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TranquilMind

S/O College Money- hand over or retain? What Conditions??

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Dh is not from any kind of ethnic group or minority where you would expect cultural expectations like that. He grew up white and middle-class, living all over the US. His dad is white guy from CA with a science doctorate. I don't even know where FIL's nonsense comes from - he just wanted so badly to control everything his kids did and the image that the family projected in their little upper-class suburb. 

 

Dh and I made fun of FIL saying that he wanted dh to go to the funeral "as a representative of the family" for ages. Which was probably very disrespectful of us, but if you say "as a representative of the family" in a Godfather voice, it's freaking hilarious.

 

Heh heh.  Apparently, FIL made an offer that your husband could refuse. 

 

But seriously, why didn't FIL go to the funeral himself on the family's behalf?  I've been wondering that ever since I read your post.  Now that my internet finally came back after two days, I'm asking.

I love desktops....

 

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IMO, it is precisely the child who has been raised with the parents always concerned about "don't makes us look bad" that is most at risk for the behaviors you mention. That is exactly why I said I don't want my kid to go to church/mass grudgingly because it makes mommy happy. I only want my kids to participate in religious activity (as adults) if they desire this for themselves. Otherwise, they are waiting to move away/get out from under your thimb/waiting for you to die so they can be an adult all the way.

 

I used Josh Duggar upthread, but I don't think that's a bad example at all. He was raised to put on all the outward appearance of being an upstanding, conservative Christian. Never wear jeans; always wear polo shirts; don't kiss a girl until you marry her. Look this way. Act this way. Talk this way. Seem this way.

 

The large majority of the times I've seen prodigal children (or even just kids who veer off the tracks a bit) this has been a factor.

 

Having said all that, kids are not recipes. There's no Bobby Flay throw-down that guarantees your kids will turn out how you wish. You seem, TM, as if you're saying, "How can I guarantee they will do what I want?" But I am sure you know the answer to that: you can't.

 

I think a genuine relationship is the closest thing to insurance against kids going (really) wrong, but I also have a pretty broad definition of what "going wrong" means. It's not if they kiss someone before marriage, and it's not if they wear pants.

 

My mother once said (this was only a few years ago) that her highest goal for her kids was that we would all "be a part of a church community." I thought that was a staggering admission, because the church isn't faith. The church isn't the location of my child's goodness or decency, humanity or graciousness. To me, part of a church community - that's the gravy. I think that shows clearly that my mom wanted things to look a certain way. (She was largely disappointed, BTW; most of her kids are not/were not in a "church community.")

 

All right, point taken.  Josh Duggar is a good example here.  But hey, the Duggars have what, 18 others, who do not appear to have fled all of the family values and beliefs and gone wrong.  Why Josh?  

 

Is it just that the first pancake never turns out right (as my husband, the resident pancake maker, always says ;))?

 

I'm not really talking about me, though I've certainly had various struggles with one, that were never issues for the others..so this all is confusing to me, and interesting fodder for discussion amongst high school/college level people and parents here.  

 

What is a "genuine" relationship?  Every single parent I know with perfect kids and with terrible screw ups honestly believes he has created that!  I believe I have.  You believe you have.   Some are smacked upside the head as time goes on.  Others are confident and proud as their child continues to make good decisions.  Is it all random?  Is it all just that some have to go afar to come back? 

My highest goal is not church attendance, so I totally agree with that. 

 

I personally care that they hear, "Well done, my good and faithful servant.  Enter into the joy of your master."   But that's just me and I know it is between them and God, not them and me.   

 

 

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I've seen the Prodigal Son mentioned several times here.  To me, the point of the story wasn't how bad the kid was, but about the attitude of the father and the welcoming forgiveness.  If we burn bridges trying to teach our prodigals a lesson (through punishment or control), how likely are they to come back when they have realized their folly? 

You are right.  In fact that father went so far as to say, "Hey...you want to go, and you want your inheritance?  Here it is!"

He gave it all to him.  And let him go fritter it away, almost as if he knew this one would have to hit rock bottom to know what he had.  He didn't try to talk him out of it, and he didn't go after him to bring him back.

Is that the answer?  This came up as part of an argument.  They want it - just do it, and let them learn the hard way. 

 

What do you think about that?

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I think this is very personal . . .

 

For our kids, I've set some expectations . . .

 

To get (any) money for college (essentially any $ from me after they turn 18), they have to be doing productive work towards a degree . . . Also, to get more than just tuition/books/housing/healthcare  . . . they also need to be living in a way that I don't feel will harm them . . . essentially, no abusing drugs or alcohol, no tobacco/nicotine use, and not "covering their body" with large tattoos/piercings . . . and generally pursing a life that is healthy and not harmful . . .

 

I recognize that I can't control an adult child's choice to use drugs or get full body tattoos, but I also feel that I have a moral responsibility not to make those choices financially easy by essentially subsidizing their spending . . . And, besides, it's my money, and I can use it how I want to, and I don't choose to use it that way . . . I would still pay their tuition/housing/books/health expenses so long as they were working hard, generally responsible, and progressing towards a reasonable degree. But, I'd limit my "extra" support and thus force them to work to pay for their living expenses, hopefully thereby making their "bad choices" expensive enough for them to reconsider. 

