Interactive Metronome

[lgliser]

Sophie has been going to OT for sensory issues.  She needs proprioceptive  stimulation.  (hopefully I used that word correctly....)  She needs heavy work... tight hugs, etc.  She's got ADHD and a temper.  She's also the sweetest spunkiest thing!

Anyway, the OT said we should start IM with her.  I went to the IM website and read a little about it and then I came here and searched and found a lot on here (yay)!  I haven't read it all but it's cool that it seems like something we could do at home too.  

 

I think I'm still not really clear on why this improves things though.  With Sophie, I'm hoping that it will really help her impulsivity and ability to focus/stay on task.   But how?  How does clapping a beat help with that?  And, BTW, she CAN clap a steady beat.  She actually has really good rhythm.  

 

My other questions are about my other daughter.  When I read about the apparent importance of being able to keep a steady beat, I wonder if Julia would benefit from IM.  She can't clap a beat to save her life.  She plays piano and dances but not feeling the rhythm holds her back.  Would one do IM just for that reason?  Or does it need to correlate with a learning issue?  

 

I have been so focused on Sophie and her issues, but I do wonder if Julia has some things that could be helped too.  Reading aloud comes to mind... 

Edited June 30, 2016 by lgliser

[PeterPan]

Some or all of your triplets have/had apraxia, right?  And have they had full neuropsych evals yet?  Wow, they're getting old!  3rd grade already!  Oh duh, that's how you got the ADHD label.  "temper" is kind of generic.  Did they diagnose a social delay as well?  IM is good stuff, so definitely do it.  My kids were at different points.  My dd could clap to a beat but not do anything complex to a beat.  IM was good for her.  My ds couldn't even clap to a beat.  His self-regulation was SO poor, he just went right into hyper-clap.  He has an ASD diagnosis as part of his mix, and I don't know how much that's the explanation, don't know.  So for him IM isn't in reach right now.  We had to start with hand over hand, could you just do ONE clap, that kind of thing.

 

It works because you're targeting the EF part of the brain.  It's good stuff, so definitely do it!  Yes, you can continue at home, either with the unit ($$) or with an app (free).  The unit gives feedback.  Some people blend.  I personally think the *attempt* is worth a lot, and if you're paying for it and can't make it happen for multiple kids that I would sort of triage that.  Like if the one is going to need hand over hand, start her at home with the app and then let her try the software later when her starting point is up a bit.  I like therapists for momentum, because I know it gets done, because it keeps me accountable.  So sorta use it that way and work out a plan.  You *can* do a lot at home, but if it doesn't get done then it would have been better to pay, lol.  

 

I think the app we use is pro metronome.  Just whatever is free.  Set it to 54 bpm and just see how they do.  Back up and simplify if that isn't in reach.  It's ok to be *off* if they're at least trying.  So yes it's the ADHD causing them the difficulty, and the range of difficulty is because of the spread in severity of the effect in the brain.  And that's ok, because they're unique!   :)

 

Back to the question of evals.  You mentioned temper.  You can use words like dysregulation, self-regulation, and then start to say ok, *why* is this happening...  Some kids with ADHD are going to benefit from some explicit social thinking instruction.  Are they on meds for the ADHD?  There are some brand new studies talking about the benefits of behavior modification before/in addition to meds.  So Social Thinking materials and some work on behavior modification could help with this behavior.  I would not assume one thing alone will solve it.  The social thinking and behavior modification can raise her awareness, her noticing, her perpsective taking, her ability to be explicit and intentional on how to make better choices.  It pairs well with the OT, which is trying to slow her down and teach her what those better choices are.  They flow together.  So I think at this point it would be something to consider adding to the mix.  You could maybe even do it yourself using materials from Social Thinking.com etc.  Our behaviorist has AMAZING materials, and when I email her with something ds has done, she'll show up with a book on it and do a lesson.  The books are really good about getting into his head.  She'll get him moving, so he's kind of calm, and she lets him STAY moving during the lesson to keep him calm.  The books go through kids dealing with the scenario (teasing, being angry, etc.), and talk about what people were feeling and thinking.  Ds has really picked up on that, though sometimes he's better at applying it to someone else than himself, lol.  

Edited June 30, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Zones of Regulation

Five Point Scale

 

These are a couple things that can be good.  My ds is on the young side for them, so it helps *me* see ok this where he is, he's sliding over, how do I get this back to calm.  But a rising 3rd grader is very ready, yeah.

[lgliser]

 

 

Some or all of your triplets have/had apraxia, right?  And have they had full neuropsych evals yet?  Wow, they're getting old!  3rd grade already!  Oh duh, that's how you got the ADHD label.  "temper" is kind of generic.  Did they diagnose a social delay as well? 

