For martial artists: questions and concerns

[38carrots]

What are the qualities of a good, even outstanding, Sensei / dojo? What are the red flags?

 

Does it matter if a dojo is focused on one discipline, or several (like a "martial arts academy")?

 

The youth class description says that it won't be just Jiu-Jitsu (Japanese and Brazilian), but all the martial arts taught in the academy. They also say that it is more of a program, than a style, which means they introduce students to various techniques from other styles, making them a "well rounded martial artist."

 

My kids have done 2 years of Aikido and I'm considering exploring another dojos (which would be a different martial art, unfortunately). We don't have many choices here, and switching is hard, even if I'm becoming increasingly unhappy with their current Sensei.

[kiana]

I really don't like the "I've picked the best for you from everything". Sometimes it can work, but a lot of times what it's really doing is turning a kid into a dabbler and often it's a sign that the instructor is also a dabbler. 

 

I love Aikido but I've run into some teachers that I really wouldn't have wanted to train with. I think it's very important to pick the best teacher more than picking a specific art.

 

Red flags that would really have me running screaming for the hills would be if parents/kids are not allowed to watch classes first, if you're locked into a contract, or if they guarantee a certain rank in a certain time (especially black belt -- if they say that the kid takes their first test in 2 months that wouldn't be a huge red flag, but x years to black belt really makes it time put in rather than actual ability). 

 

So this wouldn't be an immediate "Oh HELL no" for me but it wouldn't be anywhere near my top of the list. 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I am not a fan of designer martial arts programs, so what you describe would not appeal to me. I'm a traditionalist when it comes to martial arts, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

 

I love Aikido, but you have to have a good school that's affiliated and a sensei with a clearly traceable lineage and pedigree. In my home town there was an Aikido school taught by an unaffiliated sensei who promoted himself to black belt in order to open a dojo. He had a lot of "special techniques" that he made up. These were serious red flags to me.

 

There was another thread recently where I listed the big red flags and I can reiterate the main ones here.

 

Watch out for schools that hand out black belts to young children. I would avoid any school that promotes anyone under age 15 to black belt.

 

In a similar vein, beware of McDojos that are focused on testing and promotions every x number of weeks or months and have a cost structure associated with the texting regimen. I have never paid for a test or promotion in any style, but there might be a fee associated for nationally recognized black belt in the American Judo and Jujitsu federation.

 

Watch out for senseis that demand respect but never show it to others. A good sensei will model good behavior.

 

You want a school that places responsibility on the student to be a good citizen both in and out of the dojo. This may be reflected in proper dojo and mat etiquette with doing bows or reis before and after engagement with partner, formal class, etc.

 

The dojo should be clean, safe, and free of any foul odors with plenty of room to accommodate class size and training exercises.

 

I hope that helps.

 

What is the Aikido sensei doing that concerns you?

[OneStepAtATime]

I am not a fan of designer martial arts programs, so what you describe would not appeal to me. I'm a traditionalist when it comes to martial arts, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

 

I love Aikido, but you have to have a good school that's affiliated and a sensei with a clearly traceable lineage and pedigree. In my home town there was an Aikido school taught by an unaffiliated sensei who promoted himself to black belt in order to open a dojo. He had a lot of "special techniques" that he made up. These were serious red flags to me.

 

There was another thread recently where I listed the big red flags and I can reiterate the main ones here.

 

Watch out for schools that hand out black belts to young children. I would avoid any school that promotes anyone under age 15 to black belt.

 

In a similar vein, beware of McDojos that are focused on testing and promotions every x number of weeks or months and have a cost structure associated with the texting regimen. I have never paid for a test or promotion in any style, but there might be a fee associated for nationally recognized black belt in the American Judo and Jujitsu federation.

 

Watch out for senseis that demand respect but never show it to others. A good sensei will model good behavior.

 

You want a school that places responsibility on the student to be a good citizen both in and out of the dojo. This may be reflected in proper dojo and mat etiquette with doing bows or reis before and after engagement with partner, formal class, etc.

