PSA: Dog owners - it is not ok

[Guest]

ArcticMama, I think we are in the same city, and people's lax control of their dogs (especially on hiking trails) is a constant thorn in my side. It's unsafe for their dogs, the other dogs, the kids, the wildlife. Also, the dog poop! People just leave it on the trails; hate that, and it's becoming an issue with bacteria levels in our waterways. I have two dogs, so I'm not a "dog hater" at all. But people really need to be responsible.

Anchorage bowl?

 

Yeah, drives me nuts. And there are some superbly controlled dogs who are a pleasure to see walking right along with their owners. They can range ahead and frolic as much as they like, because as soon as they're called back they return to a nice heel position and stay there! That's dedicated training and those aren't the dogs jumping on or crowding my kids and pooping all over the sidewalk without the owner picking it up.

 

The lazy owners give all the dogs and their owners a bad name!

Edited June 29, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[GoodGrief]

Anchorage bowl?

 

Yeah, drives me nuts. And there are some superbly controlled dogs who are a pleasure to see walking right along with their owners. They can range ahead and frolic as much as they like, because as soon as they're called back they return to a nice heel position and stay there! That's dedicated training and those aren't the dogs jumping on or crowding my kids and pooping all over the sidewalk without the owner picking it up.

 

The lazy owners give all the dogs and their owners a bad name!

 

Yep. People here love their dogs, for sure, which is all well and good. But we are just too populated a city at this point for free range dogs. And dog feces are not a natural part of the environment; I've heard people argue that, lol

[Laura Corin]

One thing that really strikes me is that so many of the dogs in the park are quite relaxed & have excellent social skills. Too many dogs here are just a bit too manic & impolite about their greetings.

 

I wonder if this is partly a function of smaller back gardens. Most British houses don't have enough outdoor space to keep a dog exercised, so daily walks to the park are a necessity.

[Wheres Toto]

We ran into this problem walking our dog.  He's a just over a year old Brittney and one of our neighbors has a much larger dog that they used to walk off leash.  I was out with the dog and the kids one day and that dog came running up the street and lunged at my dog.  My dog jumped into the bushes and the guy the dog was following (but wasn't supposed to be) walked him home.  Told dh and he mentioned that the same thing happened to him so we sent a note to the owners to please keep him on leash at least until we can get them familiar with each other (small neighborhood, they live right up the road).  They seem to be using a leash most of the time now.

 

These same neighbors keep telling us that people are complaining our dog barks when we leave home.  He has serious separation anxiety and prefers to be outside when we're not home (and is allowed in and out freely when we are home).  We are working on the anxiety with training, supplements, etc. but he has water, shade, shelter, toys, and a large fenced in yard to run around.  He's also not left for more than a couple hours at a time now that I'm home, and never at night (latest would be 8:30/9pm).  Our nearest neighbors are about 100 feet away and I've stopped farther up the street when leaving and coming back to listen and heard nothing, and I'm about to resort to setting up a camera to record and see if he's really barking "the entire time we're away".   The neighbors claim he needs more exercise and to be walked more, but in addition to their dog off leash, we also have a few invisible fence people whose dogs run up barking like crazy when we walk by.  Both live where we have no choice but to go past them to take a walk, and cause my dog even more anxiety.   I'm sure he is barking when people walk by since he does that when we are home but our fence is at the back of our driveway so about 40 feet from the road and we live on a dead end street so there's not much traffic.

[swimmermom3]

Instead of mace I'd recommend an Air horn (like you use on a boat) or a pop up umbrella. 

 

My favourite technique though is to chuck a huge handful of treats at the approaching dog & do a 180 with my dog & walk away. 

 

I clicker train & I always have a bait bag of treats. I actually worked on this bhvr & my guys know that if I chuck treats on the ground that means we're walking briskly away - of course they get major rewards for doing this. It's a heavily reinforced bhvr. 

 

My malamute used to be very reactive to dogs she didn't know but with lots of positive reinforcement training she learned to first ignore dogs and to greet them appropriately. Now she's mostly blind & deaf so she really doesn't notice them -  the only good side effect of aging ;)

 

I love the idea of an air horn.  There is a "gentleman" on my walks who allows his very big dog to jump at me like he is going to attack. I've about had it.

[amy g.]

My dogs will not stay in any fence. They are too concerned that maybe the neighbor's cow might not be taking care of her new calf. Better get over there and check on that. They want to patrol the whole neighborhood.

