Do you guys know anything about the IB program in high school?

[DawnM]

My son will be an 11th grader next year.  He is going to switch from the charter school to our local PS.  

 

In talking to the counselor, she said  he should go into the IB program.  

 

I honestly don't know much about it.  She was pushing it hard so didn't seem willing to explain why that was so much better and what the alternative would be.

 

My neighbor has said DON'T DO IT!  She told me that it is a lot of busy work, not more challenging academically to just taking honors and AP classes, and that colleges don't really recognize it as anything special, so taking honors and AP would be better, and allow him time to be a kid.

 

What do you know about and IB program?  I mean, I can google and read WHAT it is, but I don't really know what it means......what do they DO that is so different than the regular ed program?

 

Thanks,

Dawn

Edited June 26, 2016 by DawnM

[Laura Corin]

Calvin did it.  The structure is this: six main subjects, each taken for two years, three at standard level and three at higher level.  You have to take English, maths, a foreign language a science and a humanities.  The last subject can be an arts subject or an extra subject of one of the other kinds.

 

In addition, there is an extended essay and a course in the theory of knowledge.  PE, volunteering and some kind of artistic endeavour (singing in a choir, for example) are also compulsory.

 

We found it to be a lot of work, but not a lot of busy work.  Calvin was very well prepared for university.

 

Things to ask: how many points do the pupils achieve?  The worldwide average is 29, I believe, and you can see what your target universities like to see.  How many subjects are offered to fulfil each area?  

[nansk]

Old threads that mention IB:

 

International Baccalaureate Homeschooling?

International Baccalaureate?

International Baccalaureate program?

[DawnM]

Look carefully to see that they offer the full program.

The program offered here was open to nonhonors students, and that group felt it was writing intensive. Honors students felt it was good, except for the math portion...mathy kids going into engineering or math needed a more accelerated option.

What do they do different...they have to learn to communicate well.its not all effort towards a one shot test in May.

 

 

Wait, what do you mean about mathy kids needing more?

He is very good at math, in fact, it is his strongest subject.  He took honors Math II this year.  He wants to possibly go into engineering.

[EKS]

My son went to a tiny IB school for the first semester of 11th grade.  Since it was only a semester, you may be able to see where this is going...

 

Because the school was so small, there was zero choice in what classes the kids could take.  So no HL math because my son was the only one who qualified (and was interested), just biology for the science (and the teacher was excellent, but my son is an engineering guy, so physics would have been better), just visual art, and you had to take HL English and history because that's what the school decided.

 

Anyway, yes, there was a lot of homework.  But the only thing I thought was actual busywork was what they called a "workbook"for art.  They had to produce four pages each week in a sketchbook of not so much artwork, but reflections about...something.  The teacher never really explained.  But the class was not about acquiring artistic skill, I do know that.  A better teacher could probably done a better job--this particular guy was actually let go the year after my son was there.

 

My son left midyear to homeschool (well, actually, dual enroll at the CC).  Let me tell you, *that* was fun to explain to colleges!  He left because the workload was extremely intense, and it was all about things he wasn't interested in.  So, he had to work all the time on schoolwork and didn't have any time left over to do what he wanted to do (robotics, computer programming, etc).  Oh, and added to the regular classes, there was also CAS (community, activity, and service--basically the IB invading the student's extracurricular time) and the extended essay (giant paper).

 

I don't blame the IB program for this.  I think that if it is implemented properly in a larger school so that students are allowed more choice it can be a great thing.  But my son's experience was pretty horrible.

 

I don't know if it is any better that AP and honors courses.  I suspect that the quality of each class (regardless of whether it is IB, AP, or honors) will be determined by the teacher.

 

Have you heard the saying "IB therefore IBS"?  It is referring to the IB's extreme focus on reflection and independent thought.  I'm all for reflection and independent thought *after* the student has at least some basis for it, say by the time they are taking upper division college courses in their major.  Before that, much of what passes for independent thought is, IMO, BS.

Edited June 26, 2016 by EKS

[Laura Corin]

Wait, what do you mean about mathy kids needing more?

He is very good at math, in fact, it is his strongest subject.  He took honors Math II this year.  He wants to possibly go into engineering.

