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Miss Peregrine

Disagreement with dh over makeup.

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IMO, insisting that the daughter give in, because "dad is stressed right now," teaches the dad that it's OK to deal with stress by taking your frustrations out on a child who has done nothing wrong, which is not healthy for either him or his relationship with the child. It also teaches the daughter that stress is a legitimate excuse for men to treat women badly. So if someday she has a boyfriend who says demeaning things or tries to control her, but uses the excuse that he's "just really stressed right now," will she remember "oh yeah, that's one of the perks of being a man, I'll just shut up and take it"? It's never OK to be rude and controlling towards someone just because you're "stressed out."

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I would ask why he equates it to being trashy. Yes, it's not a hill I'd die on, but we try not to minimize each others feelings. Even the ones that seem off the wall.

Also, it would be one thing if she was doing a poor job with application, but since she does it well... that's an accomplishment some adults cannot claim. :-)

I know OP wasn't trying to encourage the sneaking, but it's a slippery slope. I'd talk to DD about that.

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IMO, insisting that the daughter give in, because "dad is stressed right now," teaches the dad that it's OK to deal with stress by taking your frustrations out on a child who has done nothing wrong, which is not healthy for either him or his relationship with the child. It also teaches the daughter that stress is a legitimate excuse for men to treat women badly. So if someday she has a boyfriend who says demeaning things or tries to control her, but uses the excuse that he's "just really stressed right now," will she remember "oh yeah, that's one of the perks of being a man, I'll just shut up and take it"? It's never OK to be rude and controlling towards someone just because you're "stressed out."

 

I don't have that worry because my kids see ME reacting badly to stress at times.  I don't think it has anything to do with gender.  I think a little understanding goes a long way, and that's a good thing to teach our kids.  It's also not a bad thing for kids to see our human side up to a point.  Unrealistic expectations of parents and other adults aren't entirely healthy either.

 

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In our family, I'm the one far more likely to react badly to stress and indirectly, make other family members suffer for it.  If that happens, I think the most important think dh can do is make sure he's supporting our children.  Basically, if I'm acting like a jerk, going along with me is not helping any of us, especially our girls.

 

I speak from experience.  Thank heavens we've never felt we need to support one another whether right or wrong.

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In our family, I'm the one far more likely to react badly to stress and indirectly, make other family members suffer for it.  If that happens, I think the most important think dh can do is make sure he's supporting our children.  Basically, if I'm acting like a jerk, going along with me is not helping any of us, especially our girls.

 

I speak from experience.  Thank heavens we've never felt we need to support one another whether right or wrong.

 

Well said. This is what I was getting at upthread.

 

What is a life partner for? To be a yes man, helping you fall deeper into the holes you dig for yourself? Or to truly have your back when you're not at your best, and help to manage when you're flailing about...

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Yes, I posted upthread that I believe that this is what is going on.

 

ETA: I'm out of likes. I like your post. :)

Sorry! I should have read the thread first ;)

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If your dh doesn't want her to wear it, then you shouldn't let her wear it, unless and until you and he can come to some sort of agreement. Whether he is right or wrong, you are in error by allowing her to do something that he has clearly said he does not want her to do. That's the resolution. Right or wrong, grasping control where he can or not, you must support him. You would be angry if he allowed your dd to do something you had told her not to do; how can you do that to him?

 

That he thinks it is trashy is irrelevant for the moment. You would not be agreeing that she is trashy; you would be supporting her father's decision.

 

Since I have not seen how she wears it, I cannot say whether it is trashy or not. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Context is everything. 

 

 

Sometimes the best way you can support someone is to tell them that they're wrong.

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All I got was a text this morning that we need to be a team, with a subtext that I need to back him up.

 

 

It is worrisome to me that he is communicating by text. 

 

I think you need to reply something along the lines that you are sorry that he seems to be feeling like you are not a team, that you love him and that he is your number one most favorite team member ever and always.

 

I don't think that your dd's eyeliner is a big deal--but I'd be concerned that it is not only putting his relationship with your dd at risk, but that it also may be putting your relationship with your dh at risk. And both of those ARE big deals!

