Is this an unfair mindset?

[fairfarmhand]

Thanks for your input folks. It was helpful.

Edited July 19, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[Guest]

No matter where she lives, there will be quiet hours. If she cant agree to yours, she must find a different landlord.

[Bambam]

I don't think it is unfair. She is just one person living in a house with five other people. You have to make compromises and try to make things work the best for everyone. It won't be perfect, but you strive to find a workable situation.  You have to do things slightly different than you would if you lived alone. It is part of the package deal.

 

Would a family meeting where everyone meets to discuss this work or not?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Our commuter student has a bedroom in the garage. There is no way I'd allow a college-aged adult to disrupt the sleep of a minor sibling.

 

But honestly, there's also no way I'd let a grown child of mine accuse me of chicanery and manipulation just for trying to run a decent household while generously offering free room and board...if she has other options, I'd let her take them...

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, yes, in a way, you are allowed to be controlling if you have money.  It's not about controlling her as much as controlling your own living environment for you and your  younger children. 

[Daria]

No matter where she lives, there will be quiet hours. If she cant agree to yours, she must find a different landlord.

 

What colleges have quiet hours that prevent students from coming and going?  

 

I think asking her to let you know when she's going to be home past a certain hour is fine, and of course she should come in as quietly as possible.   But I don't think that an adult should be in the position of having to ask permission.  

[Um_2_4]

I commuted in college to our local state school and I did not have younger sibs to worry about waking, but I let my parents know if I'd be home for dinner or out late studying. I didn't have a curfew on the weekend, but let my parents know where and with whom I'd be and about when I'd be home. Just courtesy when sharing an abode.

And it wasn't really about $ either. I had a full ride plus stipend. I could have afforded an apt with a roommate, but chose to stay home to save my $ for travel in the summers.

[fairfarmhand]

What colleges have quiet hours that prevent students from coming and going?  

 

I think asking her to let you know when she's going to be home past a certain hour is fine, and of course she should come in as quietly as possible.   But I don't think that an adult should be in the position of having to ask permission.  

 

thanks.

Edited July 19, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[Lang Syne Boardie]

What colleges have quiet hours that prevent students from coming and going?  

 

I think asking her to let you know when she's going to be home past a certain hour is fine, and of course she should come in as quietly as possible.   But I don't think that an adult should be in the position of having to ask permission.  

 

That works for my son, as his room is in the garage and he's got his own entrance. But I don't see how it works if the OP's daughter is sharing a bedroom with her sister, coming and going in the family's bedrooms, hallways, and bathrooms area of the house in the middle of the night.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think it is a bit unfair.  I think I'd only ask that she tell you when she'll be home as a courtesy (the same courtesy I'd give to anyone I'd live with so they don't worry).  I wouldn't phrase it that you'd decide when she has to be home based on the circumstances.  And I'd emphasize that this is all dependent upon her being thoughtful enough not to come home super late and making a ton of noise because she shares a room with someone else.  All just common courtesy, and I wouldn't treat that as problematic until it actually is.

 

 

[mamiof5]

Nothing wrong with that requirement. She can go somewhere else if she thinks she can find something better

[8circles]

Well, I do think she's right that it's too controlling for an adult that doesn't want that.  But I don't think that makes you unreasonable.  It just seems like it isn't the right fit for living arrangements.  

 

I also think it's true that if you have money you can afford to make more of the rules.  It seems she cannot afford a situation where she has more control.  I feel for her because I did have to live at home as an adult in school and it really sucked.  

 

Not that you asked - but I'd really try to brainstorm a solution that you'd both be happy with. 

[Daria]

My point is that it's not all about her. Our home is what it is. I can't allow one young person to disrupt the life of everyone else in the household. If she doesn't like that, okay.Be an adult and have your own place. That's being an adult. If you don't like where you're living (neighbors are obnoxious, landlord is a jerk, etc.) you move.

 

This makes it seem like you're doing her a huge favor, putting up with her while she goes to college, and you'd really rather she moved out.  Is that correct?

 

Is college a goal that you have for her, or is it something she's doing against your will?  Would you really be happier if she moved out and didn't go to college?  Are you able to help her make living on campus affordable?