 

There are three levels of maths (maths studies, standard level maths and higher level maths - all integrated), so talk to the maths department about whether they offer the highest level and how universities view it.

[EKS]

Wait, what do you mean about mathy kids needing more?

He is very good at math, in fact, it is his strongest subject.  He took honors Math II this year.  He wants to possibly go into engineering.

 

Make sure that the school offers HL Math and Physics then.  And I should warn you, HL Math can be weird, especially if they use an IB textbook.  If they do use an IB text, I'd recommend that you get your hands on a copy of it and see if it makes sense to your son.

[wapiti]

IB programs will differ - they are not all alike - so take my comment with a huge grain of salt.  IB has a general reputation for being very, very heavy on volume, i.e., not particularly efficient, and a better fit for traditional learners interested in the humanities but a terrible fit for a kid whose strengths lie more with math than with language.  Of course, you'd need to explore your local IB program to get a sense for how it would fit your kid.

[Laura Corin]

IB programs will differ - they are not all alike - so take my comment with a huge grain of salt.  IB has a general reputation for being very, very heavy on volume, i.e., not particularly efficient, and a better fit for traditional learners interested in the humanities but a terrible fit for a kid whose strengths lie more with math than with language.  Of course, you'd need to explore your local IB program to get a sense for how it would fit your kid.

 

What I've seen is that the people it tends not to fit are those who are very strong in one aspect of learning and just want to do very light classes in other aspects.  So if someone is strong in maths and science and not in humanities, then they might struggle with the level in the humanities classes; similarly if someone is strong in humanities but not in sciences.  People who are more balanced across all aspects do better.

 

There is a lot of writing required: European education doesn't use multi-choice tests much, so there will be a lot of essay writing.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Laura Corin

[rwilk]

I participated in the IB program as a high schooler.  I have nothing but good things to say about it.  

 

Math required not just understanding, but being able to clearly explain what you were doing.  We wrote explanations/papers in math, and the process helped me learn how to communicate mathy-sciencey things clearly.  Foreign language was immersive, and involved reading actual literature in the target language, something I would not be required to do again until upper level college courses. Science was also fantastic---11th grade was AP level, 12th grade was a trimester system where we studied 3 concepts at the lower level college level (we did neurobiology---complete with rats for experiments, anatomy/physiology, and evolution).  

 

I also liked that our school kept the same teachers for both years of the program, so you really got to know one another. I will admit that the program is intense, but it isn't busy work, or it certainly isn't designed to involve busy work.  The exams weren't like the AP tests---multiple choice or just spitting back information. It was all analysis.  Even the math exam was a complex problem that you worked for 3-4 hours, explaining each step of the way.  

 

I will agree that it's heavy on volume, but it's good volume.  I started a 4 year university as a junior, and had enough credits at the start for a bio minor.  

[Arcadia]

The IB program track record in my local public school does not do as well as the private schools. Ask for their track record.

 

For the private school we toured, many parents are thinking of universities in commonwealth nations who would have no issues with understanding an IB diploma. Most parents are foreigners in that school.

 

IB has a general reputation for being very, very heavy on volume, i.e., not particularly efficient, and a better fit for traditional learners interested in the humanities but a terrible fit for a kid whose strengths lie more with math than with language.

It depends on how bad the child's language skills are. My nephew was used to essay exams since 1st grade. He did very well in the IB exam, close to perfect score. He took 4HL and 2SL. The SL are math and Chinese. He is in 3rd year Industrial Systems Engin now. He had Chinese in school since 1st grade but he rather play than take HL Chinese though it is offered in his school.

 

The US system is not homogeneous and does put kids who don't get a second language in public school until 9th grade at a disadvantage. Besides all the multiple choice questions exams also putting kids at a disadvantage.

 

People who are more balanced across all aspects do better.

 

There is a lot of writing required: European education doesn't use multi-choice tests much, so there will be a lot of essay writing.

:iagree:

 

ETA:

His former IB school's results

"We are thrilled that 100% of our 164 students were awarded the Diploma and that 42% of our students achieved a score of 40 points or more. 3 of our students attained a perfect score of 45 points, 8 students attained 44 points, while another 16 obtained 43 points.

