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Carol in Cal.

What the word "hate" actually means:

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And maybe that's a problem. I'm disgusted by oysters for eating purposes, but I don't hate them.

 

Hate is a very strong word to use.

 

In hyperbole is one thing. Just like I might say I love knitting but yet no obviously I don't loooove knitting.

 

But in serious discussion hyperbole can't be used as literal and expect the conversation to get far.

 

I guarantee you that when I use the term 'continuum of hatred' I'm not being hyperbolic.

 

It only shuts conversations down when people insist on interpreting that as a personal insult. 

Edited by StellaM
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This is an interesting topic. I have found it hard to understand on the other threads that believing homosexuality is a sin = hate. Even taking that one thought in isolation, adding no other actions to it, no political agenda, no interfering with other people's lives, no mouthing off that view uninvited at random people, just the belief itself = hate.

 

So yes, I guess you could technically say that if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you find distasteful or even passionately dislike the behavior of homosexuality. The same way a person who believes pre-marital sex is a sin would find that distasteful also.

 

But then I think about something that I really am repulsed by, which is smoking. Ugh. Smoking is one of my personal peeves-gross outs. I think I could say that I despise smoking. And yet, I have people in my life that I love very much who smoke. I am find their smoking behavior highly distasteful. And yet I do not think them evil or bad people. I can separate the fact that I personally disagree with that behavior from my feeling for that person. And no one else would usually imply otherwise, that I must "hate" them because I hate-dislike-am-disgusted by their smoking. Smoking is one part of their behavior, not the whole person.

 

So why is it that with homosexuality, it is felt by so many that disagreeing with a behavior = hating the person or thinking they are bad or evil? An argument I have heard before is that homosexuality is more tied up with who a person is, therefore it is impossible to separate the behavior from the person. I don't believe any person is defined in whole by their sexual preferences, or by any other single quality. So from my point of view, it still is just one thing about that person's behavior that I might disagree with.

 

As a person who believes that homosexuality is a sin, but does not engage in any political activism or interfering with other people's lives, who does not offer my opinion to random people uninvited, and really REALLY does not feel any sense of disgust or hatred for any homosexual person anywhere, I have a hard time when people insist that I am promoting hatred. I confess that I am confused by that application of the word.

I have loved ones who smoke. Who've smoked for decades, before smoking was (known to be) bad and are hopelessly addicted in many ways - physically, emotionally, psychologically.

 

They do, in fact, feel hated and "othered" by the MANY people who sneer, make nasty comments, and nasty faces at them while outside, minding their own business, in large part bolstered by the anti-smoking campaigns and the sheer size of the group that supports the thoughts that lead to these actions because "smoking is nasty". The sneers, comments, and faces are directed at the people. Not the government who has not outlawed tobacco. Not at the tobacco companies. But at the very people who are already in self-loathing mode because they've failed yet again to quit. I do not know any smoker who has not tried, repeatedly, to quit.

 

It's exactly the same thing. And it's new behavior that just.did.not. exist 25 years ago. 30 - 40 years ago everyone smoked, everywhere. It was unheard of to make someone feel small for their "habit". Instead they were offered an ashtray.

 

Ask your smoker how they are treated now. Or if they feel accepted and loved when they light up in public. They are not their actions, but they are certainly not made to feel welcome and loved, either. Pariah is more accurate.

 

Personally, I accept my gay family and friends AND my smoker family and friends. I offer them an ashtray. Not in my house, but on the patio - and when I lived in colder climate - the garage and I sit with them to visit (no medical issues like asthma here) because making them feel unwelcome or "less than" is not who *I want to be*. I'd rather be kind than right.

Edited by fraidycat
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I always thought to "hate" someone meant to wish them ill. If many people are using it to mean "to be disgusted by" a person, then that finally explains why people say that if someone thinks it is wrong to do XYZ that you must hate people who do XYZ.

 

I can see the logic there, but it seems to assume that people are disgusted by actions they think are in some way wrong. There may well be a connection - I don't get disgusted much by people's actions, nor do I really ever feel hateful to anyone, and I can see those as quite possibly related.  But, like most people, there are plenty of things people do that I think are not good - that connection seems like a real leap to me.

