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The results of the godly tomatoes method on kids


MegP
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Contrary kids!  I have one.  The kid that is always against anything that wasn't her idea first.  I have never "punished" her for it, but I have called her out for being "oppositional."

 

It's not the same as having their own opinion.  It's opposing, not expressing.  It gets old.  :)  Well, maybe she's destined to be a trial lawyer.

 

 

 

 

 

I had one who was certain if we didn't agree with them, we must not have understood their argument.  so the argument would be repeated.  until we said "enough.  we understand, we don't  agree."

  I used to say the same thing.  a born lawyer.  (no interest in law.)

 

I was thinking similar.  No parent is that emotionless.  A robot, maybe.

 

Reminds me of when I as a kid and I wrote a neighborhood "newspaper."  It had a Dear Rabby column with questions and answers which I pulled out of you know where ....

 

 

one very drugged out.  I lived through the 60s and 70s when valium was handed out like candy.  my mother went from volatile  to expressionless/apathetic.

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I think her kids would be excellent at lying. They are used to denying their feelings and having to lie by putting on a happy face no matter what they are really feeling inside. They have to obey and pretend they want to even when they do not want to. They likely end up being very sneaky as I described in my first post.

 

The whole thing is just heartbreaking. She has duped so many moms.

She is the ultimate teacher of lies because she sets them up to have to lie in order to survive her. I think that she is a power tripper, a narcissist so she actually does not give a fig about the relationship and only cares about unwavering obedience with kids who are terrified of her because she gets off on the adrenalin high of bullying them. She likes the power; she enjoys crushing them. My grandfather was one of these bastards. His kids grew up to hate and despise him and yet continued vying for love and approval. They were completely messed up because of him. She is one evil pup.

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She is the ultimate teacher of lies because she sets them up to have to lie in order to survive her. I think that she is a power tripper, a narcissist so she actually does not give a fig about the relationship and only cares about unwavering obedience with kids who are terrified of her because she gets off on the adrenalin high of bullying them. She likes the power; she enjoys crushing them. My grandfather was one of these bastards. His kids grew up to hate and despise him and yet continued vying for love and approval. They were completely messed up because of him. She is one evil pup.

 

she shows to whom she gives allegiance by her own actions.  the father of lies. . . . pure evil.

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Did you know that you can paddle a child out of having ADHD?

 

See, I'm a child psychologist, and *I* didn't know that, but apparently my professional education has been deficient.

 You must know my in-laws! They have been so helpful in telling us what we must do to "fix" our child.  :cursing:

 

I know they love him, and have the best of intentions, but it puts a HUGE strain on relationships all around. 

 

I wish more people could focus on relationship building, not just external behaviors. 

 

God loves us when we are less than lovely.

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 You must know my in-laws! They have been so helpful in telling us what we must do to "fix" our child.  :cursing:

 

I know they love him, and have the best of intentions, but it puts a HUGE strain on relationships all around. 

 

I wish more people could focus on relationship building, not just external behaviors. 

 

God loves us when we are less than lovely.

 

 

Perfectly said!

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I was telling DH about this thread yesterday - I had only briefly heard of RGT online (possibly here?), it's not popular where we live, and this thread was my first exposure to it... as I was telling him, he was just like 'Oh my GOSH... that's terrible.  Let's not pay attention to the kids or show them ANY love AT ALL.'  He was as appalled as I was (not that it's surprising :lol: - but he is so laid back that he rarely has ANY reaction to ANYthing lol... so for him to have a look of disgust and be like 'To parent like that is to be a jerk.  It just is.' was a major outcry from him lol.  

 

You know, I've read many parenting books, not necessarily because I was looking for 'how to' parent, but because our moms group was reading them (we started as a Bible study lol... then a select few became more interested in parenting books than Bible studies and I loved the group and so I read along) and the best books weren't the ones that were how-tos.  I enjoyed books that went into personalities and such.  We read so many, but we never did do any Ezzo or Pearl or Growing Kids God's Way (though a close friend at that time had done the 'class' or whatever it was), and I'm so glad.  I was never shy about saying 'I didn't like that this book said ________' but I've always been in the minority with that... so many people will easily just take everything written in a book as the gospel truth.  

 

I don't know what it is about me, DH, and my current friends (that moms group fell apart several years back) that we don't fall for this stuff.  I don't think we're awesome superheroes or anything, but I just don't know what it is about all of us that we don't fall for stuff hook line and sinker, but can look through and be like... no.  Some of the books I read in that moms group I literally read and refuted every. single. time we met.  I didn't try to be rude about it, and nothing was so abusive as what is described here (though Creative Correction was one that was read in our earlier days, and that has its unpleasant moments), but was like, look, I get where the author is saying this and where they're coming from with this, but I don't necessarily think that the answer is this. 

