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Minor children, donating organs,divorce


ktgrok
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My ex husband has a kidney disease. He has also had a heart problem,unrelated to the kidney disease. But the heart problem meant less blood flow to the kidney, which probably sped the progression of the kidney disease. He had a transplant several years ago, but it is now failing. He's borderline being put back on the transplant list. Part of the issue may be rejection, or some of the kidney disease returning (it can return in the new organ) as well as damage caused when a biopsy caused a massive hematoma on the kidney, plus a bout of some kind of parvo illness that landed him in the hospital. 

 

He looks bad. His face is covered in some kind of cystic acne or something.....it doesn't look like regular skin anymore, I assume a side effect from the drugs they have him on? He's in good spirits, he's been on disability for along time, so that's not new. He once wanted to be a doctor, and has a degree in nursing, so he enjoys the medical part of it, if that makes sense. He has had some mental health issues in the past that have kept him from being a great father, but he's not a bad father by any means. He remarried last year and they seem happy. 

 

Anyway, when we met yesterday so my son could have his visitation with him, he made another "joke" about how when he needs a new kidney he'll just take our son's. But..it really wasn't a joke. I gave him a look and then he said "or my wife's, or friends..."

 

Um, I do NOT want my son donating a kidney to his father. Is that awful of me? 

 

First of all, this kidney disease, although not normally genetic, does seem to sometimes run in families. What if my son gets it one day? He'll need his own kidneys!

 

Second, what if he gives his Dad a kidney, and the transplant doesn't work? Will he end up feeling guilty? That would be really hard to live with. 

 

Finally, no. He's only 16 yrs old. He has his whole life to live. His body parts are not yours to take. that's just an emotional response though, not based on reason. 

 

When he had his first transplant I considered donating myself, as I'm O+, and he needs either a B+ or O+ donor, but decided not to. Partly because if something went wrong my son could lose his father and his mother all at once. Partly because if my son one day does get the disease, I want to save my kidneys for him, not my ex husband. Partly because my now DH doesn't want me risking my life that way. 

 

Anyway, am I out of line? 

 

To clarify, ex is not in danger of dying any time soon. If need be, he can do dialysis again, as he did before, while waiting for another kidney. Dialysis isn't fun, but it does work. 

 

Edited: I found this, which seems to say that ethically the doctors wouldn't do this, not until my son is 18, so that makes me feel better! Even then though, I can't imagine I'd turn to my son as my first choice, if I thought another option was available. But hey, putting himself first is something my ex is pretty good at. Sigh. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/122/2/454

 

Edited by ktgrok
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Oh, that would make me mad. I would never presume that my kid owed me an organ. I can't even say how mad I would be. Now, my oldest's mom would have been the same way. She just is not really a grown up and has the same entitlement issues as a teen.

 

I totally agree that a teen who may need an organ should not give one to the parent.

 

But, when your ds is eighteen the dad will probably guilt him into it. He would feel more guilty for not giving it than giving it and something going wrong. I would really try to make your ds understand that he doesn't "owe" his dad an organ and that to give one away at such a young age is a super bad idea, but your ds sounds like he makes up his own mind about things.

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I lived with someone who had multiple kidney transplants. They all rejected except one, where it was discovered that the donor had cancer, so they removed it. 2 horrible operations in a row. At various times, we were all tested and only one relative living in another state was a match. They primarily use cadaver kidneys.

 

It isn't a sure thing that he would be a match anyway. And consent would be required. If he is underage at the time, your consent would be required, I am 99% certain.

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Well, I'm feeling a bit better than I have another year and a half to deal with this, when he turns 18. Actually, only a bit more than a year, his birthday is in July. Crud. 

 

I wish they would definitively find out if it runs in families, and if my son is at risk of getting the disease. That is my biggest worry. But it really does seem selfish of my ex. And he treats it like it is no big deal, actually joking about it! "Hey, I'll just take M's!" 

 

Um, major surgery, and organ donation, is NOT a laughing matter. 

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Thank you guys. I'm still upset but feeling better to know it's okay to be upset. I swear, I wanted to punch my ex in the gut for even bringing it up. I may have to email him, when I'm calm, and ask him to please stop bringing it up, as ethically he is under age and wouldn't be considered a candidate for that reason, and that more and more info is coming out that it may be genetic, so he needs his kidneys. 

 

ugh. 