 

Our eldest is easy on those counts, so we're happily fully supporting her through college . . . DS#2 has had some problems with "vaping" (nicotine containing electronic cigarettes" which is an area that I "draw a line" around and do all I can to stop . . . and I've let him know that if he chooses to do that once he's an "adult" that he won't be getting "living expense" money from us . . . as I don't want the economic disincentives to use nicotine (i.e., buying the materials, paying the taxes, etc.) to be nullified by MY monetary support. So, if he chooses to vape (or abuse other alcohol or drugs), then we will limit our monetary support to tuition/housing/books . . . and he'll have to work or borrow to pay for entertainment, clothes, food (unless he is on a university meal plan) . . . because I won't give him any cash or cash-equivalents if he's spending *any* money on that sort of thing. 

 

I also would not financially support an adult child who was pursing an education or career in a field that I feel is morally unacceptable. (Say, wants to design weapons, work in mineral extraction, become a tobacco farmer . . .) Fortunately, none of my kids seem interested in pursing a field that is not morally acceptable to me, but I have put that on the table for many years, and I'd think that'd be fair for other families if they had their own set of moral limits on what was ethical to do with your life. 

 

Oh, I've also said that no kid of mine will borrow money for undergrad. They can get more than enough from us to get a 4 year degree (much more than they could borrow), and we know enough about student loans not to want our kids to take them for undergrad. And *we parents* won't borrow either . . . I could imagine making an exception to this rule if my child was *not* taking funds from us for living expenses/etc (i.e., continued vaping) and the child wanted to borrow the small federal loans that are available. But, if the kid was taking additional "private" loans (essentially anything more than 5-6k/yr), then *all* money from Mom and Dad will cease. That's just a terrible decision, and I won't support it.

 

I do think it is *really* important to communicate the limits of your support early and often to your kids. That's what we've done. It's worked so far.

 

FWIW, many schools require students to complete the FAFSA (with parental information) to get *any* scholarship money. The rationale for this, I think, is that some federal funds (Pell grants, etc.) can be used first, THEN they use the school's funds for merit aid . . . Not all schools require the FAFSA for merit money (Univ of Alabama doesn't), but plenty do. I would be willing to complete a FAFSA for any child of mine, even if I disagreed with what they were doing in school or in life. I think it's just basic decency to assist your child in their need to get parental information in order to access educational opportunities. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I am not paying for 6 years of partying. I might have to pay for 1 semester, but that will be it. If said child who God forbid, flunks out one semester, and then later decides to become responsible, then I'll give them another chance. I'm not planning to hold friends, church, etc over their heads for money either, but I'm also not going to support other people on the money. For example, if one of my children (oldest is in elementary, so these are memories of my college days and bad behavior of others, not me) decides it's cool to let the neighborhood drug dealers sleep on her couch, then no, I'm not paying the rent anymore. (I went to a school without adequate campus housing so many people had apartments). I would also expect the children to earn money for things besides food, housing, and very minimal clothes/expenses, not because we couldn't afford to pay for it, but because I want them to learn to earn their way.

So your main criterion is that the child doesn't flunk out?  If the kid is partying but smart, he can easily not flunk out but still waste your money getting by. 

 

How are you going to be sure you aren't supporting other people on the money?  Your kid could have someone living there you don't know about, right (maybe not a drug dealer, but you would still be supporting someone else, and maybe someone who is a really negative influence)? 

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I was raised with "what will the neighbors think? " as a reason for not engaging in various behaviors. It was not a good reason. We were not at all wealthy, it was more of what will the moral church members think of us? But if that's the only reason for avoiding a certain behavior, perhaps it's not worth it. There were many valid reasons for avoiding the behaviors, but my parents didn't want to talk about those things in much detail. Fortunately for us all, I was too shy to do too many bad things. I did go to keg parties, and do other unsavory things, but I still got good grades, etc. my parents were very controlling in high school, but when I went to college, they treated me like an adult, as long as I wasn't at their home. They didn't ask about church attendance, parties, etc., but when I went home, I was expected to go to church, follow the rules, etc. I think that's a good plan, but I hope to have s closer relationship with my children, so that we can talk very definitely about what might happen if they do X behavior. Regarding the rape/drinking thread, I do intend for my children to drink around me and understand what a few drinks will do to them. I had no idea. Fortunately the first time I drank 5 beers in a few hours, I was with my future DH and he was a gentleman. The time I drank tequila in the dorm till I could no longer sit in a chair, because I had no idea how much it would take to get drunk, I was with friends. I don't expect that they will never drink; DH and I drink. I want them to find their limits safely.

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I think this is very personal . . .

 

For our kids, I've set some expectations . . .

 

To get (any) money for college (essentially any $ from me after they turn 18), they have to be doing productive work towards a degree . . . Also, to get more than just tuition/books/housing/healthcare  . . . they also need to be living in a way that I don't feel will harm them . . . essentially, no abusing drugs or alcohol, no tobacco/nicotine use, and not "covering their body" with large tattoos/piercings . . . and generally pursing a life that is healthy and not harmful . . .

 

I recognize that I can't control an adult child's choice to use drugs or get full body tattoos, but I also feel that I have a moral responsibility not to make those choices financially easy by essentially subsidizing their spending . . . And, besides, it's my money, and I can use it how I want to, and I don't choose to use it that way . . . I would still pay their tuition/housing/books/health expenses so long as they were working hard, generally responsible, and progressing towards a reasonable degree. But, I'd limit my "extra" support and thus force them to work to pay for their living expenses, hopefully thereby making their "bad choices" expensive enough for them to reconsider. 