 

And I've always hated books that said that 'this way of parenting is the ONLY way to have a kid grow up well'.  That just makes me want to refute the book from day 1!!!  :lol: :lol:

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That's insane. I didn't read every word, but WHO wants to live like this? It's all such a waste of energy.

 

Dumbest thing I ever half-read.

I keep thinking about how I teach puppies and dogs to willingly hand over whatever they have. I make a game of it, we trade for other toys or a treat, there is no loss of trust or battle involved.

 

And I realized I played the same game with my son when he was little. We would hand things back and forth when it wasn't emoitionalky charged, or I would offer something of higher value.

 

If he was so wound up over an object I would have assumed it was nap time, or he needed food.

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You know what I really don't get?  

 

Sorry, I keep coming back to this lol.

 

 

The idea of giving a little kid something to play with only to turn around minutes later and demand it back.  And then beat them til they return it (basically).  

Just because.  Because kids should blindly do anything a parent tells them to, even if there is NO reason for it WHATSOEVER.

 

 

It just floors me.  I think of actual times that something needs to be taken from a little kid - they picked up something they shouldn't have, older sibling forgot to put the scissors away, they decided to eat dog food, whatever - and even THEN I wouldn't do it in such a harsh manner.  If it's something dangerous that I have to take from them and they're upset about it, we redirect the attention to something else cool and fun that they CAN play with!!  

 

Good grief.

 

 

Sorry.  I just ... can't even with this 'parenting advice'. 

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You know what I really don't get?

 

Sorry, I keep coming back to this lol.

 

 

The idea of giving a little kid something to play with only to turn around minutes later and demand it back. And then beat them til they return it (basically).

Just because. Because kids should blindly do anything a parent tells them to, even if there is NO reason for it WHATSOEVER.

 

 

It just floors me. I think of actual times that something needs to be taken from a little kid - they picked up something they shouldn't have, older sibling forgot to put the scissors away, they decided to eat dog food, whatever - and even THEN I wouldn't do it in such a harsh manner. If it's something dangerous that I have to take from them and they're upset about it, we redirect the attention to something else cool and fun that they CAN play with!!

 

Good grief.

 

 

Sorry. I just ... can't even with this 'parenting advice'.

Exactly!

 

And because I rarely just took stuff from him, when I did have to for safety reasons, he was much more willing to cooperate.

Edited by jeninok
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Did you know that you can paddle a child out of having ADHD?

 

See, I'm a child psychologist, and *I* didn't know that, but apparently my professional education has been deficient.

That is so nauseating.

 

But hey! Now I know what happened to DH! He's 52 and he still doesn't sit still. ;)

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Yeah, when I start thinking in a tone like that lady talks (the "me against their will" tone), I tell myself, "be the adult!"

 

I mean, I am not perfect, not by a long shot.  I let stress spill over into my interactions with my kids.  I've been an actual a$$hole a few times.  But I didn't go write a book about how every other mom needs to do that too.  :P

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The other problem with the tomatoes method is that if the kids do not respond like the author says they should, then the mom feels like a failure. For example if your child lies "post toddler"-

 

"A few of my toddlers tried lying once or twice, but that's it. Out of ten children, I only recall one or two instances where a post-toddler lied to me. Why? Are my children special? No, not at all. It is because from the outset I hated lying, watched carefully for it, nipped it in the bud, and communicated my beliefs to the offenders about the subject. I taught them to hate it too." Link--http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch14.php

 

Or if your teen rebels...it must be your fauilt as a parent. She said this in an earlier version of her website-

https://web.archive.org/web/20050518235948/http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/

 

"Secondly, I was terrified that some or all of my children might grow up to be rebellious and/or unbelievers. I didn't know how I could live with that. I'd rather not have kids. I figured I'd already taken a chance by having the ones I had, and I wasn't sure I wanted to tempt fate further. I didn't think it was enough to just say I was "doing my best and trusting God with the rest." I'd seen way too many other Christians do that and end up with teens on drugs, and pregnant, and hating God, and certainly hating their parents.

 

Then two things happened. First, we discovered homeschooling. That gave me great hope that maybe I wouldn't have to shove my kids out into the world away from my guidance and protection at age 5. Maybe I could keep them from peer pressure and negative influences for at least a little while longer, and maybe that would allow us to stay "close" to them for a while longer too. I really, really wanted to stay close to my kids. I remember a neighbor casually commenting to me one day, "Oh, you lose them when they go to school." WHAT?! I did not want to lose my kids. Homeschooling gave me hope that this might not have to happen.

 

Secondly, (and this was the biggie) we started fellowshipping with a slightly older couple who knew how to discipline in a godly way that worked! Their kids had grown from babyhood and toddler age, past early childhood and into and through the teen years with no temper tantrums, no terrible twos, teenaged rebellion, no raging hormones, no drug problems, no promiscuity, no anything awful. How could that be? They even loved God and their parents. Gasp!

