working student! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Lori D.

[JanetC]

My background: Older DD had credits but not an associate's. She finished at CC and is starting at her four-year school in the fall. Younger DD wants to try for an associate's, but hasn't started yet.

 

You really need to split your question into multiple concerns:

 

1. Freshman status for financial aid? What I have found is that you do keep your freshman status for financial aid in nearly all cases.

 

2. Will my credits transfer? State systems generally have course-equivalency tables to figure out whether your credits transfer. Private schools often limit the number of credits accepted for incoming freshman. It is very common for private schools to either limit the maximum credits to one semester's worth or to say that college credits that apply to high school requirements do not transfer at all (the so-called "double dipping" rule).

 

3. If the credits do or do not transfer, is that good or bad in your particular case? Depending on your net price at a private school, you might have preferred that the credits to transfer and to be able to graduate early than to pay private school tuition for a full four years, even at the freshman scholarship rate. On the other hand, if your public university system has a "maximum credit policy" and the credits all transfer, your kid may be forced into a situation where they are graduating with their bachelor's two years and perhaps not ready maturity-wise for the workplace or graduate study. It may even be difficult to finish your preferred major, if that major is available at the university but not the CC. In order to complete their intended major before hitting the maximum credit limit, their schedule may be packed with major requirements and no room for electives.

 

You need to look at your particular situation carefully, school by school, and see what the best options are for your student's goals.

[Pawz4me]

My youngest son isn't homeschooled, he's in a public school early college program. If things go as planned he will graduate with an AS degree in May about two weeks before he receives his high school diploma. All of the universities we've visited will treat him as a freshman for admissions and scholarship purposes. Several will also give him perks that normally come with being an upper class transfer student (more housing choices, having priority over freshman who have earned no/few college credits in enrolling in classes, etc.). In short, so far we've discovered no "con" to earning an AS while in high school. One caveat, though -- We chose this route because we felt it was the best high school choice for DS. That was the priority for us, not what it did or didn't do for his four year college prospects.

[SkateLeft]

This just depends on the university.

 

Both of my girls did full-time dual enrollment in 11th and 12th grade, but opted not to pursue the associates degree path, because some of the colleges that they were interested in would have considered them transfer students rather than freshman applicants.

[TheReader]

The universities we looked into all classify an AS degrees student, even completed during high school, as transfer students not freshmen, which always had fewer/lower value scholarships.

 

On the flip side, a student who tests badly but does well in school will have an easier time with admissions because then they look at GPA not test scores. And as someone else mentioned, you would want to way the cost savings of fewer years at a 4 yr institute against the cost increase of less financial aid to find out which ends up the higher out of pocket expense in the long run.

[G5052]

For the schools I'm familiar with, if you from the state system community college system into state 4-year schools, you would not be considered a freshman with an AS degree.

 

The other little quirk is that if you complete high school and your AS degree at the same time, you're not eligible for the guaranteed admission agreements. Those agreements frankly are such a sweet deal -- have all of the credit in the right places with the right GPA, and you go right to junior-level classes even in competitive programs. Some of the schools are pickier than others about grades and GPA, but it allows you to start locally and transfer into nationally-ranked programs just like you started there. If you try to transfer in without the guaranteed admission agreement, it can be a lot harder in many ways. For this reason, I know people locally who complete most of the AS in high school but finish it after they graduate from high school.

 

As an example, DS plans to transfer into a 4-year in 2017-2018 under guaranteed admission. They have three tiers for admissions at the junior level. Their first tier are their own students who have completed all of the required courses with a 3.0 or above with no C's in their major classes. Then they admit all of the state guaranteed admission students. Then in the last tier they look at their own remaining students and those transferring from other colleges including AS graduates who didn't complete the AS degree. They are somewhat flexible on their numbers at that point, but they're very open that it's a tough program to transfer into both in terms of having everything lined up and how competitive it is. Your chances for a transfer scholarship are also much better under the agreement.

 

It really pays to ask the hard questions!

[Jamee]

It is my understanding that an AS is your first two years of college.  I'm confused as to why you'd want to repeat those two years if you've already completed them?

[Riverland]

DS graduated from high school with an AS-T degree. We sought out 4 years with excellent, automatic merit aid for students with high stats. 

 

Everywhere he applied, he was accepted, and they all treated him as a freshman for scholarship purposes. All the schools were out-of-state (5 different states). If he applied to in-state public schools, they would have also accepted him as a freshman for scholarship purposes. There were no hoops to jump through at any of them to get the freshman status.

 

The bonus, is that the vast majority of his credits transferred. He started his 4 year with junior standing (better for class registration).

 

Our results may be biased due to the type of schools we were looking for. (engineering, high merit aid) We do not qualify for financial aid, so that was not a piece of our puzzle.

[JanetC]

It is my understanding that an AS is your first two years of college. I'm confused as to why you'd want to repeat those two years if you've already completed them?