 

Our eldest is easy on those counts, so we're happily fully supporting her through college . . . DS#2 has had some problems with "vaping" (nicotine containing electronic cigarettes" which is an area that I "draw a line" around and do all I can to stop . . . and I've let him know that if he chooses to do that once he's an "adult" that he won't be getting "living expense" money from us . . . as I don't want the economic disincentives to use nicotine (i.e., buying the materials, paying the taxes, etc.) to be nullified by MY monetary support. So, if he chooses to vape (or abuse other alcohol or drugs), then we will limit our monetary support to tuition/housing/books . . . and he'll have to work or borrow to pay for entertainment, clothes, food (unless he is on a university meal plan) . . . because I won't give him any cash or cash-equivalents if he's spending *any* money on that sort of thing. 

 

I also would not financially support an adult child who was pursing an education or career in a field that I feel is morally unacceptable. (Say, wants to design weapons, work in mineral extraction, become a tobacco farmer . . .) Fortunately, none of my kids seem interested in pursing a field that is not morally acceptable to me, but I have put that on the table for many years, and I'd think that'd be fair for other families if they had their own set of moral limits on what was ethical to do with your life. 

 

Oh, I've also said that no kid of mine will borrow money for undergrad. They can get more than enough from us to get a 4 year degree (much more than they could borrow), and we know enough about student loans not to want our kids to take them for undergrad. And *we parents* won't borrow either . . . I could imagine making an exception to this rule if my child was *not* taking funds from us for living expenses/etc (i.e., continued vaping) and the child wanted to borrow the small federal loans that are available. But, if the kid was taking additional "private" loans (essentially anything more than 5-6k/yr), then *all* money from Mom and Dad will cease. That's just a terrible decision, and I won't support it.

 

I do think it is *really* important to communicate the limits of your support early and often to your kids. That's what we've done. It's worked so far.

 

 

I'm glad it worked for you, but it hasn't worked for everyone who said exactly the same kinds of things.  I know so many! 

 

How are you going to police things like whether your son vapes, drinks or does drugs, or whether he gets a private loan you don't know about, being over 18, or that he/she isn't doing other morally unacceptable things?   

 

It is possible to do all these things and hide them from your parents.

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Heh heh.  Apparently, FIL made an offer that your husband could refuse. 

 

But seriously, why didn't FIL go to the funeral himself on the family's behalf?  I've been wondering that ever since I read your post.  Now that my internet finally came back after two days, I'm asking.

I love desktops....

 

 

FIL was in CA for a family event and couldn't fly back in time.

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You can send your kid to college without ever giving them the information. If you write a check for the whole amount, no information needed.

 

ONLY the IRS is supposed to have this information because we are forced by law to comply.

 

That applies nowhere else. Colleges do not have a right to MY information; I am not asking them for anything. And certainly never should apply for MERIT scholarships.

 

So don't tell me they are adults, yet ask to see MY financial information to decide if you want to give a scholarship to said "adult". Non sequitur.

Let me tell you how I really feel about this.... ;)

 

Immigration is a different issue. You are asking another country if you can reside there or become a citizen, so I guess it is legitimate to check you out.

 

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So your main criterion is that the child doesn't flunk out? If the kid is partying but smart, he can easily not flunk out but still waste your money getting by.

 

How are you going to be sure you aren't supporting other people on the money? Your kid could have someone living there you don't know about, right (maybe not a drug dealer, but you would still be supporting someone else, and maybe someone who is a really negative influence)?

I don't have the answer to all problems. I realize that the child can party if he chooses, and if he's smart enough and lies to you, then you'll never know its going on. I partied but had good grades. I would've lied if asked. I guess I expect that my child will do a certain mount of partying in college. DH and I did. But I don't have eternal trauma or regrets from it. And I'm NOT blaming anyone who does have eternal trauma from partying (i.e. Rape thread), I am definitely thankful that I did not meet anyone ready to make me a victim while unconscious from drinking while I was partying.

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I don't have the answer to all problems. I realize that the child can party if he chooses, and if he's smart enough and lies to you, then you'll never know its going on. I partied but had good grades. I would've lied if asked. I guess I expect that my child will do a certain mount of partying in college. DH and I did. But I don't have eternal trauma or regrets from it. And I'm NOT blaming anyone who does have eternal trauma from partying (i.e. Rape thread), I am definitely thankful that I did not meet anyone ready to make me a victim while unconscious from drinking while I was partying.

 

Darn.   I WANT the answers to all problems.  ;)

 

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You can send your kid to college without ever giving them the information. If you write a check for the whole amount, no information needed.

 

 

I know.  But a child should never be penalized and barred from MERIT scholarships simply because his parents don't wish to share financial information.  He's an adult, remember? 

 

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Communication is an interesting one.

 

I tend to think if someone totally dropped off the face of teh Earth, parents might be reasonably concerned.

 

But communication today seems to mean something much different than when I was a sudent.  Then, we all shared a phone in the hallway, and a lot of kids talked to parents once a week or so.  Now many seem to talk daily, or sometimes even more often, and want a lot more details about life as well.

I phoned my mum about once a month when I was at university.  We set up a once a week schedule with Calvin, but we send the odd text and email between times some weeks.

 

While I do value my relationship with my children, I do not consider it the paramount issue.  And if the kid can't drag themselves to a 1hr per week mass, even when they know it means so much to their mother, then I would say the relationship issue is already in trouble.  

 

I have guilted my adult son into things twice.  Both times, it was because his life was potentially in danger.  Otherwise, I can't imagine using my guilt-power on him.

