What is the correct description?

[kahlanne]

I was trying to describe my daughter's new soccer coach to someone the other day and ran into a minor problem. In America it seems to be more acceptable to use African American instead of black. My daughter's coach moved here a relatively short time ago from England and is black. Describing him as African American seems wrong since he has no intention of becoming an American citizen. He is here for a short time I believe. Regardless, it brought to mind are black people in Europe called European Africans? I hope nobody takes offense to my questions as I am truly just curious. Is it offensive to use the term black in other countries as it is here or is that primarily because of our issues with slavery/racism in America? 

 

This isn't to start a debate on the topic of terms, just want to be enlightened as I have very limited travel experience and most of my friends are Americans.

[hornblower]

In Canada we tend to say Black Canadian if we had to specify race.  I believe for your coach, I'd use the term Black Briton if I had to but mostly I'd just say he's British.  

 

eta -The term African American refers specifically to descendants of enslaved peoples brought to your country.  Thus you have black people in your country who are not African American. They might be Kenyan Americans or Somalian Americans, similar to German Americans or Swedish Americans. African American refers to descendants of people whose origins & identity were erased through slavery. 

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by hornblower

[SparklyUnicorn]

I say black.  Didn't get the memo this is a problem?  Plus, not all people who have dark skin where I live are of African descent. 

[kahlanne]

I say black.  Didn't get the memo this is a problem?  Plus, not all people who have dark skin where I live are of African descent. 

 

I don't know if it is a problem everywhere but I have been corrected before and told that the politically correct term is African American. 

[Anacharsis]

I think it would depend on your audience, also. To someone familiar with England, referring to him by the region he is from might be helpful (sort of like referring to someone who is from New York as a New Yorker might be helpful in the U.S.), but not helpful to someone who is a little hazy on regional distinctions.

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​It's just like how Nigerian-American and African-American give different information to someone who is familiar with the history of Africans in America, but is likely to provide no useful information to someone who is not.

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[kahlanne]

In Canada we tend to say Black Canadian if we had to specify race.  I believe for your coach, I'd use the term Black Briton if I had to but mostly I'd just say he's British.  

 

eta - I'm related to an African American. The term African American refers specifically to descendants of enslaved peoples brought to your country.  Thus you have black people in your country who are not African American. They might be Kenyan Americans or Somalian Americans, similar to German Americans or Swedish Americans. African American refers to descendants of people whose origins & identity were erased through slavery. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the response. Like I said it wasn't a big problem just one that came up and made me think. I try not to offend and typically use African American.  Yet when I was describing him, I had just told her he was from England and here for a short time so using American seemed odd. I suggested she speak to him about her daughter joining our team and since all the coaches at this league wear the same uniform regardless of age coaching, uniform wasn't a good descriptor.  He is however the only black coach in this age bracket so using it was perfect but I instantly hesitated because she is African American. I ended up using the term black and she didn't seem to take offense. Later I was pondering the issue and what is generally accepted as correct.

 

As I said, maybe I am wrong and black is accepted as much as African American. I only know that I have been corrected before irl and seems the most accepted online. Am I mistaken?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't know if it is a problem everywhere but I have been corrected before and told that the politically correct term is African American. 

 

Nobody has ever corrected me.  If someone wanted me to refer to them using another term, no problem.  But if that is not the case, I'd just nod and say uh huh....

[kahlanne]

I think it would depend on your audience, also. To someone familiar with England, referring to him by the region he is from might be helpful (sort of like referring to someone who is from New York as a New Yorker might be helpful in the U.S.), but not helpful to someone who is a little hazy on regional distinctions.

​

​It's just like how Nigerian-American and African-American give different information to someone who is familiar with the history of Africans in America, but is likely to provide no useful information to someone who is not.

​

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I am one of those people that the information would be of no help. I have no idea where he is from other than England. We have only spoken in short soccer related conversations. I really need to learn more about the world around me.

 

Thanks for advice.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think it would depend on your audience, also. To someone familiar with England, referring to him by the region he is from might be helpful (sort of like referring to someone who is from New York as a New Yorker might be helpful in the U.S.), but not helpful to someone who is a little hazy on regional distinctions.

​

​It's just like how Nigerian-American and African-American give different information to someone who is familiar with the history of Africans in America, but is likely to provide no useful information to someone who is not.

​

​

​

 

Although oddly I do not want to be referred to by my state citizenship.  Probably because I don't identify with it.  I lived elsewhere far longer for one thing.  But I hardly think it matters.  No biggie if someone says I'm from NY, but why call me a New Yorker?  Weird stuff.

 

I suspect this might be a regional difference.  I once read that people in some states in some parts of the country see themselves as citizens of their state first and their country second.  I see it the other way around, as do others. 

