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The reason I framed it like that is that she historically is so stinkin inconsiderate about others when she comes in at night. If we have a busy early day the next day, I sure don't want to chance my younger kids being awake at midnight because sister came in, flipped on the lights, and oh, since younger sis is now awake, let's chat about our day.

 

I agree, that's really inconsiderate. But, if you are allowing her to stay there, then you will also have to take into consideration her need to work late at the library, participate in study groups and even her social needs as a college student. Not everything can happen before 11:00 pm at night. 

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How old is the daughter going to college?  If she is 18 or over it would be one thing, but if she is younger, then I think stricter rules would apply.

 

FWIW - there is a book I read called "How To Really Love Your Adult Child" (I know - I'm a bookaholic so I recommend books a lot - sorry) and it really helped my husband and I in dealing with a boomerang kid who needed to move on.  It has a lot of ideas for family meetings and making rules everyone can live with.  It also helps to understand your child as well and help them cope with situations they are having trouble coping with. 

 

Currently I have 4 adult children and we've been the route of kids working jobs that ended late and sometimes my older 3 would just hang out together in their room like it was a dorm so I'm well aware of all that.  If they got loud I would just say, "you're being too loud for the littles please tone it down" and they would.  Once I had to boot a kid out of the younger boys' room because he was keeping them up too late but sometimes it's what you have to do.

 

I like the idea of maybe her sleeping on the couch if she comes in really late if it really is going to be a disturbance to the younger ones.  However, you may just give the situation a shot first to see how it will work and then if it needs to be adjusted then adjust it.

 

That's just my old mom opinion so ya know - grain of salt and all that.  :-)

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My dad always said "My house, my rules.  Don't matter if you are 42, if you are living in my house you follow my rules". 

 

It didn't bother me.   Of course his rules weren't bad.  Call if not coming home.  Don't wake people when you come in.  Help with housework (hey you are eating, sleeping, showering, doing laundry etc. you can help). 

 

 

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I agree, that's really inconsiderate. But, if you are allowing her to stay there, then you will also have to take into consideration her need to work late at the library, participate in study groups and even her social needs as a college student. Not everything can happen before 11:00 pm at night. 

 

This is true. Our son's commute is only 20 minutes, but staying for band practice, study groups, and social events, even if he leaves early, still gets him home after midnight. That's why we were willing for him to stay here only if he could come and go without waking everybody up. He couldn't do it if he still shared a bedroom with younger brothers in the quiet end of the house.

 

 

Currently I have 4 adult children and we've been the route of kids working jobs that ended late and sometimes my older 3 would just hang out together in their room like it was a dorm so I'm well aware of all that.  If they got loud I would just say, "you're being too loud for the littles please tone it down" and they would.  Once I had to boot a kid out of the younger boys' room because he was keeping them up too late but sometimes it's what you have to do.

 

We have a LOT of this going on; the teens meeting out in college boy's garage room just to hang out. I love it; I love that they're all still so close, and I love that the little brother can be snoring away at the other end of the house. Also, college boy's friends are welcome to come over, and they don't all have to keep the same hours as my 11yo. But again, garage entrance. It works.

 

But you know what, it only works if parents are flexible (although sleep-deprived), young people are respectful (although typical, and trying to spread their wings), and the relationships are still holding up. I would NOT risk relationships for living arrangements if it can at all be helped.

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Our house rule for our "living at home and going to college adult child", is that he text us by 10:30pm to let us know if he'll be out late. He doesn't ask permission or have to tell us where he is, just that he'll be out. Also, no working out in the garage past 10:30, as its too noisy.

 

If he were to consistently come in late and be so loud that he disturbs everyone, he'd have to find other living arrangements.

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This is true. Our son's commute is only 20 minutes, but staying for band practice, study groups, and social events, even if he leaves early, still gets him home after midnight. That's why we were willing for him to stay here only if he could come and go without waking everybody up. He couldn't do it if he still shared a bedroom with younger brothers in the quiet end of the house.

 

 

We have a LOT of this going on; the teens meeting out in college boy's garage room just to hang out. I love it; I love that they're all still so close, and I love that the little brother can be snoring away at the other end of the house. Also, college boy's friends are welcome to come over, and they don't all have to keep the same hours as my 11yo. But again, garage entrance. It works.

 

But you know what, it only works if parents are flexible (although sleep-deprived), young people are respectful (although typical, and trying to spread their wings), and the relationships are still holding up. I would NOT risk relationships for living arrangements if it can at all be helped.

 

Kind of OT but the bolded!  When the last of those three boys moved out of their room I cried - it was so quiet and I just missed them so much. I cleaned the room up in a day and moved the three girls in so I wouldn't have to look at the empty room anymore. :-)  

 

I also agree on flexible parents and respectful young folks - sounds like you have both at your place. 

Edited by Chocomom63
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I have a 21yo college student son who lives at home, and a17yo dual enrolled student at home, so I am in this stage of life right now.

 

I can't imagine giving a college student an 11pm curfew, yes IMHO that is very controlling. It may be right for your family but it is an uncommonly early curfew, and yes you are controlling her schedule to accommodate your family. Right or wrong, I say you should own that, and call it what it is.  I don't expect my kids to call me and discuss what they are doing to decide on a time to come home.    ETA I know you said it wasn't a precise curfew, but you used the 11pm example of when you feel it is appropriate to wake others vs not.

 

DS21 comes and goes as he pleases and has since he was 18ish. DD17 knows to text my by about 11pm to let me know a general idea of what is happening.  Something like "staying the night at Julia's, night, luv U" or "going to movie, gets out at 1230, See you after that,"  sometimes she tacks on that she is the driver, so I know she has to drop people off.   If I want to know something specific, I text her. 