As we began to ask for and follow this couple's parenting advice, we very quickly realized that we really could raise godly children who would not go astray! God does give us a plan for doing so, we don't have to just roll the dice. Suddenly we had hope and confidence for the future. "

The bolded - this is the crux of the whole thing. It is why this appeals to some people. Being "terrified" for your children's futures is not a good starting point. Fear is the opposite of love. "perfect Love casts out fear." Your child won't love you if your motive is feat. You won't love your child properly if fear is your #1 motivator.

 

I would even suggest that fear is not a good reason to homeschool. It is a far better thing to do something because you are aiming *towards* a positive, then *away from* a negative.

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Did you know that you can paddle a child out of having ADHD?

 

See, I'm a child psychologist, and *I* didn't know that, but apparently my professional education has been deficient.

 

I've found that my very active child retains information much better if I let her do handstands while I'm reading to her. If I put a paddle between us (and used it!) while schooling, she'd be so focused on the paddle that I'd be wasting my time. This is ridiculous advice. 

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I've found that my very active child retains information much better if I let her do handstands while I'm reading to her. If I put a paddle between us (and used it!) while schooling, she'd be so focused on the paddle that I'd be wasting my time. This is ridiculous advice.

I was thinking the same thing. How does one learn while constantly thinking "sit still, sit still, sit still..."?

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I've found that my very active child retains information much better if I let her do handstands while I'm reading to her. If I put a paddle between us (and used it!) while schooling, she'd be so focused on the paddle that I'd be wasting my time. This is ridiculous advice.

And the sheer nervousness that would result from the paddle would cause many people, adults included to fidget even more.

 

And here's my issue.

What if my husband stood in the kitchen brandishing a weapon as a threat of punishment while I cooked dinner?

Maybe I was prone to burning it, or clumsy and had cut myself, or he just didn't like what I made.

 

We would immediately recognize this as abuse.

 

But a helpless child with no power to leave, or require counseling, or defend themselves and it somehow becomes godly parenting.

Edited by jeninok
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And the sheer nervousness that would result from the paddle would cause many people, adults included to fidget even more.

 

And here's my issue.

What if my husband stood in the kitchen brandishing a weapon as a threat of punishment while I cooked dinner?

Maybe I was prone to burning it, or clumsy and had cut myself, or he just didn't like what I made.

 

We would immediately recognize this as abuse.

 

But a helpless child with no power to leave, or require counseling, or defend themselves and it somehow becomes godly parenting.

 

Actually I think it could be considered child abuse in some jurisdictions.

 

This isn't your common everyday spanking, which is totally legal in the USA.  This is mental torture, if it is carried out repeatedly.

 

I know someone who had a battle of wills with her tot over staying in bed at nap time.  She was in a camp cabin and everyone could hear everything, but she didn't know that then.  She went in there calmly every 5 minutes and administered the promised number of swats.  (Kid never did go to sleep.)  Some of the neighbors reported her to the camp leader, who investigated and counseled her.  This kind of behavior is just disturbing even if the physical aspect of it isn't abuse.

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And the sheer nervousness that would result from the paddle would cause many people, adults included to fidget even more.

 

And here's my issue.

What if my husband stood in the kitchen brandishing a weapon as a threat of punishment while I cooked dinner?

Maybe I was prone to burning it, or clumsy and had cut myself, or he just didn't like what I made.

 

We would immediately recognize this as abuse.

 

But a helpless child with no power to leave, or require counseling, or defend themselves and it somehow becomes godly parenting.

Staggers the imagination, doesn't it!

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Actually I think it could be considered child abuse in some jurisdictions.

 

This isn't your common everyday spanking, which is totally legal in the USA.  This is mental torture, if it is carried out repeatedly.

 

I know someone who had a battle of wills with her tot over staying in bed at nap time.  She was in a camp cabin and everyone could hear everything, but she didn't know that then.  She went in there calmly every 5 minutes and administered the promised number of swats.  (Kid never did go to sleep.)  Some of the neighbors reported her to the camp leader, who investigated and counseled her.  This kind of behavior is just disturbing even if the physical aspect of it isn't abuse.

And it didn't work! A good definition of parental crazy is doing the same thing over and over and over again ad nauseum and hoping for a different result. Exactly how much "data" does that parent need to collect in order to figure out that the method is ineffective?

 

Sometimes I really do wonder what goes on in other peoples' brains.

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And it didn't work! A good definition of parental crazy is doing the same thing over and over and over again ad nauseum and hoping for a different result. Exactly how much "data" does that parent need to collect in order to figure out that the method is ineffective?

 

Sometimes I really do wonder what goes on in other peoples' brains.