 

Edited June 16, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[Jane in NC]

Why not just describe him as a Brit? Is another label necessary in this case?

[Anacharsis]

Although oddly I do not want to be referred to by my state citizenship.  Probably because I don't identify with.  I lived elsewhere far longer for one thing.  But I hardly think it matters.  No biggie if someone says I'm from NY, but why call me a New Yorker?  Weird stuff.

 

I suspect this might be a regional difference.  I once read that people in some states in some parts of the country see themselves as citizens of their state first and their country second.  I see it the other way around, as do others. 

 

Respecting a person's self-identity is of course very important, especially in the U.S., where identity is seen primarily as a choice rather than as a consequence of where you grew up, unlike in many traditional regions. If they left England because they were tired of always being seen as a product of their environment, then naturally they would resent having it follow them to the U.S. Context is always important. :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why not just describe him as a Brit? Is another label necessary in this case?

 

Maybe not, but I do think sometimes people use it simply to quickly refer to someone with an identifying feature that stands out.  I mean why call me a woman?  Can't you just call me a person?  Of course, but I am a woman.  That guy has dark skin.  What's the big deal?

[SporkUK]

I know several Black British actors who have had to correct US papers for calling them African American. It's apparently a common issue. 

 

I don't think the difference is slavery/racism - US slavery is directly descended from European, particularly British, slave trade and 'The Empire' has left the UK a lot of racism issues - but that most other particularly minority groups in the US are usually location-American. That type of language just isn't really used here. The importance in US culture to identifying oneself as American, and possibly the importance in ensuring other people are seen as American to be seen as equally important, just isn't something that happens here. We have plenty of other labels and dividers, but that particularly type isn't something that occurs. Like, as an example, we tend to have Europeans and Eastern Europeans even for those Eastern Europeans who are in the EU. We also have Asian and East Asian [though a lot of even official surveys just use Chinese and Other for East Asian which is a bit off to me]. It's a linguistic/culture/national worldview thing I think. 

 

In the UK, on official surveys, its usually Black British, African, Caribbean, and 'Any other Black / African / Caribbean background'. We would never use European African or European Asian or anything like that and really I wouldn't describe someone I personally know as 'Black British' anymore than someone would describe me as 'Mixed Other Background' or Mixed American-British.  I'd really only use it to describe a group of people I don't know  like Black British actors and even then usually only on an international forum like this.  

 

But then, most friends I know in the US call themselves Black or Black American. I think with many things to do with identity is quite complicated and I would go with however they wish to be called. With a coach, I don't think I'd bother beyond their name but I've never had to describe a coach to anyone. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by SporkUK

[kahlanne]

Why not just describe him as a Brit? Is another label necessary in this case?

 

Because she wouldn't know which coach to approach when looking for him based on that description. If  I told her he was the only black coach in that age division, she could locate him on the field. Instantly I was going to say African American but I had just told her he was from England and only here for a short while so it wouldn't be right to call him American.

[hornblower]

For what terms you should use in the US, I really think you need to ask the black American and the African American communities in your own country. Hopefully our members here will chime in.  

In your situation, I think depending on how friendly the person you were speaking to was, I would have been inclined to smile & just ask her. "I want to say talk to the black guy but I'm not sure that's ok to say? I feel I can't say AA since he's not American at all. What is the right thing here?" Otoh, I sometimes think it gets tiresome as a minority to be the person who's asked to explain things, but mostly ime people understand if you mean well and are trying to listen to their experience and honor their preferences. 

 

[happi duck]

Never mind! Already answered!

Edited June 16, 2016 by happi duck

[SparklyUnicorn]

I know several Black British actors who have had to correct US papers for calling them African American.

 

See and this is why I avoid the term African anything because I don't usually know someone's ancestry. 

[4arrows]

It can definitely get complicated!

[zoobie]

Because she wouldn't know which coach to approach when looking for him based on that description. If I told her he was the only black coach in that age division, she could locate him on the field. Instantly I was going to say African American but I had just told her he was from England and only here for a short while so it wouldn't be right to call him American.

Just call him black in that situation. African American is definitely not appropriate given he's British, and I know Americans who dislike that descriptor. If you were writing an article about him, you could ask his preference, but for your purposes, you're overthinking it. :)

[kahlanne]

I know several Black British actors who have had to correct US papers for calling them African American. It's apparently a common issue. 

 

I don't think the difference is slavery/racism - US slavery is directly descended from European, particularly British, slave trade and 'The Empire' has left the UK a lot of racism issues - but that most other particularly minority groups in the US are usually location-American. That type of language just isn't really used here. The importance in US culture to identifying oneself as American, and possibly the importance in ensuring other people are seen as American to be seen as equally important, just isn't something that happens here. We have plenty of other labels and dividers, but that particularly type isn't something that occurs. Like, as an example, we tend to have Europeans and Eastern Europeans even for those Eastern Europeans who are in the EU. We also have Asian and East Asian [though a lot of even official surveys just use Chinese and Other for East Asian which is a bit off to me]. It's a linguistic/culture/national worldview thing I think. 