 

Beyond, that I think you either need to figure a way to help her brainstorm ways be less disruptive (night lights vs switches, no eating once she comes home, no showers, etc) or help her move to the dorm.  Maybe having to pay for the freedom will be worth it for her, or maybe it won't and she will figure out other ways to make it work.

 

When I was 16yo, I only had one friend who had an 11pm curfew and he had very, very strict parents.  Of all my kids friends,I don't think I know of a single teenager who has an 11pm curfew once they are old enough to drive themselves. Most have midnight, and a few have 1am curfews, a few others have no real curfew at all.   Once they are in college, I can't remember any of my friends, or my kid's friends, having a curfew at all. 

 

Said softly, but seriously....You need to figure out a way to sleep when she is out of the house, so her schedule is not dictated by your sleep schedule.  What will you do when she moves out? I understand sleep issues (I have chronic insomnia) but you will have this situation with her, and all of your younger kids when they get older too. You may want to start working on it now, or you will have a very sleepless next 10 years. 

Edited by Tap
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I like the idea of her sleeping on the couch if she is not in by a certain time. 

 

My college aged son is home for the summer, and although he comes home after 12 (not a problem) - it is his middle of the night snacking that gets me upset. It is 3 am, and I hear someone in the kitchen! Scares me to death - every. single. time.

 

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IMHO, if she could live in the dorms but chose to stay at home, you don't need to be as accommodating as if she had no choice. She made this decision knowing what your schedule looks like so she must have thought she could put up with the inconveniences of living at home while she's in college. She doesn't get to save money AND discombobulate everyone else.

 

I agree.  Your answer changes my answer.

 

I think you can say to her.  "I think the best solution is for you to live on campus.  If you choose to live here instead, there will be compromises."

 

I still don't think that calling to ask permission is the best route.  Sleeping on the couch makes more sense to me, as does simply telling her that the dorm is her only option.

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With that eight am class I'd sure be looking hard at living on campus. I did the commute thing myself, and I never realized just how nice it was to be able to get to an early class without having to kill myself to get out the door on time. If she likes the late nights, and she's fussing about having to be in at a certain time, I would sure have her look hard at a dorm. You can frame it so it is about her---and it sort of is. You want to be rested for your day, she needs to be rested for hers, and with her living at home, doesn't sound like anybody is going to be happy.

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Is she responsible for the pay to live on/near campus outside of your home? Why has she not chosen that option? (you don't have to go into specifics, just wondering if money was the determining factor).

 

Given everything you've described, it makes sense that you don't want her coming in at 3am. But is she oblivious to the fact that she's not quiet? lol

 

When I was attending community college I lived at home with my parents. We didn't discuss curfew until the night my car got stuck and I didn't come home til like 4am after waiting on triple A with my boyfriend. My mom freaked out. I didn't call because I didn't want to wake them (would have made the landline ring). Anyway, my friends teased me about the whole curfew thing. It was embarrassing. Maybe she is embarrassed.

ETA: I see that she is trying to save money. Well, did she know the pro/con list before it was too late to arrange for a dorm room?

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I grew up in a country where, due to housing shortages, multiple generations frequently co-habited in small post war rebuilt flats. We didn't but most of my friends had an elderly relatives, or a cousin attending post sec or some family friend staying while trying to get their own place etc etc. Having lots of people in smaller places, shared bedrooms, sofabeds in living rooms etc, it was all normal.

I don't believe in a 'my house my rules'. Everyone compromises. 

When I was in high school my mom was a nurse and worked shifts and came home at all sort of weird hours. 

I still lived with my parents when I worked shifts as well. 

We also always had dogs so there was a barking chorus to greet you whenever you staggered home LOL. 

You deal. You use sofabeds and earplugs and coffee and you just accept a bit of chaos and inconvenience. 


My college dd lives with us. We've never had a curfew.  She hasn't even moved into the ground story rooms where she'd have more privacy and her own entrance. She still prefers the bedroom which is across the hall from mine.  My request for everyone is to text or call approximate times when you're expected just so we know when to send out search parties. That's the rule for all of us.

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Well, I guess it wouldn't be really asking for permission.  But still, I would think it would be fairly normal to call and say, "I'm going to be out super late tonight--don't expect me until 3 at least."  I guess it depends on how jumpy the roommates are...but I have always been the jumpy one, hearing noises where there are none, so waiting without expectation of time of arrival just makes me lose sleep.  Always has.  I had really considerate roommates, I guess...well, except that ONE year.  Ugh.  :0)

Wow, you definitely had uncommon roommates.  Not saying it was bad if it worked for you all.  I just can't imagine updating roommates on comings and goings of household members unless there was some very specific reason like being gone for vacation for a few days/week (so they don't think they are missing LOL).  I would think that very bazaar to expect of a roommate, or if a roommate updated me on their daily schedule. 

Edited by Tap
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Re: living on campus, I think it all depends on how you present it. My first semester of college, I was 20 mins from home (before I moved to a diffirent school) but chose to live in the dorms, not because my mom was into early curfews or anything but I wanted the dorm experience...to be with my fellow students, meeting new people, hanging out on campus, the late night gatherings in my dorm room just to talk, etc.So much of college happens outside the classroom and even now, I've forgotten things in my classes but I'll always recall so much that was cool about being on campus and wouldn't trade my dorm life for anything. If money's not the issue, she really should consider it.  She will learn quickly though, that if she has a roommate who is asleep when she comes in that turning on all the lights and being noisy won't cut it. That is basic consideration. 

