Driving while Poor/Black, Broken Windows Policing and Philandro Castile

[raptor_dad]

I've only scanned the gun rights thread but it is completely off the rails...

 

We have friends in Falcon Heights(less than 1/4 mi from the shooting). It is a middle class suburb by UMN with lots of young professionals and junior faculty. Its schools are uniformly good versus the crap shoot of excellent and mediocre schools in St Paul or Minneapolis. I've driven that section of Larpenteur down through Lauderdale, past the Ag School, past the State Fair, and into Falcon Heights. From 2007 until ~2011(after that I had my current '06 prius), I was driving my '94 Camry and got aggressively followed by the cops, *every* single time. Like Castile, I had a 4yo in the car with me. I never got pulled. Maybe because, I was white... maybe because I didn't have previous infractions... in that same car I've been pulled for a busted tail light several times because of it had a legal broken tail light patched with tape.... This was just harassment of folks who appeared poor in an mildly affluent suburb.

 

The whole problem with this broken windows approach to policing is that the cops label poor and/or brown folks as other and use that as an extra legal excuse to go fishing for violations. Once that happens further escalations are almost guaranteed. Comparing Philandro Castile to Sterling or Jamar Clark misses the point. There is no ambiguity here. He was murdered for being black...just like Trayvon Martin or Amidu Diallo... you could take Sprinsteens "41 Shots", https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQMqWAiWPMs , and alter the lyrics slightly and it would be apropos.

 

 

 

Is it a gun (is it a gun), is it a knife (is it a knife)
Is it a wallet (is it a wallet), this is your life (this is your life)
It ain't no secret (it ain't no secret)
It ain't no secret (it ain't no secret)
No secret my friend
You can get killed just for living in your American skin

 

Thats from '99... same sh*t, different day. How many times do you see the white PTA at the victims school march for the victim, http://www.startribune.com/outpouring-of-grief-from-philando-castile-s-st-paul-school-community/385876581/. This is about as unambiguous as you get in terms of racial violence.

Edited July 7, 2016 by raptor_dad

[Lb20inblue]

It gets better by us voting in local elections and speaking out about injustice.

 

Today has been a tough day.

 

Broken window policing is horrible because it terrorizes people that just want to live. It essentially criminalizes the working poor.

 

I also started reading the other tread but realized this is life for me, not a mental exercise. People are working very hard to miss the point.

 

I wish I was as eloquent as the writer below but I don't have it in me today.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahgiorgis/right-here-with-you?utm_term=.kwWzzVRxxg#.cw388R3JJ6

[catz]

I live approximately one mile from this shooting.  I already had to drive by the site of it twice today.  Which is full of memorial stuff and protestors.  It's visible from where my daughter takes dance 5X a week with many many children coming and going.  It's a safe and very nice area.  I was pulled over once in Falcon Heights and given a warning and a have a nice day.  That was actually about 15 years ago.  I literally make that drive in my white mom mini van or walk down larpentuer no less than 10-20 times a week and it's beyond horrifying and shocking to me that this happened so close to home.  We know kids who attend the school where he works (we're actually in St. Paul, bordering Falcon Heights).  There is a vigil at the school tonght but I cannot make it.  I just have no words at all. 

 

I hope beyond hope that our justice system breaks the mold and something comes of this.  Definitely broken hearted today for my community.  :crying:

[Veritaserum]

It gets better by us voting in local elections and speaking out about injustice.

 

Today has been a tough day.

 

Broken window policing is horrible because it terrorizes people that just want to live. It essentially criminalizes the working poor.

 

I also started reading the other tread but realized this is life for me, not a mental exercise. People are working very hard to miss the point.

 

I wish I was as eloquent as the writer below but I don't have it in me today.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahgiorgis/right-here-with-you?utm_term=.kwWzzVRxxg#.cw388R3JJ6

:grouphug:

 

The video of Reynolds speaking in front of the governor's mansion (linked within the above link) is truly heartbreaking. This has to stop.