 

Students achieved an average score of 37.8 points..."

Edited June 26, 2016 by Arcadia

[fourisenough]

We have a local all-IB public school in our district. Its students score an average 33. I know young women who graduated in recent years and went on to U of Michigan and U Chicago respectively. Both report that college was, if not a breeze, at least very manageable for them compared to their peers from other secondary schools. I hear volume and level of difficulty is high; sounds like it will be a perfect fit for my rising 6th grader, but neither of my older DDs were interested. It isn't for everyone. And I imagine how well-implemented the program is varies wildly. That is why you should ask how students score on the exit exams.

Edited June 26, 2016 by fourisenough

[...................]

My nephew just finished his IB high school program.  

 

HE WORKED HIS BUTT OFF.  They finish with the equivalent of two full years of college and it's accepted worldwide and at most universities nationwide.  They will skip at least an entire year of college, and thereby save money also.

 

He was a little burned out in the end.  Senior year he quit everything except a part time job at the end.  He had to get up at 5am every day and then often did homework and studied till 10 pm at night.  He worked his part time job two days per week senior year, and I think it had more to do with getting his mind off the drudgery of books than even earning gas money.  They did a really cool volunteer project that he really loved, he and his IB friends ran a once a week after school program for fourth graders!  He is really good with kids and it was nice for him to reach out and teach, alongside all that learning!

 

He has now chosen to go into the Army and do online college while in the army.  He just needed to get away from a desk and all the academic pressure.

 

But I don't think he or my sister regret it.  It was an amazing challenge that he chose to rise to.  He is SO GOOD at Spanish.  He took it from 7th grade on as part of the IB prep, and then IB, and he talked all summer long with Spanish people when he worked at a hotel.  They all said his Spanish was really good.  Another benefit is that the air force let him skip two levels because of his education, and if he finishes those other two years he can apply to Officer's School.

 

It was kind of weird when it all happened.  in 6th when they recommended him my sister was kind of surprised.  She knew he was smart and cared about school like for the most part...but she didn't consider him in the top 2% of the country...when they recommended him he felt really excited and proud of himself.  I think they recommended him not just because he was smart and hard working but because they could see he was strong emotionally.   A LOT of IB kids drop out of the program.  

 

Now, all that said, they set him up for success...he took nothing but pre-IB classes from 7th grade on.  It was all repeated and all step by step.  Other than math, (and even in math) everything scaffolded.  He was lucky to get in early.

 

I CANNOT imagine jumping into IB in 11th grade.  In fact I've never heard of that.  All the IB programs I know of select students as early as 6th grade and get them on the IB track between 7th and 9th. My nephew started some Pre-IB classes in 7th!

 

So...in this situation I personally would look very carefully.  Dont forget he can still take AP or Honors courses and be very academically challenged.  IB is kind of a unique WAY of challenging them, but it's not the only way.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Calming Tea

[Lanny]

I read about the IB program at Lubbock High School, several years ago. Can one actually transfer into the IB program as a Junior and get an IB Diploma in that school? I am assuming that is something that must begin in 9th grade.   There may be some preference given in  your state universities. Probably it depends on the state and the reputation of the school issuing the  diploma. Look before you leap!

[DawnM]

Thanks for all the advice.  

 

Last night DH, son, and I talked about it and I think we are leaning towards NOT doing it.

 

We have several reasons, but one is that we just don't think he needs that pressure.  We want him to have time to be a kid.  He wants to be in drama.  He wants to get a job (although that may have to wait until next summer.)

 

Picking and choosing selective AP and honors classes is probably a better option for him.  

[Laura Corin]

I read about the IB program at Lubbock High School, several years ago. Can one actually transfer into the IB program as a Junior and get an IB Diploma in that school? I am assuming that is something that must begin in 9th grade.   There may be some preference given in  your state universities. Probably it depends on the state and the reputation of the school issuing the  diploma. Look before you leap!

 

The IB is a two-year programme.  Calvin studied it from age 15 to 17.   It's not designed to fit neatly into the US high school system. 

[...................]

^^ right, not only that, but kids are prepared for it here in the US by specially selected classes usually in 9th grade but in some places as early as 7th.  