 

The dojo should be clean, safe, and free of any foul odors with plenty of room to accommodate class size and training exercises.

 

I hope that helps.

 

What is the Aikido sensei doing that concerns you?

What she said.

 

DS started out with a great instructor.  He was thriving.  However, the owner of the place was the man's father and eventually the son was so unhappy/at odds with his dad that he left.  His dad took over running everything and was...awful.  He changed rules and techniques and expectations on a regular basis.  He would badger the kids.  He scheduled belt tests every few months and would charge quite a bit for the kids to participate.  Everything became about belt testing.  Kids were promised the ability to get to black belt within 3 years, regardless of age/ability when they started, if they signed a contract and paid thousands up front.  DS was miserable and after a couple of months of trying to push through we pulled him out.

[38carrots]

@TianXiaXueXiao: thank you. We do love Aikido and its philosophy, but we have only one dojo available to us, and it is only once a week (and I and the kids wish it were at least twice a week, or even 3 times). The dojo doesn't have any typical red flags that you mention. It seems the model of proper.

 

I started to dislike the Sensei because he is rather arrogant and boastful. He doesn't model humility. He talks about life lessons and values and most of the talks are really good, but some are a bit...strange...but maybe not important. Like he lectured them on nutrition, and his advice was way off. But that's minor.

 

With a number of little irritations the big one (for me, and please tell me if I'm overreacting) came when DS was 30 seconds late for the line up. All three kids of mine came 20 minutes before the class, changed, and started carrying the mats into the dojo area. Then they joined other kids running and playing in the dojo before the class, and DS ran to use the bathroom. He entered the dojo when the class was called to line up, and he attempted to run to his usual spot in the line (as he's seen others do in many previous instances in the past). Sensei told him he was late and needed to wait in the corner. I was mostly fine with that. It happened to be the day when Sensei decided to crack down on those who were late, and DS was late. Sure, the rules seemed to somewhat change, but it was all very reasonable.

 

However, Sensei then proceeded to lecture the class on being late, and told DS that he should not have spent so much time getting changed, and he should have been carrying the mats with his siblings and the other kids.

 

This to me felt very unfair, because obviously Sensei didn't notice that DS was present for carrying the mats. I think he should not have lectured DS infront of everyone for taking too much time for changing and stating that DS didn't participate in the mat carrying.

 

If it were any other activity, like dance, or gymnastics, I would've talked to the teacher. But I sometimes feel that martial arts is something almost mythical, and they live by their own rules and maybe this is how they instill some particular value that I'm not aware of. To me, the way this was handled, wasn't graceful. But maybe I'm missing something.

 

This said, I saw DS (11) fighting tears for most of the class, and I was proud of him for not crying (he cries easily). Then he got hurt in a technique and was about to start crying (I was watching his face) and his older sister told him to step out of the class, which he did.

 

Another concern that I have is that my kids tend to be hurt in class by careless partners. Younger kids who don't pay attention, and who are shorter than mine, will put mine in an awkward position, remain there for a long time, and then not do things right, and my kids have joint aches etc after classes. Normal?

 

And some older students throw way too hard, and mine get hurt, and this is not "noticed."

 

Is this typical "martial arts" thing? Something to just "suck it up"?

 

Or some classes they'll get a helper assigned, who is an orange belt (Adult) and who has no clue how to explain things, and they have to deal for an hour with him, in their small group. So is this on purpose for them to learn patience?

 

I'd love to hear that I'm overreacting! Seriously! Because we dont' have many options here, and I guess ours is decent, because in my gut feeling I also like "traditional", and they are doing Yoshinkan Aikido, and the dojo is run well (Except the arrogant Sensei lol).

 

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by 38carrots

[kiana]

Hurting other people is NOT OK. You are right to be concerned about this. In a kids class there need to be sufficient adults that safety is observed at all time. If there are too many to be effectively supervised, the class needs to be closed until more adult helpers are found. The older students throwing too hard is especially troublesome. If you do not want to change, I would absolutely discuss this with someone in the dojo. 