[catz]

 

Thats from '99... same sh*t, different day. How many times do you see the white PTA at the victims school march for the victim, http://www.startribune.com/outpouring-of-grief-from-philando-castile-s-st-paul-school-community/385876581/. This is about as unambiguous as you get in terms of racial violence.

 

:crying: :crying: :crying: I just realized I know one of the people interviewed for this story and her kids. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Here you'd get pulled over because they don't allow broken up vehicles on the road.  Maybe that's less the case with someone from out of state just passing through, but here you have to have a yearly inspection and you can't pass with broken lights or windows.  Does that single out and discriminate?  Probably that is one result of that.  In a way it's good, but in a way it basically shuts many people out of being able to afford any sort of vehicle.

 

 

 

 

[raptor_dad]

Here you'd get pulled over because they don't allow broken up vehicles on the road. 

 

 

I dunno... In my case the same crappy old Camry I mentioned in my post had passed mandatory *yearly* inspections in North Carolina with colored tape over the tail lights. It had passed the initial registration inspection with no follow up in Washington state. It passed initial inspection in Kentucky and Minnesota.And then mysteriously failed to meet standards when I was in the affluemt outer suburbs. Also strangely, every time I was out of state I got hassled.

[Farrar]

I'm not even going in that gun thread.

 

Obviously there are overlaps with the gun issue, but this is about racism and bad policing.

 

Diamond Reynolds is incredibly brave and smart for how she handled it all. My heart just breaks for her.

[Ravin]

I think Diamond Reynolds handled it well, too. People that criticize her for not losing her stuff and freaking out overlook that many people can keep it together in a crisis situation, especially when they have a kid whose safety they must look out for. 

[Carol in Cal.]

"We put our hands in the air and we followed procedure."

 

I feel fury and sorrow.  Can't pick.

 

Praying.  Thank God she is a person of faith who has asked for and received prayers.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Arcadia]

I watched Diamond Reynolds live stream video on ABC7news in the morning. What I do not understand is why did she keep live streaming without doing anything to stop the gun wounds on the arm bleeding or even use his phone to call for paramedics while she continued live streaming. I can understand her videotaping as evidence but the news clip reminds me of someone being a camera hog despite the tragedy.

 

Also strangely, every time I was out of state I got hassled.

The traffic police dept. assume there is very little chance the person would be back to contest the ticket.

 

ETA:

We get mistaken as tourists very often even when in California.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Arcadia

[zoobie]

I'm not even going in that gun thread.

 

Obviously there are overlaps with the gun issue, but this is about racism and bad policing.

 

Diamond Reynolds is incredibly brave and smart for how she handled it all. My heart just breaks for her.

If you've seen the "racist response bingo card" on FB, you can hit bingo on that thread in several directions.

 

The DOJ investigation on the Ferguson, MO police department is another example of policing/ticketing/fining a population to the brink. It happens in so many places.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I dunno... In my case the same crappy old Camry I mentioned in my post had passed mandatory *yearly* inspections in North Carolina with colored tape over the tail lights. It had passed the initial registration inspection with no follow up in Washington state. It passed initial inspection in Kentucky and Minnesota.And then mysteriously failed to meet standards when I was in the affluemt outer suburbs. Also strangely, every time I was out of state I got hassled.

 

Huh

Well for sure here they don't allow it.  I had to change my wipers once (which weren't old).  That's how dang picky they are. 

Then again not all of the inspection places are so great.  Last one I went to I saw for myself that guy didn't do anything but the emissions which is the only thing he can't get away with fudging.  He was just being lazy and probably didn't think I'd notice. 

[catz]

I watched Diamond Reynolds live stream video on ABC7news in the morning. What I do not understand is why did she keep live streaming without doing anything to stop the gun wounds on the arm bleeding or even use his phone to call for paramedics while she continued live streaming. I can understand her videotaping as evidence but the news clip reminds me of someone being a camera hog despite the tragedy.

 

 

The traffic police assume there is very little chance the person would be back to contest the ticket.