 

Therefore, they are always in the house, in their crates or on a leash. My neighbor's do not need to deal with my dogs on their property and our county does have leash laws.

 

I used to walk them 2 miles in the morning and my older girls would walk them 2 miles in the evening. In between the dogs were happy to sprawl out on the cool tile in the house.

 

The problem is that my neighbors refuse to keep their dogs on their own property.

 

One dug out and attacked my dog when we were walking. I should have dropped the leash and let my dog kill theirs, but my instinct was to pull my dog away and save their dog's life. In the process, I twisted my knee horribly.

 

I still tried to be a good neighbor and I wrote them a note saying, you probably don't know that your dogs are getting out and attacking people. You need to confine them until you can fix your fence to contain them.

 

They did absolutely nothing.

 

I called animal control and they were given a warning.

 

It was months before my knee healed enough to walk my dogs again. When I did, their dogs broke through the fence and started attack again. Fortunately, a big truck came down the road and was able to scare them off so could get home.

 

I called animal control again. I took pictures of them out of their yard and the owners were fined.

 

They still have not made their fence such that it will keep their dogs in.

 

I'm furious that they infringe upon our right to walk down our own street.

[Pawz4me]

I wonder if this is partly a function of smaller back gardens. Most British houses don't have enough outdoor space to keep a dog exercised, so daily walks to the park are a necessity.

 

I think many (probably most) dogs in the U.S. are bored out of their minds.

 

People get them and then pretty much ignore them, or only give them the most minimum amount of attention or training. They see no need at all to walk the dog when it can go out the back door. The problem with that is pretty much no dog has ever really exercised itself, nor does the same-old-same-old back yard provide anything in the way of mental stimulation.

 

A bored, untrained, unsocialized dog is apt to go bonkers at the least little bit of unusual interaction.

 

The fact that so many here in the U.S. are so anti-dog certainly makes it much more difficult even for those of us who do believe in training and socializing and giving our dogs plenty of mental exercise and stimulation. There are only so many pet stores one can visit before it gets really old. :(

 

The UK is so much more advanced than we are in this regard. 

[hornblower]

Curious - how is the US anti-dog ?

 

 

dogs are not allowed on transit, trains, restaurants, pubs...

[Murphy101]

dogs are not allowed on transit, trains, restaurants, pubs...

I don't think the US is anti-dog. Or anti-cat. Or whatever.

 

Maybe if the dog training ever catches up to the common expectations in the UK, it might possibly make sense to change the restrictions.

 

But until then people break those rules all the time and then have the nerve to act insulted when people don't appreciate their dog crapping or peeing wherever, yapping it's head off, running around and into people or their things. These are things I have seen at Walmart, a grocery store, and a few other places over recent years. Not to mention my own yard.

 

Almost without exception they don't stop their animal or clean up after it or even apologize.

 

So no thanks.

 

And yeah yeah I know - but they have a well trained sweetie. Every one of them thinks that. Well they don't.

 

If they did, this thread wouldn't exist.

 

So I stand by my opinion that people who don't train or contain their dog shouldn't get to keep it. Even if it means the animal is put down bc it didn't get another home. I'm just thoroughly done with these jerks.

 

If they love it so much - train it or contain it or give it a home where it will be.

[hornblower]

Same here, unless the dog is a service dog, for example, a guide dog for the visually impaired.

 

I don't really see that as anti-dog, tbh. 

I do see that as anti dog. If I can't take my dog on transit, can't take it on the train, can't stop in a restaurant for quick bite while I'm out with my dog, it means the dog is not welcome in the places I go; it's excluded from too many parts of my life.  It makes pet ownership without a car very hard here. 

 

I remember being so astonished about a UK agility girl I follow, when she said she was taking a train to a competition. I was envisioning something like we have to do when you fly with a dog - crates, dropped off with cargo, etc. Nope, her ESS rode in the compartment with her. She went to another town for the day, was able to go eat meals etc, all with her dog by her side. 

 

[Murphy101]

Why dogs? Why not cats? Or birds? Or lizards? Or pigs? Why is your pet worthy of equal human access but not other pets?

 

But I'm in the Midwest. If you don't have your own car, you are screwed whether you have a pet or not, so that argument doesn't hold here.

[hornblower]

I'm not speciest. Other pets are fine with me too. :)  I have other animals, not just dogs. 

I do pooper scoop. I don't have outdoor cats (added that because people get upset about cats using their yards for the toilet. Interestingly, in the UK that's also considered ok.)  
 