 

Yoshinkan is a good, solid style. It's not my style but I've trained with them and had a great time. I wouldn't be as concerned about the lecture because it seemed it was more of a one-off thing. But the pattern of lack of supervision is very troubling. 

[displace]

I don't have a ton of experience. We actually go to a place with some of the red flags listed (which upset me: contracts, belt testing price). But we stay because: DS looooooves it. The teachers are so funny, nice, and supportive, and run the class well. DS has fun. They have a great parents night out program once a month. We went to places before that were too much for DS. He needs a gentler karate place for now. The more competitive or serious ones would be a problem for us. The most I've heard the instructors say would be: should you be doing that now? We're late sometimes, and it's no biggie.

 

I think it matters what your DS thinks, explain about the sensei being judge and jury in front of class without even verifying what happened and how that's wrong. I would point it out to the sensei personally, and leave the place if it has happened more than once... If I had another place to go and DS agreed.

 

Our place also has helper teachers, all black belts. We have no injuries after except muscle pain. When I was a teen in aikido I would come home with bruises though, so maybe evaluate if the roughness is excessive.

 

Maybe look around. There are other karate types that may suit your family better. Belt advancement may range from memorizing new forms and may be similar to what they already know. Evaluate how serious a sport or love this is for the kids. If it's pretty important I would consider a reasonable commute to go to a better place if it suits the family schedule.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

@TianXiaXueXiao: thank you. We do love Aikido and its philosophy, but we have only one dojo available to us, and it is only once a week (and I and the kids wish it were at least twice a week, or even 3 times). The dojo doesn't have any typical red flags that you mention. It seems the model of proper.

 

I started to dislike the Sensei because he is rather arrogant and boastful. He doesn't model humility. He talks about life lessons and values and most of the talks are really good, but some are a bit...strange...but maybe not important. Like he lectured them on nutrition, and his advice was way off. But that's minor.

 

With a number of little irritations the big one (for me, and please tell me if I'm overreacting) came when DS was 30 seconds late for the line up. All three kids of mine came 20 minutes before the class, changed, and started carrying the mats into the dojo area. Then they joined other kids running and playing in the dojo before the class, and DS ran to use the bathroom. He entered the dojo when the class was called to line up, and he attempted to run to his usual spot in the line (as he's seen others do in many previous instances in the past). Sensei told him he was late and needed to wait in the corner. I was mostly fine with that. It happened to be the day when Sensei decided to crack down on those who were late, and DS was late. Sure, the rules seemed to somewhat change, but it was all very reasonable.

 

However, Sensei then proceeded to lecture the class on being late, and told DS that he should not have spent so much time getting changed, and he should have been carrying the mats with his siblings and the other kids.

 

This to me felt very unfair, because obviously Sensei didn't notice that DS was present for carrying the mats. I think he should not have lectured DS infront of everyone for taking too much time for changing and stating that DS didn't participate in the mat carrying.

 

If it were any other activity, like dance, or gymnastics, I would've talked to the teacher. But I sometimes feel that martial arts is something almost mythical, and they live by their own rules and maybe this is how they instill some particular value that I'm not aware of. To me, the way this was handled, wasn't graceful. But maybe I'm missing something.

 

This said, I saw DS (11) fighting tears for most of the class, and I was proud of him for not crying (he cries easily). Then he got hurt in a technique and was about to start crying (I was watching his face) and his older sister told him to step out of the class, which he did.

 

Another concern that I have is that my kids tend to be hurt in class by careless partners. Younger kids who don't pay attention, and who are shorter than mine, will put mine in an awkward position, remain there for a long time, and then not do things right, and my kids have joint aches etc after classes. Normal?

 

And some older students throw way too hard, and mine get hurt, and this is not "noticed."

 

Is this typical "martial arts" thing? Something to just "suck it up"?

 

Or some classes they'll get a helper assigned, who is an orange belt (Adult) and who has no clue how to explain things, and they have to deal for an hour with him, in their small group. So is this on purpose for them to learn patience?