 

It's a whole different way of doing things, and requires someone balanced and highly academic across the board....and very emotionally strong.  

 

I think for most kids picking and choosing among AP and Honors is a better idea....

[merylvdm]

My daughter is an IB student at a local public school - well she will be this fall. IB only starts in 11th grade - until now she has been doing pre-IB to get her ready. At her school they can take the full IB diploma course or the certificate one where you don't have to do the big project, get the volunteer hours and take Theory of Knowledge. Theory of Knowledge looks amazing and is taught by her favorite teacher, but after talking to older students taking the full IB program she decided to take the certificate one instead.

 

As has been said before, the full IB program has specific requirements - and for her it would have meant having to do European History (nothing else would work with her schedule) and she is not a history fan. She decided she wanted to enjoy school a bit more and have more flexibility. She is taking IB Psychology, Theater, English SL, Math SL, Chemistry HL, Spanish HL. This way she still has rigorous classes so it looks good to colleges, but she also has a life! 

[DawnM]

My daughter is an IB student at a local public school - well she will be this fall. IB only starts in 11th grade - until now she has been doing pre-IB to get her ready. At her school they can take the full IB diploma course or the certificate one where you don't have to do the big project, get the volunteer hours and take Theory of Knowledge. Theory of Knowledge looks amazing and is taught by her favorite teacher, but after talking to older students taking the full IB program she decided to take the certificate one instead.

 

As has been said before, the full IB program has specific requirements - and for her it would have meant having to do European History (nothing else would work with her schedule) and she is not a history fan. She decided she wanted to enjoy school a bit more and have more flexibility. She is taking IB Psychology, Theater, English SL, Math SL, Chemistry HL, Spanish HL. This way she still has rigorous classes so it looks good to colleges, but she also has a life! 

 

 

What do the HL and SL letters mean?

[EKS]

What do the HL and SL letters mean?

 

Higher level and standard level.

 

In many cases, colleges will only give credit for the higher level coursework.

[...................]

I thought it was Honors Level and Standard Level 

[Arcadia]

I thought it was Honors Level and Standard Level

 

 

 

It is higher level.

"Students will take some subjects at higher level (HL) and some at standard level (SL). HL and SL courses differ in scope but are measured according to the same grade descriptors, with students expected to demonstrate a greater body of knowledge, understanding and skills at higher level.

 

Each student takes at least three (but not more than four) subjects at higher level, and the remaining at standard level.

 

Standard level subjects take up 150 teaching hours. Higher level comprises 240 teaching hours."

http://ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/

 

 

Can one actually transfer into the IB program as a Junior and get an IB Diploma in that school?

The IB diploma is for 11th & 12th grade. Schools differ in what they offer in 9th and 10th grade. Most offer pre-IB as well as AP courses. The private IB school I toured also make sure their high school students satisfy UC and CSU a-g requirements so they can apply to state universities.

[EKS]

 Standard level subjects take up 150 teaching hours. Higher level comprises 240 teaching hours."

http://ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/

 

I have never understood the hours they cite.  The courses run for two years and students get two credits for them.  With these hour requirements, the SL courses should get 1 credit over two years and HL courses should get 1.5 credits (at least here in WA where 150 hours is a credit). 

[Laura Corin]

I have never understood the hours they cite.  The courses run for two years and students get two credits for them.  With these hour requirements, the SL courses should get 1 credit over two years and HL courses should get 1.5 credits (at least here in WA where 150 hours is a credit). 

 

I suspect it's just to do with the mismatch between the European system and the US system.  I don't know, but I wonder if the HL courses require proportionately much more homework than the SL courses.  The arts courses are all heavy on writing.

[EKS]

I suspect it's just to do with the mismatch between the European system and the US system.  I don't know, but I wonder if the HL courses require proportionately much more homework than the SL courses.  The arts courses are all heavy on writing.

 

This is what I suspected, but they, or at least US IB schools, should offer a conversion in their documentation.  

Edited June 28, 2016 by EKS

[flyingiguana]

There's a lot of variation in the program.  You may be better off getting advice from parents of kids who went through the particular program you're considering.