 

Well this is what happens when we get so religious about "be consistent."  If you just prove to the child that you really mean what you say, eventually the child will comply.  It completely ignores the fact that the child has a mind too, which in some cases is saying the exact same thing!  Strong personalities don't stay dormant until age 18, they are there at birth.  :)

 

It also ignores the fact that scaring the crap out of your kids will make it harder for them to do what you want - especially "settle down," "go to sleep," "tell me what you're feeling" etc.  The person I mentioned above has had issues with kids wetting themselves while the parent is yelling at them to go to the toilet.   And again, this happens repeatedly.  I could understand one stressful time when you freaked out and all it got you was a puddle of pee to clean up.  But learn your lesson!  I don't understand it.

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Well this is what happens when we get so religious about "be consistent."  If you just prove to the child that you really mean what you say, eventually the child will comply.  It completely ignores the fact that the child has a mind too, which in some cases is saying the exact same thing!  Strong personalities don't stay dormant until age 18, they are there at birth.  :)

 

It also ignores the fact that scaring the crap out of your kids will make it harder for them to do what you want - especially "settle down," "go to sleep," "tell me what you're feeling" etc.  The person I mentioned above has had issues with kids wetting themselves while the parent is yelling at them to go to the toilet.   And again, this happens repeatedly.  I could understand one stressful time when you freaked out and all it got you was a puddle of pee to clean up.  But learn your lesson!  I don't understand it.

A agree completely.

 

Fear is just about the worst motivator on earth if one is looking for a good outcome. I mean, hey, if you are the gunman at the bank, fear is going to work in your favor, but then again, you don't hope to have a favorable relationship with the bank or the people inside post extracting their obedience. 

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The idea of 'winning' in some kind of battle of the wills between a grown woman and a small child is appalling.

Once you go there you have lost already. I find its better to set things up so you are in charge, but give choices within parameters. So to a three year old you say "do you want to leave now, or in 5 minutes," either if which is okay with you, not, "when do you want to leave? ". Of course the answer may be "never" which is when you say, okay, when we leave you can walk or I'll carry you, and move on with life accordingly. It's the attempt to bargain with terrorist toddlers that makes me insane because you will NEVER win or get agreement (at least not with mine!). I well remember carrying the 1 yo and the 4 yo out, one under each arm, both pitching fits, neither of whom would cooperate. But, in general, they learned that when its time to go its time to go. I think there is a happy medium, which I strive to achieve, between being a doormat and letting the kids run the house, and raising kids who are blindly obedient no matter what.

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Oh my word. A child may not be sad publicly. They may not have privacy. They must be forced to share their innermost thoughts and feelings are be in trouble, because they need to learn that Mom & Dad will be cruel to them until they tell them their secrets. And then once they tell their secrets they must be prepared to be punished for them if they're out of line. Because after all the CHILD is arrogant for wanting to feel sad and have space. Holy moly, I don't even... that breaks my heart. TELL ME WHAT'S WRONG AND TRUST ME WITH YOUR INNERMOST THOUGHTS OR I WILL HURT YOU sure seems like *fantastic* parenting, and a great precedent to set for future relationships! [/sarc]

 

Put that together with the "tomato staking" concept and it gets even creepier. "Usually my younger children are all within eyesight and earshot of me in the same room, even if they are behaving well. Right now, my five youngest, preschoolers to preteens, are just around the corner from me. I know exactly what they are doing, and I can clearly hear them talking and interacting." "In this kind of staking, you do NOT send children to the bedroom to play where you can't see or hear them, relying on occasional checks to monitor behavior. When they are outside, you are with them, or able to see and hear them. You do not pack them off to the neighbors or elsewhere for an hour or two to play without your personal supervision. You do not sign them up for group activities that do not include your parental participation."

 

So the child is not allowed to be sad in front of mom without explaining AND the child is not allowed to go off and be sad in her own room or outside. Children should be constantly under the eye of the parent and also constantly held accountable for having only approved thoughts and feelings.

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Put that together with the "tomato staking" concept and it gets even creepier. "Usually my younger children are all within eyesight and earshot of me in the same room, even if they are behaving well. Right now, my five youngest, preschoolers to preteens, are just around the corner from me. I know exactly what they are doing, and I can clearly hear them talking and interacting." "In this kind of staking, you do NOT send children to the bedroom to play where you can't see or hear them, relying on occasional checks to monitor behavior. When they are outside, you are with them, or able to see and hear them. You do not pack them off to the neighbors or elsewhere for an hour or two to play without your personal supervision. You do not sign them up for group activities that do not include your parental participation."

 

So the child is not allowed to be sad in front of mom without explaining AND the child is not allowed to go off and be sad in her own room or outside. Children should be constantly under the eye of the parent and also constantly held accountable for having only approved thoughts and feelings.

 

And even teens have to stay where mom can "know exactly what they are doing, and can clearly hear them talking and interacting." And even teens cannot do any group activities without "parental participation." So that means no sports, no movies with friends, no hiking with a group, no youth group, no social contact with peers where the peers are not pre-approved and the activity supervised.  I cannot imagine this kind of helicopter parenting for teens!!!    

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I'm about as anti-smacking as you can get, but I recognize that for many families who smack, it's a single smack that is intended to amplify the verbal message. I may have my own opinion about the utility of it but it is of a different order to this. 