 

I'd love to hear that I'm overreacting! Seriously! Because we dont' have many options here, and I guess ours is decent, because in my gut feeling I also like "traditional", and they are doing Yoshinkan Aikido, and the dojo is run well (Except the arrogant Sensei lol).

 

I agree with you that once a week is not enough. How long is the class? If it's 3 hours long then I guess it would do but it's still not optimal.

 

An arrogant martial arts teacher is not acceptable. A martial arts teacher (any teacher) that will publicly shame a student is not acceptable. It is fine to publicly enforce mat rules/etiquette and consequences but not to call the student out for the other things you mentioned.

 

That wouldn't sit right with me, at all.

[38carrots]

Hurting other people is NOT OK. You are right to be concerned about this. In a kids class there need to be sufficient adults that safety is observed at all time. If there are too many to be effectively supervised, the class needs to be closed until more adult helpers are found. The older students throwing too hard is especially troublesome. If you do not want to change, I would absolutely discuss this with someone in the dojo. 

 

Yoshinkan is a good, solid style. It's not my style but I've trained with them and had a great time. I wouldn't be as concerned about the lecture because it seemed it was more of a one-off thing. But the pattern of lack of supervision is very troubling. 

 

They have plenty of adults. Plenty. 6-8 adult black belts and two junior black belts for about 15-20 kids. But then my 5'6" teen DD is paired with tiny 7-8 year old for the entire class (not always, sometimes they rotate), and you can imagine in what positions she needs to stay while trying to balance when the techniques are done on her, especially they used the hand under chin thing. When she tried the adult class (she was welcome to) she was thrown so hard by black belts that she didn't get herself in the proper position for the breakfall and hurt her back. I think objectively speaking, maybe she was not trown *that* hard, but her being an orange belt then, she simply didn't have enough skill to fall safely when there was more speed added. I noticed how careful *she* is with lower belts, especially when they are smaller / younger. I think everyone should be more careful, but I'm not sure how this can be enforced.

 

I don't think they are hurt on purpose. It is just being careless or unintentionally too forcefull, or maybe mine (green belts now) are still not good enough to execute a good breakfall.

 

As far as I understand, we have one official Sensei who leads the class. When he is not there (rarely, another black belt leads the class.) I think the only person to discuss things with is the Sensei, and he is former military and is a touch intimidating.

[38carrots]

I agree with you that once a week is not enough. How long is the class? If it's 3 hours long then I guess it would do but it's still not optimal.

 

An arrogant martial arts teacher is not acceptable. A martial arts teacher (any teacher) that will publicly shame a student is not acceptable. It is fine to publicly enforce mat rules/etiquette and consequences but not to call the student out for the other things you mentioned.

 

That wouldn't sit right with me, at all.

 

It is 1h 15 min. The Sensei commutes to this location for almost 2 h, which I admire. The adults have two classes a week, but the kids only once. We are welcome to commute to the other location for free, but it is 1.5h one way for us. We've done the trips 4-5 times in the last 2 years, but more than that doesn't really work.

[kiana]

I don't think they are hurt on purpose. It is just being careless or unintentionally too forcefull, or maybe mine (green belts now) are still not good enough to execute a good breakfall.

 

This is not enough. Not throwing a partner harder than they can safely receive is part of practice. If it is part of the dojo culture that they throw as hard as they can and it's up to uke to take the fall, I would get out of it. 

 

And this is something that is absolutely appropriate for a whole-dojo lecture. 

 

I train all over the place with different styles and no matter what the level of my partner is, I throw gently at first and gradually ramp up the intensity. 

[38carrots]

This is not enough. Not throwing a partner harder than they can safely receive is part of practice. If it is part of the dojo culture that they throw as hard as they can and it's up to uke to take the fall, I would get out of it. 

 

And this is something that is absolutely appropriate for a whole-dojo lecture. 

 

I train all over the place with different styles and no matter what the level of my partner is, I throw gently at first and gradually ramp up the intensity. 

 

How would you approach this conversation with Sensei? Focus on this particular issue (and how?) Other issues as well? I don't want to burn bridges either. Considering the utter lack of options. Plenty of Taekwondo here, but DH is really against our kids doing it and find it "rougher" in general.