[luuknam]

You could say "okay, no curfew for now, but if you disrupt people we'll have a family vote on the matter, which might mean we might vote for you to have a curfew". And, I agree, it's about controlling your own (and your other kids') living environment, not about controlling her.

[kewb]

I lived at home when I went to college. I had one rule.

I had to let my parents know when I expected to be home or if I was spending the night somewhere else.

 

It was not a control thing it was a respectful of other people thing. Parents worry so I made a phone call and let them know if plans changed. And this was before the ease of sending a text. I had to find a payphone if I was out. It was really not that big of a deal.

 

You putting it as a "we get to tell you when you have to be home" does give the perception of trying to control what she does and I can understand her chafing at it. I think a change in phrasing and an adult discussion will fix the perception issue.

[Zebra]

I completely misread this at first, I thought she was GOING AWAY TO COLLEGE!   Totally my fault, not yours.

 

You are completely in the right here.   She isn't living in a dorm, and she can't act like she is living in a dorm.   If she wants to live in a dorm, she should live in a dorm.  It's unfortunate if she wants to live in a dorm, and she can't afford it or whatever, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

 

If she's living in your house and sharing a room with a sibling, yep, she's going to have to be more considerate of your family than she if she was living in a dorm.  That's just the way it is.

[LucyStoner]

It's appropriate for any household member to let another household member to know when they are coming home. It's also a safety matter. letting people know when to expect you let's them know when to start worrying.

 

When I first read your post I thought you might be talking about a curfew for a student living on campus and I thought that was crazy but living in a home together requires mutual courtesy like letting someone know when you will be late.

 

I think I would tell her that since her sister wakes easily, if she gets home after a certain hour she should crash on the couch until the morning.

[City Mouse]

I was a commuter college student for two years. I do think that a curtesy call to let you know when she will be home is appropriate, but a11:00 curfew for a college student does seem a bit extreme to me.

 

What about a discussion with her regarding the issues, and have her help come up with a solution such as if she comes in late she uses a flashlight and sleeps on the couch so as not to disturb her sister. Or possibly coming in at 11 on school nights (of the younger kids) and staying out later on weekends. However, I don't think it is fair to force a curfew on her just because you have sleep issues. On the other hand, I would not change your regular morning routines because she came home late and wants to sleep in.

 

I do think that pushing the moving out issue is opening a can of worms unless you really want her to move out. I have know too many kids who were in similar situations who got an apartment (usually shared) then had to work more to pay for it and took less classes, and never got that degree.

[luuknam]

This makes it seem like you're doing her a huge favor, putting up with her while she goes to college, and you'd really rather she moved out.  Is that correct?

 

I think that's overly harsh to the OP. If you're living with other people, you can't just do whatever you want, doesn't matter if you're now 18 or w/e.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

In re-reading the OP, I just don't see how this arrangement will work without a very compliant adult child who's on board with (and maybe even likes) the home structure enough to tolerate it and comply cheerfully. But I don't think very many college-aged students would fit that description, and I think it's obvious that the OP's daughter does not!

 

If there are other options, I'd pursue them. If there are not...what's the state of your garage? Can you get a camper/caravan to park in the driveway? Could she rent a room with a relative cheaper than sharing an apartment or dorm?

 

[fairfarmhand]

This makes it seem like you're doing her a huge favor, putting up with her while she goes to college, and you'd really rather she moved out.  Is that correct?

 

Is college a goal that you have for her, or is it something she's doing against your will?  Would you really be happier if she moved out and didn't go to college?  Are you able to help her make living on campus affordable?

 

edited

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[shawthorne44]

Since she will wake up the younger siblings, I'd flat out make a rule that if she isn't in bed by X time, then she is sleeping on the couch.    Then you wouldn't have to worry about the younger siblings.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Actually my parents never required me to tell them any of that ever.  They might have been unusual, but nope they did not.  And we lived in a microscopic apartment.  I shared a room, but you couldn't blink anywhere in the place without people not knowing.

