s/o Level of High School, Community College and University Courses

[Sebastian (a lady)]

In a recent thread about dual enrollment, the topic of level of difficulty of high school vs community college vs university courses came up.  Some posters mentioned being told that or experiencing that their college courses were just repeats of what they had done in high school.

 

Like a lot of things related to high school and college coursework, this probably depends a lot on the specific situation.

 

It is also worth mentioning that there can be a lot of variety in coursework even at one school.

 

Just as an example, the chemistry offerings at our CC include:

 

CHEM 100 Chemistry and Society.  A non-mathematical descriptive overview designed to give the non-science major a basic understanding of chemistry, particularly as it relates to problems of society and the environment. The course includes topics such as atomic structure, chemical bonding, nuclear power and energy sources, air and water pollution, pesticides, drugs, plastics, soaps and detergents, and nutrition. (3 hrs. lect. per week) There is a co-requisite lab course.

No Math prerequisite.

 

CHEM 105 Environmental Chemistry.  Introductory chemistry course covering basic and applied chemistry necessary for understanding toxicological and environmental effects of chemicals. Coordinated lecture and laboratory activities in basic chemistry, hazardous materials, applied biochemistry, and environmental chemistry. (3 hrs. lect.; 3 hrs. lab. per week) 

Math prerequisite is Elementary Algebra or Technical Math (ie, well below even Algebra II)

 

CHEM 151 Elementary Survey of Chemistry.  Intended to provide the beginning student with a non-rigorous, but adequate, background in the fundamentals of chemistry. Suitable for students preparing for training in the life sciences and for those seeking a practical approach to chemistry. (3 hrs. lect. per week) There is a co-requisite lab course.

Math prerequisite is completion of Elementary Algebra or qualification for College Algebra (an Algebra II equivalent at this school.  College Algebra here is not precalculus.)

 

CHEM 161 General Chemistry I.  Basic principles of chemistry including stoichiometry. Introduction to solution phase chemistry. Gas phase chemistry. Introduction to thermodynamics, including enthalpies of formation and reaction. Introduction to atomic structure, periodic trends, chemical bonding, molecular structure. (3 hrs. lect. per week) There is a co-requisite lab course.  

Math prerequisite is placement in the first semester PreCalc course.

 

CHEM 162 General Chemistry II.  (Continuation of CHEM 161) Liquids and solids. Solutions and colligative properties. Continuation of thermodynamics, including entropy and free energy. Principles and applications of chemical equilibrium, including acid-base chemistry (titrations, buffers). Kinetics. Redox reactions and electrochemistry.   There is a co-requisite lab course.

Prerequisites are completion of CHEM 161 and placement into the second semester of Pre-Calculus.

 

(There is also a Chemistry for cosmetology students which I'm not including because the content is so specific to that application.)

 

 

Now obviously, enrollment in any of the above courses would be taking chemistry at the community college.  But in my mind, the CHEM 161 and 162 are clearly college level, the CHEM 151 might be held to be college level and the CHEM 100 and 105 are much less demanding courses.  

 

For transfer credit into the local university (all the state unis and CC's are part of the same system), CHEM 161 is the lowest requirement for a BA in Chemistry or Biochemistry as well as any of the Natural Science degrees (botany, biology, marine biology, microbiology, etc) even for a BA.  So a student might get transfer credit for a lower CC chemistry course, but not have it apply to Natural Sciences degree requirements.

 

 

The statement that the first two years of college are a review really, really depend on the circumstance.  I had a strong non-AP chemistry high school course.  I had been exposed to labs and chemistry concepts before my college classes, but certainly had higher demands on pace and detail as well as a better equipped lab in college.  

 

I was very well prepared for my English college classes by my excellent English high school courses.  But high school often had us reading plays in class as group readings, where college expected us to show up Monday having read the whole work.  It was not uncommon to have a new 300-500 page novel each week in each college course.  My creative writing course expected several pages of new output each class period.  (ex, by the end of the class we were bring in a short story or several poems each class.)  I wasn't necessarily learning about new poetic devices or new rhetorical devices, but I was expected to read a lot and write analysis of what I read much more frequently.  The paper that was my high school capstone assignment (7 pages on The Brothers Karamazov) was a middling assignment for my college classes.

 

Having said that, the ENG 100 Composition course ds took last year was a disappointment.  His classmates were not proficient writers and the instructor seemed to spend a lot of time on general grammar and sentence construction rather than higher level topics.  This is a CC in an area with low level English skills among a lot of the population, many of which are English Language Learners or who live in homes with non-native or non-standard English speakers.

[regentrude]

Having said that, the ENG 100 Composition course ds took last year was a disappointment.  His classmates were not proficient writers and the instructor seemed to spend a lot of time on general grammar and sentence construction rather than higher level topics.  This is a CC in an area with low level English skills among a lot of the population, many of which are English Language Learners or who live in homes with non-native or non-standard English speakers.