 

This idea that continual hitting - "a hard swat" - of a child over a period of hours is godly and not abuse ? Not buying it. Combined with the emotional abuse, it's a very toxic brew. 

Yes, and when she uses this phrase, "I mean business spanking", it infers something very disturbing. It is a spanking in which the child is meant to incur long, sustained pain with the understanding that mom or dad is bigger than you, stronger than you, and can break you. 

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Yes...and don't forget ambushing...as described here-to a BABY-

 

"Making it Stick
After attempting to follow my early obedience instructions, moms frequently complain to me that the training doesn�t seem to be lasting. They have do it over and over again. Here�s an example, along with an answer from me:

Calandra: I can tell my crawler "no" when she reaches for my plants and she will stop and crawl away from them, but the minute I turn my back or step out of the room, she's back trying to touch them again. Does she understand what I mean? When is this training going to "stick"?

Elizabeth: Since she goes for the plant only when you are not looking, I'd say she understands exactly what you mean - that the plant is off limits. The way you described her reaction to your "no," suggests you have trained her well so far. She clearly knows she must submit to you. Although she's learned she must obey when you are present, she still believes she can get away with disobeying when you are not right there watching. God gave little ones lots of natural curiosity and determination of spirit and they will indeed, test you over and over again. That�s what babies do. Eventually, if you persevere in catching her in the act and correcting her, she will understand that she must obey, whether you are around or not.

A little �ambushing� is usually very helpful in getting the message across, that she must obey you even when she can�t see you. Try this: leave her in a tempting situation (perhaps near the plant), then let her think you are away (go around the corner or someplace close by, but where she can't see you). Then watch her closely without her being aware. If she crawls toward the plant, wait until she decides to try to touch it, and be there to give her a sharp "No!" possibly accompanied by a little surprise swat on the bottom, just as she reaches for it.

Surprise is the key. It's the startle factor that provides that little bit of extra motivation needed to make a rule �stick� in your child�s mind. A little ambushing teaches her two things: 1. that Mom is most likely watching even when she doesn�t seem to be, and 2. that a child must always obey, whether or not she can see mom. If you are having �sticking� problems, be alert for opportunities to "ambush." Remember this: Watch, Ambush, Repeat! "

 

link--http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch04.php

 

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Rivka, not only is it rather sociopathic and creepy to tomato stake children in such a manner as the entire parental philosophy of child rearing but it is damaging because the child never learns how to be alone or how to interact with anyone, every aspect is artificially engineered by mother.

 

Then what? They become adults, have to get a job, have to go to school, have to go to the doctor and the doc says mom has to stay in the waiting room, have to....and they have no skills for speaking up for themselves, thinking for themselves, and never develop any intuition for conversation because the environment they've been raised in is entirely artificial, practically as fake as The Truman Show. Any mother who thinks her children do not ever deserve privacy is kind of a creepy mom. Really. 

 

Home is supposed to be the safe place where you learn some skills, learn how to be alone and with people, learn to deal with other people in a healthy manner. It isn't supposed to be like life inside KGB headquarters.

 

And as parents, sometimes our kids need to complain about us to each other. We have a hard job and sometimes we have to make unpopular decisions. Its okay for them to vent a little. Home should be the safe place to do that. Fearing the stay at home parent that way, knowing that every word is listened to, recorded, and held against you...sigh...better read them their miranda rights when they are born because home functions like the interrogation room of the local jail.

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Fearing the stay at home parent that way, knowing that every word is listened to, recorded, and held against you...sigh...better read them their miranda rights when they are born because home functions like the interrogation room of the local jail.

 

What parent would want this to be their relationship to their child?

 

Does such a parent believe that this is God's relationship to us? That doesn't seem to fit into any of the Christian theologies with which I am familiar, but if the importance of the child submitting to a parent lies in said child learning by analogy to submit to God (as I have heard some explain) then it seems we are to assume this is how God relates to us.

 

The whole thing baffles me. I suspect underlying anxiety and associated desire for control are motivating factors for many parents who are drawn to such tactics.

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In my childhood, I think it was pretty normal to be taught that some emotions are outright wrong. At least I felt "wrong" when I had those emotions.

 

There is some truth to the idea that outward cheerfulness can promote inward cheerfulness. It's a tactic used by some adults.

 

Like every other parenting idea, this is going to work with some kids and not with others. Those who have kids who respond well to that will tout it. The rest of us will scoff at it.

 

I'm more curious about how our culture became so willing to parent based on any book written by a stranger, especially when it conflicts with one's own instinct and experiences. We trust some person who never met us or our kids, and doesn't actually care if we live or die, over people who would die for our kids. Strange.

To be honest I'm not a huge fan of this culture that expects adults to act happy and grateful no matter what's happening to them.

