So very disappointed

[seema]

My  dd 13 has HFA, struggles with math, reading comprehension, writing, delayed social skills, executive function.

I have spent countless hours teaching, hiring tutors for many yrs, doing OT, Speech, social skills training, finished course of vision therapy(COVD), seeing psychologist for individual therapy.

It seems I am still struggling with all the same issues, don't see any meaningful change.

The same math problems, that we have covered over and over numerous times, she still gets them wrong after she had mastered them. It seems she masters a concept, we move on and then when we go back to the topic that was mastered, she has forgtten it. It is hard to tease out if its dyspraxia or poor effort or poor memory or something else.

We do CLE which is spiral.

Here is the part that I dont understand, if I am sitting with her and looking (not helping) and watching over every problem she does, she does way better, than if she were to do  them by herself. Does that mean its  behavioral/poor effort?

Anyone has any suggestions please.

[EndOfOrdinary]

My son had this major issue when confidence was shakey.  If I sat there, he was more confident, and then he proceeded to do much better.  I have no idea if this is what is happening to you, but it might be.

[PeterPan]

Well you've got the Vygotsky thought process that what they can do with a mentor is indicative of skills that are formative and that that's GOOD...  I would definitely keep doing it if it's working!

 

Do the math skills generalize to functional things she needs?  This is an age to start to think about transition, life skills, where you want this to end up. 

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

I agree, she may just not have any confidence when you are absent from the immediate area.   Also, could you be subtly giving her clues?  

 

 

Since she is doing CLE, and there is a TON of review, fairly tight review, in CLE, does that mean she is forgetting within a day or two?

 

Have you looked into dsyscalculia?  Has she been evaluated for that?

 

What is she forgetting?  Procedures?  Concepts?  Algorithms?  Everything?  

 

Have you tried doing a quick review on a dry erase board before letting her tackle the rest of the problems on her own?

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

DS12 forgets math concepts that he mastered previously. We used CLE until this past school year, when he enrolled in school. During his IEP evaluations, he scored very low in all of the math categories, even though he had been working on level in CLE and getting mixed grades on the tests, but about a low B average. I was very surprised that he scored so low on the evaluations (even though I already knew he had a math LD), but he really just had forgotten many of the foundational concepts that they were testing. He has a conceptual math LD. He can calculate and follow simple algorithms and memorize things, but concepts don't stick. It's frustrating.

 

If we went back to homeschooling again, I think I would continue to use CLE, but with a greater understanding that he needs additional and constant tutoring in basic math concepts, such as counting money, telling time, easy fractions, etc. Yes, CLE reviews continuously, but it also drops off reviewing concepts after a time and moves on to higher skills. I didn't realize he was actually forgetting the earlier concepts as we worked on the higher level skills. Most people retain those and build on them, but he forgets them. Things like telling time, counting money, dividing a circle into thirds -- second grade math -- CLE doesn't continue to review those in the higher levels, because they are assumed to be mastered.

 

I think for a student like this, there has to be some way to constantly assess previously learned material to spot the holes as they open up. I'm not sure how I would do that. Maybe every three or four months have the student take the CLE placement test so that you can see the concepts that have been forgotten. You could also use those first books in each level as a kind of reassessment tool, since they review all of the concepts that were previously taught. That way you could use CLE's own assessment process to find the holes. Then have a dedicated tutoring time each week where you focus just on those concepts. Don't give up on moving forward in math, but just continually fill those gaps in understanding. Maybe 10-15 minutes a day of working on concepts that aren't mastered yet or have been forgotten, in addition to the normal daily lesson.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

In DS's IEP, he is placed in the regular math class for his age, but he also is to get 20 minutes day of math help from the intervention teacher to work on the basic skills that he is lacking. So regular math curriculum plus intervention for the conceptual understanding. Basically an extra half math class per day, geared toward his specific needs.

 

The school has not put this into practice yet (will start at the beginning of the school year), so I can't say how much it will help him, but it seems like a good approach and could be done the same at home with homeschooling.

