Are Fallacy Detective and Thinking Detective Secular Friendly?

[fairy4tmama]

I was at a convention this weekend and looking at them I was on the verge of purchasing them when I noticed that the back said Christian world view so I decided against getting them. It had been a really long week end and I was just not in a position to really do a close read while standing at a vendor booth, but I am still intrigued. Sadly, it doesn't seem that any one near me has a copy I can barrow to look through. So, for those who are secular and have used these books or previewed them, can you give me your opinion? What if anything was problematic for you? Was this a book you were able to use in spite of the Christian world view? If you decided against these books did you use something else instead?

[Farrar]

I know when I considered them, I read threads that made me uncomfortable enough that I wasn't willing to use them.

[blueninjamum]

I know when I considered them, I read threads that made me uncomfortable enough that I wasn't willing to use them.

 

 

 

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[blueninjamum]

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. I'm curious, does anyone have secular alternatives to recommend for those logic titles at a similar 5th/6th grade level?

 

 

 

 

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[dori123]

Following.

We have Fallacy Detective. It's not completely without merit, but we use it as a discussion guide rather than assigned reading, so I can help the kids interpret things in a different way. I think it's a great opportunity to show the importance of critical thinking... even when reading source material that teaches critical thinking.

[Farrar]

. I'm curious, does anyone have secular alternatives to recommend for those logic titles at a similar 5th/6th grade level?

 

 

 

 

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Lots of ideas in this old thread:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/521763-alternatives-to-art-of-argument-talking-about-metacognition/

 

No, I don't think there's a resource that's exactly the same, but there's a number of other good things out there.

[Desert Strawberry]

Critical Thinking Company has many choices for all levels. Totally secular.

[deerforest]

Yes, I spent a lot of time in that old thread. I last posted that I was considering these:

 

I have a lot of persuasion and skepticism books I'm evaluating already, but was also thinking of these mentioned in the thread:

- Nonsense by Gula

- Workbook for Arguments and Rulebook for Arguments 

- Influence, Cialdini

- Thank you for Arguing

 

I bought Nonsense by Gula and Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments in addition to the other materials I already had about persuasive writing and skepticism. I am still considering the Workbook for Arguments and Rulebook for Arguments. But, so far my plan is to just build out my own course for logical thought and writing.

[Aras]

I purchased them, but after looking at them in person I decided they were not for us at all. It assumes a worldview very different from our s and I thought it had loaded discussion questions.  But I am very liberal and very secular so YMMV. I posted about it in this thread. I still can't get over the "small hands" comment 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/521141-critical-thinking-co-critical-thinking-books-1-2-substitute/

[Sahamamama]

I know when I considered them, I read threads that made me uncomfortable enough that I wasn't willing to use them.

 

I agree with Farrar, I am unwilling to use them. We own both books, I have studied them myself, and they continue to sit in a box, otherwise unused.

 

I am a conservative Christian in many ways, but there is something about the... tone? of these books that irritates me. Like sand in my eye. One word that comes to mind is "arrogant." Another is "ignorant." Put those two traits together and you have the general gist of it. IMO.

 

HTH.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Sahamamama

[Sahamamama]

I purchased them, but after looking at them in person I decided they were not for us at all. It assumes a worldview very different from our s and I thought it had loaded discussion questions.  But I am very liberal and very secular so YMMV. I posted about it in this thread. I still can't get over the "small hands" comment 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/521141-critical-thinking-co-critical-thinking-books-1-2-substitute/

 

I wanted to just mention this, also:

 

I can't find it now, but a few years ago, the Bluedorn boys had an essay discussing how their family came to teach logic. They stated that their mother initially started teaching them, but was (basically) too stupid to figure it out, so in the end, their father took over the logic studies. The Bluedorn boys' next statement hit me between the eyes: They said that, whenever possible, the FATHER should teach logic, especially if the students are boys, because boys don't want to learn logic from their MOTHERS, who are essentially incapable of grasping it.

 

:cursing:

 

I will try to find that portion of their essay and post it here, for posterity.