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My dd is headed off to college in the fall. She'll be commuting.

 

She's determined that it's controlling for us as parents to require her to be in at certain times (not a firm curfew but more a phone call where we decide what's appropriate depending on what's happening)

 

I have a few reasons for requiring this.

 

First, I don't sleep well when I know someone's coming in. I get up early and "listening" for someone to come in disturbs my sleep and it wakes me up. I struggle with insomia and having people come in waking me up would mean an hour or more of staring at the ceiling.

 

Second, she shares a room with a sister. No matter how quiet she promises she'll be she's just not a quiet person.Her sister will have to get up the next morning as normal. She also tends to be loud enough and turn on enough lights that she wakes up all three younger siblings.

 

Third, the way our house is laid out means that everyone else getting up will probably prohibit much sleeping in. There will be constant interruptions if she tries to sleep in, and I won't force three younger siblings to tiptoe around. I won't have them being unnecessarily loud either, but we'll just proceed as normal. \

Fourth, I'm trying to explain that families check in with each other as a point of consideration. Dh doesn't just vanish; he knows it'd worry me. I don't just stay out till 3 am because I wanted to because I don't want to worry people. Dd see this as controlling.

 

I don't expect her to come in before siblings go to bed. But there's a huge difference between coming in at 11 and disturbing people a bit and coming in at 3 am disturbing people.

 

I've told her if she doesn't like living this way, she's welcome to get an apartment or live on campus.

 

Then she accuses me of "It's about money. You're allowed to be controlling if you have money!"

 

I'm trying to be proactive in discussing this stuff because she gets stuff in her head and falls apart when events don't play out according to the script that she's already made up. However, I dont' want to borrow trouble. I have a feeling that these situations will come up less frequently that she anticipates. Especially since she has an 8 am class. :)

 

There;s no way to rearrange the house to give her her own room. We're not moving.

 

 

Our house.  Our rules.  Thus goes life.

 

Oldest DD goes to college, has a job, has friends, has no curfew.  But there are expectations of thoughtfulness - such as - if she's later than expected a phone call so we know she isn't stranded, so we know if she's okay, just out of moral decency to not make people worry.   Just as I would do if I was out running errands and she was expecting ME at home.  It's just the decent thing to do.

 

And no, no 3AM mornings.  What would she need to do until 1AM?  That's not reasonable.  I was out until late when I was 16/17/18 and I can't think any of those activities were good, uplifting, or necessary.  

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Our house.  Our rules.  Thus goes life.

 

Oldest DD goes to college, has a job, has friends, has no curfew.  But there are expectations of thoughtfulness - such as - if she's later than expected a phone call so we know she isn't stranded, so we know if she's okay, just out of moral decency to not make people worry.   Just as I would do if I was out running errands and she was expecting ME at home.  It's just the decent thing to do.

 

And no, no 3AM mornings.  What would she need to do until 1AM?  That's not reasonable.  I was out until late when I was 16/17/18 and I can't think any of those activities were good, uplifting, or necessary.  

 

I was out until 1 AM or later plenty of times as a teenager.  Generally, I was either babysitting, chaperoning a dance at the center for adults with intellectual disabilities where I worked, or studying late in the library with friends.  I'd consider those things good, uplifting and necessary.

 

My son is often out past midnight since he works tech crew for a local theater.  The techies are always the last to leave and then he's got an hour or so commute home.  

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Wow, you definitely had uncommon roommates.  Not saying it was bad if it worked for you all.  I just can't imagine updating roommates on comings and goings of household members unless there was some very specific reason like being gone for vacation for a few days/week (so they don't think they are missing LOL).  I would think that very bazaar to expect of a roommate, or if a roommate updated me on their daily schedule. 

 

Well, keeping a roommate "updated on a daily schedule" might be overstating it  a bit.  We just let each other know when we expected to be back, especially if it was after 11 or so.  And (get this!) it was back in the day when that meant leaving a note, or :::shudder::: planning ahead...or carrying some change to use a pay phone.  LOL (and yes, I am smiling...)

 

It was a matter of letting people know what to expect so they weren't freaked out when someone was coming into the house/apartment at 3am.  It was just courtesy, not tethering.  

 

And so yeah, I guess I did have pretty great roommates.  Except that one year.  Ugh.

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You are entirely reasonable.  She cannot upset the entire household.  You wouldn't stay out all night without checking in, because checking in is the considerate thing to do. 

 

Could there be some rule that if she arrives after midnight, she has to sleep on the sofa? 

You are not being manipulative.  You are just trying to consider the needs of everyone else as well as her. 

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It's reasonable for her to let you know when she will be home. I'm 41 and when I go home I still let my mom know where I am and when I will be home. Frankly it's nice to know that if Something happens she will be out looking for me.

Now part 2 is that when she comes in late she isn't respectful of others who are sleeping. This needs to be fixed. The sofa or some other solution needs to be figured out.

This is a transition for your family and I expect that it will take some time to work out the kinks.

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My dd is headed off to college in the fall. She'll be commuting.

 

She's determined that it's controlling for us as parents to require her to be in at certain times (not a firm curfew but more a phone call where we decide what's appropriate depending on what's happening)

 

I have a few reasons for requiring this.

 

First, I don't sleep well when I know someone's coming in. I get up early and "listening" for someone to come in disturbs my sleep and it wakes me up. I struggle with insomia and having people come in waking me up would mean an hour or more of staring at the ceiling.

 

Second, she shares a room with a sister. No matter how quiet she promises she'll be she's just not a quiet person.Her sister will have to get up the next morning as normal. She also tends to be loud enough and turn on enough lights that she wakes up all three younger siblings.