Edited June 30, 2016 by hornblower

[Murphy101]

I'm not speciest. Other pets are fine with me too. :) I have other animals, not just dogs.

 

I do pooper scoop. I don't have outdoor cats.

 

I love critters of almost any kind. We have dogs, cats, birds, fish, amphibians...

 

I just don't think it reasonable to take them everywhere with me. Maybe that makes me a speciest. I'm okay with it though.🙂

[momma2three]

Since you are using the term I've brought into the conversation derisively, let me just say, my dog is leashed at all times.   So, it is not "all dog owners".

 

It is a term I picked up from a trainer.  A dog that responds consistently to vocal commands is not some weird anomaly. It is something any dog (without trauma or health issues) can be taught.  Obviously some owners don't understand the etiquette or choose to disregard it.  That is a selfish-neighbor problem.....  like people who play loud music at the beach or people who smoke in doorways.   It is not "all dog owners".

 

I'm aware that it's a real term.  It's a big deal in my town right now, actually.  There's a 500 acre nature preserve that's basically turned into a dog park, because the official rule is that "dogs who are voice controlled are allowed to be off leashes."  People come from all over the area with their dogs, and many of those dogs are totally NOT voice controlled by any reasonable definition, although the owners standing there screaming "No!  No!  Come back!  Stop it!  Here girl!  Here girl!" apparently seem to think that they have some sort of control.  The result is that other people don't go there, because the place is overrun with dogs.  Several kids riding their bikes there have been bit, my own kids have been knocked over (multiple times), and it's a huge issue.

 

I am pretty derisive about the term these days, because there is actually no standard, and it's ruined one of my favorite parks, and made my kids TERRIFIED of dogs because of bad experiences there.

 

However, I don't think that "all dogs" are not as well trained as their owners seem to think.  The only universal statement I'll make is that anyone laughing and calling their dog friendly when the dog is jumping on me and sniffing my crotch is a jerk, because I'm really not interested in making dog friends right now.

 

And no, I don't actually dislike dogs. 

[poppy]

I'm aware that it's a real term.  It's a big deal in my town right now, actually.  There's a 500 acre nature preserve that's basically turned into a dog park, because the official rule is that "dogs who are voice controlled are allowed to be off leashes."  People come from all over the area with their dogs, and many of those dogs are totally NOT voice controlled by any reasonable definition, although the owners standing there screaming "No!  No!  Come back!  Stop it!  Here girl!  Here girl!" apparently seem to think that they have some sort of control.  The result is that other people don't go there, because the place is overrun with dogs.  Several kids riding their bikes there have been bit, my own kids have been knocked over (multiple times), and it's a huge issue.

 

I am pretty derisive about the term these days, because there is actually no standard, and it's ruined one of my favorite parks, and made my kids TERRIFIED of dogs because of bad experiences there.

 

However, I don't think that "all dogs" are not as well trained as their owners seem to think.  The only universal statement I'll make is that anyone laughing and calling their dog friendly when the dog is jumping on me and sniffing my crotch is a jerk, because I'm really not interested in making dog friends right now.

 

And no, I don't actually dislike dogs. 

 

Yeah, in my experience every town / area has a park that's basically turned over to dogs and dog owners.

Ours is a state-owned woodsy mountain patch of land. I lived in this town 9 years without a dog and never visited it... it was the park for dog owners.

Now that I have a dog, I like going there, because it gives her opportunities for socializiation.

There are always other places to visit, no?  

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by poppy

[poppy]

In my part of Massachusetts we have two major nature preserve systems, the Trustees of Reservations and the Mass Audubon. Trustees allow dogs, Audubon does not.

Audubon has lots of kiddie programs and it's one of my favorite places, partly because it is a wildlife preserve and therefore doesn't allow domesticated pets.

But I also have a list of every multiacre Trustee site and am going through them one-by-one with my dog (leashed) and that's a marvelous experience as well.

 

[momma2three]

I'm in MA too, and yes, there are many places to visit.  I was always particularly fond of this one... it had wide paved roads that were great for biking, is right on a big river next to the ocean, has a bunch of cool little ecosystems.  It's really a great park.  And there used to be all sorts of wildlife: bird watchers came from all over the region.  All those birds are gone now, of course.  I rode my bike there as a kid, and I'm sad that my kids can't.  I miss going there.  But it's not safe.  I wish the town would change the rule.