Well just Sophie has had the full neuropsych eval.  (and they ARE getting old!  Going into 4th grade.  SNIFF)!  I suppose temper isn't an official diagnosis. LOL.  But I did forget to say that her fluid reasoning is poor.  She is not on meds - we were eager to try other things first.  So it sounds like this IM may be a good option.  

 

She doesn't start until late Aug.  So I'd love to get started on something on our own.  I downloaded pro metronome.  Do we literally just start with practicing clapping to the beat?  Sophie (the one with a diagnosis) will do fine with it.  Julia (no diagnosis) will not be able to!  

 

Thanks for all of the info.  I'm going to look into this more!  

[warriormom]

I bought brain beats which is an IM product. It was $250, and I am sure it does not do as much as IM...but for me it was worth the gamble. Just another option. You can have up to 5 people on it so you may split it with a neighbor or use it with the whole family.

 

 

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[nature girl]

I bought brain beats which is an IM product. It was $250, and I am sure it does not do as much as IM...but for me it was worth the gamble. Just another option. You can have up to 5 people on it so you may split it with a neighbor or use it with the whole family.

 

 

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I'd looked at BrainBeats awhile back, and it looked quite similar to IM Home (but maybe more fun.) Have you found it helping at all? For something that's supposed to be done 3 times a week, it would be so much easier to have a home system (although if there were scheduled appointments with an OT it would probably be more likely to get done.)

[PeterPan]

Does Brain Beats use headphones and give feedback?  Clapbox is an inexpensive app that gives a sort of echo feedback.  It's not as good, I agree.  I just found, at least with my kids, that the *effort* seems to make a lot of difference.  Beyond that, I think what makes it effective/magical is what the therapist brings to the table with their knowledge of how to apply it to target parts of the brain.  So you could spend the $250 and maybe accomplish a little or a lot, depending on what you are doing with it.

 

Heathermomster has posted her homework exercises her on the board, so google site search for those.  

 

Whatever you do, I would aim for daily or 5-7 times a week.  Therapy is all about consistency.  When they say three days a week, they're trying to make it sound easy so people aren't intimidated.  Or are they doing like 45 minute sessions for those 3Xweek?  It's very interesting.  And does BB come with recommended activities?  It there sort of a transition going where therapists are recommending you use it at home instead of the more expensive home unit?  I guess my stickler is wondering why it's not just an app, plug in the headphones, done.  

 

Try with the free metronome app, see how it goes, see if the dc *can* clap.  

[Innisfree]

I don't want to derail the thread, but does anyone know if IM helps with *sustained* attention?

 

Dd11 does pretty well focusing attention over a short time, but has problems over longer periods. She has no particular problems clapping with a basic metronome, but I'm not sure how she would manage with more complicated rhythms.

[PeterPan]

Well for my dd we got bumps in working memory, motor planning, ability to hold thoughts and get them on screen/paper, etc. lots of EF stuff.  We were intentionally using it to target those things by bringing in distractions plus the motor planning plus digit spans.  Sometimes I would just talk with her while we did it.  I was trying to get her to be able to think, get her language out, AND motor plan AND tolerate distractions. For us the metronome was the distraction, talking was getting the language out, thinking was responding to my conversation, and the motor planning was the movements (combinations of clapping, ball bounces, etc.).  And it was DRAMATIC the improvements we got in her ability to do those things in a functional way together for writing and typing and getting thoughts onto screen.  I'm sure you could think up other combinations that allow you to target the underlying skill deficits for weak areas.  It's just I would think of it as a vague thing.  I'd be very precise and therapeutic about what you're trying to make happen, so you know it's happening and aren't disappointed.

 

Honestly, for sustained attention I would just get the meds and be done with it.  I was just reading this article  http://www.beaconbroadside.com/broadside/2008/08/michael-phelps.html

and was fascinated by the book it mentions (Teaching the Restless).  I just think at some point you get the meds and get over the blameshifting.  To me it's this subtle blameshifting of "if you would try harder you wouldn't be so ADHD".  Like fine, so Michael Phelps could swim 6-8 hours a day and get enough dopamine increase to make his ADHD livable.  My ds is like that.  He can do, no joke, 6 hours of HARD physical activity and not even blink an eye.  And it's true he's more calm and easy to work with!  But is what it takes for some kids REALISTIC??  For my dd, that's not realistic.  She's low tone, has some mild praxis, and she fatigues with that kind of physical exertion, always has.  

 

In my experience, working on sustained attention is just sustained torture.  It takes SO much energy that it's incredibly fatiguing.  It's not worth it and is needlessly fatiguing.  Now I'm saying that, and I'm talking about a kid who already has skills for basic things.  She sat in church quietly as a child, that kind of thing.  I'm not talking about meds just to be appropriate for 15 minutes.  I'm talking about class and things that are really not native to ADHD kids.  Even some of the stuff she really wants to do, things in preferred areas, she can't do.  Like when the article says Michael Phelps could kick in when it was preferred, well sorry charlie, not with ADHD-inattentive.  Even when she WANTS to she struggles.  And it was making her not her best self, and no amount of trying harder to stay focused longer was going to change that.