 

I was under the impression the officer told her not to move and to keep her hands in the air.  She wasn't allowed to administer first aid. 

 

Having had a parent who collapsed and died very suddenly last year, I will say you don't know how you will react in a crises situation.  You do stuff you have to do that you never thought you could endure.  It's like watching from the outside.  I don't understand the criticisms directed toward her one bit.  She was under the eye of the police. 

 

[zoobie]

I watched Diamond Reynolds live stream video on ABC7news in the morning. What I do not understand is why did she keep live streaming without doing anything to stop the gun wounds on the arm bleeding or even use his phone to call for paramedics while she continued live streaming. I can understand her videotaping as evidence but the news clip reminds me of someone being a camera hog despite the tragedy.

 

The traffic police dept. assume there is very little chance the person would be back to contest the ticket.

 

ETA:

We get mistaken as tourists very often even when in California.

Because she was in shock? I've seen much more minor accidents where people weren't able to pull it together to help. I'm normally pretty good in a crisis situation, but if my SO got shot by police right next to me, I probably wouldn't be overly useful.

 

But most of all, I'd assume that she was afraid to move! He got shot following police orders, according to her witness statement. Moving toward him could've gotten her killed too.

[Arcadia]

I was under the impression the officer told her not to move and to keep her hands in the air.

She was panning her phone like a news reporter and her tone come off as childish whining in that clip to me. I am an Asian though, the demographic that is ignored other than for US Census count or for jury duty.

 

My late cousin died of heart attack while on an overseas work trip with no symptoms beforehand. He went for a morning jog on hotel grounds and collapsed.

[6packofun]

I watched Diamond Reynolds live stream video on ABC7news in the morning. What I do not understand is why did she keep live streaming without doing anything to stop the gun wounds on the arm bleeding or even use his phone to call for paramedics while she continued live streaming. I can understand her videotaping as evidence but the news clip reminds me of someone being a camera hog despite the tragedy.

 

 

 

I've only seen the video once, but it seemed to me that the officer was still nearby or right there and she probably wanted to keep her hands in view while still documenting the events.  She also had her daughter with her and maybe thinking he was shot in the arm didn't realize it was as bad as it was?  In this situation I am ALL, 100% about giving that woman the benefit of the doubt.

[Aelwydd]

What does hassled mean?

If you had a broken taillight here you would get a ticket, no matter what you looked like, or who passed your car on its inspection. The pd is enforcing everything. My ticket was for no turn signal....I had to stop my turn as a car zipped out in front of me from a parking lot and I wanted to avoid a collision. The indicator went off, so in the 30 seconds it didnt blink while I paused my turn, I earned my ticket. My younger teen refuses to drive, as his older sibling is pulled over so much.

 

 

Hassled? I don't know.  But when I was passing through Southlake, TX (very wealthy suburb in DFW Metroplex) a few years ago, and got pulled over for a headlight that was out, I was very careful to keep my hands on the wheel and to be respectful.  And I was a white woman being pulled over by a black police officer.  I've already counseled my 13 yo son (who is also white) NEVER to argue with a police officer, to move slowly to get his license when asked, and to be respectful.  I told him he can argue his case in court later, but NEVER while being cited.  He should assume the officer will shoot first and ask questions later.

 

The hell of it is that it appears Philandro did all the "right" things as well, and he's still dead.  Because he was black.  But that doesn't mean that if someone is white and financially comfortable and drive a newer model vehicle that he or she is "safe."  The continued militarization of our police forces assures the continued increase in such violence, which is seen in such racially motivated cases, as well as to become increasingly more violent towards peaceful protesters of all racial backgrounds.

 

I know that there are families here with members who are police officers.  I realize that they have a dangerous job and it's very stressful.  I also realize that many police do try to do the right thing.  But the thing is, I'm as afraid of the "bad" cops now as as I am of the bad guys.  And I can't even know the difference anymore.  At least if someone breaks into my house, or is stalking me, or whatever, I know THAT'S A BAD GUY and can react appropriately.  If a police officer makes a mistake and crashes down the front door, shoots my dog dead, or decides to pull me over in the dead of night, in some backwater road, I have no recourse.  If I resist, I get shot.  If I don't resist, I can still get shot.