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I would be upset.  I know everyone has different opinions, but *I* would not take an organ from my child.  I'm 30 years older, and he has his own life to live.  Maybe it's more a mom thing, but we sacrifice ourselves for our kids, not the other way round!

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Katie--when your son is an adult, is he going to be able to manage his own affairs or are you likely to need to get a conservatorship?  I ask, because nuanced questions like this are a big deal that people with ASD sometimes have a hard time negotiating.  

 

He will be able to manage his own affairs. I actually think he will be much more successful at life than he is at school. But that was true for me too in many ways, and my father. He comes from a long line of absent minded professors. 

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Your husband has been in fairly poor health for a long time.  There is every chance in the world that another kidney will be rejected and even if it isn't that the kidney will only buy him a bit more time.  He is being incredibly selfish to even "jokingly" mention this as an option to his 16 year old son.  That is beyond selfish.  And completely inappropriate.  You have every right to say no way in he**.  As you say, your son is just starting his life and is potentially at risk for the same kidney problems.

 

You may need to help your son with understanding the full situation and what donating a kidney may mean for him because in a year's time you are right your ex may start putting real pressure on him since he will be of legal age at that point.  

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Oh what a difficult position to be in! Definitely talk to XH about how he thinks he's joking or whatever, but your son may take it as pressure.

 

If your son, at 18, really wants to donate, I'd say that is selfless and good of him and try as hard as I could to withhold my opinions of the other circumstances, as long as he has been thoroughly counseled on what the potential health risks are for HIM (not a general donor) especially with the possibility that he has the same disease. And probably insist on some additional counselling before the decision is made... perhaps before he actually has to face the decision  (ie in the next year)

 

This is actually really close to home and  a topic I'm really struggling with right now on a different front.

 

My son's 15-year-old best friend is about to be added to the transplant list (he's at 21% function, will be added at 20%)

 

People under 18 are not allowed to donate. I definitely understand why and on some levels think it's correct. In this case, Neither of his parents are a match... his sister is. It's a terrible position to be in....  but I do think there should be a process for teens -- something like extensive counseling and a recommendation from someone acting like a Guardian ad Litem of whether they truly understand what they're doing. Something...  You worry about rejection and feeling at fault. I worry about my friend's daughter spending her whole life wondering if she could have saved her brother's life, if things don't go in his favor. It's heartbreaking.

 

Edited by theelfqueen
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First of all, your son is probably not a match. Remember, your son has half your DNA. Your ex, if he were actively seeking a kidney, would be best matched first through a biological sibling who would share most closely his DNA due to having the same parentage, and then plan B one of his own parents. So for starters, it could be a moot point.

 

But yes, kidney issues can run in families as well so it is a HUGE deal for your child to give up a kidney now. I would not allow that seed to gain root in my kids' heart, and I'd probably do everything possible to limit or revoke visitation. Then I'd probably be inclined, despite my child's rights at the legal age of majority, to influence him to remain distant from his dad so long as this is your ex's plan. I would encourage my child to attend college or vo-tech at long distance from ex so there is a natural barrier there, get him busy in life. This kind of pressure is not good. Most of us would wrestle with such a decision as older adults with years of life experience and a lot more medical knowledge so to imagine that at 17 or 18 is scary.

 

(((HUGS)))

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Anyway, when we met yesterday so my son could have his visitation with him, he made another "joke" about how when he needs a new kidney he'll just take our son's. But..it really wasn't a joke. I gave him a look and then he said "or my wife's, or friends..."

 

 

Tell him to never "joke" like this again, and tell him he should research "kidney chains" like this:  http://komonews.com/news/healthworks/seattle-kidney-chain-changes-8-lives-its-the-gift-of-life

 

My brother is quite a bit older than me, and he has one kidney.   Over the years, he has made similar "jokes" to me about having dibs on my kidney, take care of my kidneys, etc.  It's not funny to me...I don't even think of myself as his kid sister...just his "kidney sister" at this point.    He and his wife have already rejected me and my family so why wouldn't he reject my kidney, too?  They don't want to waste their holidays sitting down to a meal with us, but I should go under the knife if necessary??? 

 

Sorry, but I have very strong feelings about this.   Because of this, I won't even sign up to be an organ donor because I'm paranoid that if I'm ever in some catastrophic accident the medical people won't even bother trying to save me and will just start boxing up my organs.  