Edited July 1, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[warriormom]

My child is on medication, and it is not enough. Brain Beats comes with headphones, button that attaches to a glove and system attachment. They have a 60-day money back guarantee. We are on day 3 of 14. It is too soon to tell a difference.

 

After this, I may try the at-home neurofeedback. My child has double deficit dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, adhd combined type, speech language issues and hypotonia. We need to try and keep trying as all of you.

 

 

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Edited July 1, 2016 by warriormom

[Innisfree]

Medication would be great, but I've held back on trying to get attention increased that way because we're already using some pretty heavy-duty meds for basic emotional control. I'm just unwilling to add one more thing into the cocktail if it isn't really needed, kwim? And she can focus for fifteen minutes or so. Sitting quietly when needed isn't really an issue, always assuming emotions aren't engaged.

 

So the idea of a way to stretch focus and maybe self-control, without adding more medications, becomes appealing. Plus the Brain Beats games look like maybe she'd do them willingly, which would be a huge plus.

 

If there was a general improvement in executive function, including emotional regulation, that would be really very worthwhile.

 

Actually, OP, I read your description of Sophie and thought it sounded very much like my dd. There's the sensory-seeking love of strong hugs, and the general spunkiness, and the temper. We have all that. :-)

[nature girl]

Actually, OP, I read your description of Sophie and thought it sounded very much like my dd. There's the sensory-seeking love of strong hugs, and the general spunkiness, and the temper. We have all that. :-)

 

That's my Anna too...She's completely awesome, makes me laugh my tail off and want to tear out my hair at the very same time.

 

I'm so tempted to try Brain Beats, because it does look like something she might be willing to do. But I'm so hesitant to plunk down that money without hearing firsthand experience. The only reviews I've found online are from bloggers who've been given the system to review. But if IM works then it SHOULD work just as well, since it's using the very same principles.

[Tiramisu]

We did a full course of IM, 15 sessions with testing before and after.

 

DD does not have ADHD but she really seems like she does. The np is calling it an EF problem because she did well on a computerized attention test during her eval, even though the visual attention piece was "impaired." Meanwhile, her sustained attention during OT testing was "severely deficient", which was also on a computer. Still, the np won't call it ADHD but says even this is indicative of an EF problem; otherwise there wouldn't be such extreme fluctuations. She can sustain attention when it's something high interest in real life, and that's it.

 

She could clap without any problem. Her big issues were sustained attention and bilateral coordination.

 

She responded very well to IM from the beginning and the OT kept increasing the complexity of her tasks, like having her play games like Scattergories while doing IM. Usually, I sat in the waiting room but when the OT brought me in to see her progress it was mind blowing. The OT really pushed that kind of divided attention with her, which is EF.

 

I saw great results at home. She became more independent with school work after IM and her work got done everyday. But by far, the most noticeable effect was in her everyday self control. She had a temper and had already stopped having meltdowns with AD treatment, but she would still be very argumentative. With IM, she began to catch herself and stop, and within minutes, she would come to apologize and give dh and I a hug without prompting. I always knew she had really good heart and it would hurt me when people judged her, but IM proved it wasn't a character flaw. She just really had little self control.

 

Thinking about this more, I wonder if her perseverative behavior has also improved. For example, if she wanted something, she would ask again and again, and no response would help. Sometimes we would have to leave the room or even the house to get away from it. Now that t I think about it, that kind of thing doesn't happen to the same degree as it used to.

 

I love IM and wish I could get my younger dc to do it.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Tiramisu

[Dmmetler]

I've posted this before, but clapping to a steady beat is actually a pretty advanced skill. If your child can't do that yet, back off and try something else. The sequence orff teachers use is

 

Running to a pretty fast beat (easier than walking for most children)

Walking to a steady beat

Stepping in place to a steady beat

Patting on lap, hands together

Patting on lap, hands alternating

Clapping

Combination patterns of the above

Complex motions (things like bouncing or tossing/catching a ball/beanbag)

 

Rhythm instruments can be used where appropriate-shakers, drums, etc can come in along with hand motions, rhythm sticks match to clapping. Playing an instrument with hands doing different things (piano, violin, etc) is definitely a complex skill.

 

If you can find a music therapist, they can work on a lot of these skills and give at home activities, and for many kids, music therapy is fun and is self-motivating.

[Innisfree]

We did a full course of IM, 15 sessions with testing before and after.