 

In the UK, on official surveys, its usually Black British, African, Caribbean, and 'Any other Black / African / Caribbean background'. We would never use European African or European Asian or anything like that and really I wouldn't describe someone I personally know as 'Black British' anymore than someone would describe me as 'Mixed Other Background' or Mixed American-British.  I'd really only use it to describe a group of people I don't know  like Black British actors and even then usually only on an international forum like this.  

 

But then, most friends I know in the US call themselves Black or Black American. I think with many things to do with identity is quite complicated and I would go with however they wish to be called. With a coach, I don't think I'd bother beyond their name but I've never had to describe a coach to anyone. 

 

Thank you for the information. It can be so confusing sometimes.

 

I wish I could travel and experience more personally.

 

[kahlanne]

Just call him black in that situation. African American is definitely not appropriate given he's British, and I know Americans who dislike that descriptor. If you were writing an article about him, you could ask his preference, but for your purposes, you're overthinking it. :)

 

Thanks. It wasn't a problem. Later I began thinking about it and just wondered what was the "correct" descriptor and how other countries address it. Or is this primarily an issue in America and not such a big deal in other countries. Just curious and wanted to learn something. Again, it wasn't an issue and not something I was stressed over just curious.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Thank you for the information. It can be so confusing sometimes.

 

I wish I could travel and experience more personally.

 

 

Travel is fun and interesting so do it some time if you can, but I'll give you a quick summary of people in other places.  They are all nuts everywhere and get hung up on the same sorts of petty things.  :laugh:

[MEmama]

In Canada we tend to say Black Canadian if we had to specify race. I believe for your coach, I'd use the term Black Briton if I had to but mostly I'd just say he's British.

 

eta -The term African American refers specifically to descendants of enslaved peoples brought to your country. Thus you have black people in your country who are not African American. They might be Kenyan Americans or Somalian Americans, similar to German Americans or Swedish Americans. African American refers to descendants of people whose origins & identity were erased through slavery.

 

 

Really? I've never heard this. Is it used that way in Canada--African Canadians as decendants of slaves but not anyone else of African decent?

 

Personally I would have just pointed out the coach and said the guy in the red shorts or whatever. Keeps it simple.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Maybe not, but I do think sometimes people use it simply to quickly refer to someone with an identifying feature that stands out.  I mean why call me a woman?  Can't you just call me a person?  Of course, but I am a woman.  That guy has dark skin.  What's the big deal?

 

 

Exactly.  I have had, on several occasions, people go through the most bizarre, circuitous way of describing a person to me in order to avoid saying, "the black woman" when that would have been so much easier!  lol.  There is definitely a fear of pointing out a person's skin color for some reason.  

 

My (black) SIL refers to herself as black.  So that's what I use as well.  

 

Where I live (Switzerland) black is the accepted term, and African is used as well because the black people here are generally first or second generation immigrants.  I (yes, the white person) dislike using the term African because to me, it denies that person's possible naturalization as a Swiss citizen or, if second generation or from a mixed-nationality couple, denies the child's Swiss-ness.  In fact, I just got into a bit of an argument with someone about this yesterday!  Ha.  I thought it was ridiculous to refer to a black child who has never been to Africa, has no ties with her distant African family, is born Swiss to a Swiss mother... as African simply because she has dark skin.  For all anyone just passing through our neighborhood knows, the girl could just as easily be an American ex-pat than an African immigrant.  Anyway...  

[Janeway]

Black people I know call themselves black. I know white people from Africa and Black people from Europe. It seems just wrong to call anyone African-American unless they have dual citizenship.

[SKL]

I live in a place with a not-so-distant past of racial bitterness, so white people here use AA as it seems more sensitive (or avoid the topic altogether), though most AA say "black."

 

I wouldn't call a non-American AA but mostly would not mention his color at all unless it was pertinent to the discussion.  In which case I would probably say "black" or, if I knew more, "from [Cameroon] via [France]" or whatever ....

[Anacharsis]

Black people I know call themselves black. I know white people from Africa and Black people from Europe. It seems just wrong to call anyone African-American unless they have dual citizenship.

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I think maybe that you lose some important information this way.

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​ As pointed out above, the distinction is made because the history, upbringing, and shared cultural experiences of someone who is African-American are very different than those of a recent immigrant with dual Nigerian and American citizenship.

 

An African-American is a unique type of American, who is called African because it is a kind way to acknowledge a hard past. This shared historical struggle created an identifiable culture that is distinct; things that are distinct deserve the chance to be named. :)

Edited June 17, 2016 by Anacharsis