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I would be very against it while your son is still a minor, especially given that the problem is not life-threatening for his dad.

 

I do think that after your son turns 18, it is his decision to make.  It would be a good idea for him to study the hereditary issue and all other pros and cons if he starts saying he wants to do it.  I don't think I'd stand in the way honestly (when he's an adult).  It could make things more complicated for your son.  He may end up saying no - or being a bad candidate - regardless.

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I totally understand where you are coming from and please consider your son's feelings and thoughts in this.  

 

My dad had a debilitating disease that a transplant would not have helped and my parents were divorced and mom had custody.  If I could have done an organ donation to have helped my father out I would have very seriously considered it and 16 almost 17 is practically an adult.  Take into account what it is that your son wants to do and help him figure out the pros and cons.  I know that nothing will happen until he turns 18, but if you try to be objective about it if it is something he wants to consider it will help your relationship with him. 

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First of all, your son is probably not a match. Remember, your son has half your DNA. Your ex, if he were actively seeking a kidney, would be best matched first through a biological sibling who would share most closely his DNA due to having the same parentage, and then plan B one of his own parents. So for starters, it could be a moot point.

 

But yes, kidney issues can run in families as well so it is a HUGE deal for your child to give up a kidney now. I would not allow that seed to gain root in my kids' heart, and I'd probably do everything possible to limit or revoke visitation. Then I'd probably be inclined, despite my child's rights at the legal age of majority, to influence him to remain distant from his dad so long as this is your ex's plan. I would encourage my child to attend college or vo-tech at long distance from ex so there is a natural barrier there, get him busy in life. This kind of pressure is not good. Most of us would wrestle with such a decision as older adults with years of life experience and a lot more medical knowledge so to imagine that at 17 or 18 is scary.

 

(((HUGS)))

 

My son is o +, same as me, but not B +, which would be the ideal match. Ex's wife and college roommate are both o+ as well. 

 

And what you said, about distance, makes me feel a bit better about the fact that that has naturally been happening for the past year. Instead of every other week he's visiting every two months about. I'd felt guilty about it, but I will stop. He does plan to attend college in our area, Dad lives over 3 hours away. 

 

And yeah, surgery would derail him from school, etc possibly. I'm sure ex wouldn't think that was a big deal, but it is. 

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I was put upon by a family member who needed a kidney.  The problem was we didn't know why  the kidney failed in the first place (1st kidney was removed years prior due to stones).  Anyway, I was not comfortable as I was still kind of young, and having kids,  and didn't know if the same problem would happen to me.  I wondered if I might need that kidney.   When a younger family member offered (newly married female without children yet), I was appalled that the kidney needing family member took her up on it and I said so.  I was basically told to sit down and shut up.

 

I think there was a lot of guilt and wanting to "fix" a broken relationship related to the decision..  It didn't change that one bit. sadly.

 

It's been over 20yrs since surgery and donor has never had an issue with her remaining kidney (thank god).  The receiver has died but not anything related to the kidney, which she had for 15+ years.

 

So all that to say - you are not out of line.  No one should pressure someone into giving their body parts to another.

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My son is o +, same as me, but not B +, which would be the ideal match. Ex's wife and college roommate are both o+ as well. 

 

And what you said, about distance, makes me feel a bit better about the fact that that has naturally been happening for the past year. Instead of every other week he's visiting every two months about. I'd felt guilty about it, but I will stop. He does plan to attend college in our area, Dad lives over 3 hours away. 

 

And yeah, surgery would derail him from school, etc possibly. I'm sure ex wouldn't think that was a big deal, but it is. 

Surgery would very much potentially derail that first year of school. That is a serious surgery that the donor goes through and lots of monitoring. On top of that many hospitals do not do kidney transplants so there could be long distance travel as well.

 

Once in college, he will hopefully get on with his life and not be so prone to emotional manipulation. To be honest, from what I understand of the process, since he isn't even his dad's blood type, the nephrologist would be likely to look for a kidney on the donor registry list of the same blood type since the chance of rejection would be higher without that match.

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The good news is that hospitals have ethics boards that require that there be a team of medical professionals that represent the interests of the donor when that donor is living. This way no one is goaded into donation, and in many cases if there is any sense of manipulation or coercion, that medical team will say no. The one thing that hospitals and docs do not want is lawsuits about these things.