 

DD does not have ADHD but she really seems like she does. The np is calling it an EF problem because she did well on a computerized attention test during her eval, even though the visual attention piece was "impaired." Meanwhile, her sustained attention during OT testing was "severely deficient", which was also on a computer. Still, the np won't call it ADHD but says even this is indicative of an EF problem; otherwise there wouldn't be such extreme fluctuations. She can sustain attention when it's something high interest in real life, and that's it.

 

She could clap without any problem. Her big issues were sustained attention and bilateral coordination.

 

She responded very well to IM from the beginning and the OT kept increasing the complexity of her tasks, like having her play games like Scattergories while doing IM. Usually, I sat in the waiting room but when the OT brought me in to see her progress it was mind blowing. The OT really pushed that kind of divided attention with her, which is EF.

 

I saw great results at home. She became more independent with school work after IM and her work got done everyday. But by far, the most noticeable effect was in her everyday self control. She had a temper and had already stopped having meltdowns with AD treatment, but she would still be very argumentative. With IM, she began to catch herself and stop, and within minutes, she would come to apologize and give dh and I a hug without prompting. I always knew she had really good heart and it would hurt me when people judged her, but IM proved it wasn't a character flaw. She just really had little self control.

 

Thinking about this more, I wonder if her perseverative behavior has also improved. For example, if she wanted something, she would ask again and again, and no response would help. Sometimes we would have to leave the room or even the house to get away from it. Now that t I think about it, that kind of thing doesn't happen to the same degree as it used to.

 

I love IM and wish I could get my younger dc to do it.

Yes! These are the sorts of results I'd like to see, especially the control of emotional reactions.

 

I'm tempted to give Brain Beats a try. It would cost about a third of what 15 sessions of IM with our OT would, if she even does IM. And we'd have it available for our older dd or for "tune-ups" later.

[PeterPan]

My child is on medication, and it is not enough. Brain Beats comes with headphones, button that attaches to a glove and system attachment. They have a 60-day money back guarantee. We are on day 3 of 14. It is too soon to tell a difference.

 

After this, I may try the at-home neurofeedback. My child has double deficit dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, adhd combined type, speech language issues and hypotonia. We need to try and keep trying as all of you.

 

 

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That's my ds' mix, though his overall praxis is mild.  And yes, there are these kids for whom it's not one thing.  You'd want to get feedback about doing the neurofeedback with the meds.  I forget which things, but some of them don't turn out to work as well when the dc is on the meds.  To me, I'd pull off the meds for the neurofeedback.  The brain isn't working as hard and really making the pathways if you're on the meds.  That would defeat the whole purpose.

 

My ds has had 31 (iirc) of the recommended 40 for the neurofeedback.  It's fine and gave us some progress.  Behavior modification/ABA/social thinking is helping immensely.

[Tiramisu]

Yes! These are the sorts of results I'd like to see, especially the control of emotional reactions.

 

I'm tempted to give Brain Beats a try. It would cost about a third of what 15 sessions of IM with our OT would, if she even does IM. And we'd have it available for our older dd or for "tune-ups" later.

If I hadn't found a place that offered IM in our insurance network, I may not have done it.

[PeterPan]

Yes! These are the sorts of results I'd like to see, especially the control of emotional reactions.

 

I'm tempted to give Brain Beats a try. It would cost about a third of what 15 sessions of IM with our OT would, if she even does IM. And we'd have it available for our older dd or for "tune-ups" later.

 

The benefit of the practitioner is going to be whatever targeting and exercises they do with her that are their own mix.  Also sometimes an OT will weave it in, alternating with other things, to keep it from being overwhelming.  You're likely to get more done and done more effectively with an experienced therapist than without, even on the same equipment.

Edited July 1, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Innisfree]

Hmmm. I see your point. It's just that OT is $$ even with insurance, and insurance only gives us 30 visits per year. It all adds up fast, and we just haven't seen much benefit.

 

Maybe I'll look into the free app.

[Tiramisu]

Hmmm. I see your point. It's just that OT is $$ even with insurance, and insurance only gives us 30 visits per year. It all adds up fast, and we just haven't seen much benefit.

 

Maybe I'll look into the free app.

 

The research I read on IM was based on 15 sessions. We did only IM with this kid. We were done in two months.

 

We had done OT before with that 30 visit limit for sensory stuff and it was a waste. The could have been the OT and it could have been the short time..

[nature girl]

The research I read on IM was based on 15 sessions. We did only IM with this kid. We were done in two months.

 

We had done OT before with that 30 visit limit for sensory stuff and it was a waste. The could have been the OT and it could have been the short time..

 

Do you think the OT did something magical with the IM that a parent wouldn't be able to do with a home program? (Our OT offered to do IM, but it only would have been 10 minutes a week...I was disappointed enough with our OT at that point that I just walked away from the practice.)