Sometimes the goal is often to get into a top school, like the acquaintance I have who's son did an AS in physics to get enough rigor to get into Caltech. I think he placed out of some courses, but mostly he did it to be able to keep up with the top minds in the world at his dream school.

 

Sometimes the goal is to cut time, by taking your credits and graduating early.

 

Sometimes the goal is to cut costs. Keeping your eligibility for freshman scholarships and placing into advanced classes sooner can reduce the cost of the degree.

 

These don't have to be exclusive, there can be a primary and secondary goal.

[KarenNC]

It is my understanding that an AS is your first two years of college.  I'm confused as to why you'd want to repeat those two years if you've already completed them?

 

It's not necessarily to repeat those two years. In addition to JanetC's list, sometimes students will do dual enrollment to open up the option to double major by getting gen ed courses out of the way, have a lighter per semester course load, or the flexibility to study abroad while still completing the degree in 4 years (or less). Looking at graduation rates, it's taking many, many students 5-6 years now to complete what we think of as 4 year degrees. 

 

The person over a local cc dual enrollment program told us about a homeschooled student who completed his AA or AS (not sure which) while in high school and then applied to the local state university, receiving their top full ride 4 year scholarship. Because he had completed the associate's degree, the university agreed to let his scholarship cover the two years he needed for the bachelor's and apply the other two years to a master's program. I don't think that would be considered common, but did happen.

Edited July 26, 2016 by KarenNC

[Kassia]

It's not necessarily to repeat those two years. In addition to JanetC's list, sometimes students will do dual enrollment to open up the option to double major by getting gen ed courses out of the way, have a lighter per semester course load, or the flexibility to study abroad while still completing the degree in 4 years (or less).\

 

My son did not get an AS, but did graduate high school with over 60 college credits from dual enrollment.  He will finish his engineering degree in four years, but was able to take only 12-14 credits per semester instead of 15-18 and he will also complete a minor as well.  Taking fewer credits has been wonderful for him (he has Asperger's) so he can really focus on the classes he takes.  He has a 3.9 GPA going into his senior year.

[Lori D.]

It is my understanding that an AS is your first two years of college.  I'm confused as to why you'd want to repeat those two years if you've already completed them?

 

Reasons why a student with an AS degree may HAVE to "repeat" or go longer than 2 years at the 4-year university (i.e., reasons why an AS degree might not automatically knock off 2 years of a 4-year degree):

 

1. The credit transfer policies of 4-year universities may only accept some, not all, of the credits used to earn the AS. Unless there is a credit transfer articulation agreement between the school where the AS was earned and the 4-year university the student transfers to for the Bachelor's degree, there is no guarantee that all of the AS degree credits will be able to be applied towards the required credits of the Bachelor's degree.

 

2. Many 4-year engineering and medical degrees now often schedule pre-requisite classes and key classes in such a way as to "lock" the student into 4 years at the university. The required course sequence for the Bachelor's degree is set up so that some key classes are only offered once a year -- and those classes usually can ONLY be taken at the university -- they are not transferable from other schools, nor can any other class from any other school substitute for these classes.

 

 

Reasons why a student may choose to complete the AS:

 

1. A student may have earned the AS without knowing in advance what university the student wants to transfer to, and only later, upon transferring to the chosen university, find out that the AS does -- or does not -- fully knock off 2 years of the 4-year degree at that university.

 

2. A student may want to work fully at college level for the last years of high school, regardless of whether or not all the credits transfer towards a 4-year degree.

 

3. A student may want to earn the AS, even knowing not all of the credits will transfer towards a 4-year degree to open up the university schedule with the credits that do transfer in order to do a minor or a double major -- and just for the satisfaction of completing the degree.

[angela in ohio]

Sometimes the goal is often to get into a top school, like the acquaintance I have who's son did an AS in physics to get enough rigor to get into Caltech. I think he placed out of some courses, but mostly he did it to be able to keep up with the top minds in the world at his dream school.

 

This. My dd didn't get her Associates (that would have required some courses that were useless) but she had over two years worth of credits when she graduated HS. Many of the colleges she applied to wouldn't give any transfer credit, but it was a path to just get in to them. It's an alternate to AP for us. 

 

The Associates degrees are not the same as the transfer programs that are supposed to cover your first two years of a 4-year degree at our CC. They are two different paths here with only some overlap.

 

I have yet to see a local student finish in two more years after getting an Associates. The transfer agreement students (different courses than Associates) don't even finish in two more years. They go into the 4-year college out of sequence and have at least 1-2 extra semesters to get everything in.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It is my understanding that an AS is your first two years of college.  I'm confused as to why you'd want to repeat those two years if you've already completed them?

 

An AS is a degree that typically takes 2 years for full time students.  But it may be a more general degree and the student might not be two years along towards their 4 year degree of choice.