[OneStepAtATime]

DS12 forgets math concepts that he mastered previously. We used CLE until this past school year, when he enrolled in school. During his IEP evaluations, he scored very low in all of the math categories, even though he had been working on level in CLE and getting mixed grades on the tests, but about a low B average. I was very surprised that he scored so low on the evaluations (even though I already knew he had a math LD), but he really just had forgotten many of the foundational concepts that they were testing. He has a conceptual math LD. He can calculate and follow simple algorithms and memorize things, but concepts don't stick. It's frustrating.

 

If we went back to homeschooling again, I think I would continue to use CLE, but with a greater understanding that he needs additional and constant tutoring in basic math concepts, such as counting money, telling time, easy fractions, etc. Yes, CLE reviews continuously, but it also drops off reviewing concepts after a time and moves on to higher skills. I didn't realize he was actually forgetting the earlier concepts as we worked on the higher level skills. Most people retain those and build on them, but he forgets them. Things like telling time, counting money, dividing a circle into thirds -- second grade math -- CLE doesn't continue to review those in the higher levels, because they are assumed to be mastered.

 

I think for a student like this, there has to be some way to constantly assess previously learned material to spot the holes as they open up. I'm not sure how I would do that. Maybe every three or four months have the student take the CLE placement test so that you can see the concepts that have been forgotten. You could also use those first books in each level as a kind of reassessment tool, since they review all of the concepts that were previously taught. That way you could use CLE's own assessment process to find the holes. Then have a dedicated tutoring time each week where you focus just on those concepts. Don't give up on moving forward in math, but just continually fill those gaps in understanding. Maybe 10-15 minutes a day of working on concepts that aren't mastered yet or have been forgotten, in addition to the normal daily lesson.

I like this idea!  I may look at getting copies of the first light unit of earlier levels to help with review of previous concepts no longer directly reviewed in CLE.   The ones already used have been boxed up but I don't mind getting another copy.  Cool.   

 

OP, the TM also has some targeted math pages so if you have the TMs you could go back and photocopy the targeted math problems pages in the back of the TM.  Combining that with the first light unit of each level might be helpful for additional review.

[PeterPan]

You could explore "don't stick" vs. "don't generalize".  My ds, like the others, has math SLD plus the ASD.  For him a spiral curriculum would just mean he memorized it temporarily in that setting.  He might not then be able to do the same task elsewhere.  So 5+3=8 could be learned in an app for drill (we've done this), but then does it =8 when he's using it with time in the car or with money in the store or with scores for a game?  For him, there's lots of need to generalize, to use it in lots of settings, lots of ways.  

 

I think it's going to be easier to lose what was memorized if it's only getting used in that one context or was working with her weakest modality.  Paper math is going to be visual, and she had VT.  So going more kinesthetic or auditory might give her more connections in the brain for it.  

 

To me, I want to make sure he has the most important application of the math, the life application, and I'm less worried about the on paper version.  So whatever the skill is from the CLE, can she do it in life where it shows up?

[OneStepAtATime]

OhE makes an excellent point. It took me a while to realize that DD was not understanding that whatever she was doing in her math lessons actually applied outside of those lessons too. We had to work together to help her be able to understand where what she had learned applied in the world around her. Tying math to things of relevance has helped with retention and understanding.

Edited June 28, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[Tiramisu]

In terms of doing better doing it alone, I have a couple like that. I think it's a processing issue where any input from me while they are thinking a problem out mucks up their mental processes and they can get really frustrated. With my oldest, she became independent because of necessity because I has three youngers I was hsing. With my youngest, I had to intentionally seek out high quality materials that would guide her through the learning process without me. She doesn't have LDs so that makes it easier. But I'm going to have to make a change in math next year.

There's just a very fine line between teaching them just enough and overloading them.

My oldest tells me she can only process one thing at a time, so all other info spins around until its turn comes to go through the thought- process funnel.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Tiramisu

[City Mouse]

If she can do the work when you are sitting next (not helping in any way) to her and can't do it on her own, I might suspect some ADHD along with the HFA. I don't remember the exact numbers, but something like 50% of kids with AU diagnosis also have ADHD. (Or it could be the other way around)

[seema]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I agree, she may just not have any confidence when you are absent from the immediate area.   Also, could you be subtly giving her clues?  

 

 

Since she is doing CLE, and there is a TON of review, fairly tight review, in CLE, does that mean she is forgetting within a day or two?

 

Have you looked into dsyscalculia?  Has she been evaluated for that?