 

That's a VERY shitty place to be in America right now, and I suspect it's part of the reason I keep hearing from WHITE people that you can't rely on the police and you need to arm yourself to protect yourself. 

[Starr]

Why did the girlfriend/non-driver and her daughter get taken to the police station ??

 

[Aelwydd]

The clip I saw indicates the officer believes he told the driver not to get it. The passenger says the driver did. So, the investigation will reveal the training for that case, and whether the officer followed his training.

 

I have instructed my teens to inform the officer of what they are doing, and do it slowly after he signals he understands and agrees. 'Sir, I am going to reach behind and get my wallet out of my pants pocket'.wait for the affirmation, then do it slowly. Same for registration. Hands on wheel when not reaching.

 

A stalker or someone breaking in is not automatically a bad guy. More likely mental illness in the first case and cash poor young person with no job, but that depends on your area. We have a duty to retreat in our state, so it never occurred to us to do anything more than videotape the entryway, photogrqph the footprints/tire tracks in the mud/snow, and turn the recordings over to the police.

 

A stalker or someone breaking in is automatically regarded as a threat in my book. When we had our house broken into when we were at home when I was 12, it was a terrifying event, especially as our neighbor's daughter had been sexually assaulted by the same criminals (they also broke into their house). We were living in a nice, small NC town in 1989.

 

I will leave the determination of any chemical dependencies, mental illness, or hard luck stories to the court-appointed psychiatrists.  In the heat of the moment, I'm not asking what SSRI he's on; I'm reaching for a baseball bat to defend myself or, if I'm able, fleeing out the door.  

 

As it turns out, a few years after that, the so-called "Blue Light Bandit" was pulling over women at night and assaulting many of them.  Women were vulnerable because they were afraid to not pull over, as they didn't know if the person behind them was an actual officer.

 

If I attempted to defend myself or to run away from a police officer that was off his rocker, I predict I'd be shot or maybe thrown head first into the ground like that 17 year old kid who got paralyzed for simply questioning an officer (he was white, BTW).

 

If you feel that police still deserve the benefit of the doubt, that's your call of course.  I lost faith in the police years ago.  So I believe Diamond when she says that the police officer requested his wallet, not the least because it's happened so many times now, it's almost a trope at this point.  White cop pulls black man over, white cop asks for ID, suddenly black man is dead on the ground.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Aelwydd

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I've only seen the video once, but it seemed to me that the officer was still nearby or right there and she probably wanted to keep her hands in view while still documenting the events.  She also had her daughter with her and maybe thinking he was shot in the arm didn't realize it was as bad as it was?  In this situation I am ALL, 100% about giving that woman the benefit of the doubt.

 

I think she didn't realize how bad it was and was also in shock.

[raptor_dad]

What does hassled mean?

If you had a broken taillight here you would get a ticket, no matter what you looked like, or who passed your car on its inspection. The pd is enforcing everything. 

 

Hassled. OK. For me...

 

I've done a lot of 1000+mile drives in my time. Often I was driving in a 50 state street legal Camry with red tape on one of the tail lights... other times I had a fully legal Saturn with a bent frame with a floppy trunk secured by a chain and carabiner, other times I had other sketchy but legal vehicles.

 

Now, I've done North Carolina or DC to Vermont round trip around a dozen times. For my itinerary it is always faster to go over to 81-84 vs up 95 thru NY. That said. I've been pulled for sketchy reasons 4 times on these trips, always around Fishkill NY. They always want to search the car. The first 2 times I just allowed it to get on the way. What can I say, I was young and compliant. After that I got more comfortable dealing with cops. Then we had the standard cop dialogue... "Can we search the car"... "No"... "Well you know we could search the car if we had probable cause"..."Which you don't".... "Well you know we could just arrest you and search the car whether you want us to or not".... "Not without probable cause"... "OK well stay here while I contact my Sargeant".... "You sure you don't want to change your mind"... "No"... "OK Your free to go".