 

Sometimes, especially with a collective or institutional immorality, I can find it disturbing, or I might even say there is a real sense of evil, and even more occasionally I would say that clings to individuals.  Those are probably closest I could get to disgust.  The things that most stick in my head are actually literary examples, though there are real-world equivalents to some extent.

 

Probably most of the things that actually disgust me aren't ethical issues at all, they are foolish things like ear-wax, and then there are things that I think are actually wrong that are appealing rather than disgusting.

 

For some people, I think they are more likely to feel a sense of physical or mental disgust at some things that are in their mind immoral.  I tend to think that is very much about emotional make-up though, and IMO it tends to be quite common among those who claim that people who disapprove of XYZ are hatful.  Perhaps that is why they assume it is a universal experience.

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The difference is that being gay is part of who a person is. Smoking is not.

 

Imagine if someone said to you, "I think having children is wrong. It's sinful and God hates it. Look at all these places where my holy book says that having children is an abomination. You should really think about separating from your kids and not being a mother anymore. It will be hard, but it's what God wants."

 

They might not think they hate you and your kids, but it's sure going to feel like they do.

 

Or "I don't have anything against you personally, but, I find heterosexuality disgusting and wrong".  That would be interpreted as a hateful thing to say by... anyone.

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The difference is that being gay is part of who a person is. Smoking is not.

 

Imagine if someone said to you, "I think having children is wrong. It's sinful and God hates it. Look at all these places where my holy book says that having children is an abomination. You should really think about separating from your kids and not being a mother anymore. It will be hard, but it's what God wants."

 

They might not think they hate you and your kids, but it's sure going to feel like they do.

 

It wouldn't be hard to find a closer analogy though .

For smoking, I would probably say something like a tendency toward an addiction, or actually having an addiction, which is certainly part of many people, it is part of their body and mind.  Yet we can think addiction is bad, that the things it makes people do are bad for them and others, sometimes directly immoral, without hating addicts, or being disgusted by them, and often even without hating their actions, rather than seeing them as unfortunate in various ways.  (IME people who feel really disgusted that way are often the addicts themselves, or those who have directly been hurt by them, which are both pretty understandable I think.)

 

Really, a lot of things we consider wrong actions come out of who a person is - I would say probably 99% of them do.  All the things I regularly do that I think are wrong come out of my nature, that's why I do them.  I never gamble inappropriately - why - it is not at all interesting to me.  That is often true of the more obviously bad things people do as well, that are illegal.  People that run around and expose themselves?  Mostly they have a compulsion to do so, it isn't some kind of thing they have decided would be fun, many would prefer to be different.  People that get in fights and end up in prison for assault  - issues with self-control and emotional regulation.  People that are contract killers - probably some kind of sociopath or otherwise unable to empathize with others.  Is being that way something we can call a moral issue at all - I would say, not really, it is what it is.  But not many people would argue that the behaviors were therefore ok.

Edited by Bluegoat

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The difference is that being gay is part of who a person is. Smoking is not.

 

Imagine if someone said to you, "I think having children is wrong. It's sinful and God hates it. Look at all these places where my holy book says that having children is an abomination. You should really think about separating from your kids and not being a mother anymore. It will be hard, but it's what God wants."

 

They might not think they hate you and your kids, but it's sure going to feel like they do.

You do realize I get hate mail, stares and comments similiar to that all the time, right? Oh they don't quote the bible, because most of them are anti-religion. But people do say things like they think the govt should sterilize women after one or two kids, that having a large family in and of itself is abusive and worthy of a call to CPS, that people like me are destroying the planet and more.

 

Do I feel hated? I guess so, but not really. I mostly think those people don't value children and are rude. I don't hang out with them much. Pretty sure we aren't ever going to become BFFs. But still I can discuss my disagreement with them in a factual manner. I can discuss why I think differently and why I think their view is inaccurate and or bad for society. It does not matter how I feel. "Feelings" are not valid point of reference in a genuine discussion/debate.

 

To take the smoking example... It sucks that smokers might feel unliked or hated for their addiction, but that's not even slightly a good enough reason to stop having smoking bans in locations or to stop discouraging smoking. I'm not going to tell my kids, hey this is an awful unhealthy addiction that kills people but just hand them an ashtray anyways because it's more important to ignore that fact for the sake of making them feel okay with it. Who here would think it a valid argument to suggest we can't discourage smoking, legally and otherwise, bc it might make smokers feel disliked, which puts it on some continuum of hate?