 

[happypamama]

Kids getting hurt often is NOT okay!! Sometimes my DD will complain of being sore because she works with big, strong kids like herself, and sometimes it's a hard workout. And occasionally accidents happen -- a kick goes awry or something -- but in two years of three kids going weekly or twice a week, none of them have gotten actually injured badly. Their instructor is very careful and supervises well.

 

We don't do a mixed program, so I can't comment on that. At our school, you have to be fifteen for adult black belt. DD flew through the early belts because she started at twelve and will take three to four years total for black. I see how her skills have progressed, so the timeline makes sense to me. Kids can earn a kid black belt younger but are not full black belts until they're older. Our instructor does make occasional adjustments but has a clearly defined curriculum with specific skills for each level.

 

Ours has a high emphasis on respect and carrying that over to the rest of life. Academics and home stuff always come first, before martial arts, and our school will back parents up on that.

 

We have helpers, not always black belts, but close. All of the helpers and assistant instructors have been excellent. Nobody yells. Nobody is mean. Strict, yes, but never mean. Kids might have to do push-ups if they're screwing around too much, but the atmosphere is one that makes

everyone want to give their best.

 

I'm on mobile, so I can't see your sig, but if you have a girl, you should see if she's respected. Our instructor finds a good balance -- teen girls work with teen boys as well as other girls and are expected to be comfortable with close contact, but a couple of times, DD has reported that they asked if she was okay with something, like

choke holds, which she and I appreciate. (She needs those skills, possibly more than the boys, but she doesn't have to learn them all at fourteen if she's uncomfortable.

 

I'm okay with a contract after a trial period because the instructor has to pay bills too and needs to keep his classes full. We had a month trial and then a three month contract and then a year one. I was totally fine with that. Also, we can observe class easily, and our instructor is happy to talk with parents or students about any concerns, any time.

[happypamama]

Oh, and fwiw, I drive forty minutes each way for class, passing easily a dozen or more other MA schools, and it's completely worth it. When I asked around, everyone suggested the same place, and that recommendation was a big thing.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Is there a judo club near you? If not, I would look into Dan Zan Ryu jujitsu to see if you have a dojo near by. DZR is different than Aikido but it wouldn't be too drastic of a change. You could also look into Shotokan Karate. There has to be something other than TKD.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

How would you approach this conversation with Sensei? Focus on this particular issue (and how?) Other issues as well? I don't want to burn bridges either. Considering the utter lack of options. Plenty of Taekwondo here, but DH is really against our kids doing it and find it "rougher" in general.

 

Most dojos have policies in place for maintaining safety. Traditionally any injury experienced by the lesser ranked student is the responsibility of the higher rank, particularly if the partner or uke is a black belt. If your child is sustaining injuries while working with a higher ranked uke, then the sensei should address control with the students to avoid such injuries. I would ask him about his policies and when and how they are enforced when I mention my child's injury.

 

In DZR, any injury or pain is brought to the instructor's attention immediately. The instructor will then use it as a teaching moment and demonstrate how to do the technique with control. Also, all black belts in DZR must learn restorative massage, a skill that is used to help injured students, so it is quite common to see sensei apply icy hot or tiger balm and massage the affected area right there in class. I'm not sure if Aikido has the same tradition, but it's worth asking.

[klmama]

My black belt dc was injured more in a few months of trying jiu jitsu at a new school than in the many previous years of taekwondo with a different instructor, even though dc regularly spars adults in taekwondo and MMA classes.  I'm not sure why your dh thinks taekwondo is "rougher," but that's not been our experience.  Speak to the instructor, but be prepared to look for something else.

[kiana]

How would you approach this conversation with Sensei? Focus on this particular issue (and how?) Other issues as well? I don't want to burn bridges either. Considering the utter lack of options. Plenty of Taekwondo here, but DH is really against our kids doing it and find it "rougher" in general.

 

I was out of town and I missed this. I'd focus on the issue that's the biggest problem for you, which in my mind is the injuries.