 

Working at a college, I do hear kids impressions of IB now and then.  From what I can glean it seems the kids who were really into humanities and literature and that kind of thing think it was great, even if they're now in the sciences.  However, when they get into the nitty gritty of explaining what they did, it doesn't seem much different from the WTM approach to humanities.  And what value a student gets out of that is fairly proportional to how interested they are in that approach.  Although, it tends to be less reading than, say, Tapestry of Grace.

 

I will say, though, that the kids I've run into who have thought it was really great have tended to come from families that didn't read much.  So it was really eye opening for them.  A kid who came from a family that did a lot of reading of classics and discussion of various things might not really find the program to be all that earth shattering.  And to them, that busy work appellation might start to apply.

 

 

[flyingiguana]

As far as college admissions goes, I've never heard of a college that didn't have some understanding of what it was.  They tend to look favorably on it.

 

You might try looking at various college websites to see if you can find how they treat IB.  Many will have something about it, just as they have things to say about AP credits.

[flyingiguana]

Thanks for all the advice.  

 

Last night DH, son, and I talked about it and I think we are leaning towards NOT doing it.

 

We have several reasons, but one is that we just don't think he needs that pressure.  We want him to have time to be a kid.  He wants to be in drama.  He wants to get a job (although that may have to wait until next summer.)

 

Picking and choosing selective AP and honors classes is probably a better option for him.  

 

I was going to suggest this but didn't want to sway your opinion.

 

Some other random thoughts that may support your decision:

Kids who pick up a lot of college credit while in high school tend to find that they've gotten credit for all the easy college classes (the gen eds).  This ends up making their college course load each year harder.  Works for some kids, but not for others. 

 

Also, if they've gotten ahead in math, their first semester in college can be, um, challenging.  Sometimes to the point of not passing the first math course they take in college.  Even if they do pass, it tends to be a LOT of work.  Many high school classes just do not prepare the kids as well as they think.  Or else most high school kids just aren't ready for that.  And, yes, I am talking about kids with super high test scores who are at the tippy top of their high school class.

 

The one thing I will say in favor of the IB program is that the emphasis on writing could be very helpful.  However, as someone else pointed out above, sometimes the reason kids can't write at an earlier age is because they just have nothing yet to say.  This may be even more of an issue with the smartest kids who don't want to just repeat what they've been told.  They don't see the point of writing until they have original thoughts.  That may look like they "can't" write.

 

Drama is a very good thing for a kid to do in high school.  Being able to get up on stage and say something is really helpful later in life.  And they may not have the chance to do this later.  I suspect there's a lot of brain maturation that occurs around college age that allows students to be able to think more critically, write better, understand math better, etc.  For most people, this doesn't happen while they're in high school.  And trying to force a college curriculum onto an unmatured brain is perhaps just a waste of everyone's time (not to mention the potential for burnout).  So what do you do with smart kids while they're in high school?  Maybe focus on other things -- like drama and music.  Things of value that they may not have time for later.

 

That's my take on it anyway.  Based on the kids I've seen going through these years.

 

But all our kids are different.

[Arcadia]

This is what I suspected, but they, or at least US IB schools, should offer a conversion in their documentation.

The scope is slightly different so it is hard to do a conversion chart. However the subject teachers do have a scope and sequence comparison between the HL and the corresponding AP. For example the HL biology teacher would know what he/she need to cover as test prep for his/her students wanting to sit for the AP bio exam.

 

When it comes to foreign languages, the unofficial guidelines is that HL are for the natives and those studying in dual immersion schools since K, and SL are for children of natives and everyone else. So a german child in a non-immersion B&M school program would do better in SL.

 

As for actual time, IB is comparably to Cambridge 'A' levels which is also a two years program. I think 240 teaching hours is less than what my nephew had easily. It is closer to 240 hours per year.

 

 

Flyingiguana,

 

I do think comparing the WTM method to IB would be an inappropriate comparison unless the choice is between homeschool or B&M school.

 

Once parents and child opt for B&M school, then the choices becomes more of AP track, IB track or early college track.

[Laura Corin]

When it comes to foreign languages, the unofficial guidelines is that HL are for the natives and those studying in dual immersion schools since K, and SL are for children of natives and everyone else. So a german child in a non-immersion B&M school program would do better in SL.