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Or "I don't have anything against you personally, but, I find heterosexuality disgusting and wrong". That would be interpreted as a hateful thing to say by... anyone.

Cannot count how often I've heard some version of "You seem nice enough, but having so many kids is just stupid and wrong."

 

Or some version of, "OMG, how could you attend a church full of pedophiles. And you take your kids?!" There is actually a tv 2 hour program on tv every week that promotes that the Catholic Church, the pope specificly, is the anti-Christ. Hard to get much more hateful than being called followers of the anti-Christ IMO, but there it is proclaimed on network tv.

 

And yet my feelings won't change anyone else's opinion and telling them they are hateful people isn't likely to encourage them to discuss it with me either.

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You do realize I get hate mail, stares and comments similiar to that all the time, right? Oh they don't quote the bible, because most of them are anti-religion. But people do say things like they think the govt should sterilize women after one or two kids, that having a large family in and of itself is abusive and worthy of a call to CPS, that people like me are destroying the planet and more.

 

Do I feel hated? I guess so, but not really. I mostly think those people don't value children and are rude. I don't hang out with them much. Pretty sure we aren't ever going to become BFFs. But still I can discuss my disagreement with them in a factual manner. I can discuss why I think differently and why I think their view is inaccurate and or bad for society. It does not matter how I feel. "Feelings" are not valid point of reference in a genuine discussion/debate.

 

To take the smoking example... It sucks that smokers might feel unliked or hated for their addiction, but that's not even slightly a good enough reason to stop having smoking bans in locations or to stop discouraging smoking. I'm not going to tell my kids, hey this is an awful unhealthy addiction that kills people but just hand them an ashtray anyways because it's more important to ignore that fact for the sake of making them feel okay with it. Who here would think it a valid argument to suggest we can't discourage smoking, legally and otherwise, bc it might make smokers feel disliked, which puts it on some continuum of hate?

I swear to God you deliberately misread every word I write on these boards and twist them into unrecognizable caricatures of my actual words. In pretty much every context. Car accidents, emotional intelligence, smoking are the most recent ones I can think of.

 

Enough already. Stop.

 

Who said anything about stopping smoking bans? Or that we can't discourage our kids from smoking?

 

Smoking bans are in place. Kids are aware that it's bad. There's still no reason to be an asshole toward a human person. Ever. Nasty comments. Rude faces. Etc. It's all unnecessary. Gay, smoker, large family. Whatever. Just no.

 

My point is that 25 years ago, it was unheard of to be deliberately rude to a smoker, even if you hated smoke. Now, because smokers are villains to a very large swath of people there is a segment who knows that "everyone agrees with me" and uses that implied backing to be jerks. Yes, it does fall on the same continuum of "everyone knows gay is gross" that leads to "othering" of anyone who belongs to that group. The implied agreement bolsters thoughtlessness and deliberate mean words or actions against those who are deemed "wrong".

 

There's a difference between teaching your kids that smoking is bad and that smokERs are bad. My kids are taught about addiction (not just nicotine) and compassion for those caught in the addiction. They will walk by a smoker and say something like "that poor guy, I feel sorry for him".

 

As a parent I'll take that over the comments my loved ones have heard, any day.

Edited by fraidycat
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I think that you are making this too universal, you are probably right about your grandfather, but that doesn't necessarily extend to the whole world.

 

Something I really hate is philandering.  I think it is a wrong behavior, fraud, a kind of treason, and a sign of self-absorption or weakness.  I don't, however, hate philanderers individually, or as a group, as persons.  I don't think they are lesser human beings.  I have read arguments, by several races, that inter-racial marriage is bad.  Some of those people did hate others, and some of the reasons weren't very good.  Some of the reasons were stronger, though in the general case I don't think convincing, and I think it would be quite possible to hold them without being hateful of other individuals or even groups. 

 

This.  I hate philandering as well, and people who have been close to me have engaged in it.  I didn't hate them.  I did hate what they did.  Hating what someone does is not hating the person.