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And I guess another reason I said the good grades, etc., is that if they are getting good grades then they are at least doing what they were sent to college to do: get an education so they can leave home one day, even if they party. If they are failing out, then then they are accomplishing nothing.

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I haven't read more than the first few responses but I would tie college funding to decent GPA and not getting into trouble with the authorities (either police or college administrators).

 

A substance abuse problem would merit time off from college to attend rehab, but recreational use that does not interfere with the child's ability to function in daily life would be a "don't ask, don't tell" thing. I don't approve of drugs and would prefer alcohol to be drunk in light-to-moderate amounts. But adults can make their own decisions.

 

Ditto for dating/hooking up. Don't get pregnant/father a child or contract a deadly disease and I really don't want to know what you're doing behind closed doors.

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I haven't read more than the first few responses but I would tie college funding to decent GPA and not getting into trouble with the authorities (either police or college administrators).

 

A substance abuse problem would merit time off from college to attend rehab, but recreational use that does not interfere with the child's ability to function in daily life would be a "don't ask, don't tell" thing. I don't approve of drugs and would prefer alcohol to be drunk in light-to-moderate amounts. But adults can make their own decisions.

 

Ditto for dating/hooking up. Don't get pregnant/father a child or contract a deadly disease and I really don't want to know what you're doing behind closed doors.

Heh, heh.  You sound like my Mom.  She would proudly jokingly announce that "None of MY kids ever went to jail."

Yeah, mom...thanks for the high bar you set.  :)

 

Here's the rub with what you are saying in the bolded.   In the context of my thread, they ARE making their own decisions, but they are doing it on mom and dad's dime.  So do mom and dad get a say in anything?  Or no, because they are in that hazy world of adulthood on someone else's dime. 

 

 

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No obligations as such.  We would talk through any problems.

 

 

This.

 

If this is not the relationship, then I don't believe in trying to parent adults through cash bribes.

 

I know that sounds really harsh, but it's just the perspective from way out here, when I listen in on these conversations. I left home at just-turned-17 (and fared badly for several years) so I have no home culture of parents providing help with college.

 

I'm not helping my son with college money, but he is living here as a commuter student with free room and board while he's in school, so I've had to think about why I allow that, and what it would take for me to not allow it.

 

For the most part, it's going to be one way or the other with a college-aged young person (not that they're all good or all bad, but there are trends):

 

Either my son is succeeding in school, not disgracing himself or the family or ruining his health or his future, pulling his weight around here as much as he can (chores, contributing) or at the least NOT causing work and inconvenience for others -- IOW, a young man of good character, making the most of his opportunity to study and grateful enough for his parents' support that he doesn't deliberately screw it up...

 

OR

 

he's hell-bent on screwing it all up, risking his health, skating through classes and failing without concern, choosing bad friends, keeping his parents wound up with fear and anxiety over the natural consequences of his actions, living like a hellion because he knows his parents can't bear to let him fail...

 

if he's the former young man, we can work out the hiccups. I'm in his corner, what's mine is his, we'll get through this together and be proud of him. No rule sheets required, no signing of morality contracts. If he's the latter, holding college money over his head will not change his character, and will possibly only give him more rope with which to hang himself, and I wouldn't do that. I'd cry over him and pray over him forever, and remind him that home is always a safe place to return to, but I wouldn't keep enabling him, or covering for him.

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This.

 

If this is not the relationship, then I don't believe in trying to parent adults through cash bribes.

 

I know that sounds really harsh, but it's just the perspective from way out here, when I listen in on these conversations. I left home at just-turned-17 (and fared badly for several years) so I have no home culture of parents providing help with college.

 

I'm not helping my son with college money, but he is living here as a commuter student with free room and board while he's in school, so I've had to think about why I allow that, and what it would take for me to not allow it.

 

For the most part, it's going to be one way or the other with a college-aged young person (not that they're all good or all bad, but there are trends):

 

Either my son is succeeding in school, not disgracing himself or the family or ruining his health or his future, pulling his weight around here as much as he can (chores, contributing) or at the least NOT causing work and inconvenience for others -- IOW, a young man of good character, making the most of his opportunity to study and grateful enough for his parents' support that he doesn't deliberately screw it up...

 

OR

 

he's hell-bent on screwing it all up, risking his health, skating through classes and failing without concern, choosing bad friends, keeping his parents wound up with fear and anxiety over the natural consequences of his actions, living like a hellion because he knows his parents can't bear to let him fail...

 

if he's the former young man, we can work out the hiccups. I'm in his corner, what's mine is his, we'll get through this together and be proud of him. No rule sheets required, no signing of morality contracts. If he's the latter, holding college money over his head will not change his character, and will possibly only give him more rope with which to hang himself, and I wouldn't do that. I'd cry over him and pray over him forever, and remind him that home is always a safe place to return to, but I wouldn't keep enabling him, or covering for him.

 

This is helpful, thanks.

 

So you would stop paying for college if he was doing the bolded?   

 

And we all have different standards, I am sure, as to what constitutes disgracing the family and choosing bad friends, living like a hellion,  and causing your parents pain and fear. 

 

So since it is your money, it is your standards, right?   He who has the gold makes the rules? 

 

But the kid argues, "But if you love me, you will trust me to stand or fall on my own, and give me the money."    Prodigal argument, and the prodigal father did.

 

(I'm really talking about a composite of behaviors we have seen here, but your post is a good place to examine that).