[Heathermomster]

When DS was working with OT, he completed IM in 6 weeks.  The OT set a goal and DS achieved it in a shorter period than most plus set some sort of IM score record for that office.  Having a kid clap to a beat of 54 BPM for 20 minutes daily and 5 days per week is a challenge.  

 

In the office, DS wore head phones as he clapped.  If he clapped too slow, a tone would ring in one ear.  If he clapped too fast, the other ear would detect a tone.  DS had to focus very carefully to discern whether to speed up or slow down.  OTs talked around him to provide a distraction.  DS also clapped, performed cross body moves, and bounced a ball at 54 BPM.  

 

Was IM worth the expense?  IDK.  Son's trumpet teacher immediately noted a difference with son's attention and called me after a lesson to say as much.  DS also worked with a ped PT for several sessions.  I feel like the combo of IM with the PT work helped tremendously.

[Tiramisu]

Do you think the OT did something magical with the IM that a parent wouldn't be able to do with a home program? (Our OT offered to do IM, but it only would have been 10 minutes a week...I was disappointed enough with our OT at that point that I just walked away from the practice.)

 

The things our OT did with IM were very complex and the IM device itself seems to pick up timing down to the millisecond, using arms and feet and the cross body moves. I don't know the equipment, but it seems hard to bring it up to that level at home. That doesn't mean what you do at home won't work really well.

 

I also think it wouldn't work if I had tried to do it with my kids, too many distractions at home, too many things to get in the way. I don't know how an hour would have got done each time.

 

Plus, there's the attitude thing. My dd who did IM would be embarrassed to not comply or to resist with a professional, especially one who was a charming, fun, encouraging woman who gave her a treat EVERYTIME she finished up. That relationship dynamic was something I couldn't have planned for but it was magical.

 

My dd does not make connections with people easily, but what happened with that OT brought out the best in her. This ornery kid became so cheerful and obliging over the course of IM that the staff there noticed and loved her. They even nominated to serve on one of their committees. I would not have believed something like that could happen to her with her usual disposition.

 

My younger dd, on the other hand, would feel be perfectly fine not complying. She wouldn't act up but she just silently resist. And she can't be bribed.... :glare:

[nature girl]

Anna is more like your younger DD, unfortunately. And she did NOT like the OT (who was much more harsh than she's used to, not nurturing), so compliance would have been a real factor there. Compliance would of course be a factor at home as well, unless she really enjoyed the program. (That's why I was hoping something like Brain Beat might work.) I wonder if combining a fun-ish program with some distractions might be enough to help her, I don't know.

 

I do think I'll need to wait another couple of years, whatever we decide. She just doesn't have the stick-to-it-iveness at this point.

[Tiramisu]

Anna is more like your younger DD, unfortunately. And she did NOT like the OT (who was much more harsh than she's used to, not nurturing), so compliance would have been a real factor there. Compliance would of course be a factor at home as well, unless she really enjoyed the program. (That's why I was hoping something like Brain Beat might work.) I wonder if combining a fun-ish program with some distractions might be enough to help her, I don't know.

 

I do think I'll need to wait another couple of years, whatever we decide. She just doesn't have the stick-to-it-iveness at this point.

 

I tend to think it's best to address things early, but we have to be realistic. I know a couple of people who spent from 1K to 5K for evals and they were as good as flushing money down the toilet because the kid didn't comply. That's the situation I was in with my dd for a few years, and I'm in the same one now with my youngest. But my youngest has really done well over the last year and I'm not feeling that evals or IM are absolutely necessary for her right now. I actually think I'd be best waiting for evals for her until the early teens when things will become clearer one way or another, unless something comes up in the meantime.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Tiramisu

[nature girl]

Yup, our eval was pretty pointless too, although I guess it did confirm the ADHD (which we already were 99% sure about, but whatever.) The neuropsych basically told us she wasn't able to complete the majority of the tests because she kept getting distracted by a pile of dinosaur toys and refused to stay in her seat...Well okay, then! Here we are $1,500 poorer and no more knowledgeable because they couldn't remove a box of toys from the room. (I'm being more snarky than they deserve, because I doubt she would have been willing to stay for long anyway, but they could at least have tried.)

[Tiramisu]

Well, I have a friend whose dc couldn't finish the testing due to being overwhelmed and not being able to stay focused, and they scored the tests anyway, as though he answered incorrectly. That ended up worse than if the evaluator just said, "We couldn't finish those tests."

[nature girl]

Well, I have a friend whose dc couldn't finish the testing due to being overwhelmed and not being able to stay focused, and they scored the tests anyway, as though he answered incorrectly. That ended up worse than if the evaluator just said, "We couldn't finish those tests."

 

Well that's awful, they should at least have said the scores didn't reflect his ability. With Anna they did actually score her on everything, but in the written report said, Well the results say she's low average in these areas, but it's because she didn't finish or wasn't paying attention, and we actually think she's above average. So I came out of it without any new information, but at least I wasn't panicking.