 

For another example, I have a real problem with lying.  I HATE lying and will really react negatively, and never trust that person again.  Some People close to me in the scope of my life have lied to me.  I hated what they did, but didn't hate them (didn't trust them anymore either). 

 

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Or "I don't have anything against you personally, but, I find heterosexuality disgusting and wrong".  That would be interpreted as a hateful thing to say by... anyone.

 

It is actually just a stupid thing to say and it would make me laugh.

 

Kind of like saying, "Well, I don't have anything personally against you, but all that breathing you are doing is just disgusting and wrong."

 

Yeah, but none of us would be here without it.  Now that is truly an example of something that is an integral part of being human. 

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Does it make more sense to consider hate as a family of emotions and attitudes, rather than a continuum ? If you got back up to the definition and look at the synonyms, they are all part of a family of emotions or attitudes which fall under the umbrella of hate. 

 

Emotion psychologists tend to consider emotions as composed of the 'basic' emotion, which which we are born, and which is universal, but then, through a process of learning, we expand our concept of that basic emotion, bringing an increasing level of complexity and nuance to it.

 

Some of the 'hate' family synonyms cross over with the 'disgust' family, which I think is interesting. One nuance of disgust is to do with moral contamination, which sometimes seems to be involved with what I would consider a continuum of hate. 

 

I think that this is why "hate" is contagious. The emotions involved with hate can so easily spread to others without them even being aware of it. Remember that Facebook study where they were able to manipulate the moods of users by changing their feed?  Hate multiplies. Which is why it's important to point it out and drag it out into the light.

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It is actually just a stupid thing to say and it would make me laugh.

 

Kind of like saying, "Well, I don't have anything personally against you, but all that breathing you are doing is just disgusting and wrong."

 

Yeah, but none of us would be here without it. Now that is truly an example of something that is an integral part of being human.

I know about 8 gay couples that have kids.

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Cannot count how often I've heard some version of "You seem nice enough, but having so many kids is just stupid and wrong."

 

Or some version of, "OMG, how could you attend a church full of pedophiles. And you take your kids?!" There is actually a tv 2 hour program on tv every week that promotes that the Catholic Church, the pope specificly, is the anti-Christ. Hard to get much more hateful than being called followers of the anti-Christ IMO, but there it is proclaimed on network tv.

 

And yet my feelings won't change anyone else's opinion and telling them they are hateful people isn't likely to encourage them to discuss it with me either.

I grew up Catholic, my dad is very involved the parish politics and is music director, my uncle is a deacon . Big catholic family , 17 aunts and uncles who all had a bunch of kids. I have never in my life heard anyone say anything like that to me. I don't understand why you get hate mail????

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You do realize I get hate mail, stares and comments similiar to that all the time, right? Oh they don't quote the bible, because most of them are anti-religion. But people do say things like they think the govt should sterilize women after one or two kids, that having a large family in and of itself is abusive and worthy of a call to CPS, that people like me are destroying the planet and more.

 

Do I feel hated? I guess so, but not really. I mostly think those people don't value children and are rude. I don't hang out with them much. Pretty sure we aren't ever going to become BFFs. But still I can discuss my disagreement with them in a factual manner. I can discuss why I think differently and why I think their view is inaccurate and or bad for society. It does not matter how I feel. "Feelings" are not valid point of reference in a genuine discussion/debate.

 

To take the smoking example... It sucks that smokers might feel unliked or hated for their addiction, but that's not even slightly a good enough reason to stop having smoking bans in locations or to stop discouraging smoking. I'm not going to tell my kids, hey this is an awful unhealthy addiction that kills people but just hand them an ashtray anyways because it's more important to ignore that fact for the sake of making them feel okay with it. Who here would think it a valid argument to suggest we can't discourage smoking, legally and otherwise, bc it might make smokers feel disliked, which puts it on some continuum of hate?

 

 

Cannot count how often I've heard some version of "You seem nice enough, but having so many kids is just stupid and wrong."

 

Or some version of, "OMG, how could you attend a church full of pedophiles. And you take your kids?!" There is actually a tv 2 hour program on tv every week that promotes that the Catholic Church, the pope specificly, is the anti-Christ. Hard to get much more hateful than being called followers of the anti-Christ IMO, but there it is proclaimed on network tv.