 

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Heh, heh. You sound like my Mom. She would proudly jokingly announce that "None of MY kids ever went to jail."

Yeah, mom...thanks for the high bar you set. :)

 

Here's the rub with what you are saying in the bolded. In the context of my thread, they ARE making their own decisions, but they are doing it on mom and dad's dime. So do mom and dad get a say in anything? Or no, because they are in that hazy world of adulthood on someone else's dime.

I agree with you in principle. But how will you police this? Breathalyzer every day, constant interrogation, etc.? How would you do this from 200 miles away? I believe, at some point, you have to let go to a certain extent. That's why I'd use gpa and such as a criteria.

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Our oldest just graduated from college. Each month, we transferred him enough money to pay his rent and utilities. At the beginning of each semester, we included enough to pay for his tuition and books. He sent us the receipts for our taxes. 

 

We didn't put any conditions on the money other than that he had to continue to attend college. If he'd failed or dropped out, the money would have stopped and he would have had to get a full time job. Beyond that, we trusted him to act as a responsible adult and to make good choices for himself. He did. Our Ds18 is not ready to make those types of choices, so he'll live at home for the next few years and attend our local community college. 

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I agree with you in principle. But how will you police this? Breathalyzer every day, constant interrogation, etc.? How would you do this from 200 miles away? I believe, at some point, you have to let go to a certain extent. That's why I'd use gpa and such as a criteria.

 

You can't, of course. 

 

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This is helpful, thanks.

 

So you would stop paying for college if he was doing the bolded?   

 

And we all have different standards, I am sure, as to what constitutes disgracing the family and choosing bad friends, living like a hellion,  and causing your parents pain and fear. 

 

So since it is your money, it is your standards, right?   He who has the gold makes the rules? 

 

But the kid argues, "But if you love me, you will trust me to stand or fall on my own, and give me the money."    Prodigal argument, and the prodigal father did.

 

(I'm really talking about a composite of behaviors we have seen here, but your post is a good place to examine that).

 

 

Yes, I would stop paying for college if he was that far off track with no remorse (or in my reality, stop providing free room and board for a student who is in school on a full scholarship).

 

"Since it's your money, it's your standards..." still no. It's more that because our kid understands our standards and agrees with them enough to choose to live in a way that we consider respectable/sane, that we are able to work together on getting him through college in this tight-knit way.

 

As far as whether my prodigal, if I had one, and the "if you love me, you'll trust me and give me the money," that's an easy one. I don't have any money. All of my kids have the brains and talent to locate their own bootstraps, if they turn so wicked that even their parents can't support them in what they're doing, and that's what they'd be expected to do.

 

The part where I rejoin the biblical prodigal story is that any child of mine can always come home. Even if they have to leave for awhile because their choices are more than their parents can countenance, or their behaviors are so risky that the entire household (including minor children) need protected from them, if they regret/repent, they are welcome to come home.

 

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For some reason, cannot snip, so I bolded.

So where are the lines on that?  In your mind, it must be as extreme as a cult (and some people would call really sold-out Christianity a cult), or prostitution? 

 

What about drugs?  What about alcohol or partying?  Or do you only care about grades, so if your kid can party a lot and maintain grades, that subject is hands-off? 

 

What about if your college kid starts dating someone old enough to be a parent.  These predators who are smart enough to target the barely-over-18's exist.  ?   Still hands off?

What about drug usage that isn't illegal, say weed in Colorado?  Cool with you?  You still supporting that kid who gets high all the time, so long as he can do his work?

 

Just curious where all of these lines are.  It seems one thing to announce it, but another thing altogether to state what your response looks like. 

 

 

 

I think to some extent you have to look at each case individually.

 

And there is a difference between talking to someone, and trying to control behavior.

 

In all these cases, I might well talk to my child who was partying too much, or doing something that I thought would lead somewhere bad.  I would do that if the child was an adult, just like I might say something to a close friend or my sister. 

 

But to withdraw financial support for university, or something else, I would probably be looking at some real involvement in criminal activity, or possibly something significant in terms of addiction.  (Even that would depend, I have a functioning adult addict in my family who is a scientist who has done things like run companies, I don't suppose he'd have been better off if no one funded his education.)

 

For a cult, I'd be looking for some evidence the child was no longer properly thinking for himself, had been really manipulated or brainwashed, was being financially bilked, that sort of thing.  And again, criminal behavior.

 

I doubt I would cut of funding tuition for a child seeing someone much older - keep in mind I dated someone twice my age in university - I am not personally of the view that large age differences are a no-go.  Would withdrawing support improve the situation if he were a creep, or an abuser, or whatever?  Again, I'd probably look at something like serious brainwashing, or actually using the money for himself, as reasons to withdraw support.

 

I guess it would come down to two possibilities - I felt that this was not just poor decision making, but that the child's agency had actually been really compromised, he or she was no longer really making the decisions.  Or, grossly immoral/unethical behavior.  That's a little harder to put one's finger on, but there are lots of things I might not like which I would not consider grossly immoral or unethical.

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Heh, heh.  You sound like my Mom.  She would proudly jokingly announce that "None of MY kids ever went to jail."

Yeah, mom...thanks for the high bar you set.  :)

 

Here's the rub with what you are saying in the bolded.   In the context of my thread, they ARE making their own decisions, but they are doing it on mom and dad's dime.  So do mom and dad get a say in anything?  Or no, because they are in that hazy world of adulthood on someone else's dime. 

