S/O Brakes.... Driving in Mountains

[umsami]

In the What to do when your brakes fail thread, a lot of people were talking about downshifting and stuff going down hills.  As somebody who grew up in basically flat states, but occasionally drives through states with mountains, this is all new to me. 

 

So, if you're driving up hill in an automatic, do you shift into a different gear?  What about in a manual car?

 

 

Same question....but going down hill?  Normally I don't really shift going up hill, and if going down hill, I just use the brakes a bit to slow myself down....especially if approaching a curve.

[regentrude]

In  manual, you would down shift when you drive uphill to create more torque.

Going downhill for a longer slope, you would also down shift to use the motor brake and save your brakes.

 

In an automatic, the transmission will automatically downshift when you need more torque going up a hill. It will, however, not anticipate the slope and only start shifting when you're already on it, and will also not anticipate changes in slope.

Going downhill, the automatic usually does not shift down, and if it does, the motor braking action is not as efficient. You can shift down manually, and it brakes better than in Drive, but not as good as a manual.

Which is one of the deciding factors for us to keep driving stick shift.

Edited July 6, 2016 by regentrude

[marbel]

Going uphill, automatic transmission will shift for you.

 

Going downhill, you can/should shift to a lower gear to save the brakes. It depends on the car; my Suburban had drive, 3, 2, 1.  So, I would step it down as needed. 

 

Check your owner's manual for specific instructions/advice.

 

Some newer cars with automatic transmissions do downshift when doing downhill, as Regentrude said.  I haven't been in mountains enough yet with my CRV to see how well that works or to have the need to manually downshift, but I've noticed the automatic downshifting on a few small hills on my typical driving routes.

Edited July 6, 2016 by marbel

[Rachel]

I agree with regentrude.

 

If you are going down a steep incline, down-shifting will help keep you from going too fast. It saves the brakes and you feel more in control.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I use the brakes as needed.  Which yes that wears on the brakes, but that's a reason brakes need to be changed more often in an automatic. 

 

I don't think I've ever driven on a mountain.  At most I've driven on a hilly street, but that's not regularly.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Going uphill, automatic transmission will shift for you.

 

Going downhill, you can/should shift to a lower gear to save the brakes. It depends on the car; my Suburban had drive, 3, 2, 1.  So, I would step it down as needed. 

 

Check your owner's manual for specific instructions/advice.

 

Some newer cars with automatic transmissions do downshift when doing downhill, as Regentrude said.  I haven't been in mountains enough yet with my CRV to see how well that works or to have the need to manually downshift, but I've noticed the automatic downshifting on a few small hills on my typical driving routes.

 

Uh yeah I have never even tried this.  I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. 

[marbel]

Uh yeah I have never even tried this.  I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. 

 

After I completely burned out the brakes on my Suburban by driving in drive (and riding the brakes) down a very steep driveway once, I've learned.  It's not hard but you have to know how to best do it in the car you're driving. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

After I completely burned out the brakes on my Suburban by driving in drive (and riding the brakes) down a very steep driveway once, I've learned.  It's not hard but you have to know how to best do it in the car you're driving. 

 

 

I've never burned out my brakes at all once. 

 

I suppose if I had to drive on a lot of hills and mountains I'd bother to figure it out.

[gardenmom5]

In the What to do when your brakes fail thread, a lot of people were talking about downshifting and stuff going down hills.  As somebody who grew up in basically flat states, but occasionally drives through states with mountains, this is all new to me. 

 

So, if you're driving up hill in an automatic, do you shift into a different gear?  What about in a manual car?

 

 

Same question....but going down hill?  Normally I don't really shift going up hill, and if going down hill, I just use the brakes a bit to slow myself down....especially if approaching a curve.

I live in a hilly area and there are mts.

 

uphill in automatic: on a long, steeper hill, if the automatic doesn't downshift (you can tell because you start losing rpms and power), I downshift myself.

uphill in manual: always downshift. (and anything but a super short, shallow upgrade)

 

downshifting increases the rpms giving more power to the engine for an uphill grade.

 

steep hills in mts.  (and this is almost only on long descent grades), downshift to reduce speed.  on longer grades -we will pass runaway truck ramps.

 

one of the most famous downgrades we drive  every few years or so (and I drove myself - as opposed to dh driving - last summer.) is

eastern Oregon. because of how long the grade is, there are two runaway truck ramps.  the video is the view from a 13' truck going down.  it's 15 minutes. 

eta: cabbage hill is also known as deadman's pass. there are a number of warnings before you start the downhill.

 

eta: also with cruise control on a downgrade, it can reduce how much speed you will pick up.