 

She will be legally already adult in 2 years (already would be now in some countries). Try to work something out that doesn't sacrifice your post empty nest relationship with your dh over the eyeliner.

 

You all may need family counseling help.

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I don't have that worry because my kids see ME reacting badly to stress at times.  I don't think it has anything to do with gender.  I think a little understanding goes a long way, and that's a good thing to teach our kids.  It's also not a bad thing for kids to see our human side up to a point.  Unrealistic expectations of parents and other adults aren't entirely healthy either.

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  We are imperfect creatures, I want DC to feel okay if they have a bad day and don't act 100% rational, but they also need to know how to get a handle on themselves and be able to apologize for outrageous behavior. Dad flipping out about stupid eyeliner is okay for today. Tomorrow he needs to realize he was wrong, apologize to DD and explain it was just a bad day, at least that's how it goes in our house, except it's usually mom not dad who flips out over stupid stuff  :blushing: .  

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Sometimes the best way you can support someone is to tell them that they're wrong.

 

That's true. I would tell Mr. Ellie that he was wrong about stuff, and he would tell me the same, but neither of us would allow one of the dc to do something that the other parent told the dc she couldn't do. If anything, the parent with the objection would throw up his or her hands in disgust and say, "FINE. Do whatever you want." :D

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I don't have that worry because my kids see ME reacting badly to stress at times.  I don't think it has anything to do with gender.  I think a little understanding goes a long way, and that's a good thing to teach our kids.  It's also not a bad thing for kids to see our human side up to a point.  Unrealistic expectations of parents and other adults aren't entirely healthy either.

 

 

When you're stressed out you say demeaning things to your kids and become over-controlling about totally unrelated stuff??? I don't believe that most parents do that or that it's a normal or healthy way to cope with stress.

 

Normal, acceptable, every parent does it:

"I'm really stressed out and you need to STOP BICKERING right now, or I'm gonna snap!!!" Or, more likely, "OMG stop bickering and go to your rooms NOW!!!!... 2 hours later... "I'm sorry I snapped at you, but I'm really stressed out right now and I don't have a lot of patience."

 

Not normal or acceptable:

Parent refuses to acknowledge actual source of stress and snaps at innocent teen: "That eyeliner makes you look trashy— take it off right now and if I catch you wearing it again, you'll be banned from wearing makeup for a week!"

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It is worrisome to me that he is communicating by text. 

 

I think you need to reply something along the lines that you are sorry that he seems to be feeling like you are not a team, that you love him and that he is your number one most favorite team member ever and always.

 

I don't think that your dd's eyeliner is a big deal--but I'd be concerned that it is not only putting his relationship with your dd at risk, but that it also may be putting your relationship with your dh at risk. And both of those ARE big deals!

 

She will be legally already adult in 2 years (already would be now in some countries). Try to work something out that doesn't sacrifice your post empty nest relationship with your dh over the eyeliner.

 

You all may need family counseling help.

Quite honestly, I prefer text with him. He can't talk over me and he has proof of what my actual words were. I'll just leave it at that.

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When you're stressed out you say demeaning things to your kids and become over-controlling about totally unrelated stuff??? I don't believe that most parents do that or that it's a normal or healthy way to cope with stress.

 

Normal, acceptable, every parent does it:

"I'm really stressed out and you need to STOP BICKERING right now, or I'm gonna snap!!!" Or, more likely, "OMG stop bickering and go to your rooms NOW!!!!... 2 hours later... "I'm sorry I snapped at you, but I'm really stressed out right now and I don't have a lot of patience."

 

Not normal or acceptable:

Parent refuses to acknowledge actual source of stress and snaps at innocent teen: "That eyeliner makes you look trashy— take it off right now and if I catch you wearing it again, you'll be banned from wearing makeup for a week!"