 

I'd be paying for them to take college courses in pursuit of a degree. Assuming that they are making acceptable progress towards this goal, it's none of my business what they do in their leisure time.

 

Does your husband's boss make his paycheck dependent on anything other than getting the job done?

 

I would consider it a major intrusion if my DH's boss policed whether DH used alcohol or what DH did in the privacy of his bedroom (assuming it was legal behavior). I see a college student's "job" as making acceptable progress towards a degree.

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All right, point taken. Josh Duggar is a good example here. But hey, the Duggars have what, 18 others, who do not appear to have fled all of the family values and beliefs and gone wrong. Why Josh?

 

Is it just that the first pancake never turns out right (as my husband, the resident pancake maker, always says ;))?

 

I'm not really talking about me, though I've certainly had various struggles with one, that were never issues for the others..so this all is confusing to me, and interesting fodder for discussion amongst high school/college level people and parents here.

 

What is a "genuine" relationship? Every single parent I know with perfect kids and with terrible screw ups honestly believes he has created that! I believe I have. You believe you have. Some are smacked upside the head as time goes on. Others are confident and proud as their child continues to make good decisions. Is it all random? Is it all just that some have to go afar to come back?

My highest goal is not church attendance, so I totally agree with that.

 

I personally care that they hear, "Well done, my good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master." But that's just me and I know it is between them and God, not them and me.

Well, WRT the Duggars, they are far from finished. Also, just because someone looks okay on the outside does not mean they are okay on the inside, that was my point. Josh is the only one that we know of who screwed up massively, but that doesn't mean he is the only one who isn't inwardly walking the talk. And no, I don't think it's a first-pancake thing. A lot of people might say the opposite: first-born really towes the family line, but later down the birth order, things run amok.

 

Hear this, because I thought I made this clear in my posts: I do not think I have done everything splendidly and voila! Perfect child! I am all too aware that my kids are far from done being raised; any one or all of them could turn out to make huge mistakes or be a disappointment. My brother made some terrible decisions at AGE 30! My mom cried the, "oh I was not a perfect parent..." blues, but at age 30, your screw-ups are on you. So just because the trajectory looks good when kids ate 15 or 19 or 22 doesn't mean it's nothing but pride and accolades forevermore.

 

(Conversly, the opposite is also true: a kid messing up at 15 or 19 or 22 can still reform. My nephew did this and he is now quite a lovely person.)

 

"genuine relationship" to me just means we see each other as people, dear comrads. I think it was Stephen Covey who wrote once that it is a good idea to be good friends with your kids because, "it is a grevious thing to hurt your best buddy." Something like that. I don't want to set meaningless limits on my kids and, so far they don't appear eager to break the circle of trust. I think my kids believe I am their genuine friend and will do all I can to help and not hurt them.

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This is helpful, thanks.

 

So you would stop paying for college if he was doing the bolded?

 

And we all have different standards, I am sure, as to what constitutes disgracing the family and choosing bad friends, living like a hellion, and causing your parents pain and fear.

 

So since it is your money, it is your standards, right? He who has the gold makes the rules?

 

But the kid argues, "But if you love me, you will trust me to stand or fall on my own, and give me the money." Prodigal argument, and the prodigal father did.

 

(I'm really talking about a composite of behaviors we have seen here, but your post is a good place to examine that).

 

It sounds like you are trying to see in what ways the parable of the prodigal son connects to college-age parent-child relationships.

 

To make those connections you seem to be reading the behaviour of the prodigal's father as "an example that people should follow" in their everyday human relationships.

 

Is that why you keep proposing scenarios where the student 'demands' money from the parents, and hinting that some parents might respond to that demand by handing it over? Because that seems similar to the behaviour of the prodigal's father to you?

Edited by bolt.
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I'm glad it worked for you, but it hasn't worked for everyone who said exactly the same kinds of things.  I know so many! 

 

How are you going to police things like whether your son vapes, drinks or does drugs, or whether he gets a private loan you don't know about, being over 18, or that he/she isn't doing other morally unacceptable things?   

 

It is possible to do all these things and hide them from your parents.

 

I won't police things. If I know about them, I'll deal with them. If my kid "does these things" and hides them, then that's the way it rolls. If I catch wind of it, I'll stop the money train. I made *plenty* of bad choices in college, and my folks never knew about them, and that was all for the best. I don't need to know everything, lol.

 

I can't say this will "work for me" since I am only 1 year into the adult-kid thing, but I think it's the best I can come up with at the moment. My goal is to influence my kids' decisions for the best, not to actually control their destinies. If they make bad choices, they'll live with them, and so will I. By communicating my expectations and limits, then hopefully that'll do *something* positive to influence their choices. 

 

I know for a fact this has worked to some degree with ds . . . Last summer, he was in Aspen CO for a month for a (prestigious, classical) music festival. Since most of the participants are college age or older, and since marijauna is legal in CO, I communicated to ds clearly that he wasn't allowed to use it whatsoever, and that I'd be drug testing him when he got home . . . He actually called me late at night on his final "fun" weekend there . . . and after an hour or so . . . he 'fessed up (in his rambling teen way) that he was calling to get support to avoid making bad choices that night . . . His girlfriend (back home) had just dumped him, and "all" his friends were out partying . . . and "Of my 30 friends, 5 of them don't use pot or drink . ..  AND IT'S THEIR CHOICE . ..  I'm the only one who doesn't do it because my mom won't allow it. It's not fair!"