Edited July 6, 2016 by gardenmom5

[MASHomeschooler]

What are the problems with engine braking? I often see signs at the top of mountains "No Engine Braking". When I lived in the mountains (as a teenager), I drove a manual and used a combination of engine braking and brakes. I don't remember seeing these signs. Now I drive an automatic and only drive on slopes when traveling, and I notice these signs, so it made me think there's a reason not to use engine braking. My guesses were increased emissions or increased likelihood of failure. These replies indicate that brakes are actually more likely to fail, so now I'm wondering.

[Carrie12345]

After I completely burned out the brakes on my Suburban by driving in drive (and riding the brakes) down a very steep driveway once, I've learned.  It's not hard but you have to know how to best do it in the car you're driving. 

 

 

Yeah, that sounds weird to me.  I've been driving mountains for 11 years now and have never had any big brake issues until about 100k miles on any of the cars.  I'm not sure how one trip down a driveway could be a problem by itself.

 

It did seem like we were replacing pads pretty frequently for a while, but that was when dh was putting truck driver type mileage on his vehicles.

[Ailaena]

What are the problems with engine braking? I often see signs at the top of mountains "No Engine Braking". When I lived in the mountains (as a teenager), I drove a manual and used a combination of engine braking and brakes. I don't remember seeing these signs. Now I drive an automatic and only drive on slopes when traveling, and I notice these signs, so it made me think there's a reason not to use engine braking. My guesses were increased emissions or increased likelihood of failure. These replies indicate that brakes are actually more likely to fail, so now I'm wondering.

 

I believe that is specific to big trucks who have to use a different braking technique to go down a steep grade. In the city there are signs like that because of the noise.

[MASHomeschooler]

I believe that is specific to big trucks who have to use a different braking technique to go down a steep grade. In the city there are signs like that because of the noise.

 

That makes sense. Thanks!

[hornblower]

yeah, engine braking signs are for big rigs & it's for noise. 

I drive stick & automatic both & I don't really care which. Every summer we drive over the North Cascades where we climb up for an hour, and then go down the other side & yeah there are run-away lanes for the big rigs.

Depending on car assignments I either get the stick or the manual for the drive. I think the automatic does just as good a job in terms of controlling the descent. 

[TrixieB]

one of the most famous downgrades we drive  every few years or so (and I drove myself - as opposed to dh driving - last summer.) is

eastern Oregon. because of how long the grade is, there are two runaway truck ramps.  the video is the view from a 13' truck going down.  it's 15 minutes. 

 

eta: cabbage hill is also known as deadman's pass. there are a number of warnings before you start the downhill.

 

 

Thanks for posting the video.  I have always enjoyed that stretch; it requires a bit more concentration than the rest of the long drive to visit family.

[Rachel]

What are the problems with engine braking? I often see signs at the top of mountains "No Engine Braking". When I lived in the mountains (as a teenager), I drove a manual and used a combination of engine braking and brakes. I don't remember seeing these signs. Now I drive an automatic and only drive on slopes when traveling, and I notice these signs, so it made me think there's a reason not to use engine braking. My guesses were increased emissions or increased likelihood of failure. These replies indicate that brakes are actually more likely to fail, so now I'm wondering.

It's referring to semis which make a specific, annoying noise. You will often see those signs near interstate exits.

[Rachel]

I use the brakes as needed. Which yes that wears on the brakes, but that's a reason brakes need to be changed more often in an automatic.

 

I don't think I've ever driven on a mountain. At most I've driven on a hilly street, but that's not regularly.

If you are driving mostly in a city you wouldn't need to worry about down shifting at all.

 

I learned when we were visiting TN, driving up to a cabin in the Smokey Mountains. My husband was surprised I had never learned about down shifting. I grew up in eastern South Dakota, it's super flat so I never had to worry about hills and definitely not mountains or curvy roads.

[regentrude]

What are the problems with engine braking? I often see signs at the top of mountains "No Engine Braking". 

 

That refers to trucks and is about noise.

[gardenmom5]

If you are driving mostly in a city you wouldn't need to worry about down shifting at all.

 

I learned when we were visiting TN, driving up to a cabin in the Smokey Mountains. My husband was surprised I had never learned about down shifting. I grew up in eastern South Dakota, it's super flat so I never had to worry about hills and definitely not mountains or curvy roads.

depends upon the city, and transmission type.  in seattle area, yes, we will occasionally need to downshift depending upon the street(hill) and traffic conditions.