 

Likewise, I've had 3 or 4 iterations of that at random late night road blocks in NC and VA.

 

Also, I've had 6 stops in the 100 mile Constitution free zone around the border, https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-governments-100-mile-border-zone-map. When I'm driving, I have no choice but to show ID. Otherwise, I refuse. If we are in MiL's new Volvo it is no issue. Otherwise the previous dialogue ensues... with additional comedic elements when the Australian accented border patrol agent asks my very southern accented self where I was born and I repsond "America, how 'bout you". Apparently the sub machine gun is supposed to impress me. This standoff has happened twice near the intersection of I89 and I91, I must be some southern exemplar of "I'm from Vermont, I'll do what I want:" It has also happened once on the OP in Washington. Noone seems impressed by my papers please references to Russia and Red China ; Anyway so another 3 times out of 6.

 

And... I'm white.  I have a few other stops like these. Black and Brown folks deal with this daily. My firm defenses of my right could result in me being dead if I weren't white. Just look at Sandra Bland. Imagine my border zone impertinence if I were muslim, I'd be in indefinite detention w/o a lawyer under some terror statute. Refusing to defer your rights to the cops shouldn't be an invitation to arbitrary execution or imprisonment.

 

PS. Notice I intentionally didn't mention arbitrarily enforced speed traps and such.

 

ETA: I've never gotten any sort of ticket, even a warning , on any of these stops.

Edited July 8, 2016 by raptor_dad

[Lang Syne Boardie]

She was panning her phone like a news reporter and her tone come off as childish whining in that clip to me.

 

I think to know exactly how she felt and why she acted as she did, we would have to also experience suddenly finding ourselves in a war zone and having our survival and the safety of our child forefront in our minds while watching our man die, while still being under the gun of the man who just shot him -- knowing that the only evidence the world may EVER see is what we are capturing right now.

 

If we haven't experienced that, then we are not very humane in armchair quarterbacking the biggest tragedy of this woman's life that we are privileged to view on video. Please see that. Please stop criticizing her, you are breaking everyone's heart.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Mergath]

She was panning her phone like a news reporter and her tone come off as childish whining in that clip to me. I am an Asian though, the demographic that is ignored other than for US Census count or for jury duty.

 

My late cousin died of heart attack while on an overseas work trip with no symptoms beforehand. He went for a morning jog on hotel grounds and collapsed.

Wtf? Are you high? You're making catty, snide remarks about someone who watched her boyfriend get murdered, and you're blathering on about being Asian and something to do with the census. Seriously, wtf?

[raptor_dad]

Wtf? Are you high? You're making catty, snide remarks about someone who watched her boyfriend get murdered, and you're blathering on about being Asian and something to do with the census. Seriously, wtf?

 

In fairness,  perhaps or perhaps not(not at all clear from that post) she is responding to the fact that Peter Liang  is the only cop to be convicted of shooting someone recently, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Akai_Gurley . I'll agree he was scapegoated compared to other NYC cops. However, the fact that the PD is racist and willing to throw asians under the bus is no reason to discredit other victims.

[GoVanGogh]

My DH has been pulled over many times in his life - most often for speeding, but most recently for a broken taillight. His vehicle had recently gone through state inspection and passed, but - taillight obviously burned up sometime between inspection and him being pulled over. Police officer never planned on even giving him a written warning, let alone a ticket. Most certainly not shot and killed. Police office said, "Hey, wanted to let you know your taillight is out. Have a nice day and get it fixed."

At one time, DH had warnings for speeding in six states between where we live and where family lives. Yet he has only recieved one speeding ticket in his life. (Just outside the apartment complex we lived in at the time. LOL) DH is white.

 

 

Thinking of the families of those affected by the latest shootings and wish them peace and understanding.