 

I suspect it is true that every community has an park known for dogs.  But turning a 500 acre nature preserve over to dogs (and don't even get me started on the dog walkers who bring 10 unleashed dogs at a time in there) seems a bit much, no?

Edited June 30, 2016 by momma2three

[Laura Corin]

 

A bored, untrained, unsocialized dog is apt to go bonkers at the least little bit of unusual interaction.

 

I was wondering whether it was the lack of unleashed areas that were part of the problem. I honestly think that Brits are pretty vague about dog training. There are training courses, but most dogs just walk roughly to heel on the lead and come back (usually) when called. Maybe 'sit' too. But if they have more free play, maybe that itself helps with behaviour. I don't know.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Laura Corin

[Laura Corin]

I don't have outdoor cats (added that because people get upset about cats using their yards for the toilet. Interestingly, in the UK that's also considered ok.)  

 

 

Yes, it is considered okay.  I think it's vile.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Laura Corin

[Pawz4me]

I was wondering whether it was the lack of unleashed areas that were part of the problem. I honestly think that Brits are pretty vague about dog training. There are training courses, but most dogs just walk roughly to heel on the lead and come back (usually) when called. Maybe 'sit' too. But if they have more free play, maybe that itself helps with behaviour. I don't know.

 

I think it's the whole environment.

 

I've never been to the UK, so I'm just going on what I've read. It seems that dogs are much more welcome and accepted in public places there. The more places they can go, the more they get used to it. What is novel and exciting for a dog who is exposed to nothing but his home and yard quickly becomes "ho hum" to a dog who is familiar with it. I've only been to a handful of cities here in the U.S. (almost all of them tourist destinations) that are truly dog friendly. The dogs I've seen in those places all tend to be much better behaved than the average U.S. dog. My guess is that it's because the dogs in those places are routinely  taken out and exposed to new people and new places. They're not in a novel situation. They aren't dogs who've spent 99.9 percent of their lives in their own home or yard. Being in a different place isn't  particularly new or exciting to them, so they behave.

 

It's really no different than with toddlers and little kids -- you can't really teach them how to behave in a restaurant or other public place if you never take them there. You can lay the groundwork at home, but you can't truly teach them how to handle themselves in public by practicing at home. The training that has to take place in a restaurant isn't always a pleasant experience, and certainly can be an inconvenience to those around you who'd like to enjoy their meal or shopping w/o having to hear a crying or tantruming toddler. But most humans understand that little ones have to learn by repeated exposure. The same is true of dogs -- I can teach a dog the basics at home or in a training class, but to truly teach him how to behave well in a public place I have to take him to that public place regularly. And that is very hard to do in the U.S. when most places are unwelcoming to dogs. So we end up with a lot of dogs who, when given the chance to be in a novel situation, don't know how to behave.

 

(Of course none of that excuses allowing dogs off leash when and where they shouldn't be. That's one of my pet peeves. There is zero excuse for it. As much as I want to have a well socialized dog (he is), I have absolutely no right to allow my dog to bother anyone else in any way.)

[Laura Corin]

I think it's the whole environment.

 

I've never been to the UK, so I'm just going on what I've read. It seems that dogs are much more welcome and accepted in public places there.

 

I don't think it's quite as free and easy as it maybe sounds.  Dogs are mostly allowed on public transport.  Restaurants can make their own decisions, and most only allow dogs at outside seating (which, given the climate, gives limited access). The exception is country pubs, where dogs are often allowed in the bar area where you can often also eat.  Most shops (and definitely food shops) don't allow dogs.  It's pretty common to see dogs tied up outside food shops.  I don't tend to run errands with my dog because I'd be constantly tying and untying her outside shops. 

 

There might be more places to walk dogs, which might reduce conflict.  In Scotland we have right to roam across private land, so long as the dog is under control.  Of course, I don't take the dog near livestock, particularly in the breeding season.  In England, because it has been densely inhabited for so long, there are many, many public rights of way.  There is also a fair bit of open access land:  https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam

 

[Pawz4me]

I don't think it's quite as free and easy as it maybe sounds.  Dogs are mostly allowed on public transport.  Restaurants can make their own decisions, and most only allow dogs at outside seating (which, given the climate, gives limited access). The exception is country pubs, where dogs are often allowed in the bar area where you can often also eat.  Most shops (and definitely food shops) don't allow dogs.  It's pretty common to see dogs tied up outside food shops.  I don't tend to run errands with my dog because I'd be constantly tying and untying her outside shops. 