 

My sister in law in in the bone marrow registry. She was once matched with a total stranger during a time when she'd recently had a surgery herself, pneumonia, and a pregnancy. Her doctor just flat out said, "I do not want you to do it. This is bad for you. I am contacting the registry." That ended the request. Period. Shut down immediately. She felt bad about it because maybe, potentially she could have saved a cancer patient, but the reality is she could have just as easily deprived her family of a mother and wife.

 

So I do think there will be medical people who will look out for your son's interests, and you could, if ex keeps it up, always get a hospital social worker with experience in transplant issues to advocate for him. There would be nothing wrong with seeking out professional help to make sure his interests are represented in the matter.

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Surgery would very much potentially derail that first year of school. That is a serious surgery that the donor goes through and lots of monitoring. On top of that many hospitals do not do kidney transplants so there could be long distance travel as well.

 

Once in college, he will hopefully get on with his life and not be so prone to emotional manipulation. To be honest, from what I understand of the process, since he isn't even his dad's blood type, the nephrologist would be likely to look for a kidney on the donor registry list of the same blood type since the chance of rejection would be higher without that match.

 

He actually turns 18 the summer before his senior year, so would still be in high school. Just realized that, but at that point is planning to take all his courses DE. 

 

Ideally a B+ kidney will be found, but apparently it's the second rarest type, so they will settle for O+ or something like that, I forget. 

 

I need to talk to my son about this I guess. And manage not to sound like a vindictive ex wife or overly sheltering mom. 

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Absolutely not. I wouldn't take an organ from my child, and I know dh would not either. No way, no how. Unless it is something that can grow back, then you shouldn't take it from your child! No!!

 

If you are cordial with your ex, then I'd bring it up privately and ask him not to joke like that any more . . . and if he indicates that he would ever consider truly taking an organ from your son, then I'd ask him to go into joint counseling with just you and him and a counselor to discuss it for a session or two, and if that doesn't totally break his interest/willingness to consider taking a kidney from your child, then I'd work privately with a counselor to come up with a plan on how to deal with the topic . . . What a nightmare.

 

For sure, I think it is absolutely wrong for a parent to accept an organ from a child. Parents give life, they do not take it . . . If my spouse (or an ex-spouse if I had one) would entertain such a thought (seriously, not just in a poor joke), then I'd really have a hard time with it. I'd likely do whatever I could to distance my child from the ex-spouse, and if it were my living spouse, I'd just yell and cry and go to counseling together until I talked sense into him.

 

I really can't fathom surgeons allowing a young person to make that kind of donation to a parent. For sure, I can't fathom it before age 25 or older. Age 18-ish is still WAY too dependent on their parents to be able to make a choice truly free of undue influence or even coercion. 

 

Oh, and I'd also take a moment to go over with your son the financial fall out if/when his dad dies. Be sure he knows he will still go to college, will inherit x/y/z, or whatever you know that could reassure him . . . other than of course, your own personal devotion and support (which may be enough). 

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Stephanie, I am 100 percent certain he is not just joking. He would do it. 

 

As for financial issues if his father dies, the only money he/we get from his dad is social security disability payments. Which end in a year or two anyway I believe. HIs father hasn't worked more than a few months in over a decade...mostly for medical reasons, also for other reasons. He has mental health issues as well. 

 

The only good thing about any of this is that his low energy personality means he usually doesn't fight me on anything, and never has stood up to me about anything. Very bad dynamic for a marriage, but works okay - in my favor - post divorce. I'm going to have to email him about it I think, and take a few days to come up with what I want to say. He blows off the genetic link, but everything I'm reading says there IS a genetic component, although they don't fully understand it. 

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Stephanie, I am 100 percent certain he is not just joking. He would do it. 

 

As for financial issues if his father dies, the only money he/we get from his dad is social security disability payments. Which end in a year or two anyway I believe. HIs father hasn't worked more than a few months in over a decade...mostly for medical reasons, also for other reasons. He has mental health issues as well. 

 

The only good thing about any of this is that his low energy personality means he usually doesn't fight me on anything, and never has stood up to me about anything. Very bad dynamic for a marriage, but works okay - in my favor - post divorce. I'm going to have to email him about it I think, and take a few days to come up with what I want to say. He blows off the genetic link, but everything I'm reading says there IS a genetic component, although they don't fully understand it. 