 

And yet my feelings won't change anyone else's opinion and telling them they are hateful people isn't likely to encourage them to discuss it with me either.

 

Sorry mean people say those things to you. :(  I don't know why anyone thinks they should have a say about something as personal as how many kids a person has. :cursing:

The judging other people thing is getting so tiresome.

 

I see that if you want to have an actual discussion, then pointing out how hateful they are is not going to work. Remaining calm and checking your feelings is really the only to have that discussion. However, are you really ever going to change someone's mind who has the strong of an opinion? I just don't see it. I mean, if they are willing to say that to your face or in an email, then what are they saying to other people? But what else can you do? You can't let it get to you, but you also can't just drop it. 

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I know about 8 gay couples that have kids.

 

Not by their own devices, you don't. 

 

Not sure why you are diverting into this announcement on a thread about what hate actually means, but ok. 

Edited by TranquilMind
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Not by their own devices, you don't. 

What exactly are you trying to say?

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What exactly are you trying to say?

 

Well, read the post before mine which rather irrelevantly I thought, stated "I know 8 gay couples who have kids".

Ok.

 

Well they didn't produce kids together.    That's just biological fact. 

But it isn't the topic of this thread. 

 

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I think that this is why "hate" is contagious. The emotions involved with hate can so easily spread to others without them even being aware of it. Remember that Facebook study where they were able to manipulate the moods of users by changing their feed?  Hate multiplies. Which is why it's important to point it out and drag it out into the light.

 

Yes, that emotions are contagious is pretty well established. 

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Not by their own devices, you don't. 

 

Not sure why you are diverting into this announcement on a thread about what hate actually means, but ok. 

 

I'm not really sure what the topic of this thread is. It started rather cryptically - was probably a spin off of something?   I gather it is that some people want to be able to express dislike for gay folks without being  criticized.

 

As to the gay couples, they got their kids a variety of ways. Adoption, IVF, former relationships. Just like lots and lots of hetero couples.

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I swear to God you deliberately misread every word I write on these boards and twist them into unrecognizable caricatures of my actual words. In pretty much every context. Car accidents, emotional intelligence, smoking are the most recent ones I can think of.

 

Enough already. Stop.

 

Who said anything about stopping smoking bans? Or that we can't discourage our kids from smoking?

 

Smoking bans are in place. Kids are aware that it's bad. There's still no reason to be an asshole toward a human person. Ever. Nasty comments. Rude faces. Etc. It's all unnecessary. Gay, smoker, large family. Whatever. Just no.

 

My point is that 25 years ago, it was unheard of to be deliberately rude to a smoker, even if you hated smoke. Now, because smokers are villains to a very large swath of people there is a segment who knows that "everyone agrees with me" and uses that implied backing to be jerks. Yes, it does fall on the same continuum of "everyone knows gay is gross" that leads to "othering" of anyone who belongs to that group. The implied agreement bolsters thoughtlessness and deliberate mean words or actions against those who are deemed "wrong".

 

There's a difference between teaching your kids that smoking is bad and that smokERs are bad. My kids are taught about addiction (not just nicotine) and compassion for those caught in the addiction. They will walk by a smoker and say something like "that poor guy, I feel sorry for him".

 

As a parent I'll take that over the comments my loved ones have heard, any day.

Oh go stop yourself.

 

Where did I ever say someone should be deliberately rude to anyone? I didn't.

 

YOU Said you would give them an ashtray and sit outside with them while they smoke.

 

I would never do that and nor would I encourage others to do so or changing social policies to make it easier for smokers to smoke in social/public situations. Not participating in their addiction or being complicit in it or otherwise supporting it is NOT the same as being deliberately rude to them.

 

Anyone who visits my home knows I don't allow smoking on my property or around my kids. I am not going to be mean or rude to them. But I will tell them they can't smoke here. If they construe that as me hating them - that's just too bad and sad.

 

We have family that smokes, watched my mother die of cancer. My children know there is a difference between saying smoking is bad and smokers are all bad people. Not once has it ever been a problem for them to figure out, so claims that you can't figure it out seems disingenuous at best. So stop that already.

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Oh go stop yourself.

 

Where did I ever say someone should be deliberately rude to anyone? I didn't.