[warriormom]

4 days into brain beat and I can see how it improves focus and attention as well as rhythm. It is brain training in this area. It is not a magic bullet but a way to strengthen the brain.

 

 

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[PeterPan]

AM, Google compliance training.

[nature girl]

4 days into brain beat and I can see how it improves focus and attention as well as rhythm. It is brain training in this area. It is not a magic bullet but a way to strengthen the brain.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I hope you'll update us as he progresses!

 

 

AM, Google compliance training.

 

I just looked it up, and found it's somewhat similar to what I do naturally (although not as formal.) She's usually pretty compliant, actually, but this might be worth trying for areas that are more difficult.

[warriormom]

We have completed 9 sessions of brain beats and 5 more to go. I have to say it is a good program. It is complementary not a miracle. It is worth a shot though. I will give you a true complete review when she (LD and ADHD) has completed it. My son is also completing it (neurotypical). 

[Kat w]

A few months ago heathermomster gave me some things to do with IM. It was radically life changing over here. I bought boomwhackers that dmmetler recommended and some rythm sticks and some hand bells. We do this every morning to the metronome. Doing cross midline etc. For us? Life changing .

At bedtime? My DS 12 cannot go to sleep without the listening to the beats. It has received his nightime ticks ( which were extensive and very destructive )

 

Just dawned in me as I write this. He hasn't been sleeping good and has been back at some of the bedtime ticks....we are redoing the floors in their room and everything is packed up...no metronome. Duh! Why did I not think of that. Wow. Go figure.

 

Even our limited work with this ( nothing formal and at home only) I cannot believe the overall improvement for both boys , particularly the one with more challenges.

[displace]

I'm late to the party, but after seeing that brain beat demo it looks exactly like what we use in OT. Except there's no ability to have multiple sensors, I don't think. Still, you can make IM more complicated by doing sequences. Clap, tap a side, maybe tap other side, or do jumping jacks slowly. Do sequences while standing on one leg or a balance board. We haven't worked on sequences with other work, but maybe a chart of words, read, clap, read, tap side, etc.

 

As for results, as long as you make the challenges more difficult, there should be more and more progression. But that doesn't speak for IM results in general. For us, we've been doing IM 1-2 times per week, plus at home free app practice another 2 x per week for about 3 months. DS went from not being able to keep an IM beat at all, to having a good beat. Attention and EF or other results? IDK, but we don't have formal diagnoses of those. Dyspraxia? IDK. In general, reading and writing has improved a TON, but we're also doing vision therapy, so... ?

 

I'm thinking of getting it as OT for dyspraxia will decrease to max once per week when public school starts so we can change to a second OT just for writing the other day. I don't mind a free app for IM work, but there's really no feedback for DS, who has trouble understanding if he's early or late. So I have to supervise, which = conflict for us.

[Storygirl]

I always read the IM posts with interest, because DS12 has very low processing scores plus ADHD (and other things), so he has a mix of things that IM might help. But he has always been very good at keeping the beat and is, in fact, a drummer. Drumming is new for him since last fall -- he loves it and has been making quick progress. His band teacher has been impressed with him. We're working on getting a drum set for him, so that he can practice more at home (my poor ears will suffer, but it will be good for him).

 

Do you think IM will do something for him that drumming does not?

[displace]

I'm not certain. I'm wondering if all the benefits of music are partially reading music, rhythm, motor skills, thinking. I would think drumming does all that too.

 

Eta - when first starting IM I felt it was a basic version of music skills. Since our OT uses it for more physical activities for dyspraxia, I feel a little differently, as well as our piano teacher saying she doesn't use metronome for younger students.

Edited July 15, 2016 by displace

[Heathermomster]

IM has been researched several times.  For you ladies that have questions, look up the info and read about it.  Discern for yourselves whether IM is something that you would want to pursue.  The IM instructions that I posted were a scratch of the work that my DS performed with an OT.  We were sent to the OT after DS was prescreened by a VT.  Outside of some visual accommodations issues, DS did not need VT but did need OT.

[Kat w]

I agree heathermomster on the work done with an OT.

 

As I look back at the therapy my dd12 got starting at age 18 mo...they used this technique, I just didn't know at the time what it was ( oh back to the days of ignorant bliss lol) anyway, it was used into PS too. I talked to my boys spec ed teacher thwy had for 4 yrs ( we did 4 yrs of early intervention , they were held back a yr in that program) . she reminded me of all the work I saw him do with the headphones.

 

They had him doing computer programs at the same time, other things too. It was also used with our private OT.

I get what you're saying and OhE talks about too with the professionals.

Frankly, we are at our limit financially. We have great ins. And it's still expensive . I know I'm not telling you ladies anything new lol.