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Contrary kids! I have one. The kid that is always against anything that wasn't her idea first. I have never "punished" her for it, but I have called her out for being "oppositional."

 

It's not the same as having their own opinion. It's opposing, not expressing. It gets old. :) Well, maybe she's destined to be a trial lawyer.

 

 

 

If I were to write a parenting book (which I'm sure nobody would read), I'd probably say most of what you do doesn't matter, so don't try too hard. ;) But then, I'm probably raising ungodly children ....

I agree they have their dumb days. Kids aren't angels anymore than parents. However when my kids are having a day like that it seems best to ignore and figure they need an early night. The more you pay attention to this stuff the more they do it.

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I cant stand it and purposely distance myself from those people. It comes across as so manufactured.

 

I wonder though can you tell if it is forced or natural?

 

I've had people tell me it is impossible to be happy as much of the time as I am, but that is just my temperament and has been my whole life. I figure whatever the neurotransmitter and whatnot profile is that inclines people towards depression I apparently got the opposite of. I'm calm and cheerful as a rule, and it is not fake or manufactured at all. Me getting frustrated at my kids happens once in a blue moon, and it takes either a pretty major stressor or, well, hormonal fluctuations  :laugh: to make me cry. That happens a couple of times a year, maybe less if I'm breastfeeding. I really do live life inside of a sort of contented cloud most of the time.

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What parent would want this to be their relationship to their child?

 

Does such a parent believe that this is God's relationship to us? That doesn't seem to fit into any of the Christian theologies with which I am familiar, but if the importance of the child submitting to a parent lies in said child learning by analogy to submit to God (as I have heard some explain) then it seems we are to assume this is how God relates to us.

 

The whole thing baffles me. I suspect underlying anxiety and associated desire for control are motivating factors for many parents who are drawn to such tactics.

 

 

I would venture yes to the bolded, even though it doesn't fit into theology as I understand it either. You believe what you've been taught unless you've taken pains to do some research yourself. 

 

I know one young woman in our church who behaves like a Duggar kid. Always sweet and smiling, happy to help, obedient, etc. I have always wondered if she was really like that or if it was an act. Our church doesn't support and of these parenting methods but that doesn't mean her parents didn't pick it up somewhere else. I might be wrong! She might be naturally saccharine! But I wonder.. 

 

We did know some families who did the Growing Kids God's Way curriculum and loved it. All I remember from talking to them was that they put notes in the kids' lunch boxes. It didn't sound like this at all. Are there two with similar names? 

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I wonder though can you tell if it is forced or natural?

 

I've had people tell me it is impossible to be happy as much of the time as I am, but that is just my temperament and has been my whole life. I figure whatever the neurotransmitter and whatnot profile is that inclines people towards depression I apparently got the opposite of. I'm calm and cheerful as a rule, and it is not fake or manufactured at all. Me getting frustrated at my kids happens once in a blue moon, and it takes either a pretty major stressor or, well, hormonal fluctuations :laugh: to make me cry. That happens a couple of times a year, maybe less if I'm breastfeeding. I really do live life inside of a sort of contented cloud most of the time.

Idk. I think it's obvious to me, the ones that aren't genuine. I don't think you can fake true joy. i know several people who are truly joyful much more than the average person. But I also know lots of people who are forcing it and I'm not buying it.

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Since she goes for the plant only when you are not looking, I'd say she understands exactly what you mean - that the plant is off limits.

 

It's not that she's a baby and has poor impulse control, it's not that she is a baby and has poor short-term memory, it's not that she's just learning - nope, everything your child does from babyhood on has to be viewed through the warped lens of obedience/defiance.

 

It's absolutely sick, and there are people who can't see it.

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"You do not sign them up for group activities that do not include your parental participation."

 

Yeah, probably so they don't have an opportunity to seek help from other adults.

 

Not needing to be afraid of what my sons might tell their piano instructor or track coaches about my parenting it doesn't scare me to expose my kids to outside resources. Or to get in my own workout while they take gym class at the Y. Or sit in the car and nap or read while they are in music lessons.

 

She's describing the precautions of someone who knows she could get caught should her child ever have a close relationship with a coach or instructor or friend's parent.

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It's not that she's a baby and has poor impulse control, it's not that she is a baby and has poor short-term memory, it's not that she's just learning - nope, everything your child does from babyhood on has to be viewed through the warped lens of obedience/defiance.

 

 

No. Kidding.

 

I have a fun memory of one of mine who liked to get into the potted plants and eat the dirt. I would wag my finger at him and say no-no! and pull him away; pretty soon he would go over to the plants, stop, look at me, wag his finger and say no-no, then reach in for a handful of dirt  :lol:

 

I figured he thought that "no-no" was a label for the pots.

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Yeah, when I start thinking in a tone like that lady talks (the "me against their will" tone), I tell myself, "be the adult!"