 

 

[Janeway]

I would just say "you are darned right I can make the decisions when it is my money. If you do not like it, get a job and pay all your own bills, including tuition, car, gas, insurance, food, etc. Until then, my car, my gas, my house, my decisions."

[SKL]

If she is an adult, I think the thing to do is sit down and talk about considerate sharing of a home.  I wouldn't make "rules" but would discuss best practices and see how it goes, with the understanding that you, as the homeowner and parent of the minor kids, may rescind her privileges if things don't go well.  If it turns out she is inconsiderate to the sister with whom she shares a room, she will have to stop sharing with that sister and figure out something else, possibly paying room & board if that makes sense.  She can sleep on the couch for a while if she fails to be a good roommate.

 

On the other hand, if she can be reasonably quiet while entering the house, I don't think Mom's tendency to wake up at every sound is fair to put on her.  Mom should train herself to not stay up late waiting for an adult to return IMO.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

College is her idea. She could on paper afford to live in the dorms. Her idea is it's cheaper to stay at home.

 

As to putting up with her...

 

:)

 

She's not always the easiest person to live with.

 

Ah. So you are choosing this scenario, as much as she is choosing it. :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would just say "you are darned right I can make the decisions when it is my money. If you do not like it, get a job and pay all your own bills, including tuition, car, gas, insurance, food, etc. Until then, my car, my gas, my house, my decisions."

 

Oh come on.  Kids aren't our property.  We aren't their puppet masters.  Unless we want to go the rest of our lives butting heads why treat them like crap?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Since she will wake up the younger siblings, I'd flat out make a rule that if she isn't in bed by X time, then she is sleeping on the couch.    Then you wouldn't have to worry about the younger siblings.  

 

That seems like a reasonable compromise. 

[Janeway]

And you know what? When I was in college, I frequently stayed with a variety of people when school was out of session. I never ever came and went as I pleased. Even when I was a live-in nanny, I was expected to not just come and go at all hours. That is simply just respectful for the people you are with.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I realize with this particular child it will be hard to help her see your viewpoint and until she does or at least accepts what you are saying (whether she agrees or not) it will probably cause friction.  

 

I agree, would a family meeting help?  Or would she feel ganged up on?

 

Is there any way to convert a part of the garage or have bedding set aside for her to sleep on the couch on nights she will be coming in really late?

 

And yeah, you are being reasonable in that she is sharing space with other members of the household.  Yes, she is an adult but she is sharing a bedroom with a minor sibling and because of the layout of the house coming in late means potentially waking everyone else.  She needs to accept that the other members of the household need to be treated with courtesy and respect.  Even in a dorm I had to keep my roommates' schedule and mine fairly compatible.  We tried to be quiet and not wake each other and if either of us needed to get up super early we notified the other of the change in schedule in case they had plans to invite friends over to watch TV or something.  

 

That being said, I think she is right about this:  "She's determined that it's controlling for us as parents to require her to be in at certain times (not a firm curfew but more a phone call where we decide what's appropriate depending on what's happening)."  She is an adult now.  I get your reasons for having concerns about her coming in late but she is an adult.  This requirement does sound controlling.  I agree with up thread, instead of making requirements and you deciding what is appropriate, maybe let her know that you and she can see how things go but you do expect a phone call if she will be out really late.  If this living situation becomes unreasonably disruptive you and the rest of the family (including her) will have to brainstorm other options or revisit the idea of her finding another living arrangement (but please not like a threat, only in a supportive way for the family and the individuals within that family, including your daughter).  

 

I hope that you can both find a way to communicate through this situation and work out something that is supportive of all of you.  It isn't that you would be catering to her every whim.  It would be showing her respect as an adult member of the household to acknowledge that she is now no longer a child and should have more say so over her schedule (while still being respectful of those she is sharing space with).

 

:grouphug: 

Edited July 18, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Guest]

It's your house.  You count, too.

 

A friend of mine had her son come home from school after his freshman year, and he was sooooo full of himself and his adulthood, all summer long.  My friend told him that was the last time he could live with them, because he was a terrible roommate.  They had treated him like a roommate--with respective chores, participation in the running of the household, and so on, and he had not been a participate *as a roommate.*  

 

I found this way of framing it really helpful.  At this point, he was considered a roommate, no longer a dependent.  When he refused to participate as a roommmate, he got the boot.  