 

What is she forgetting?  Procedures?  Concepts?  Algorithms?  Everything?  

 

Have you tried doing a quick review on a dry erase board before letting her tackle the rest of the problems on her own?

she forgets both procedure and concepts, also she is not able to generalize it. I also use not just CLE but use similar topics in workbooks, IXL, so she can try to generalize. 

once I review, it all comes back, like eureka!

but I have to review so very often...

[seema]

You could explore "don't stick" vs. "don't generalize".  My ds, like the others, has math SLD plus the ASD.  For him a spiral curriculum would just mean he memorized it temporarily in that setting.  He might not then be able to do the same task elsewhere.  So 5+3=8 could be learned in an app for drill (we've done this), but then does it =8 when he's using it with time in the car or with money in the store or with scores for a game?  For him, there's lots of need to generalize, to use it in lots of settings, lots of ways.  

 

I think it's going to be easier to lose what was memorized if it's only getting used in that one context or was working with her weakest modality.  Paper math is going to be visual, and she had VT.  So going more kinesthetic or auditory might give her more connections in the brain for it.  

 

To me, I want to make sure he has the most important application of the math, the life application, and I'm less worried about the on paper version.  So whatever the skill is from the CLE, can she do it in life where it shows up?

She is unable and unwilling to apply this in real life. Like when we go shopping, If something is say 25% off, she feels its too much for her to calculate in her head in the store setting and will refuse to do it. When we do similar problems at home, she can easily do that.

I have not been able to work on life application, its hard to get her to do these at stores, she doesn't want to. Any ideas on how to get her interested in life applications?

[OneStepAtATime]

If she is easily distracted or has low working memory then trying to calculate percentages while in a store may be very challenging for her.  This may have less to do with attitude and more to do with the fact that her brain is a bit overwhelmed in that environment.  FWIW, my mother still can't do percentages in a store.  She can do it just fine when sitting quietly at a table at home.

 

Not sure how to help with that.  Hopefully someone else has a suggestion or two...

[PeterPan]

Yup, you're probably going to have to start with much simpler tasks for real life application.

[Arcadia]

If she is easily distracted or has low working memory then trying to calculate percentages while in a store may be very challenging for her. This may have less to do with attitude and more to do with the fact that her brain is a bit overwhelmed in that environment.

My dad needs pen and paper so he had notepad/memopad and a pen in his shirt pocket. His memory isn't strong since young so he has to write things down to refer later. My dad passed his school exams by drill and kill.

 

My brother on the other hand seems to have homework anxiety and need someone sitting next to him as security blanket. My mom could be reading the newspapers next to him and he would be okay.

[kbutton]

My kiddo with ASD is good at math, but he does have some issues with generalization. 

 

Some suggestions:

--https://simplycharlottemason.com/store/your-business-math/  Simply Charlotte Mason has some business math options. It's limited practice because it doesn't cover all the math topics, but it's very practical math.

--Singapore Math Intensive Practice books...we used these with my son because they expand on concepts by changing one little thing at a time to make the student think, but yet, they aren't teaching something totally new. They are usually just a big harder than the textbook/workbook for the same level, so you could do a Singapore placement test, and then use the books a level behind for review. Everything covered in the regular curriculum is covered in the IP, I believe. It's topical vs. spiral, but if you are doing it on material that should be familiar, you can do the pages in any order. My one kiddo used it on level, so we do it in order with him (the ASD kiddo), and the other kiddo does it a little behind level, so he picks things to do out of the book at random.

--Play math games. You might have to make some up that have a broader range of questions or maybe you could make a Trivial Pursuit style gameboard where she has to earn a token showing correct answers in each of several different math games to complete a round.

--Bring real world stuff home rather than doing it on the spot. Compare the difference in several of your usual groceries with the sale prices, and have her calculate what percentage you save on each item and on the overall bill if you bought x number of each item. Pretend catalog shop--give her a budget, a list of items she has to "buy" (like underwear if shopping for clothes), and then let her spend the rest on discretionary items. Publish pretend sale flyers for two consecutive weeks, and have her figure out which week would've been the best one to make her purchases or see if she would change what she decided to buy.