 

Third, the way our house is laid out means that everyone else getting up will probably prohibit much sleeping in. There will be constant interruptions if she tries to sleep in, and I won't force three younger siblings to tiptoe around. I won't have them being unnecessarily loud either, but we'll just proceed as normal. \

Fourth, I'm trying to explain that families check in with each other as a point of consideration. Dh doesn't just vanish; he knows it'd worry me. I don't just stay out till 3 am because I wanted to because I don't want to worry people. Dd see this as controlling.

 

I don't expect her to come in before siblings go to bed. But there's a huge difference between coming in at 11 and disturbing people a bit and coming in at 3 am disturbing people.

 

I've told her if she doesn't like living this way, she's welcome to get an apartment or live on campus.

 

Then she accuses me of "It's about money. You're allowed to be controlling if you have money!"

 

I'm trying to be proactive in discussing this stuff because she gets stuff in her head and falls apart when events don't play out according to the script that she's already made up. However, I dont' want to borrow trouble. I have a feeling that these situations will come up less frequently that she anticipates. Especially since she has an 8 am class. :)

 

There;s no way to rearrange the house to give her her own room. We're not moving.

We've not been in your exact situation. Our eldest daughter went off to college on the other side of the country at seventeen. One of our boys did live at home and commute during his first two years of college more because my DH really felt he needed to still have that connection to home and not be completely fending for himself on a college campus (because he was considered an independent student I think he might have actually made out better financially if he lived on campus). Because we felt this was really what he needed, even if not what was going to be most appealing to him at almost nineteen, we sweetened the deal a bit and let him move into our guest house. In some ways he actually had a pretty sweet deal with free rent, dinner any time he was home at dinner time, and DH and I took care of a lot of things for him it just wouldn't have been practical for us to have taken care of for DH's son or our eldest daughter because both of them were nowhere near home. With this we did have some expectations (or perhaps conditions) for this arrangement and we laid those out and he kept up his end of the bargain.

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to work out some arrangement that your daughter is not disturbing her younger siblings (and perhaps other arrangements that involve certain responsibilities or other conduct expectations). So perhaps you say that if she is sleeping at home she needs to be home for the evening at whatever their lights out time is. Or maybe the compromise is that if she is coming home late she will need to sleep on the couch so as not to disturb siblings. Or maybe that doesn't work and maybe you just need to stand firm that she needs to be home by a certain time (perhaps there are few reasonable exceptions and of course some grace is extended for emergencies and situations beyond her control). Or maybe it just isn't realistic for her to commute and not disrupt the family and maybe she does need to live on campus or in a nearby apartment. If that is the case and you are in a financial situation to pay for or subsidize that then I think that is a nice thing you can do but I also understand if you aren't or if you feel that she is kind of thwarting making commuting work and don't feel you need to pay for this choice for her. Hang in there.

Edited by LMV
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You have said that she is trying to save money instead of living out of the home, but that she could technically afford to move out.  Does that mean she has a job?  I may have missed whether you posted regarding that.  So she is trying to save money by living in your home instead of having to pay her own living expenses while attending college?  That is logical and a mature choice to make when that type of scenario is available, especially if she is actually saving that money.  Is she planning on saving any of it?  Or maybe using the money to keep from having to borrow to attend college?  Or is this choice so she will have more spending money for hanging out with friends?  

 

I realize that you and your daughter have a challenging relationship and based on other posts (including your other post on the chat board) it appears that you really, really were hoping for a break, hoping she would move out, much as you love her.  I think you are experiencing some disappointment/frustration that she has chosen to stay home.  Her choice doesn't mean she gets to take advantage of the rest of the members of the household but I think my response would in part be based on her underlying motivations.  If she just wants more spending money to blow at will and is not being respectful of the rest of the family then I might be less willing to find ways to make the current living arrangement work out than if she is trying hard to save money for purchasing a car or to keep from incurring student loans or something else equally responsible.  She still doesn't get to disrupt the family at will but I would be working harder to help the living arrangements work out for everyone, including her, if she is genuinely trying to be responsible with her money and attending college.  

 

:grouphug:

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My dd is headed off to college in the fall. She'll be commuting.

 

She's determined that it's controlling for us as parents to require her to be in at certain times (not a firm curfew but more a phone call where we decide what's appropriate depending on what's happening)

My daughter lets me know where she is going and roughly when she will be back. I do not set a curfew for her. However, she is really good about being back at about midnightish. 

One thing your daughter is probably right about is that coming in at 11ish is hard on a young adult. So often the get-together doesn't even start until 8ish. It's far more common for young adults to stay out until midnight or 1am. My daughter is considered a bit of an early bird by her friends because she comes home at midnight. This is HER choice--she doesn't function well without sleep, and often has to get up for work in the morning. Dd's friends are not carousing and getting drunk. They're geeks who like playing board games or cards or watching movies. Most often the gathering breaks up closer to 1am, but if the game is really hot, they might stop closer to 2am on a weekend when no-one has to work the next day. Even so, dd is often home earlier because physiologically she doesn't have fun when she is tired. Dd's reality matches what I remember of college days, but in my case, I am a night owl. Now as well as back then I did not/do not get drunk. My faith as a Christian was a driving force for me to adhere to safe behavior, so staying out late (for me, for dd) was not about partying, but about silliness with good friends. I stayed out with my good friends past midnight allll the time, usually just playing cards or talking or being silly. It was harmless, and the fun was generally at night. 

 

I have a few reasons for requiring this.