[Sahamamama]

Apparently, that article has since been edited, because it does not line up with what I printed out a few years ago (yes, I saved it!). However, there is still this lovely little gem:

 

http://www.fallacydetective.com/articles/read/our-experience-with-logic

 

When I was about thirteen, my parents announced that we were going to study logic. What thoughts flitted through my anti-intellectual mind I can't rightly remember, but I imagine they weren't good. Back then, my father had not yet taken on much of the responsibility for our schooling, so the burden fell on my mother's shoulders. If you don't know what it is to learn logic with a woman, how can I describe it to you. My mother had never studied logic, but as it fell out, we spent some of our most enjoyable hours learning logic together. What I didn't understand, she explained to me, and what she couldn't grasp, I helped her understand – the latter taking the greater balance of our time.

 

Good way to honor your mother. :glare: 

[Aras]

Apparently, that article has since been edited, because it does not line up with what I printed out a few years ago (yes, I saved it!). However, there is still this lovely little gem:

 

http://www.fallacydetective.com/articles/read/our-experience-with-logic

 

When I was about thirteen, my parents announced that we were going to study logic. What thoughts flitted through my anti-intellectual mind I can't rightly remember, but I imagine they weren't good. Back then, my father had not yet taken on much of the responsibility for our schooling, so the burden fell on my mother's shoulders. If you don't know what it is to learn logic with a woman, how can I describe it to you. My mother had never studied logic, but as it fell out, we spent some of our most enjoyable hours learning logic together. What I didn't understand, she explained to me, and what she couldn't grasp, I helped her understand – the latter taking the greater balance of our time.

 

Good way to honor your mother. :glare: 

 

Ugh where is the barf emoji...

[Farrar]

Yes, I spent a lot of time in that old thread. I last posted that I was considering these:

 

I have a lot of persuasion and skepticism books I'm evaluating already, but was also thinking of these mentioned in the thread:

- Nonsense by Gula

- Workbook for Arguments and Rulebook for Arguments 

- Influence, Cialdini

- Thank you for Arguing

 

I bought Nonsense by Gula and Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments in addition to the other materials I already had about persuasive writing and skepticism. I am still considering the Workbook for Arguments and Rulebook for Arguments. But, so far my plan is to just build out my own course for logical thought and writing.

 

I really like that Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments.

[Farrar]

Oh, and double  :ack2:  :ack2: to the Bluedorns and their illogical conclusions.

[Sahamamama]

Here's a link to a pdf which gives a good overview of their teaching. I believe that the tone regarding "men v. women" has been softened a bit from what I read a few years back. Scroll down to page 34 for the answer to "Dad or Mom?"

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwi437DEsYLOAhULOT4KHeU3DUwQFggkMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.exodusbooks.com%2FSamples%2FTRP%2FTPLLBooklet.pdf&usg=AFQjCNGYlYUk2hnkBRFzQPIInls1FakxMw&sig2=tedxZPpppWMkpSaksuc6jA&bvm=bv.127521224,d.cWw&cad=rja

 

HTH.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Sahamamama

[Sahamamama]

Ugh where is the barf emoji...

 

I know, I know!

 

I knew a pastor once, who, every time he talked about going somewhere, had to make a comment about "women drivers," "women drivers," "women drivers." I am the best and safest driver I know, hands down, so that really rankled. Misogyny turns me off in all its various forms, regardless of the source.

[RootAnn]

I think that if YOU read the FD book & go through the discussions questions together and can edit-on-the-fly, you could probably use some of it secularly. However, if you hold liberal beliefs (economically, socially, or politically), the book is unusable in any form. There just isn't enough left after you take out their beat-you-over-the-head ideas. (It is more than a slant.)

 

We used it in a snuggle-together-talk-about-it book at roughly 7th grade and it worked fine for us. Nothing in that book was hard to grasp, although we did sometimes disagree with the "answers" in the back of the book.

I did not use Thinking Toolbox, so can't comment on that.

We move onto Art of Argument, which leans conservative, in an 8th grade group setting.

 

Neither one of those is formal logic and so far, I've only taught girls, so I can't comment on teaching logic to boys.

[fairy4tmama]

I just want to say how grateful  I am for this community and to each of you for taking time to answer. It is incredibly valuable to ask these questions knowing I will get honest and valuable responses. I only have so much time and money and I need to spend it effectively.

Edited July 20, 2016 by fairy4tmama