 

Given the circumstances, perhaps you can manipulate your ex into taking the idea off the table. I'd say perhaps pretend that you believe he was joking around . . . "I know you were just trying to make light of your health situation, but that joke about you accepting a kidney from your son startled me, because I know you are a good man and you love your son and you'd never do anything to compromise his health or make him suffer. Even though I know you'd never really take a kidney from X___, even joking about it might put the thought in his mind and make him feel guilty or doubt your love for him. Please don't joke around about that again, because I don't want X___ to ever doubt that you loved him too much to let him do that. I always want him to know you loved him and put him first. You'd never do such a selfish thing, and I don't want him to ever doubt it! You know how silly kids can be; they don't understand that a parent would never take something as precious as a kidney from their own child. I know you'd never do that, and I think X___ knows it too, but I don't want any doubt to creep into his mind."

 

You'd know your ex best to figure out how to phrase things, but perhaps you can use the "joke" incident to your favor by getting your ex to disavow ever even considering such a terrible idea. . . . Personally, in this situation, I see no problem with manipulating those involved. Just my opinion. 

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I feel like this is a weird conversation. Of course, a minor should never donate a kidney and that is why doctors won't let that happen. And no one should ever be pressured into organ donation either. But really, everyone thinks that it is horrible to accept a kidney from your child? Really? Even if the child is an adult? I'm in the process of finding out if I am a match for someone in my family (someone I am related to by marriage, not blood) and I know that his daughter is also in the process of finding out if she's a match. (She's 26) A lot of people blood-related tested, but they all have the same disease. (Hs daughter is adopted) His sister recieved a kidney donation from a co-worker. It's okay to accept that, but not from an adult child? My opinion of this family member could not be higher. He is a wonderful, generous, caring man who has given a LOT to his community in so many ways. I can't believe that people would judge him for accepting a kidney from his kid.

 

Granted, the OP's situation is completely different. But this is a response to "no caring parent would EVER take a kidney from their child.

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I don't know... He should not have made that comment but I imagine he will be desperate when the time comes(on dialysis). Staring the possibility of death in the face and all.

My dad has had 2 kidney transplants and even with all the horrible side effects of medication, he much prefers being alive and not on dialysis which he says he extremely depressive. (The dependency of it and people dying infront of you all the time) it's scary.

My dad has never come out and asked if I would donate to him if needed but I would definently consider it if he asked.

If your son is asked in the future as an adult, I hope you will let him decide. Of course provide your wisdom to the disicion, but ultimately let him make the choice he will have to live with.

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I don't know... He should not have made that comment but I imagine he will be desperate when the time comes(on dialysis). Staring the possibility of death in the face and all.

My dad has had 2 kidney transplants and even with all the horrible side effects of medication, he much prefers being alive and not on dialysis which he says he extremely depressive. (The dependency of it and people dying infront of you all the time) it's scary.

My dad has never come out and asked if I would donate to him if needed but I would definently consider it if he asked.

If your son is asked in the future as an adult, I hope you will let him decide. Of course provide your wisdom to the disicion, but ultimately let him make the choice he will have to live with.

 

I'd be much more comfortable with him donating if 1. it was his idea and 2. he was past the age when this disease generally crops up, so I would be relatively sure he didn't have it himself. 

 

As it is, my largest worry is that he developed the disease himself in the next 10 years, and with only 1 kidney is in worse shape than his father is now. 

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When my father was going on the kidney donor list in the early 1990's, the doctors wouldn't allow my sister or myself to donate because we were of child bearing age. My father's kidney disease was not heriditary, it was from an illness he had as a child. My father eventually received a cadaver kidney in 1993 that lasted until this past November when he died of Alz. Really amazing that it lasted for so long.

 

I would think it there was the slightest possibility of a genetic connection, ALL your children would be unable to donate to their father.

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I feel like this is a weird conversation. Of course, a minor should never donate a kidney and that is why doctors won't let that happen. And no one should ever be pressured into organ donation either. But really, everyone thinks that it is horrible to accept a kidney from your child? Really? Even if the child is an adult? I'm in the process of finding out if I am a match for someone in my family (someone I am related to by marriage, not blood) and I know that his daughter is also in the process of finding out if she's a match. (She's 26) A lot of people blood-related tested, but they all have the same disease. (Hs daughter is adopted) His sister recieved a kidney donation from a co-worker. It's okay to accept that, but not from an adult child? My opinion of this family member could not be higher. He is a wonderful, generous, caring man who has given a LOT to his community in so many ways. I can't believe that people would judge him for accepting a kidney from his kid.