 

YOU Said you would give them an ashtray and sit outside with them while they smoke.

 

I would never do that and nor would I encourage others to do so or changing social policies to make it easier for smokers to smoke in social/public situations. Not participating in their addiction or being complicit in it or otherwise supporting it is NOT the same as being deliberately rude to them.

 

Anyone who visits my home knows I don't allow smoking on my property or around my kids. I am not going to be mean or rude to them. But I will tell them they can't smoke here. If they construe that as me hating them - that's just too bad and sad.

 

We have family that smokes, watched my mother die of cancer. My children know there is a difference between saying smoking is bad and smokers are all bad people. Not once has it ever been a problem for them to figure out, so claims that you can't figure it out seems disingenuous at best. So stop that already.

Yes, what *I* do, at MY home. You've got a problem with me treating others with kindness? That's not my problem.

 

I said nothing about changing social policies or making it easier for smokers. Nowhere. Not once.

 

And again with the word twisting - what exactly can't I figure out? Where did you get those words? Certainly NOT from me.

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I grew up Catholic, my dad is very involved the parish politics and is music director, my uncle is a deacon . Big catholic family , 17 aunts and uncles who all had a bunch of kids. I have never in my life heard anyone say anything like that to me. I don't understand why you get hate mail????

Hate Email I should have said. So correcting myself on that.

 

I really don't care if your family has never heard that. Good for them.

 

When a mom of 10 goes grocery shopping or to the zoo or wherever, people notice the crowd. When someone seems too openly religious, it's noticed, which I don't even think I am, but the kids in tow is a silent statement too. People comment. I've gotten nasty emails and comments on my blog. I've had people say really crazy and or rude things. I'm not alone in having experienced this either. When I've been a part of large family groups, online or IRL, other moms share similiar experiences. Heck, the most common discussion point is how and if one should announce a pregnancy before they absolutely have to bc we just don't want to deal with the comments of family and or strangers. Catholics here are a minority. Less than 5% in my state. There's a lot of people who have weird ideas of what Catholic even means and view large families of any religion in general as a religious cultish thing.

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Sorry mean people say those things to you. :( I don't know why anyone thinks they should have a say about something as personal as how many kids a person has. :cursing:

The judging other people thing is getting so tiresome.

 

I see that if you want to have an actual discussion, then pointing out how hateful they are is not going to work. Remaining calm and checking your feelings is really the only to have that discussion. However, are you really ever going to change someone's mind who has the strong of an opinion? I just don't see it. I mean, if they are willing to say that to your face or in an email, then what are they saying to other people? But what else can you do? You can't let it get to you, but you also can't just drop it.

I think it still has value to check my feelings (at least in the moment) whether I change their mind or not. Because my children are watching and listening. Because other adults are too. And because one never knows what seed will plant. At the very least, more than once I gave a response they could not counter, and maybe that made them rethink their opinion. I have had people say they never thought of it that way. I had someone say a couple weeks ago they had never in their life met someone with so many kids IRL. (Well she actually said a lot more than that and was not particuliarly friendly tho I think she thought she was. Bless her heart.ðŸ˜) Maybe actually talking to someone IRL changed her view. Or not. But I think it blew her mind that I was not dressed like a character from little house on the prairie and didn't seem very oppressed by my fertility. Lol

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Anyone who visits my home knows I don't allow smoking on my property or around my kids. I am not going to be mean or rude to them. But I will tell them they can't smoke here. If they construe that as me hating them - that's just too bad and sad.

 

 

 

But it would be construed as hate by those who think every disagreement is "hate" and espouse perpetual victimhood. 

 

I've known a lot of smokers. 

 

 

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Hate Email I should have said. So correcting myself on that.

 

I really don't care if your family has never heard that. Good for them.

 

When a mom of 10 goes grocery shopping or to the zoo or wherever, people notice the crowd. When someone seems too openly religious, it's noticed, which I don't even think I am, but the kids in tow is a silent statement too. People comment. I've gotten nasty emails and comments on my blog. I've had people say really crazy and or rude things. I'm not alone in having experienced this either. When I've been a part of large family groups, online or IRL, other moms share similiar experiences. Heck, the most common discussion point is how and if one should announce a pregnancy before they absolutely have to bc we just don't want to deal with the comments of family and or strangers. Catholics here are a minority. Less than 5% in my state. There's a lot of people who have weird ideas of what Catholic even means and view large families of any religion in general as a religious cultish thing.