 

I mean, I am not perfect, not by a long shot.  I let stress spill over into my interactions with my kids.  I've been an actual a$$hole a few times.  But I didn't go write a book about how every other mom needs to do that too.  :p

 

I repeatedly would ask her if she was a child or an adult. (expecting her to say she was the adult - so I could respond she needed to act like one.).  she would respond, "i'm an old lady".  iow: as far as she was concerned, she could do whatever the heck she wanted and tough to anyone who objected. (any and all were expected to acquiesce.)

 

I've found that my very active child retains information much better if I let her do handstands while I'm reading to her. If I put a paddle between us (and used it!) while schooling, she'd be so focused on the paddle that I'd be wasting my time. This is ridiculous advice. 

 

dudeling . . . I've never had a kid who hated being read to. he simply couldn't sit still, had no interest.  I finally just started reading.  occasionally, he'd come look at the pictures, then go back to doing something else.  playing with lego, drawing, etc.  it actually enabled him  to listen to what I was reading. he could be completely engrossed in whatever  his creation was - and he'd stop me and ask me very detailed and in-depth questions about what I'd just read.  (more detailed than other kids his age, even the ones who looked like they were paying close attention.) he gave every appearance of not paying attention - but he was paying very close attention.  he really needed to keep his hands busy.

 

I wonder though can you tell if it is forced or natural?

 

I've had people tell me it is impossible to be happy as much of the time as I am, but that is just my temperament and has been my whole life. I figure whatever the neurotransmitter and whatnot profile is that inclines people towards depression I apparently got the opposite of. I'm calm and cheerful as a rule, and it is not fake or manufactured at all. Me getting frustrated at my kids happens once in a blue moon, and it takes either a pretty major stressor or, well, hormonal fluctuations  :laugh: to make me cry. That happens a couple of times a year, maybe less if I'm breastfeeding. I really do live life inside of a sort of contented cloud most of the time.

 

I know people who are happy and cheerful most of the time - that's their personality.  I've also known people (one in particular), whose "cheerfulness" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.

 

No. Kidding.

 

I have a fun memory of one of mine who liked to get into the potted plants and eat the dirt. I would wag my finger at him and say no-no! and pull him away; pretty soon he would go over to the plants, stop, look at me, wag his finger and say no-no, then reach in for a handful of dirt  :lol:

 

I figured he thought that "no-no" was a label for the pots.

 

2dd would dive face first into our "sandbox" (really a very sandy patch they played in next to the house.) - with her mouth wide open.  over and over and over.  I'd haul her to the bathroom to clean out her mouth, and she'd go do it again.  didn't matter how many times I told her it was yucky, or had to rinse out her mouth. . . . . thunk.  she claims that's why she doesn't have allergies.

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You know what I really don't get?  

 

Sorry, I keep coming back to this lol.

 

 

The idea of giving a little kid something to play with only to turn around minutes later and demand it back.  And then beat them til they return it (basically).  

Just because.  Because kids should blindly do anything a parent tells them to, even if there is NO reason for it WHATSOEVER

 

This, minus the beating, was part of ds' autism assessment. 

 

Try to force small child to play with poor quality toy, then, when he finally decides to humour you, take it away and diagnose him with autism for being irritated.

 

 

Btw, "paddle" seems an awfully cute way of saying "hit child with a cricket bat." :ack2:

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This, minus the beating, was part of ds' autism assessment.

 

Try to force small child to play with poor quality toy, then, when he finally decides to humour you, take it away and diagnose him with autism for being irritated.

 

 

Btw, "paddle" seems an awfully cute way of saying "hit child with a cricket bat." :ack2:

😠 Reminds me of one of my well child checks. The lady decided my ds had trouble following instructions and understanding speech. But English was her second language and I had a bit of difficulty understanding too. He had no trouble following the same instructions from me or my sister.

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We did know some families who did the Growing Kids God's Way curriculum and loved it. All I remember from talking to them was that they put notes in the kids' lunch boxes. It didn't sound like this at all. Are there two with similar names? 

Growing Kids God's Way is the "Christian" version of Ezzo.  I think it's geared toward a class setting but I may not be remembering that part correctly.  

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This, minus the beating, was part of ds' autism assessment.

 

Try to force small child to play with poor quality toy, then, when he finally decides to humour you, take it away and diagnose him with autism for being irritated.

 

 

Btw, "paddle" seems an awfully cute way of saying "hit child with a cricket bat." :ack2:

Yup. The words chosen are always meaningful. If you doubt that, just have a conversation with a seriously pro-spanker and use the word "hit" or "beat" instead of "spank." They will cling to the words "spank, swat" because those words minimize the reality.

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I agree they have their dumb days. Kids aren't angels anymore than parents. However when my kids are having a day like that it seems best to ignore and figure they need an early night. The more you pay attention to this stuff the more they do it.

And so much of it is making mountains out of molehills. Seriously, save the energy for the truly important issues.

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I need to stay away from this thread at this point. 