 

People over 18 are legally adults, but if they don't act like adults, they don't get treated like adults.  Adults consider the people around them; they find ways to get along and help out and be amiable.  You're not an adult just because you have turned 18.  I know 2 15 year olds who are more adult than most 18-24 year olds I know.  Because they act...like adults.  So yes, it is reasonable to ask for the kind of "curfew" you have requested...that you know when to expect someone to enter your house...or not.  Same expectation we have for each other as adults.   

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I would just say "you are darned right I can make the decisions when it is my money. If you do not like it, get a job and pay all your own bills, including tuition, car, gas, insurance, food, etc. Until then, my car, my gas, my house, my decisions."

 

I don't talk to my teen and adult kids that way. I don't allow them to walk all over me, but I try to remember that I'm raising and dealing with human souls and I want relationships to last a lifetime.

[Guest]

She gets to suck it up and deal with the house rules until she can afford her on place. Yes, you hav the control, because it's your damn house.

 

I have no patience for this sort of thing. She needs a reality check that at this point she is living under your roof and her age doesn't matter. I'm a married woman with more kids than my own mother ever had and still, when I visit home I observe ALL the rules of the house, stated and unspoken, because she is allowing me the courtesy of staying with her. It's not a right and she is doing me a favor.

 

Asking for a call and basic quiet hours is something she has to agree to or she gets the boot. This is a lesson is real world power dynamics AND courtesy. He who has the gold makes the rules, even when it's your mama.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[SKL]

And as for her comment "you get to control if you have the money," yep princess buttercup, that's how it works (as far as property use goes).  You'll appreciate that when you're the one with the money.  :)

Edited July 18, 2016 by SKL

[MinivanMom]

In re-reading the OP, I just don't see how this arrangement will work without a very compliant adult child who's on board with (and maybe even likes) the home structure enough to tolerate it and comply cheerfully. But I don't think very many college-aged students would fit that description, and I think it's obvious that the OP's daughter does not!

 

If there are other options, I'd pursue them. If there are not...what's the state of your garage? Can you get a camper/caravan to park in the driveway? Could she rent a room with a relative cheaper than sharing an apartment or dorm?

 

I agree.

 

It sounds like your daughter would be much happier living in the dorm. While I applaud her desire to save money, I would strongly encourage her to rethink her decision - not because she's unwanted - but because it sounds like she would genuinely be happier with a little more freedom and space.

[goldberry]

 

 

She's determined that it's controlling for us as parents to require her to be in at certain times (not a firm curfew but more a phone call where we decide what's appropriate depending on what's happening)

 

.

 

I was all with you until this.  It seems the "we decide what's appropriate depending upon what's happening" is more in the parenting mode than the landlord mode.  It's like you get to decide what is "worth" staying out late or not, when that really isn't your decision any more.

 

I could see requiring her to call as a courtesy.  I could also see requiring that she not disturb the household coming in.  If she can't not disturb the household, then additional steps might need to be taken.  

 

We have made it clear to DD that we don't owe her to let her live with us after she graduates high school.  That said, we want to help her and are happy to, if we can all work together happily.  That said, DH and I have tried to consider how to best balance her coming adulthood with our household standards.

 

Of course, you are dead right you can make whatever rules you want, your house.  But since you did ask if it was fair... actually, I would think more in terms of it not being the most appropriate way of dealing with an adult. 

[fairfarmhand]

I agree.

 

It sounds like your daughter would be much happier living in the dorm. While I applaud her desire to save money, I would strongly encourage her to rethink her decision - not because she's unwanted - but because it sounds like she would genuinely be happier with a little more freedom and space.

 

edited

Edited July 19, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[Loowit]

One thing I really appreciated about my parents was them allowing me to stay home while at college and them treating me as an adult.  They didn't have a curfew for me after graduation, but they did ask me to check in with them if I was going to be late.  I wasn't asking their permission or input, it was me being courteous to them.  I hope to treat my children the same.  I don't ask permission to stay out late from my DH nor does he ask me.  We let each other know because it is the polite thing to do.  Sometimes coming home late does disturb sleep patterns, but that is part of life.  If it becomes an issue we find a way to deal with it.