 

Granted, the OP's situation is completely different. But this is a response to "no caring parent would EVER take a kidney from their child.

I can say with absolute certainty that I would never accept any such thing from my child, no matter how adult. It would never cross my mind but now that I've read this thread I find idea abhorrent. Edited by madteaparty
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I can say with absolute certainty that I would never accept any such thing from my child, no matter how adult. It would never cross my mind but now that I've read this thread I find idea abhorrent.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would be very upset it I could help one of my parents that way and they wouldn't accept. Personally, I am willing to do this for another family member, not nearly as close and beloved as my parents, so I would certainly have done it for them. It's hard to imagine myself as the recipient. I can't say for sure what I would do in that situation.

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I think, the part that he mentions it in front of your son is awful. Nothing like guilting your kid when your sick. That is very wrong for a parent to manipulate a child's feelings.

 

The fact of a grown child , willing on his own accord, to donate to a parent, is not wrong. The fact he jokingly suggested it in front of both of you is manipulatively wrong. :(

Edited by Peacefulisle
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Transplant programs have very rigorous screening processes. It isn't just about the physical match - they do try to ascertain if there is any manipulation involved, if they truly understand the process and if there are any other reasons that a person shouldn't be a donor. Both the donor and the recipient have to meet with a psychologist as part of determining their eligibility. 

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I would absolutely give a kidney to one of my parents if I wasn't at high risk for kidney disease and I could greatly improve his or her quality of life. I wouldn't be asking my kids for one. It is one of those things that look completely different to me depending on which side of the equation I am on.

They are working on new technology, though, that may make this a moot point for your son.

http://www.nephrologynews.com/nephrology-nursing-and-the-wearable-artificial-kidney/

 

http://www.nephrologynews.com/implantable-artificial-kidney-project-making-progress/

There may well be better options for your ex-husband than going on traditional dialysis.

Edited by Meriwether
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Ugh.  What does DS say?

 

He hasn't really. When this came up the other day I just said "Oh, you should totally use (Roomate)'s.....that would be the most entertaining." Old roommate hates needles and doctors, but has offered, and I kind of kept the mood light and then changed the subject. DS was leaving then with his Dad. When he comes home we will have to talk about it, and I'll express that given the genetics and his age it just isn't a good idea at this time. I may even frame it as, hey, when you are past the age of onset, and we know you don't have it, your Dad might need your kidney then if he needs another one, so you aren't out of the running. 

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He hasn't really. When this came up the other day I just said "Oh, you should totally use (Roomate)'s.....that would be the most entertaining." Old roommate hates needles and doctors, but has offered, and I kind of kept the mood light and then changed the subject. DS was leaving then with his Dad. When he comes home we will have to talk about it, and I'll express that given the genetics and his age it just isn't a good idea at this time. I may even frame it as, hey, when you are past the age of onset, and we know you don't have it, your Dad might need your kidney then if he needs another one, so you aren't out of the running. 

 

Good idea.  And, I'm not sure if he has other kids, but the best thing that ds might be able to do for his dad is get a strong start in his own life and career, because dad might need significant care later on in even more ways. 

 

There's the immediate feel-good solution and the long-term big picture.

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Good idea.  And, I'm not sure if he has other kids, but the best thing that ds might be able to do for his dad is get a strong start in his own life and career, because dad might need significant care later on in even more ways. 

 

There's the immediate feel-good solution and the long-term big picture.

 

Very good point. And no, no other kids. One of the reasons we divorced (of many) was that he decided he didn't want more kids. At first I thought he meant biological because of health reasons and suggested adoption, but then he said, in front of our therapist, that he just thought it would take too much energy away from himself. 

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Very good point. And no, no other kids. One of the reasons we divorced (of many) was that he decided he didn't want more kids. At first I thought he meant biological because of health reasons and suggested adoption, but then he said, in front of our therapist, that he just thought it would take too much energy away from himself. 

Man, that makes it a bit hard to suggest ds take care of him in his old age  :confused1:

 

But most of us do seem to take that task on, no matter what weirdness preceded it.  Your ds having a good, stable, satisfying career is probably the best thing he can do for his dad's future.

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