 

There might be more places to walk dogs, which might reduce conflict.  In Scotland we have right to roam across private land, so long as the dog is under control.  Of course, I don't take the dog near livestock, particularly in the breeding season.  In England, because it has been densely inhabited for so long, there are many, many public rights of way.  There is also a fair bit of open access land:  https://www.gov.uk/right-of-way-open-access-land/use-your-right-to-roam

 

 

But what you describe in your first paragraph means the UK is exponentially more dog friendly than the U.S.

 

To be allowed on public transportation -- Not here.

 

To allow restaurants to make their own decisions -- Not here, or at least not in most places. State/local sanitation laws govern it. I think some places do allow dogs in outside eating areas, but from what I've seen the municipalities that allow that are much more the exception than the rule.

 

To have places available to tie up a dog outside of shops -- Not typical at all here. I think it's fair to say if most people saw a dog tied up outside a shop in most places in the U.S. they would assume the dog had been abandoned.

[Wheres Toto]

We try to take our dog out with us whenever we can but I agree it's hard in the US, except for those people who claim their purse dog is a therapy dog.  We belong to a lake where we can bring him, but he's not allowed on the beach so I only do that when lifeguards are scheduled so I have extra eyes on the kids while I'm farther away (I can still see the swim area from where I have the dog).  We are going camping this weekend and bringing him with us.   We will also be joining a 4-H dog club in September and will be going to meetings weekly (except once a month we'll miss for our 4-H club meetings).   He's an unneutered male (for now, that could change) so I'm not sure how that works in dog parks.  We have a fully fenced in small one semi-locally.

I really am hoping that this will help him with his anxiety and behavior. I am under no delusions about him being voice trained, he is ALWAYS on leash when out of our yard.  I've been working on "Come" and he does well on our walks (on a 25 foot leash, I reel him in whenever we see anyone else walking, a car, anything and to keep  him out of people's yards) or in our yard but I'm definitely not ready to test it out in public places with him off-leash. 

[momma2three]

I live in Boston and see leashed (or, if they're small, bagged) dogs on the subway all the time.  I don't know if there's no rule, or if it's just a rule that people ignore, but I wouldn't overstate the "dogs are never allowed on public transportation in the US" thing.

 

I've spent between a few weeks and a few months a year in London for the past 20 years or so, and I haven't noticed a huge difference in training there versus in cities here, or that dogs are allowed in more places. I don't think I've ever seen dogs in a supermarket or restaurant, except tied up outside.  I see dogs on the Boston subway WAY more often than the London Tube.  

 

 

To have places available to tie up a dog outside of shops -- Not typical at all here. I think it's fair to say if most people saw a dog tied up outside a shop in most places in the U.S. they would assume the dog had been abandoned.

 

 

And I see dogs tied up outside stores and restaurants all the time in the US?  What else are you going to do with them?  There aren't special dog-tying places in either London or Boston/the Boston burbs, you just use the nearest tree, bike rack, lamp post, whatever.  Nobody assumes they're abandoned, unless you see them there all day.

 

I don't have much experience hanging out with dogs in more suburban/rural areas of England, but I think there's more likely a difference between urban and suburban dogs that is common both in the UK and the US... urban dogs HAVE to be highly trained so that they don't chase traffic, and with a higher population density you need to be much more aware of who they're bothering.  Suburban dogs (and I live in the suburbs) are much more likely to be large, high-energy breeds that have free reign of fenced in yards, and are taken to large parks.  Cars aren't an issue, other people are less of an issue, and the training level is weaker not because of cultural issues, but just because it can be.

Edited June 30, 2016 by momma2three

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dogs are tied up outside of stores in my area. No one thinks that they are abandoned. Dogs are also frequently allowed in outdoor seating areas of restaurants. Weather depending, of course. We see a fair number of dogs in stores now as "service dogs " (I doubt that all of them are legitimate).

 

My dogs are fine with other dogs at dog parks. They aren't fine if they are (legally) leashed and the other dog isn't. It puts them at a disadvantage and they know it.

 

In our neighborhood we have a number of dogs, including my own, who go out front on their unfenced yards to do their business unleashed. They are well behaved and do not go off of the property. (I only trust one of my dogs with this level of freedom and allow it mostly because she is disabled and can't easily handle the stairs out back).

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hornblower]

This just came across my fb feed again & it's the technique I wrote about above.  So if anyone wanted to see how it works in more detail: 

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/it-works-how-to-stop-an-approaching-dog-in-an-emergency-2