 

The English Composition classes are notorious for focusing on grammar and language mechanics. This is where weaknesses can be addressed and basically a way to ensure basic writing skills. It is usually a required course for all majors (strong students get out via AP credit) and has to catch a mix of interests and abilities.

Like all foundational introductory courses, it can be thankless to teach because the instructor deals with students who don't want to be there, don't see how it is relevant for their majors, and are in the beginning of their college time. I do not think your experience is limited to the demographics; I hear complaints from my colleagues who teach this course. 

Btw, similar issues exist in lower level math classes.

 

Generally, there are huge variations between course difficulty within one college and between different colleges. The College Physics course we offer is a solid high school level and comparable to the 10th grade physics back home. The calculus based course for engineering and science majors is harder, but still very easy compared to DD's honors freshman physics course at her school which covered more material at faster pace in greater depth and had homework our grad students are unable to solve.

Literature courses - same thing. My friends who teach at our English department say they would not be able to teach the kind of book list my DD has for her courses.

 

The large differentiation is one of the greatest strengths of the American college system, because it means that there will be a school that is a good fit for any student. It also means that one must compare very carefully because courses of the same title are not created equal. in fact, not even courses that claim to use the same textbook are created equal; I can create very different levels of course that have the same text, by varying the difficulty of assignments and exams and the harshness of grading. 

 

ETA: as far as the claim that the first years are a repeat of high school:

In the first two years, the majors in our department take calc1,2,3 and differential equations (or more if they bring in calc credit); calc based mechanics and e&m, modern physics, intro to theoretical physics; computer science. Most high school students will not have had the opportunity to take these courses at their high school. Those who do usually had AP classes and, if they managed to learn the material, should bring in AP credit to place into higher level courses; they will not be required to repeat any of this material. So instead of covering calc based intro physics, they would take upper level physics courses that have diff eq as math prerequisites.

Their humanities electives may be similar to high school courses if they choose the easiest courses (which many do)

Edited June 23, 2016 by regentrude

[Carrie12345]

My son skipped 11th and 12th grades and has done fine with college course content and skills, but nobody is going to convince me that he didn't miss plenty of different content and polishing.

 

I do believe it has been best for my kid, but I still consider it a DIFFERENT path, not simply a faster one.

(Which, for the record, isn't turning out to be remarkably faster for this particular child!)

[Haiku]

Our community college offers eight biology classes that are available to students with no pre-requisites. They range from specifically career-focused (Body Structure and Function for those seeking EMT/EMS training) to regular college biology classes (General Biology I [non-majors] and Principles of Biology [majors]). There are then an additional eight classes that cover more specific topics, such as physiology, genetics, evolution, ecology, etc. Anything from General Biology on is accepted for transfer credit at all state schools in our state as part of the university transfer module.

 

There are five English classes open to those without prerequisites (none of which are developmental classes; those are in their own separate department called Developmental Language Studies) and four additional English classes, such as Advanced Composition (basically Comp III) and Novel Writing. There are eight literature classes, seven of which require the student to be beyond developmental coursework.

 

There are nine chemistry classes, only one of which is for students who have not had high school chemistry. There are courses for both non-majors and majors, and there is one course that is specific to those who plan to go into allied health.

 

The Mathematics courses, like the English courses, are separated into Developmental Math and post-high school math. None of the regular math courses can be accessed without scoring beyond the developmental level, and although there are courses that cover what is, essentially, high school algebra, they are clearly marked as such, and the College Algebra class requires that you score proficient at the high school algebra II level to enroll. Courses are offered through Calculus III (students need the equivalent of high school pre-calc or the appropriate college pre-reqs for Calculus I), Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, Discrete Mathematics for Computer Science, and Statistics.

 

We are lucky to have an excellent community college. It regularly ranks among the top 10 in the nation and is first in the state. It does an excellent job of preparing students to transfer to four-year state universities (and although the transfer module is not automatically accepted at private colleges and universities, many students do transfer to these schools with little to no issue), but where it really shines is preparing students for career-specific training and certification. It has pharmacy tech, aviation, nursing, automotive, business administration, computer information systems, and many other programs that are highly regarded and whose graduates are sought after in our region. As a community college, it does struggle with retention and graduation rates, but I believe that is in part because people who don't really want to go to college but feel pressure to do so enroll but don't finish because they never wanted to pursue higher education to begin with. The college has favorable retention and graduation rates for students who enroll in specific programs (as opposed to students who just register and take random classes; for example, I would be counted among those who enrolled but never completed a program even though I went to on graduate from a four-year university within four years of starting at the CC).

 

I have no hesitation about my kids taking classes at the CC. I know from my own experience, the experiences of peers and their children, and from keeping abreast of the statistics and rankings of the CC that it provides students with a solid education.

 

That said, my dd will likely take DE classes at a local university simply because they have Japanese and Italian there, which she is interested in and which the CC does not offer and because I have no interest in jumping through the DE hoops for two separate colleges/universities for one kid.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Haiku