 

I counted that as a "Mom wins" moment, and I reaffirmed his good choices, distracted him from the dangerous options at his doorstep . . . and he came home a few days later and tested clean. He's a good kid, but he has no moral qualms about pot (actually, I don't have much moral qualms about pot either, but I just think it's a very bad idea for children/teens and could cause him legal problems that I don't believe are at all worth the risk) . . . So, anyway, one decision at a time is how we grow up. My threats of "hell raining down on you if you test positive when you come home" worked that time . . . and that's one good decision that I influenced. Yay, me. To the best of my knowledge (and repeated drug tests), ds has not (ever) used illegal drugs despite having plenty of "opportunities" . . . I call that a win. If I can continue to use some influence to help strengthen his not-yet-grown-up mind and nudge him towards good decisions, then that's what I'll do. I don't aspire to 100% control my kids destinies or 100% protect them from bad choices, but I do hope to help in some modest way. 

 

My parents never had firm rules about my adult behavior, but I knew their expectations, and I respected them and was certainly positively influenced by their expectations combined with their generous support and love. I knew they had my best interests at heart.

 

In any event, when my kids become adults, I no longer "own" their choices and I don't have the right to know their personal decisions. If they manage to do a little drugs or smoke a bit of tobacco or get a few tattoos . . . without me noticing . . . then that's on them, and I'm 100% great with not feeling the need to limit my financial support and not knowing about their negative choices. I'm cool to live in my happy little fantasy land, lol. If they get arrested, end up in the ER with an overdose, flunk a semester, show up with half their skin covered in tattoos, or can't manage to visit for Christmas without vaping . . . then, well, they'll have to deal with more limited financial support . . .  and I'll redirect their "blow money" allowance towards "me money" to soothe my hurting mommy-heart. ;)

 

To me, it's not *at all* about catching or punishing my adult children. It's more about using what influence I have for the good (in a limited way, focused only on core issues) and also avoiding enabling them to make bad choices if I can. Life's a crapshoot, and I'm well aware that there are risks to any approach . . . This one seems to be a decent balance to me.

Edited by StephanieZ
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I think to some extent you have to look at each case individually.

 

And there is a difference between talking to someone, and trying to control behavior.

 

In all these cases, I might well talk to my child who was partying too much, or doing something that I thought would lead somewhere bad.  I would do that if the child was an adult, just like I might say something to a close friend or my sister. 

 

But to withdraw financial support for university, or something else, I would probably be looking at some real involvement in criminal activity, or possibly something significant in terms of addiction.  (Even that would depend, I have a functioning adult addict in my family who is a scientist who has done things like run companies, I don't suppose he'd have been better off if no one funded his education.)

 

For a cult, I'd be looking for some evidence the child was no longer properly thinking for himself, had been really manipulated or brainwashed, was being financially bilked, that sort of thing.  And again, criminal behavior.

 

I doubt I would cut of funding tuition for a child seeing someone much older - keep in mind I dated someone twice my age in university - I am not personally of the view that large age differences are a no-go.  Would withdrawing support improve the situation if he were a creep, or an abuser, or whatever?  Again, I'd probably look at something like serious brainwashing, or actually using the money for himself, as reasons to withdraw support.

 

I guess it would come down to two possibilities - I felt that this was not just poor decision making, but that the child's agency had actually been really compromised, he or she was no longer really making the decisions.  Or, grossly immoral/unethical behavior.  That's a little harder to put one's finger on, but there are lots of things I might not like which I would not consider grossly immoral or unethical.

 

That is helpful.  Thanks.   I can understand the lack of agency, though that may be difficult to determine long distance, as in away at college.

 

I think the bolded is really, really subjective. 

 

What should rule in these cases?  The parents' values?   Or the child's, if they conflict, since he is an "adult" now (in quotes because he is still on the dole).  

 

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I won't police things. If I know about them, I'll deal with them. If my kid "does these things" and hides them, then that's the way it rolls. If I catch wind of it, I'll stop the money train. I made *plenty* of bad choices in college, and my folks never knew about them, and that was all for the best. I don't need to know everything, lol.

 

I can't say this will "work for me" since I am only 1 year into the adult-kid thing, but I think it's the best I can come up with at the moment. My goal is to influence my kids' decisions for the best, not to actually control their destinies. If they make bad choices, they'll live with them, and so will I. By communicating my expectations and limits, then hopefully that'll do *something* positive to influence their choices. 

 

I know for a fact this has worked to some degree with ds . . . Last summer, he was in Aspen CO for a month for a (prestigious, classical) music festival. Since most of the participants are college age or older, and since marijauna is legal in CO, I communicated to ds clearly that he wasn't allowed to use it whatsoever, and that I'd be drug testing him when he got home . . . He actually called me late at night on his final "fun" weekend there . . . and after an hour or so . . . he 'fessed up (in his rambling teen way) that he was calling to get support to avoid making bad choices that night . . . His girlfriend (back home) had just dumped him, and "all" his friends were out partying . . . and "Of my 30 friends, 5 of them don't use pot or drink . ..  AND IT'S THEIR CHOICE . ..  I'm the only one who doesn't do it because my mom won't allow it. It's not fair!"