[fairfarmhand]

I was all with you until this.  It seems the "we decide what's appropriate depending upon what's happening" is more in the parenting mode than the landlord mode.  It's like you get to decide what is "worth" staying out late or not, when that really isn't your decision any more.

 

I could see requiring her to call as a courtesy.  I could also see requiring that she not disturb the household coming in.  If she can't not disturb the household, then additional steps might need to be taken.  

 

We have made it clear to DD that we don't owe her to let her live with us after she graduates high school.  That said, we want to help her and are happy to, if we can all work together happily.  That said, DH and I have tried to consider how to best balance her coming adulthood with our household standards.

 

Of course, you are dead right you can make whatever rules you want, your house.  But since you did ask if it was fair... actually, I would think more in terms of it not being the most appropriate way of dealing with an adult. 

 

edited

Edited July 19, 2016 by fairfarmhand

[goldberry]

It's your house.  You count, too.

 

A friend of mine had her son come home from school after his freshman year, and he was sooooo full of himself and his adulthood, all summer long.  My friend told him that was the last time he could live with them, because he was a terrible roommate.  They had treated him like a roommate--with respective chores, participation in the running of the household, and so on, and he had not been a participate *as a roommate.*  

 

I found this way of framing it really helpful.  At this point, he was considered a roommate, no longer a dependent.  When he refused to participate as a roommmate, he got the boot.  

 

People over 18 are legally adults, but if they don't act like adults, they don't get treated like adults.  Adults consider the people around them; they find ways to get along and help out and be amiable.  You're not an adult just because you have turned 18.  I know 2 15 year olds who are more adult than most 18-24 year olds I know.  Because they act...like adults.  So yes, it is reasonable to ask for the kind of "curfew" you have requested...that you know when to expect someone to enter your house...or not.  Same expectation we have for each other as adults.   

 

See, I totally agree with the roommate concept.  But would you have your roommate call and say, "I want to stay out later, can I?"  That's kind of weird.  I don't think you would see that in real life.  That's more controlling.  Instead, you would say, "Quit waking everybody up when you come in! If you keep doing that you will have to leave!"

[SKL]

But yeah, parenting an older child includes showing them how they will be treated as adults - the good and the bad of it.  At any age, when you're in a group it's never all about you.

 

I am about to turn 50, yet I give people a general idea of whether I'm going to be home late or "really late" or not at all.  I even have the courtesy to tell my kids when I expect to be home.  I don't think it's too much to ask for some respectful communication.  But setting a curfew etc., no.

[goldberry]

The reason I framed it like that is that she historically is so stinkin inconsiderate about others when she comes in at night. If we have a busy early day the next day, I sure don't want to chance my younger kids being awake at midnight because sister came in, flipped on the lights, and oh, since younger sis is now awake, let's chat about our day.

 

Then I would address THAT behavior and draw some hard lines about it.  As a minor, you were obligated to provide her a space regardless of her rudeness in that area.  You are no longer obligated.  Let her know that is something you won't tolerate anymore as an adult living with you.

[8circles]

The reason I framed it like that is that she historically is so stinkin inconsiderate about others when she comes in at night. If we have a busy early day the next day, I sure don't want to chance my younger kids being awake at midnight because sister came in, flipped on the lights, and oh, since younger sis is now awake, let's chat about our day.

 

If you don't want her living at home, then just say "no, you cannot live here".  

 

But honestly, I think it's weird that she hasn't learned basic courtesy at her age.  Are you sure there isn't something else going on?  

[goldberry]

I think you're probably right.

 

I really hoped for her to stay on campus. (Honestly, I had a wicked, secret hope that she'd get a roommate that was enough like her that she figured out how difficult inconsiderate, un-self-aware people are to live with. I think it would do her a world of good.)

 

I have had the same hope...  and yet likely will have mine at home as well!   :grouphug:

[TechWife]

I do see the point about her sharing a room, I really do. What is the schedule now? Is she required to be in bed at a certain time? If not, how does she arrange to not wake her younger sister? 