 

 

regarding engine braking - it's generally specifically referring to big rigs with diesel engines.  it's a far trickier process for a diesel engine, and prone to skidding leading to a loss of control  (super bad combination on long steep grades) - and why there is usually a significantly reduced speed limit for trucks well before the start of those long steep grades.

 

and it's very very noisy (if' you've never heard a truck using engine brakes)

Edited July 6, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Guest]

That refers to trucks and is about noise.

Yeah, engine braking is actually good technique and very useful for safety in a larger vehicle, but it is noisy. In this state it's quite the opposite - on some stretches, like down into Skagway, they encourage engine braking to lower the heat generation of brakes and possible failure. Driving my Pontiac grand am down into that town I actually had to pull off on the side of the road because my brakes got so hot they were smoking and beginning to slide a bit too much. I didn't know about engine braking then!

 

I don't think I've seen anything in this state forbidding it no matter the vehicle size and many of us driving up and down the hillside in Anchorage use it for added control in the snow. But some states do have issues with the noise of the big rigs doing it. Gardenmom touched on the skid issue too which is rare but can be a problem. For your normal passenger vehicle and full sized van or small cargo truck it's very safe though.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[gardenmom5]

 . For your normal passenger vehicle and full sized van or small cargo truck it's very safe though.

 

passenger cars and small delivery trucks tend to be gasoline engines - not diesel.  diesel engines do not respond the same way as a gasoline engine.

[Guest]

That's true. We have done it in a diesel full sized truck with no issues but are also quite experienced with engine braking and were not loaded like a tanker. Driving rules tend to be different for truck drivers in general - their engines and brakes are just plain different than your standard automobiles, even the large ones. It's still recommended for many truckers around here depending on the road conditions though.

 

The combustion differences in the fuels are something that needs to be understood by a driver to know what is and isn't safe and in what conditions, but I'd give that caution for diesel in general. If you start up, drive, and stop a diesel like an unleaded you're bound for maintenance issues anyway :rofl:

Edited July 6, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Pawz4me]

What many 18 wheelers have is a Jake brake (aka a compression release engine brake).  You can hear one in

(wait until about 20-25 seconds in). That's the noise that the signs that say no engine braking are out to prevent. And it's totally different than simply downshifting so the engine assists in slowing a vehicle.

[frogger]

passenger cars and small delivery trucks tend to be gasoline engines - not diesel. diesel engines do not respond the same way as a gasoline engine.

I have a diesel Excursion and use engine braking all the time. Many pick ups and SUV's that people use to tow are diesel.

[frogger]

The only reason I can see skidding issues with tractor trailers is that when you are hauling a heavy load you want your trailer brakes being applied also. If your load is heavier than you than stopping your vehicle while your trailer keeps going can be exciting. That being said, I'm not an expert on tractor trailers. I do know how to tow with my own diesel though.

[gardenmom5]

I have a diesel Excursion and use engine braking all the time. Many pick ups and SUV's that people use to tow are diesel.

don't get mad at me because I'm *repeating* one reason *states* give for banning engine braking in places.  places like cabbage hill (have you ever driven it?).  

 

it's a 6% grade that's seven miles long. winding switchbacks and steep sides.  it's a mt. pass, and can be very treacherous in the winter.  we've driven that stretch in winter - including during a blizzard. 

 

I've actually seen trucks on the runaway truck ramps, and the very deep ruts runaway trucks make.  I've  seen smoking brakes because a driver didn't handle braking correctly going down that hill.

Edited July 7, 2016 by gardenmom5

[frogger]

Mad? I just stated that I have a diesel I tow with and specified that I use engine braking all the time because it's a fact. I'm not mad at you at all. I'm looking at my post and can't figure out why you think I'm mad. I live in Alaska and have driven the Al-Can highway many times. I'm pretty sure I've seen my fair share of steep grades but I also stated I'm not a trucker or expert but honestly I was only responding to the fact that smaller vehicles are often diesel.

[frogger]

NM

Edited July 7, 2016 by frogger

[gardenmom5]

here's a wiki page on engine braking - it will explain the difference between gasoline and diesel engine braking.

Edited July 7, 2016 by gardenmom5

[frogger]

Putting it in the proper gear according to your wiki article isn't technically engine braking  which was what this general thread was about. My bad. The transmission still slows you down in the same manner as a car.  Downshifting is not illegal as Pawz4me stated earlier. In fact the link you posted on cabbage hill specifically stated to please use the proper gear.  

 

I'm still not sure why you thought I was mad at you because I stated that I drive a diesel and that there are lots of little vehicles with diesel engines, even cars. You liked my next post so I'm confused but just to be clear. I'm not angry. This isn't really something I get passionate about. :)

Edited July 7, 2016 by frogger