 

Usually I am not a complete ass, but I have had my moments.  :)  I do always apologize, and I try to model healthy follow-up such as saying what I could do better next time, and also forgiving myself.  After years of doing this I do think my kids have developed some empathy.  (They still haven't learned to lay low when I'm in a mood though.  :p)

Edited by SKL
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Quite honestly, I prefer text with him. He can't talk over me and he has proof of what my actual words were. I'll just leave it at that.

 

 

I am sorry there is so much strife in your home right now.  I am not one to normally recommend counseling as a first option but I think with the stressors you have had last week (whatever they were) and with you and your husband not being on the same page when it comes to raising an older teen daughter, couples counseling may be a good option.  The counselor would listen to you both and there would be no talking over anyone. :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

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That is truly small potatoes. Perhaps you should talk to him about the wedge he is driving into the relationship between himself and his daughter. Because it's not really about the eyeliner, it's more about accepting her for the person she is, and loving her just that way.

 

ETA and remind him that fads pass. I sort of thought the winged eyeliner was already near passé?

Edited by Seasider
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Your DH needs to find another area to control. The wing thing has been in fashion for a while. If he's only noticing when your daughter does it, he needs to look around more. He's just wrong. 1/4 inch of eyeliner hasn't the power to make you look "trashy."

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Parents who demand fake respect, rather than earning genuine respect, may win the battle but ultimately they are losing the war.

I agree with your entire post, but this statement in particular is excellent. Quotable, and not just here on this thread.

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Here's the thing:

At 16, I will NOT support a man - any man - telling my dd how to dress and adorn, and especially correlating that with a heavily judgmental word.

 

That is the EXACT type of behavior and micro-managing I tell young women to avoid and walk (run!) away from in men.

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He says that if one person has an issue with something then the other person needs to back it up. To that I said, "I really neeeeeeed her to wear winged eyeliner. You need to back me up." For some reason, he didn't think that was funny. :lol:

I'm sorry, but his lack of logic in this statement is something that truly is laughable.

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Parents who demand fake respect, rather than earning genuine respect, may win the battle but ultimately they are losing the war.

Exactly! This is why my mom lost the war. Not only that, but I never learned to obey my mom, just learned many, many ways to not get caught.

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Quite honestly, I prefer text with him. He can't talk over me and he has proof of what my actual words were. I'll just leave it at that.

He purposefully talks over you and demands that you support him no matter what? Dare I ask...

 

Are you in a community/extended family that encourages patriarchal family structures? Is he concerned about losing credibility with his peers if he doesn't keep his family in line? And he's stressed now because the kids are bucking his system?

 

I'm sorry if that's too assuming or too personal, but there are big red flags in his behavior as described by you.

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He purposefully talks over you and demands that you support him no matter what? Dare I ask...

 

Are you in a community/extended family that encourages patriarchal family structures? Is he concerned about losing credibility with his peers if he doesn't keep his family in line? And he's stressed now because the kids are bucking his system?

 

I'm sorry if that's too assuming or too personal, but there are big red flags in his behavior as described by you.

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Hugs to you. Sounds like you are in a tough spot. We're here if you want to talk.

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Close.

 

I don't have a way to show support for a post other than clicking "Like" and that just didn't seem like something I wanted to "Like."

 

So, "Support", since we don't have a button for that.

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IMO it would be better for your daughter to see you and your dh on the same page. Figure out what that page is and support each other on it.

But they aren't. They aren't on the same page. It happens. Sometimes one parent goes along with the other without making his or her feelings known to the child because the issue isn't of such importance to that parent. In fact, that happens a lot and is healthy.

 

But sometimes both parents feel strongly and are not getting on one page. Neither is willing to falsely pretend to think differently to the child.

 

I think a 16 year old can handle knowing that Dad doesn't like or approve of a certain way of dressing or makeup, and Mom disagrees with him. It's okay. Really. I would, at that age, have learned more from and appreciated the honesty of parents who presented differing opinions.

 

And if my husband said my daughter looked 'trashy,' at that age I would have no problem saying to both of them what I think about that characterization. It might make him mad, but sometimes you just have to let someone be mad. If I were so afraid of making him mad, I would wonder whether his anger is being used coercively. Why would I pretend to agree with something I found so belittling? And why would I set an example for her of protecting his pride over her sense of worth?