 

Generally speaking, I don't think it's appropriate for her to have a strict curfew, but I didn't grow up with a curfew, either. I always told my parents where I was going and when I would be home and we discussed it if they didn't think it was appropriate and we reached a conclusion together. I was the only one of five kids my parents did this with and I am the youngest (I'm also the only one who never snuck out). I also never abused that privilege. When I lived at home as an adult, I told my parents approximately when I would be home so they would not worry. We didn't have discussions other than casual conversation about my plans. 

 

If making a lot of noise and turning on the lights is a habit that she has now, then what would change other than the potential time? I would let her know of the expectation that she is quiet, etc. 

 

Can she change her clothing and do other bedtime preparations in the bathroom instead of the bedroom? 

 

Does she have a flashlight or a small lamp that she can use? 

 

If you aren't willing for her to live at home as an adult (meaning allowing her to act like an adult), then I think you need to be honest with her and encourage her to find other housing. That would be better for everyone in the long run. 

 

As a frame of reference, ds' dorm has quiet hours between midnight and six in the morning. This just means no loud talking or yelling in the hallways. Students can come and go 24/7. 

 

Just some ideas that might (or might not) help. Transitions can be tough. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hopefully she'll mature some. 

[Guest]

See, I totally agree with the roommate concept.  But would you have your roommate call and say, "I want to stay out later, can I?"  That's kind of weird.  I don't think you would see that in real life.  That's more controlling.  Instead, you would say, "Quit waking everybody up when you come in! If you keep doing that you will have to leave!"

Well, I guess it wouldn't be really asking for permission.  But still, I would think it would be fairly normal to call and say, "I'm going to be out super late tonight--don't expect me until 3 at least."  I guess it depends on how jumpy the roommates are...but I have always been the jumpy one, hearing noises where there are none, so waiting without expectation of time of arrival just makes me lose sleep.  Always has.  I had really considerate roommates, I guess...well, except that ONE year.  Ugh.  :0)

[chiguirre]

College is her idea. She could on paper afford to live in the dorms. Her idea is it's cheaper to stay at home.

 

As to putting up with her...

 

:)

 

She's not always the easiest person to live with.

 

IMHO, if she could live in the dorms but chose to stay at home, you don't need to be as accommodating as if she had no choice. She made this decision knowing what your schedule looks like so she must have thought she could put up with the inconveniences of living at home while she's in college. She doesn't get to save money AND discombobulate everyone else.

[Jenn in FL]

It appears you have several distinct issues brewing here... all falling under the same general broad umbrella. Our daughters, (two undergrad and one grad) all live away, but occasionally pop in for a week-end visit.  In our home, common courtesy dictates a phone call is necessary just for the sake of exhibiting good manners and also to inform the parental units. :tongue_smilie:   The caller is merely notifying one or both of us of their plans and eliminating the possibility of people worrying needlessly.  The caller is not required to seek permission for staying out, HOWEVER, our house layout is such that awakening a light sleeper is not a factor and we do not have younger siblings at home.  In my book, either of the aforementioned variables is a game changer.  Around here, anyone attending school courtesy of "The BOMAD" (The Bank of Mom and Dad) is held to certain expectations and/or requirements.  

 

In the situation you described, waking up virtually the entire house just because one person chose to stay out late would not go over.  At all.  :closedeyes:

 

[Guest]

What colleges have quiet hours that prevent students from coming and going?

 

 

Quiet hours mean keep the noise to a minimum. Dont wake people up. Come and go as you please....without disturbing others with lights, noise, loud conversation, doors slamming, dropping possessions on desk or floor, voices, etc. It doesnt sound as if mom believes dd is capable of doing so as dd currently doesnt operate that way.

 

The phone call and parent permission giving on a case by case basis is way overboard. Set up house rules and let her deal with natural consequences. Text before bedtime if plans change and coming home after lights out. Decide on bad weather plans. Use standard date safety rules of going out with a group, etc. Its nice that she has learned the Golden Rule (he who has the gold makes the rules) That will help her learn the other version (treat others as you wish to be treated).

Edited July 18, 2016 by Heigh Ho