 

First, I don't sleep well when I know someone's coming in. I get up early and "listening" for someone to come in disturbs my sleep and it wakes me up. I struggle with insomia and having people come in waking me up would mean an hour or more of staring at the ceiling.

Me too. As housemates, it's just a matter of consideration for others. 

 

Second, she shares a room with a sister. No matter how quiet she promises she'll be she's just not a quiet person.Her sister will have to get up the next morning as normal. She also tends to be loud enough and turn on enough lights that she wakes up all three younger siblings.

Friends of mine struggle with the fact that the husband is a very light sleeper, and he goes to bed quite early. No matter how quiet she is, she will wake him up if she tries to slip into bed later than him. On a normal day-to-day basis, she cheerfully goes to bed at the same time as him and is content to live by his early-to-bed-early-to-rise schedule. However, if she wants to stay out goofing off with her night owl friends (like me), when she comes home she uses the downstairs half-bath and sleeps on the couch.

I would not consider it acceptable AT ALL for one to wake up the other three. Frankly, it's not a family thing. It's a roommate thing. This is precisely the reason universities specifically ask about your waking/sleeping hours when placing students with a roommate so that there is some compatibility in sleep expectations. Out in the real world, roommates do not want to be woken in the middle of the night either.

 

Third, the way our house is laid out means that everyone else getting up will probably prohibit much sleeping in. There will be constant interruptions if she tries to sleep in, and I won't force three younger siblings to tiptoe around. I won't have them being unnecessarily loud either, but we'll just proceed as normal. \

I would not tiptoe around her desire to sleep in either, and that includes if she comes in late and sleeps on the couch. It's a simple matter of numbers. More people want to be up and using the house during the morning and the day. She's outvoted. It's not a family thing. It's a roommate thing. 

 

Fourth, I'm trying to explain that families check in with each other as a point of consideration. Dh doesn't just vanish; he knows it'd worry me. I don't just stay out till 3 am because I wanted to because I don't want to worry people. Dd see this as controlling.

Absolutely! When my daughter's plans change, she lets me know. Just a quick text so I have a general idea when to expect her. She's not asking my consent; she's just letting me know. It's not that big a deal, and it's the same that I do with my husband. No drama necessary.

 

I don't expect her to come in before siblings go to bed. But there's a huge difference between coming in at 11 and disturbing people a bit and coming in at 3 am disturbing people.

In any roommate situation, including a family, she must learn to come in without disturbing others. 

 

I've told her if she doesn't like living this way, she's welcome to get an apartment or live on campus.

 

Then she accuses me of "It's about money. You're allowed to be controlling if you have money!"

Actually, since you own the house, yes, you do get to decree what the rules are. Living with people requires compromises so that everyone can be comfortable. 

 

I'm trying to be proactive in discussing this stuff because she gets stuff in her head and falls apart when events don't play out according to the script that she's already made up. However, I dont' want to borrow trouble. I have a feeling that these situations will come up less frequently that she anticipates. Especially since she has an 8 am class. :)

 

There;s no way to rearrange the house to give her her own room. We're not moving.

I would loosen up on the early curfew if I were you. She's a young adult, and they tend to stay out late. It is what it is. 

The hill to die on is on notifying you where she will be and when she will come home AND working out a successful re-entry into the house. I would strongly recommend she respect rules about quiet, lights, and consider telling her she has to sleep somewhere else if she will be that late (like the couch or a camp cot in the basement or some such). It's not a matter of punishment or control. Rather, it's a matter of facilitating sleep and comfort for everyone who shares the space. Middle-aged mamas have legitimate needs, and little siblings have legitimate needs that have to be accounted for.

 

 

I have a nineteen-year-old daughter. We have been navigating some of these questions as well. My take is above.

Edited by Harriet Vane
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This is going too far:

 

And no, no 3AM mornings. What would she need to do until 1AM? That's not reasonable. I was out until late when I was 16/17/18 and I can't think any of those activities were good, uplifting, or necessary.

 

I was out past 1am a lot as a college student. Now, I had my own apartment but still. Out late absolutely does not mean up to no good. I was working a lot and any late night social activities were completely sober. If it were leisure, it was generally to see a live performance and then hang out at a 24 hour restaurant to eat and drink (coffee) with friends. Oftentimes I would study VERY late and out of my apartment so I stayed on task and didn't fall asleep before my work was done. Such is the schedule of a working multiple jobs college student. Staying on the Deans List meant sacrificing sleep at least some of the time. Disparaging someone's motives or morals just for being out late is just a big fat overstep. I would have loved being able to get all my work done before 11pm but ha ha ha ha.

 

Just because you, by your own measure, were not up to good past midnight BlvdMama does NOT mean that other young people were not or are not. Don't project your regrets over the choices you made onto others.

Edited by LucyStoner
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The more I think about this thread, the more certain I am that this is going to be a disaster for all of you.   

 

I think it's unfair to the dd sharing a room with your college dd.  It really doesn't sound like college dd is at a place to be respectful of the rest of the family.  I think you have to maintain a certain way of doing things for the sake of the rest of the family, and if your dd can't fit into those parameters then she needs to live in the dorm.   College dd really needs a bedroom by herself, and to be in an area of the house where she won't wake everyone up for this to work IMHO.

 

I think you need to sit down and think about the list of things dd needs to comply with to live at home.  Not just things that annoy you, but actual things that are for the entire household.  You don't have to be a jerk about it, but if you need her to have an 11 pm curfew (or whatever) for the sake of the rest of the family, I don't see what's unreasonable about that.   Either she complies with this stuff or needs to live in a dorm.  

 

When you have a rental agreement with a landlord there are usually demands, no noise after 10 pm, don't put nails in the wall, etc.   I don't see how this is any different or any less reasonable.  