--Calculate gas mileage for pretend trips (or real ones after the fact). http://3kidsinnorthamerica.blogspot.ca/2012/07/how-we-are-travelling-virtually-across.html 

 

Does your child display novel thinking that sometimes gets sticky when a real world problem comes up? My son does, and we have to work on "his" way of solving a problem as well as the "standard" way. His way is almost always conceptually sound, but it might not cover all the bases that the standard way of solving the problem would. For example, he loves to solve percentage problems by figuring out what 1/100 of something is and then multiplying that times 25, if the question is asking what 25% of something is. This works in some contexts, but it doesn't work so easily when you know that you paid $3.50 in tax, the item cost $x, and you want to know what percentage tax you paid (around here, each county has a different tax rate--we have a mall that has different tax rates for different stores because it's on the county line, lol!). So, my son might be having some perfectly legitimate struggle to apply his novel but sound thinking to a new situation, but if I just assume he's struggling with a formula, we aren't going to communicate about how to solve the problem. Since ASD kiddos are really good at not sharing relevant details at times, I thought I'd throw that out there. 

 

***Adding, my son really HATES having school show up in a store or in some relaxed atmosphere. He considers it a bait and switch kind of thing or that he is being held hostage ("Hey, I thought we were finished school!!! I just want to buy my Lego set. No fair!") OTOH, if we decided that math today for school is to go such and such a place and do xyz, he'd be fine. He'd probably want a white board and a way to not look like a dork standing in a store calculating things, but he'd be okay with doing something real life in place of school and not during a "regular" trip to the store.

Edited June 29, 2016 by kbutton

[MomatHWTK]

IMO, the best way to avoid disappointment is to not have expectations. That doesn't mean that you are not providing your child with every support possible, it just means that you do so not in hopes of a specific outcome. I view therapies, programs, and scaffolding as a means to give my child opportunities. But because each SN child is unique, setting hopes for measurable outcomes doesn't work for me.

 

I've also found that if my child is struggling in an area, I am more at peace if I provide consistent support but slow down on efforts to move the child forward. So, when my oldest had difficulty in math, we still studied math but I didn't push for him to advance in math. Sometimes the child will mature and be able to perform better later. 

[KSinNS]

Ditto think about generalization. Also anxiety. My ASD kid is a super math student, but can't think if he is anxious. Often if he is a little stuck he can't do it unless I am there for moral support. Something to think about.

[imagine.more]

She is unable and unwilling to apply this in real life. Like when we go shopping, If something is say 25% off, she feels its too much for her to calculate in her head in the store setting and will refuse to do it. When we do similar problems at home, she can easily do that.

I have not been able to work on life application, its hard to get her to do these at stores, she doesn't want to. Any ideas on how to get her interested in life applications?

There are some great units on grocery shopping or other real life skills on TeachersPayTeachers. People have already made pretend fliers, coupons, sales scenarios. Etc with engaging pictures. You could find some of those to work ok these skills as school time but with a real world application. Then maybe do online shopping challenges (real or pretend) by assigning a budget and certain clothing items to purchase. Talk through the sales percentages and have her write down the math problem or do it in her head. Retailmenot always lists coupon codes for different stores and there's always something online. This can be a good transition to using the skills in real life scenarios before doing it on the spot in the store.

[PeterPan]

Probably real life in a store is too fast for her. Try Christine Reeves store on TPT for math materials.

[PeterPan]

Autism Classroom News-Christine Reeve Teaching Resources | Teachers Pay Teachers

 

Here's her whole listing of math to get you inspired.  Things will be in the $3 range, sometimes with free samples to try, and there are bundles.  Usually her bundles are CHOCK FULL of great stuff!  And it would even just give you ideas of how you can bring concepts into reach, how you can make complex subjects hands-on, etc.  LOVE Christine Reeve's stuff.  It's not an IQ thing (only for ID, whatever), because my ds is gifted.  It's just good stuff.

 

How Many Dollars? Task Cards: Money [Next Dollar] Skills [special Education]

 

Look at this one, for instance.  (It's at the first link.)  It's $3, but for me it was like OH, that's what I'm supposed to do!  So then I have a little thing we can do anywhere.  We can do it with the printed materials, or we can carry it over to life.  She has kits for shopping, groceries, dept stores, you name it.  

Edited July 3, 2016 by OhElizabeth