 

Ah. Well. If there is one thing the WTM Chat Board has taught me,  it is that people with big families hear a lot of hateful things from strangers- so, I completely believe you. I read on Tapatalk which doesn't show signatures.  (Why, Tapatalk, why???)

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I was also wondering what the 8 gay couples having kids comment meant and also how they got kids, adoption?

Yes, it is a biological fact that to create a child, there has to be sperm plus egg, somewhere somehow, and gay couples cannot, by definition, provide this from within themselves. Some heterosexual couples can't either, but heterosexual couples, in general, can give sperm plus egg.

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Your 'disagreement', when magnified by the millions of people who also 'disagree', on the grounds that homosexuals are deviant  (that is, they deviate from God's straight norms) help create an environment in which hate can flourish. That's what being on a continuum of hate means. It doesn't mean you spend all day sticking pins into pictures of gay people and frothing at the mouth at their evil.

 

I think its way more comfortable to believe that because you, personally, don't actively do harm, your beliefs don't do any harm. Not too many Australians are abusing refugees in detention camps either. No active harm! But our collective beliefs around refugees are what enable the culture of harm and dehumanization to take place. 

 

It isn't really enough to be pat oneself on the back for being passive, considering that it does no harm. Sometimes we need to be active in order to truly do no harm. 

 

There are many ways, not just this one, where something one believes can be used by other people to perpetuate harm.  It is not always the belief that is the problem, sometimes it is the people involved.  

 

Trust me, I don't pat myself on the back for anything.  Instead, I examine myself on a regular basis to make sure that as far as I can control, I am not contributing to perpetuating harm on anyone.  When I read the threads on this board, I actively listen to what people are saying, and again, examine myself in light of that.  I believe that anyone with a belief that can be used to cause harm should be doing the same, guarding their words and actions, and calling out others that are using that belief to harm.  I absolutely call out those in my presence that use these beliefs as an excuse to be derogatory, judgmental, or invasive in other's business. 

 

But yes, I do believe it is possible to hold a belief, apply it to yourself, mind your own business, and be respectful of others - without that belief = hate.  The fact than many seem unable to do that is outside of my control, and not limited to this one issue. Humans have an unfortunate history of using various methods to justify hateful behavior.  

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The difference is that being gay is part of who a person is. Smoking is not.

 

Imagine if someone said to you, "I think having children is wrong. It's sinful and God hates it. Look at all these places where my holy book says that having children is an abomination. You should really think about separating from your kids and not being a mother anymore. It will be hard, but it's what God wants."

 

They might not think they hate you and your kids, but it's sure going to feel like they do.

I would not care. I would be amused or think the person was unhinged.

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Really, a lot of things we consider wrong actions come out of who a person is - I would say probably 99% of them do.  All the things I regularly do that I think are wrong come out of my nature, that's why I do them.

 

This.  Absolutely.  We are all a mix of good behaviors and bad ones.  Of resisting temptations and of running with them.  And, for the Christian, trying to rise above the desires of the flesh to just give in and indulge in lust for ...whatever.  Could be money, power, sex, worldly goods, anything. 

 

Everything we do is because it is inside us to do it, and is part of who we are, even if just for the moment (unless we are being held at gunpoint). 

Edited by TranquilMind

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I would not care. I would be amused or think the person was unhinged.

 

Me too.  Even biology tells us how this is supposed to work and that God clearly wants us to have children, as well as scripture, where man is told to be fruitful and multiply.  You can't compare two biblical concepts as alike when one is proscribed and the other is a mandate. 

 

Example makes no sense. 

Edited by TranquilMind

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I belong to a religion that many people hate. In fact a few days ago a man threatened to knock my dhs teeth out. We were gob smacked but we were really not upset by it. We know people believe differently than us and they have that right.

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I belong to a religion that many people hate. In fact a few days ago a man threatened to knock my dhs teeth out. We were gob smacked but we were really not upset by it. We know people believe differently than us and they have that right.

 

:ohmy: So sorry, Scarlett.

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