But, we have SO many issues and ddiagnoses here, times 2 boys, we are rapped out.

They have used all the services available through the PS system. When they hit 3rd and 4th grade, it became less and less. More in the classroom help, some they had separate classes to go to, and my boys qualified for EVERY spec ed class. They integrate them into the classroom at 3rd and 4th grade. That was no good. Imagine, background noise, fluorescent lights ,not being able to read directions and not all teachers at that grade level are too interested in additional help.

This, all with a GREAT PS system here and our districted school was the title 1 school. They got all the extra funds and kids came from all over the county to go there.

I say all this to say, we parents have to find other ways, creative ways if you will, to supplement at home . we have cut out all extra things from our budget except activities for kids and really, we've had to cut some of those.

 

It's just discouraging to constantly be shelling out money esp when, let's face it, not all therapist are the greatest in the world. So......we look for ways to weave in anyway we can at home to supplement.

This is what is great about this board. We can glean from other moms who have experience with other programs and techniques to implement at home.

 

I have been homeschooling for 18 urs. I think with the help of you kind ladies here, I can help the boys at home where I can.

I guess I'm jus very discouraged to always be reading...therapist therapist therapist . I have wasted hundreds and hundreds of dollars on therapists who hadn't seen cases like my boys and wasted my time and money " going to ask the more experienced therapist " what she should do.

 

End of slight rant lol :)

[4KookieKids]

nm 

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by 4kookiekids

[exercise_guru]

I just wanted to provide this information because it may be helpful to other parents. I am enjoying reading this thread I hope everyone will come back and post their results from metronome therapy. We are starting IM HOME in April. So I will try to update after we get going but here is our plan. IM is not available for us where I live but I was able to find a provider for IM HOMR near my mom's house. We are traveling to meet with an SLP to buy and train on IM home . The therapist is very experienced . As feedback regarding the program mentioned in the thread. She told me that beatbox (I think that is what its called) is made by Interactive metronome and uses "hands only" . She said it would be very cost effective place to start and well worth it for under 300 dollars because up to 5 kids can use it. Then if more mwas needed move on to IM home. I only have one child at home that needs IM so I elected to just go with IM home. I have to buy the equipment and sessions. It is around $900 for 30 hours of IM. Once I buy the equipment she can just add extra lessons etc remotely if needed.

 

We plan on doing 30 minutes 4 days a week until we finish. Even though she is out of state she will track us online and problem solve remotely through Skype or whatever. This option wasn't available nearby so I am grateful to have found her. We will do 3 sessions with her and then come home and keep going on our own.

 

I will report back .

Edited March 12, 2018 by exercise_guru

[exercise_guru]

Also for those of you who really do not want to medicate with a stimulant It might be worth reading about Intuniv. A mom in our old playgroup told me about it. Her son is very frustrating to work with and can't focus. She was very antistimulants because her son is underweight. Intuniv has been so good for him. He is able to focus, he is much happier and even tempered. No problems eating or sleeping. My son has CAPD and a lot of anxiety. According to the symptoms he doesn't quite have ADHD but I persuaded my pediatrician to let us try this because it helps with anxiety. I will see how it goes but thought I would pass along the info

Edited March 12, 2018 by exercise_guru

[4KookieKids]

Hey, although it's not as great as the full IM package, I did find this today on my iPhone:

 

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/measuring-metronome/id676748179?mt=8

 

It costs $1.99, but gives you immediate feedback regarding speed (though it says "too fast" when I'm actually too slow, I think, and vice versa), as well as telling you what you're off, on average. It's not "fun" for my kidlets, but I spent almost two hours searching for this once I realized that the android app linked by DyslexicParent several years ago isn't available via dropbox anymore. It seemed to me *someone* must have made something like this - and they have! :)

Edited March 12, 2018 by 4kookiekids

[Heathermomster]

Any metronome should work as long as it is set to 54 BPM.

[4KookieKids]

Any metronome should work as long as it is set to 54 BPM.

 

I know that for playing games and doing stuff together! But I liked the idea of finding one that would actually give you feedback, as in, you tap the screen to the beat and it tells you if you're "on" (within .05 seconds) or too fast or too slow. I thought this was a topic of conversation some years ago: finding an app that actually tells you how close you are, because the immediate feedback was valuable? Maybe I misunderstood. I read a whole lot of posts, I guess, so maybe nobody actually cares! lol. It doesn't have quite all the cool stuff mentioned in this post, but I thought it was at least *something*. :)

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/465774-interactive-metronome-app/

[exercise_guru]

I actually thought it was brilliant so thank you.  I had my daughter who plays the piano try it with great success. Unfortunately for my son cooperation and high interest rule the day more than the feedback. I am praying we can get through IM HOME  because of his "boredom" repetitive issues. I am always amazed at the level of brilliance on this board. So many parents finding new ways to problem solve and help their kids learn!