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Close.

I am so sorry! Sounds like there's a lot behind the eyeliner ordeal. The eyeliner seems to be "the last drop" right now...but it just sounds like there are major issues which have just been shoved under the rug. Not necessarily healthy for a well needed peaceful family environment. Have you considered counseling?

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That's true. I would tell Mr. Ellie that he was wrong about stuff, and he would tell me the same, but neither of us would allow one of the dc to do something that the other parent told the dc she couldn't do. If anything, the parent with the objection would throw up his or her hands in disgust and say, "FINE. Do whatever you want." :D

 

The problem with this rule (no winged eyeliner) is that it isn't easily enforceable. It's not like, for example, a disagreement over whether or not the teen can borrow the car, which requires mom or dad handing over the car keys. When it comes to make-up, mom or dad can say whatever they want, and teen can still do her makeup how she wants when she leaves the house.  

 

I certainly wouldn't want to be at odds with my DH over something so trivial, just as I wouldn't want DH to be at odds with a teen daughter over it. If I couldn't gently persuade him to see that it was not an issue worth fighting over, I'd step back and not get involved. If he wanted to die on that hill, there's nobody stopping him. But really, it's just not worth fighting over.

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:grouphug: maybe get counseling for yourself and your daughter. Your husband may need some time before being willing to go to counselling.

 

A family friend who is liberal has a recent crisis with his eldest daughter (miscarriage and now pregnant 19 year old, failed high school, jobless, homeless, refuse parental financial help to get GED or go to community college, temporarily staying with jobless boyfriend in his sister's house) that lead him to panic about anything his 2nd daughter does. He was not upset nor worried about the single and pregnant part, but the reject help and being homeless and jobless in another state part.

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Nevermind, I missed a lot of the thread somehow and a lot of my post has been hashed out.

Edited by frogger

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Quite honestly, I prefer text with him. He can't talk over me and he has proof of what my actual words were. I'll just leave it at that.

You've said other things in the past that send up red flags of concern. I may be mixing up posters, but I thought you were preparing to separate at one point? At any rate, I hope YOU are safe and okay. You shouldn't bear the brunt any more than your DD. You're important and worthy too. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

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There are so many worse things she could be doing at this age.  It seems a little controlling for him to get upset about something like that.  I could understand if she was 13 but your DD will be an adult in less than 2 years.

 

But I do think it's important for her to respect her dad's rules.  Is it possible they could sit down and discuss how each of them feel about it??

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I don't have any advice at this point, just very strong feelings.  :tongue_smilie:

 

I do have 14 and 13 (next week) year-old daughters.  And I have a husband who is struggling with stereotypical father-daughter nonsense.  On the bright side, he is open to serious conversations about the balony he's ingrained over almost 40 years, and wants to do better than the average "no daughter of mine" garbage.  And when he does have an issue, he'll discuss it with me before embarrassing or restricting our children.

 

I have no idea how one approaches these things after 16 years have gone by.  She didn't suddenly become a young lady overnight.  He had to know it was coming.  To punish her for his inability to cope is mean.

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I'm so glad the talk went well. I hope you'll get more of that kind of communication in the future, and that this stressful season will feel calmer to everyone in the family very soon.

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I can't like anymore posts until tomorrow but thank you. I have been going to counseling for 4 months now. Dh is not going, though he obviously needs to.

 

I texted him back earlier and used all of your great words and ideas. When he got home from work we talked and he denied(wordsmithed)saying it was trashy, just that it could be seen that way and he doesn't want people to think of her that way. We talked about trends and I told him about my Aziza pastel quad eyeshadow and how I wore mint green stripes coming out of the corners of my eyes. He asked if my mom just let me look silly and I said yes. :lol:

 

His whole demeanor and attitude was seeking to understand. I'm kinda wondering if he has a body double or something because I haven't seen him like that in a long time.

 

I told him he is free to do what he wants but I would not be enforcing his punishments. If he wants to die on that hill, go ahead but relationship is more important. I called winged eyeliner a "gateway drug" and he laughed.