 

 

I disagree on this point.  The people doing HL languages at my boys' school will have been studying the language from age 12 as a normal school subject (alongside ten or so other subjects); it's not an immersion school.

 

[Arcadia]

I disagree on this point. The people doing HL languages at my boys' school will have been studying the language from age 12 as a normal school subject (alongside ten or so other subjects); it's not an immersion school.

 

Age 12 would be 6th/7th grade? Here the public middle schools don't offer a second/foreign language typically. So a public school child going into the IB diploma program may have only two years of a foreign language as a non-native in 9th and 10th.

 

For example my neighbor's child started spanish in 9th grade with no prior spanish lessons and no one in her family knows spanish. Her public school push Spanish because they have 1/3 latino student population and plenty of teachers who can teach high school Spanish.

 

The 12 year old 7th grader in my local public school take English, Math, Life Science, history (include social studies), literature, music, art, PE. There are state exams for only English and Math. That is why the local private IB schools do better than the public IB, the students already have different foundation going in.

 

ETA:

I have three elementary school within 1 mile radius. One is failing, one is barely surviving and one is doing well because of all the afterschooling parents put in.

I think UK has assigned schools based on neighborhoods too because I did my traffic engineering thesis decades ago with case studies from UK. Here the local assigned schools show the disparity in parents income which is highly correlated to test results.

 

ETA:

There is also a local issue of public schools pushing participation rates while private schools focussing on good scores. The public schools are looking at cost cutting while the private school can raise school fees annually and still have a wait list.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Arcadia

[Laura Corin]

Age 12 would be 6th/7th grade? Here the public middle schools don't offer a second/foreign language typically. So a public school child going into the IB diploma program may have only two years of a foreign language as a non-native in 9th and 10th.

 

 

Oh, I agree that two years of language learning is definitely not enough preparation for HL languages.  I was just saying that it doesn't have to be immersion from K.  There are many people on these boards who give their children much more language exposure than two years, and I just wanted to let them know that IB HL languages were not necessarily impossible for them.

[Arcadia]

There are many people on these boards who give their children much more language exposure than two years, and I just wanted to let them know that IB HL languages were not necessarily impossible for them.

I do agree completely with you on that. Even a teen who is willing to spend the amount of time in two years (9th/10th) to catch up can do it.

 

I know the private schools have placement tests. Not sure about the public schools here who offer both AP and IB tracks in the same school. The guidance counselor to students ratio is much smaller in private schools. Parents in public school have to do their own research on college admissions.

 

ETA:

I remember reading IB scores are not normalised unlike AP scores which has scoring curves. That could make IB chinese easier to score well maybe than AP chinese. My nephew had 4HL so he could not have opt for HL chinese anyway without dropping a HL subject to SL.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Arcadia

[Mabelen]

We don't have an IB program in our district but as far as foreign language goes, all middle schools offer two years of Spanish at least. One middle school offers, in addition, 3 years of intensive Spanish which puts kids in the 3rd year when they go into high school. All high schools offer AP Spanish language. One high school also offers AP Spanish literature. All high schools offer other languages, most offer French and German up to AP level, one offers 3 years of Filipino, and another one offers 3 or 4 years of Chinese. So not all schools are going to offer the same level of preparation.

[DawnM]

Thanks guys.

 

One thing this thread has me contemplating is to think of my youngest.  He is exceptionally bright, school comes easy for him.  An IB program may be just what he needs.  He is going in to 7th grade next year.

 

But I think for my middle, entering 11th grade, this is not for him. 

 

Both kids will be new to the PS system locally.  Middle went to charter last year, and youngest was still homeschooled.

 

I think we are leaning towards Honors and/or AP for middle son in the subjects of Math, History, and Science.  I am not sure if they have honors Spanish, but he might be able to do that.  English, surprisingly, was his lowest grade this year at the charter.  It was a solid B, but not honors.  I was a little surprised.  He reads constantly.  He loves literature, etc.....but I found some gaps in his learning.  Must be his previous HS teacher (who, by the way, is a credentialed English teacher......yup, major fail!)

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by DawnM