 

I just wanted to say one thing, even though I suppose I'm a sociopathic monster for finding anything redeeming in the RGT book according to the things people have said here. 

 

In terms of beating vs. spanking, personally I think that when we say a swat on the butt to get a child's attention is the same as a rage-filled adult hauling off and closed-fist beating a child is the same thing, then we end up making light of real abuse. But then again I see that people think light swats are abuse, or will 100% lead to viscous beating so I don't know what to say. I'm out of here. 

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I wonder though can you tell if it is forced or natural?

 

I've had people tell me it is impossible to be happy as much of the time as I am, but that is just my temperament and has been my whole life. I figure whatever the neurotransmitter and whatnot profile is that inclines people towards depression I apparently got the opposite of. I'm calm and cheerful as a rule, and it is not fake or manufactured at all. Me getting frustrated at my kids happens once in a blue moon, and it takes either a pretty major stressor or, well, hormonal fluctuations  :laugh: to make me cry. That happens a couple of times a year, maybe less if I'm breastfeeding. I really do live life inside of a sort of contented cloud most of the time.

I think the difference though tends to be intuitively apparent to a lot of people. I know and am around people who are generally just happy go lucky. One of my husband's good friends is like that. The is just simply content and joyful, his laugh is infectious. But its totally genuine, if are around him for very long you can tell. I have a couple of friends like that as well.

 

But take that pastor's wife that I mentioned. She is incessantly "happy" in that nothing ever wipes that weird zombielike smile off her face, and she never, ever admits that anything is ever hard in life, and yet she is living a nightmare. Her eyes are dull, her shoulders are limp, everything about her in every other respect screams "I am not okay", but that obedient, submissive smile never leaves her face, and if you ask you will always hear, "I am wonderful. God is good to us." People aren't fooled. I don't know anyone who isn't profoundly concerned about her mental state. However, no one knows what to do about it. She and her husband went to this itty bitty, crazy legalistic bible college that taught them that acknowledging anything bad, anything negative in your life is sin. Just plain out sin. About the only thing they are "allowed" to do is cry at funerals. That's it. Otherwise slap your fake smile on your face, and zombie your way through life so god doesn't smite you and send you to hell.

 

This is what RGT reminds me of, however I think that many people can tell when the contentment and general happiness is real and when it is faked by a hurting person, at least if you get to know that person well. If you don't get to know people, if you are nothing more than the here and there acquaintance, then there is no point in having an opinion because you really don't know the person.

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You know, one thing I was thinking about is the fact that the parent's perspective/interpretation of what kids are doing vs. What they should do has a tremendous influence on how they interact with their child. Here's a story:

 

When my second child was born, my mom stayed with me for about a week. I remember one day, I was nursing the baby and it was about time for DD, then 2.5, to take a nap. I must have mentioned this, and my mom responded like Militant Grammy. She snapped at DD someting like, "Time for a Nap!" And apparently meant for DD to leap to "obey" and trot off to bed. When this did not instantly happen, my mom plucked her off the floor and marched her up the stairs. dD, naturally, started to cry. (She was probably thinking, "why is Grammy acting so mean all the sudden? What did I do wrong?") I don't remember exactly how it went after that; i.e., I don't remember if DD did take a nap, but with crying or if I intervened; it was too long ago and I forget. I just remember my mom had this "make her obey" triumphant look on her face - the one I remember well from childhood - and I was thinking what was the purpose of all this unhappiness?

 

I never had any issue (by my perspective) putting DD down for a nap. But I also had a procedure that required some effort and lead-in. However, it never bothered me that I would need to invest some parenting time putting toddlers down for a nap. So, normally, I would first of all give notice that a nap is on the agenda coming soon. Then, we would go read a story and/or listen to some music or audiobooks. Then, DD would take a nap, initially listening to music. From my perspective, there was never any "battle" that had to be won. I didn't expect to order a toddler to go to bed and expect him or her to instantly march to the bedroom and go to sleep. But my mom probably thought she really ran a tight ship. *rolleyes*

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I need to stay away from this thread at this point. 

 

I just wanted to say one thing, even though I suppose I'm a sociopathic monster for finding anything redeeming in the RGT book according to the things people have said here. 

 

In terms of beating vs. spanking, personally I think that when we say a swat on the butt to get a child's attention is the same as a rage-filled adult hauling off and closed-fist beating a child is the same thing, then we end up making light of real abuse. But then again I see that people think light swats are abuse, or will 100% lead to viscous beating so I don't know what to say. I'm out of here. 

 

What has been described here is not an occasional swat, but a system of using physical punishment to scare a child into doing exactly what we want always.  Often times the advice is to set the kid up for failure and slap behaviors out of them that in a lot of cases are completely normal or cannot be controlled.

 

Whether that is controlled or in a moment of anger, I hardly see the difference.  In fact I can WAY more understand doing it out of anger.  I cannot hit people if I am not angry because that's just not how I do things.

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