 

 

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One thing that has occurred to me over the course of this thread is that there really isn't a rule about this.  You might end up having different rules as your life goes on...or een different rules for different people.

 

The "rule" depends on the needs of the family, and those who are *required* to live under the same roof might get more consideration as to what needs to happen.  The "rule" we have at our house would make no sense to some people because they don't have the issues we have with certain things.  If we didn't have these particular issues, we would have different rules.  If we were different people, we would have different rules.  

 

I'm jumpy.  I *have* to live here.  That means that my 21yo son needs to show the consideration of telling us an ETA...not where he is, but *when* we can expect that door to open, because otherwise *I* get to be a wreck the next day.  He doesn't have to live here.  

 

And we tell him when he can expect us, so, as he puts it, he can get all the supermodels out of the house in time.  :0)  

 

So take the feedback you got here for what it is worth, and find the rule you can live with and then stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la la".  

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I don't do curfews at any age for any of my kids. Grown or not. I've always had the view that if they are up to no good, I don't care what time it is. If they are doing good, again, I don't care what time it is.

 

But I insist on quiet nights. If they couldn't make it in quietly, I'd be showing them the sofa. I'm not dealing with all my younger kids being sleep deprived turds bc someone can't figure out how to be considerate.

 

That said, I usually know where my grown kids are day or night. They let me know their work schedules and if it changes, plans for after work and usually stop before leaving the house to update me on plans and ask how things are going with everyone else in the house, tell me how work went or whatever fun they had with their buddies and should they grab milk on the way back or what all.

 

This is not controlling. It's staying connected with family. I do the same things. So does dh. It's exactly what being an adult looks like.

 

I'm a very light sleeper, so there's no way I'm not going to know they got home. But a few minutes of entryway to bed shouldn't wake the entire house. There's no reason to be rummaging through and waking the entire house. I'd tell them to knock it off.

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I lived at home when I went to college. I had one rule.

I had to let my parents know when I expected to be home or if I was spending the night somewhere else.

 

It was not a control thing it was a respectful of other people thing. Parents worry so I made a phone call and let them know if plans changed. And this was before the ease of sending a text. I had to find a payphone if I was out. It was really not that big of a deal.

 

You putting it as a "we get to tell you when you have to be home" does give the perception of trying to control what she does and I can understand her chafing at it. I think a change in phrasing and an adult discussion will fix the perception issue.

 

This is pretty much our rule, adding that if they are driving home from a remote area alone, I appreciate a text when they set out. If they are out late a few nights in a row, I will joke that they need an early evening because mama needs to catch up on some sleep. It is truly a matter of respect.

 

However, we just have summer kids, they are on their own when school is in session, and our necessarily earlier school year routines are not affected. I think it's fine of you to set some "landlord's" guidelines, but present it as a matter of respect and maturity. 

 

Did she not think this would be an issue when she made the choice to be a commuting college student? I believe in treating my older children as adults....when they accept adult level responsibilities and attitudes.

Edited by Seasider
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With that eight am class I'd sure be looking hard at living on campus. I did the commute thing myself, and I never realized just how nice it was to be able to get to an early class without having to kill myself to get out the door on time. If she likes the late nights, and she's fussing about having to be in at a certain time, I would sure have her look hard at a dorm. You can frame it so it is about her---and it sort of is. You want to be rested for your day, she needs to be rested for hers, and with her living at home, doesn't sound like anybody is going to be happy.

 

You know, if parking turns out to be insane like it is on every college campus I've experienced, she just might change her mind and move out to campus after the first semester!

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Our rule when our sons were still living here was Don't Make The Mama Worry.

 

If you are going to be late, let me know. My husband and I do this as well. It's just common courtesy.

 

We always had to laugh when one of our sons got to be an 'adult' and thought that meant he didn't have to do squat around the house. Or that he could stay up all night and still expect us to be quiet in the mornings so he could sleep. Uh...no.

 

I like the be a good roommate analogy--it works.

 

Sharing a room with a sibling makes it harder, but it's do-able.

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I don't do curfews at any age for any of my kids. Grown or not. I've always had the view that if they are up to no good, I don't care what time it is. If they are doing good, again, I don't care what time it is.

 

But I insist on quiet nights. If they couldn't make it in quietly, I'd be showing them the sofa. I'm not dealing with all my younger kids being sleep deprived turds bc someone can't figure out how to be considerate.

 

That said, I usually know where my grown kids are day or night. They let me know their work schedules and if it changes, plans for after work and usually stop before leaving the house to update me on plans and ask how things are going with everyone else in the house, tell me how work went or whatever fun they had with their buddies and should they grab milk on the way back or what all.

 

This is not controlling. It's staying connected with family. I do the same things. So does dh. It's exactly what being an adult looks like.

 

I'm a very light sleeper, so there's no way I'm not going to know they got home. But a few minutes of entryway to bed shouldn't wake the entire house. There's no reason to be rummaging through and waking the entire house. I'd tell them to knock it off.

I love the bolded. That's what I'm trying to communicate with her but I struck out this morning.

This is I think where we'll be headed.

If it matters, my college kids much prefer home life to dorm or apartment life, so I must not be too awful to live with. Comparatively anyways. ðŸ˜

I have a huge feeling that she'll get that apartment with the 6 month lease, and then come back home. She'll like the freedom but hate the fact that she doesn't have automatic company all the time. (extrovert, hates being alone) And she'll hate paying all the bills and managing all the adulty stuff. And she'll hate having to clean ALL the house, instead of just her areas. And she'll actually MISS being here. She's got it pretty good. She just doesn't realize it right now.