 

The AS at one school may also have requirements that don't fill requirements at the BS school.  Just as an example, our local community college requires a course in Hawaiian, Asian or Pacific studies.  The course taken to fill that requirement might transfer to meet a requirement in a global perspectives category, but it might also be an "extra" if the student has other credits that also meet that requirement.  (For example, DS1 could meet that Global Perspectives requirement with AP Comparative Politics.  But the Comp Poli course wouldn't meet the Hawaii/Asian/Pacific requirement for the AS.)

 

You also have to watch things like what math is required for the AS vs a BS.  As an example, the AS in Computing at our CC requires one math course (3-4 credits) at College Algebra or higher for math.  The BS program DS will be in has Calculus 1 as the initial math class.  The AS requires Principles of Technology as the natural science course.  The BS program requires Chemistry and Physics for freshmen.  A student might earn the AS, thinking they are well along towards a BS in Computer Science, only to realize that they have not taken the standard freshman requirements and have done computer coursework in entry level IT courses rather than programming courses.

 

While a student could take a good number of calculus and college level science courses at our CC, meeting the AS requirements would not come anywhere close to completing the first two years of a BS degree in the majors DS was considering.  Buyer beware.

[JanetC]

While a student could take a good number of calculus and college level science courses at our CC, meeting the AS requirements would not come anywhere close to completing the first two years of a BS degree in the majors DS was considering. Buyer beware.

Odd that there aren't multiple pathways. Our CC has a DTA in General Studies for liberal arts students, and different DTS tracks for different science and engineering majors, and even then, the degree guides have warnings about how X is required, but Y and Z are strongly recommended.

 

There is definitely a penalty to taking random courses at the CC without a plan for your eventual major in terms of having the prereqs you will need to graduate.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Odd that there aren't multiple pathways. Our CC has a DTA in General Studies for liberal arts students, and different DTS tracks for different science and engineering majors, and even then, the degree guides have warnings about how X is required, but Y and Z are strongly recommended.

 

There is definitely a penalty to taking random courses at the CC without a plan for your eventual major in terms of having the prereqs you will need to graduate.

You could take Calc 1 and 2 instead of the College Algebra to meet the AS requirements. And you might be able to talk them into Chemistry or Physics instead of the technology course.

 

At this school the AA degrees are well explained but info on the AS programs are harder to find. They all seem to be tied to a certificate like IT or aircraft maintenance. The could be good in equipping a studen for work in the field. The AS degree as laid out won't put a student two years ahead in a Stem BS degree.

 

I have some similar caveats about the AA degree. I interview for my alma mater, which is largely an engineering school with a math and science core even for humanities majors. Students who are dual enrolled can pick between a lot of levels of chemistry and physics to meet the AA science requirement. One is what I'd consider college level. The others are much lighter introductions. Maybe all you need for an English degree, but not the best prep for applying to a stem college.

 

There needs to be a student version of buyer beware.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Odd that there aren't multiple pathways. Our CC has a DTA in General Studies for liberal arts students, and different DTS tracks for different science and engineering majors, and even then, the degree guides have warnings about how X is required, but Y and Z are strongly recommended.

 

There is definitely a penalty to taking random courses at the CC without a plan for your eventual major in terms of having the prereqs you will need to graduate.

 

I took a look at one of the other nearby CC campuses (all the CC's in our state are part of the University of Hawaii system.  That is good for transferrability of courses into UH for 4 year degrees, but there is still the issue of whether a course taken at CC will apply to the BA/BS degree.)

 

One issue is that several of the campuses are moving to a more robust model with a more solid pathway to the 4 year schools, but our campus is maintaining more vocational ed options.  These are often certificate programs that lead to a qualification needed for a job.  Our campus is also in a more urban area and is physically hemmed in with little room for expansion.  Meanwhile a lot of the population (especially those who are college bound) have moved west into the newish "second city".  In aggregate, that means that there are fewer sections of upper level courses on our campus.  I'm really glad that our campus has held the line and maintained the vocational and remedial courses, because there is a huge need for them.  But it also means that there is only one section of calculus 1 per semester.  

 

When I look at the larger campus that is on the west side, there is a stronger AS in Natural Sciences degree.  This AS has multiple tracks, depending on the 4 yr goal of the student.  These do have higher level math requirements and do tend to start with Calc 1 as the first math course that meets AS degree requirements.  

 

Part of this may be due to the fact that the AS in Natural Science program is rather new.  A lot of it probably boils down to the core mission and population needs at our campus.  In theory the transferability of courses would mean that a student could do the same AS in Natural Science at our campus.  In reality, many of the upper level courses aren't offered, or have so few sections that they conflict.  (DS could not take Calc 2 last semester because it met at the same time as Chemistry 2).  Where the west side campus offers advanced chemistry and physics courses for the AS NS program, our campus mostly has botany, environment and intro level courses.  A student would end up completing the AS NS mostly with a collection of 100 level courses, rather than moving into deeper studies.  

 

It does highlight the need to research what you are actually working towards and what that will get you.  It would be easy to spend time and money on courses that really apply towards the long range goal.