 

So, all in all, a successful conversation. Oh, and we talked about the word "trashy."

To the bolded: LOL! I did that. I have looked back at some photos and said, "Good LORD! That looks idiotic!" How I looked in the mirror and thought, "Well, I'm lookin' good now..." is anyone's guess.

 

(Hugs) for the rest. BTDT.

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I am also very glad your talk went well.  I am happy to hear you are in counseling though I agree with you that it would be better if your husband went too. HUgs to you.

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That's so encouraging! It might be a good time to get him to take a positive step, since he seems receptive for the moment. (Examples: apologize to DD, see a counsellor for help with stress, read a book about teen development, start a father-daughter thing.) Also, affirm the snot out of him: compliments, extra attention, a favourite meal or drink -- to let him know that nice things follow after nice behaviour, and that he'd really like to keep himself in your good graces.

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To the bolded: LOL! I did that. I have looked back at some photos and said, "Good LORD! That looks idiotic!" How I looked in the mirror and thought, "Well, I'm lookin' good now..." is anyone's guess.

 

(Hugs) for the rest. BTDT.

 

Yeah.  Except blue.  And blue mascara.    My dad must have had to grit his teeth. 

 

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Overall, I think he really "heard" the words in my text. He expressed concern that he feels like he has to ask me for permission to have an opinion/ set rules. I said that wasn't the case at all. How about a conversation?

 

He did call dd in and admitted he didn't know about girl stuff, but that she could wear her eyeliner. He said he hopes the trend goes away soon. :lol:

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Overall, I think he really "heard" the words in my text. He expressed concern that he feels like he has to ask me for permission to have an opinion/ set rules. I said that wasn't the case at all. How about a conversation?

 

He did call dd in and admitted he didn't know about girl stuff, but that she could wear her eyeliner. He said he hopes the trend goes away soon. :lol:

 

You know what?  I could see my husband expressing that sentiment too.  I think sometimes dads of girls feel lost. They want to parent their daughters but they don't know how.  They are afraid because they see/hear about bad outcomes of teen/young adult relationships, etc., and try to do anything that they think might protect their child.   Sometimes the authoritarian comes out unbidden, I think. 

 

I know you said your husband has other stuff going on too.   I hope everything gets better soon and your husband and daughter end up with a great relationship.  You and your husband, too. 

 

:grouphug:

 

 

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You know what? I could see my husband expressing that sentiment too. I think sometimes dads of girls feel lost. They want to parent their daughters but they don't know how. They are afraid because they see/hear about bad outcomes of teen/young adult relationships, etc., and try to do anything that they think might protect their child. Sometimes the authoritarian comes out unbidden, I think.

 

I know you said your husband has other stuff going on too. I hope everything gets better soon and your husband and daughter end up with a great relationship. You and your husband, too.

 

:grouphug:

Thank you.

 

He kept telling dd, "I just want to protect you."

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Overall, I think he really "heard" the words in my text. He expressed concern that he feels like he has to ask me for permission to have an opinion/ set rules. I said that wasn't the case at all. How about a conversation?

 

He did call dd in and admitted he didn't know about girl stuff, but that she could wear her eyeliner. He said he hopes the trend goes away soon. :lol:

"Yes, dear. When a child has two parents who are not divorced, neither parent can set new rules (of the kind that make significant waves) without the permission of the other parent. It's a basic partnership arrangement: new action requires consultation. Surely you've encountered it in other areas of life? I'm shocked that you previously thought you could make new rules with or without my agreement. We are supposed to be partners."
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Except that this isn't true. Many workplaces have dress codes/appearance standards. I don't know that many places have codes about eyeliner (probably not), but the principle is that sometimes people can tell you that you can/can't do something with your own appearance.

Yet people choose to where to work. If this OPs daughter got a job that requires wearing no makeup, then I bet she'd show up to work with no makeup. At home, on her time, the only thing banning a silly fashion trend does is to drive a wedge (and perhaps a lasting one) between father and daughter.

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