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Thanks for all of your input folks.

 

I also think that she's annoyed that all of her friends are either working or out of town for the last few weeks. She works mornings and had hoped to have the afternoon/evening times to hang out and enjoy her friends, but it didn't work out that way. So now she's at loose ends and walking around finding stuff to grumble about.

 

I also think that she's brought up this situation to other adults. Adults who never homeschooled who only had one or two kids. Totally apples to oranges, and hearing other adults say, Well, your mom and dad are going to have to change on that.They shouldn't tell you when you are able to come in..."

 

Well, I'll say it rankled. I was sort of in the place of "I don't care what x,y, z parent thinks. I can make the rules I want to have in my own house."

 

Frustrating!

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Generally speaking, I think this might be a disaster. I get wanting to save money, but I think it would be worth every cent for her to live on campus for the first year. After a year with a roommate, cafeteria food and no curfews, she might be a much better housemate.

My ds1 is home for the summer, having to share a room with his brother. Even though he has been most mature about living en famille, there are still bumps in the road. You are absolutely correct in that family should tell each other where they are going and generally when they should be back. Family should be considerate of the household needs for quiet and sleep, and they should be considerate with food, prep and cleaning. And if they can't or won't be, they they are most welcome to find another arrangement. Her living arrangements after 18 are her responsibility. She can pay or she can be mature, responsible, and considerate.

I lived at home when I went to college. I didn't really have a curfew, but I did inform my parents if it was a really late night. I also was responsible for cleaning the entire house weekly, in lieu of rent. It was a large two story and it took 3 full hours every Friday. I was grateful for the free place, and it was highly motivating to graduate as quickly as possible. But I wish I had lived on campus at least one year, for the experience.

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This. I lived at home until I was about 23. I had to let my parents know when I would be home. It's simple courtesy. DH does the same for me; I do the same for DH. 

 

I lived at home when I went to college. I had one rule.
I had to let my parents know when I expected to be home or if I was spending the night somewhere else.

It was not a control thing it was a respectful of other people thing. Parents worry so I made a phone call and let them know if plans changed. And this was before the ease of sending a text. I had to find a payphone if I was out. It was really not that big of a deal.

You putting it as a "we get to tell you when you have to be home" does give the perception of trying to control what she does and I can understand her chafing at it. I think a change in phrasing and an adult discussion will fix the perception issue.

 

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If she pulls the "I am an adult and you can't tell me what to do" respond "I am also an adult - been one far longer than you - and I do not choose to have you waking your sister and half the household coming and going at all hours" etc. Why can't she live on campus or share an apartment with other students? Is saving money worth the wear and tear that her commuting may take on family life?

 

Might as well add - my oldest dd had a similar attitude. She moved out when she was 20, now has her own town home with three roomies now, works full time, and goes to the local cc part time. We get along far better now. She will be 23 in November. Her kid sister, 20, lives at home and plans to do so while she finishes at the local cc before transferring to the state school. Works fine for all of us. Each kid is different.

Edited by JFSinIL
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I don't think it's unreasonable to have some ground rules.  However, an 11 pm curfew for a college student is not reasonable IMO.  Sharing a room with a sibling that looks at least 5 years younger (given your sig) is not really fair to either the young adult or the younger sibling either.  Just given what you've written about in the tension in your relationship, I'd seriously consider having her moving on campus for all your sanity levels.  I think having her sleep on the couch or an air mattress somewhere less disruptive is a good short term compromise for a late arrival home.  If nothing else, the campus experience may have her seeing the situation differently.

 

My parents never had a curfew for us as young adults.  We just had to let them know where we'd be and roughly when we'd be home, with a call if that were changing.

Edited by WoolySocks
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I keep coming back to this and changing my thoughts a little.

I think the thing that's bothering me here is the phone call where you decide what's reasonable.  To me that's what sounds like you're treating her like a child.  It feels like your judging her choices.

 

I do think you can maybe make a plan where there are clear expectations.

 

1) Be home by X time on weekdays and Y time on weekends if you expect to sleep in your own bed.

 

2) If you arrive home after X/Y time, sleep on the couch.  Stash some pj's, and extra toothbrush, and whatever else you might need under the sink in the powder room*.  Don't go in your room and wake up your sister.  

 

3) If you're not going to be home until Z time, then please arrange to sleep at a friend's.

 

4) Let us know whether you're picking 1, 2 or 3 by X/Y time.

 

5) If you come home to sleep on the couch, turn off the porch light so if I a parent wakes up they'll know you're home.  

 

6) If this sounds like too much to live with, let's revisit the dorm idea.

 

That to me is an agreement for an adult.  You aren't deciding "what's appropriate".  You're simply setting boundaries around your needs.

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My parents ended up paying for an efficiency apt for my older sister because she was too disruptive. I was a senior in high school when she was a freshman in college. She would talk on the phone in her room into the early morning hours (1-2) and keep me awake. I would ask her to please be quiet and she would be rude to me. I would then wake up my mother. My mom got annoyed with being woken so she made my sister move out. They found an efficiency apt in the house of a friend of the family so she could kinda keep track of my sister.

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I think you are mostly in the right.  Most of the things you are worried about have also applied when I had roomates that were unrelated to me - we expected others to be sensitive to others needs, not waking each other up, and so on.  And we also tried to let each other know when we would be home or where we were going - that's a good safety practice.

 

However - I don't see a curfew working well for someone that age, and I think an 11pm curfew is inappropriate.  There are all kinds of things that go on at university that will go later than that, and I see that as a curfew on an adult.