[4KookieKids]

I actually thought it was brilliant so thank you.  I had my daughter who plays the piano try it with great success. Unfortunately for my son cooperation and high interest rule the day more than the feedback. I am praying we can get through IM HOME  because of his "boredom" repetitive issues. I am always amazed at the level of brilliance on this board. So many parents finding new ways to problem solve and help their kids learn!

 

Thanks! I was pretty happy to find it! My dd6 does better with feedback from pretty much anyone or anything that's not me - so an app telling her she's off will go over better than me telling her she's off. She did get pretty bored with it pretty quickly, unfortunately. I think that tomorrow, I'll bribe her (for every minute she does it, she gets a piece of chocolate maybe?) so long as she's within a certain range (wide enough to be achievable if she's actually trying, but narrow enough that she can't just sit there tapping mindlessly). We'll see how it goes.

[PeterPan]

I'm confused. What was $300 and what was $900? I had talked with an OT about buying the IM stuff to do at home. Like you say, it was close to $1k. I downloaded a free metronome app, did my own hack stuff using Heathermomster's protocol and souping it up with my own ideas, and we got dramatic improvement at a price I could afford.

 

I'm sure the equipment is good, and for $300 I'd be there. At $900, ouch.

[exercise_guru]

I think the beatbox program is the one that is 300 and has 18 lessons. I always get the name wrong hopefully a parent will correct me if I am wrong. 

 

We have been looking into IM for two years. It is only offered at one location in our town and it is $4000 for like 20 lessons. Before I decided to do IM HOME ( the $900) one I tried several things. 

The challenge I have is cooperation with my son long enough to get enough intensity and frequency to make a difference. IM claims you need 10,000-20,000 repetitions. I just couldn't design and implement my own program. So next I had his guitar teacher add 15 minutes to lessons and work on the Djembe drum. Well his teacher and I were having fun but my son just can't figure out that he is hitting the beat with the metronome. I also tried the app mentioned above but like most kids with ADHD doing something long and tedious to make your mom happy just ain't going to happen. Also IM charges practitioners by the minute so their billing practace is sucky. 

[PeterPan]

Were there any OTs doing IM? That's $200 an hour, which seems wicked crazy high. You can't even do an hour of IM hardly, woof. 

 

My ds' starting point with metronome work was terribly low. I get what you're saying, but it might be that he's crunchy because of HIM, not you. With my ds, he couldn't even slow down and do a single clap. For real. Not even just clap one time. He went right to hyper clap. We had to start with hand over hand, let's clap. Then we went to a single clap with each letter I pointed at on the alphabet puzzle, that kind of thing.

 

So sometimes an OT will weave the IM in rather than doing it all at once. Like they'll do other things, go do 5 minutes of IM, go do some more, then 5 more minutes of IM, etc. 

 

So the software is limiting you for number of uses? My impression was the therapists were creating their own tasks. 

[exercise_guru]

I just remember touring a place and they told us that IM bills by the minute they use the software which I thought was pretty crappy. Here locally the IM provider is for vision therapy. We finished Vision Therapy and I fought and got my insurance to pay for it so I was ready to move on. My son needs this with a SLP because his hearing is the problem. His visual processing is fine now. 

 

I will definitely post some updates once we start the IMHOME my plan is to have the therapist train us and then go back and do a session and have her run a session with  son to get things rolling. I ask for as many 30 minute session as we could get for the money because my son will not work for more than that. The therapist is 6 hours away but next to my mom so I can always take my son down and let him do a few sessions with her if we can't figure this out once we get home. 

 

Motivating my son has its ups and downs Bal-a-Vis-X has and guitar have been very successful as well as structured programs like fast Forword where I can coach but I don't have to lead. Areas where I have to run the show are a mixed bag. My plan now is to get trained by therapists and then coach at home. We currently work on this for  Speach Therapy and that goes well. I have a feeling that the planned program of IM HOME will be a good fit for us. We are going to just do this 30 minutes 4 days a week as wake up time. This will replace fast forword as we finish up. 

 

After this I may circle back to Cogmed ( working memory) because I found an inexpensive way to access that at home. I also have a good lead on a program that focuses on hearing in noise & Dichotic listening  that I will hit this summer along with a bravewriter course. Honestly at that point he is going to move into the preteen range and I am not going to get much cooperation beyond that.  

 

The primary areas I am focusing on are auditory processing, temporal timing, working memory. I can focus on therapy options right now more than academics because my sons school is doing a good job with math, reading,history,science and journalism. I am working to shore up those weak areas that prevent him from being a stronger student. IE the vision therapy, handwriting therapy, listening therapy, rhythm & music, and initially reading and executive function.