[imagine.more]

I used to nanny for a family in Falcon Heights, 1 block from the shooting. They have an adopted black son who is about 10 now. My heart is just broken for everyone involved. I had to have very difficult conversations with my own Black/Hispanic daughter tonight about race and injustice. 

 

That video was haunting. I could not get over how the cop kept the gun on both of them even as the man was dying, moaning and gasping for breath. How could the man have been a threat then? Why keep a gun trained on an innocent woman as her boyfriend dies beside her so she cannot do anything except stay still, recording the horror as she remains frozen and helpless in her seat?  I cannot understand standing there doing NOTHING while a man dies in front of you?!?!?! A tourniquet on his arm made from any dang thing around could have slowed the bleeding enough to give a good chance at saving his life. 

 

And that poor poor little child :(  Her new reality breaks my heart. 

[Arcadia]

In fairness, perhaps or perhaps not(not at all clear from that post) she is responding to the fact that Peter Liang is the only cop to be convicted of shooting someone

I wasn't being clear unintentionally. Most news on TV locally shows white cops on black victims (like Oscar Grant), or cops being killed. I am just saying that I am not responding whatever way because I am white or black. I feel that my local police tends to treat asians as transparent/invisible.

 

An updated ABCnews report said the police officer who fire the shots is a chinese but that has not been verified.

 

We had a broken headlight for a few days on our Corolla while in state. California Highway Patrol was nowhere in sight during those few days on our usual evening commute so maybe we were lucky. We have different bad experiences that is all.

 

Almost all the security guards at big stores and banks are black. I think stores just want to avoid a lawsuit in case anything happen. Maybe next time every patrol car will have a black cop as well just in case.

 

Anyway my perspective is that of someone who relocate 10 years ago to this country from a gun free nation.

[raptor_dad]

I wasn't being clear unintentionally. Most news on TV locally shows white cops on black victims (like Oscar Grant), or cops being killed. I am just saying that I am not responding whatever way because I am white or black. I feel that my local police tends to treat asians as transparent/invisible.

 

OK. Right on. I grew up in Greensboro NC so the asian minorities would be vietnamese, hmong, laotian, or cambodian. Likewise here in MN they would most likely be hmong, I wouldn't want blue collar hmong cops to be scapegoated for police violence like Asians in New York. I think blue on brown violence transcends these classes.

[Carol in Cal.]

I wasn't being clear unintentionally. Most news on TV locally shows white cops on black victims (like Oscar Grant), or cops being killed. I am just saying that I am not responding whatever way because I am white or black. I feel that my local police tends to treat asians as transparent/invisible.

 

An updated ABCnews report said the police officer who fire the shots is a chinese but that has not been verified.

 

The young man's girlfriend said the next day that the officer was Chinese.  That was her observation; he may have been Hmong or some other Asian ethnicity.  There is a pretty large Hmong community in the Twin Cities.

 

You're in Fremont, right?  I know that the Driving While Brown was a thing in Southern CA in the 1970s, and it included ridiculous transparently contrived stops of people of Filipino ancestry as well as Hispanics.  So some Asians, at least, were not transparent, but that's down south not around here.  

[Ravin]

I wasn't being clear unintentionally. Most news on TV locally shows white cops on black victims (like Oscar Grant), or cops being killed. I am just saying that I am not responding whatever way because I am white or black. I feel that my local police tends to treat asians as transparent/invisible.

 

An updated ABCnews report said the police officer who fire the shots is a chinese but that has not been verified.

 

We had a broken headlight for a few days on our Corolla while in state. California Highway Patrol was nowhere in sight during those few days on our usual evening commute so maybe we were lucky. We have different bad experiences that is all.

 

Almost all the security guards at big stores and banks are black. I think stores just want to avoid a lawsuit in case anything happen. Maybe next time every patrol car will have a black cop as well just in case.

 

Anyway my perspective is that of someone who relocate 10 years ago to this country from a gun free nation.

An officer being black or any other minority does not guarantee absence of bias.