 

The room sharing is a problem, I think - I'd look for a solution there if at all possible.

Edited by Bluegoat
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That's how it works here.  We ask that our adult dd be home by 11PM.  We have a dog that will wake the dead when ANYONE comes in the door.  We are usually in bed by 10:30, and don't really like being jolted awake by a miniature Cujo.  It is consideration for the other people that live here.  She also knows that she is welcome to either get her own place, or make other arrangements for sleeping somewhere else if she doesn't feel like she'll be home before then. (and by this I mean sleeping over at a friend's house where it isn't a big deal to come in later)  We also ask to be informed of when she'll be home, just like dh and I let each other know our rough schedule.  

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I keep coming back to this and changing my thoughts a little.

 

I think the thing that's bothering me here is the phone call where you decide what's reasonable.  To me that's what sounds like you're treating her like a child.  It feels like your judging her choices.

 

I do think you can maybe make a plan where there are clear expectations.

 

1) Be home by X time on weekdays and Y time on weekends if you expect to sleep in your own bed.

 

2) If you arrive home after X/Y time, sleep on the couch.  Stash some pj's, and extra toothbrush, and whatever else you might need under the sink in the powder room*.  Don't go in your room and wake up your sister.  

 

3) If you're not going to be home until Z time, then please arrange to sleep at a friend's.

 

4) Let us know whether you're picking 1, 2 or 3 by X/Y time.

 

5) If you come home to sleep on the couch, turn off the porch light so if I a parent wakes up they'll know you're home.  

 

6) If this sounds like too much to live with, let's revisit the dorm idea.

 

That to me is an agreement for an adult.  You aren't deciding "what's appropriate".  You're simply setting boundaries around your needs.

 

:iagree: Especially the bolded. They may not even know what they plan to do, but just that their friends are staying out longer. It could be they are going to hear a band play, catch a late movie, or just drive around and get a bite to eat.

 

Also agreeing with LucyStoner about late night plans. I often was doing things like going to hear a band play or eat somewhere late with my friends like Waffle House. Back in the day we even used to have access to midnight movies at one of the casinos.

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This makes it seem like you're doing her a huge favor, putting up with her while she goes to college, and you'd really rather she moved out.

If she's at least 18 and a high school graduate, then the parents ARE doing her a favor in allowing her to continue living with them. Parents are under no obligation to continue to support able-bodied adult offspring. It is a generous gift that they choose to do so, but financial support typically comes with strings.

 

If she doesn't like those strings, then she needs to put on her big-girl pants and figure out a way to pay for her own room & board. My IL's refused to pay a dime towards my DH's college so he got an ROTC scholarship. Where there's a will, there's a way.

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I wonder how much of her complaining and arguing is actually some anxiety about the whole college thing showing? It's probably just now coming home to her how much things are going to change. The friends she had? Maybe gone by next year. Free time? What's that?  And that whole independence thing-how's that work when you are hungry and there isn't anything in the refrigerator to be had, and you've got a test to study for and there really isn't time to make a sandwich?'

On one hand, it sound really cool to have your own life and run it. On the other hand it is terrifying...

Her arguments remind me of a kid who wants to grow up but wants to have it the same way forever, and it's just hard, and not doable. 

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Her arguments remind me of a kid who wants to grow up but wants to have it the same way forever, and it's just hard, and not doable. 

 

This is SO my dd. She'll freely admit that she has a bit of a peter pan syndrome going on.

 

I know her attitude problems today stem from all her friends being so busy this summer.

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If it weren't for the fact that she's sharing a room I'd say unfair (not her fault that you can't sleep when she's quiet). So instead if she's going to be out late she needs to make other arrangements for a place to crash. I often stayed at friends/boyfriends  apt. or dorm rooms also I would sleep in my car in the driveway if the weather wasn't too bad.  My mom had a reclining lawn chair out by the pool that I used in the Summer. 

 

I would expect a phone call saying that DC wasn't going to be home that night.  I also like the idea of a bed/sleep place in the garage. That's what my 21 year old brother does during the Summer if he's out late.

 

 

ETA- Just to clarify, I would expect a phone call informing me not asking.

Edited by foxbridgeacademy
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I've had this situation. 

1. Legal adults don't have to ask for permission, but most tell the someone ( simple text will do) they're living with if they'll be home for dinner or for bed.  

2. Anyone living in a household should be respectfully quiet of everyone's regular quiet hours.

If a person can't be an adult by doing 1 and 2 then maybe they needed to be treated like a child:

A. get permission to be out

B. have an earlier assigned curfew so they don't wake everyone else up.

 

The college student should choose one scenario or the other.

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In case this is helpful - her is how we work it for DS20 who lives at home and goes to school full time.

 

He knows we usually start shutting down the house around 9pm. DD15 is in her room and DH and I are heading that way. If he is going to be out later than 9, he sends me a text message. It's the same thing DH or I would do, so it's reasonable.

 

When he comes in, he is usually hungry and gets food. He tries to be quiet, but sometimes he wakes me up. Unfortunate - I'm a light sleeper. Sometimes I get up (since I'm awake anyways) and talk to him. Other times, I turn over and just try to go back to sleep. As long as he is trying to be quiet, I try not to let it irritate me. The few times he was unreasonably noisy, we had a discussion about it. I try to be very clear about our expectations.

 

We try to be considerate of his schedule too - no vacuuming or music practice until noon on the days he gets to sleep in. He appreciates that and so it works out.

 

If DS20 was consistently noisy and waking people up, we would help him find other living arrangements. Not a threat - it would just be that our schedules would be too incompatible.

 

Hope this helps.

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