 

I counted that as a "Mom wins" moment, and I reaffirmed his good choices, distracted him from the dangerous options at his doorstep . . . and he came home a few days later and tested clean. He's a good kid, but he has no moral qualms about pot (actually, I don't have much moral qualms about pot either, but I just think it's a very bad idea for children/teens and could cause him legal problems that I don't believe are at all worth the risk) . . . So, anyway, one decision at a time is how we grow up. My threats of "hell raining down on you if you test positive when you come home" worked that time . . . and that's one good decision that I influenced. Yay, me. To the best of my knowledge (and repeated drug tests), ds has not (ever) used illegal drugs despite having plenty of "opportunities" . . . I call that a win. If I can continue to use some influence to help strengthen his not-yet-grown-up mind and nudge him towards good decisions, then that's what I'll do. I don't aspire to 100% control my kids destinies or 100% protect them from bad choices, but I do hope to help in some modest way. 

 

My parents never had firm rules about my adult behavior, but I knew their expectations, and I respected them and was certainly positively influenced by their expectations combined with their generous support and love. I knew they had my best interests at heart.

 

In any event, when my kids become adults, I no longer "own" their choices and I don't have the right to know their personal decisions. If they manage to do a little drugs or smoke a bit of tobacco or get a few tattoos . . . without me noticing . . . then that's on them, and I'm 100% great with not feeling the need to limit my financial support and not knowing about their negative choices. I'm cool to live in my happy little fantasy land, lol. If they get arrested, end up in the ER with an overdose, flunk a semester, show up with half their skin covered in tattoos, or can't manage to visit for Christmas without vaping . . . then, well, they'll have to deal with more limited financial support . . .  and I'll redirect their "blow money" allowance towards "me money" to soothe my hurting mommy-heart. ;)

 

To me, it's not *at all* about catching or punishing my adult children. It's more about using what influence I have for the good (in a limited way, focused only on core issues) and also avoiding enabling them to make bad choices if I can. Life's a crapshoot, and I'm well aware that there are risks to any approach . . . This one seems to be a decent balance to me.

 

Are we not able to cut parts of answers out to quote now?  When I tried, the post quote kept disappearing,

Anyway, that is funny that "mom won't let me" still held sway when he was in Colorado.

 

Would you really cut them off for this? 

 

 

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Are we not able to cut parts of answers out to quote now?  When I tried, the post quote kept disappearing,

Anyway, that is funny that "mom won't let me" still held sway when he was in Colorado.

 

Would you really cut them off for this? 

 

I would make decisions on a case by case basis, with dh of course. My limits/expectations that I listed in my earlier post are pretty forgiving, and my "cutting off" support would not include tuition/housing/meal plan/books/health care . . . so it would be entirely possible (and reasonable feasible) for a child of mine to continue in school even if I cut off the gravy train . . . they'd just have to work hard all summer and have a PT job during the year +/- take modest student loans. I'm generally a softie, but I'm learning to be firmer with my middle child, who craves limits, lol. I have no actual idea what I'd do, but I have a general plan and general expectations . . . and I'll keep winging this parenting thing, one decision at a time, lol. 

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We've never had any requirements, but I guess we haven't felt we needed any.  They're all great at keeping in touch and sharing almost everything.  They give me their passwords so that I can even check their grades, if I want.  ;)  They're good kids.  I wouldn't obligate them to attend church though even though we are a Christian family, because I don't necessarily equate church with faith.  They need to figure out a lot of things for themselves.  

 

I guess the only requirement that I can think of is that they finish in four years!  If they needed more time than that, they'd need a really good reason.  

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That is helpful.  Thanks.   I can understand the lack of agency, though that may be difficult to determine long distance, as in away at college.

 

I think the bolded is really, really subjective. 

 

What should rule in these cases?  The parents' values?   Or the child's, if they conflict, since he is an "adult" now (in quotes because he is still on the dole).  

 

 

I don't really see why you are so concerned about not knowing everything that goes on.  Of course you don't.  You don't with young kids either.  Thank God, or none of us would have any privacy.  You deal with what you can see.

 

 I don't think grossly unethical is all that subjective.  A lot of it is illegal and pretty well agreed upon by society at large, and even other cultures.  But it would be my standard, if it ever got that far, not my kids'. 

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Grades: depends on the kid, the goals, the price of college.

 

Relationship with parent - mostly up to the kid. Routine hostility would make me question paying. But not communicating much, having some arguments and the like would not. Purposefully cutting us out completely would be a problem. Not really prioritizing us or enjoying us would not.

 

Drugs and alcohol are to some extent the kid's business. Same with friends and church. But I am paying for four years. Getting arrested, dropping out, failing classes - these things can make college take longer and the kid will have to figure that out. I care about the relationship and won't use money to control my child. If behavior means failing grades, I will address the failing grades. However, I will not pay for a car for a kid who I have reason to believe is drinking and driving or using drug heavily, nor will I keep him on my insurance. Occasional marijuana use would not be enough. I don't approve, but my kids won't always do what I wish.

 

I am less concerned about spending money on college than I am my personal liability for a kid I can't trust driving.

That puts my home and my old age at risk.

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I don't really see why you are so concerned about not knowing everything that goes on.  Of course you don't.  You don't with young kids either.  Thank God, or none of us would have any privacy.  You deal with what you can see.

 

 I don't think grossly unethical is all that subjective.  A lot of it is illegal and pretty well agreed upon by society at large, and even other cultures.  But it would be my standard, if it ever got that far, not my kids'. 

 

She said grossly immoral or unethical. 

 

Not limited to criminal behavior. 

 

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To me, the lesson in the Prodigal Son is that the father looked for the son the return; the father had mercy and compassion upon him. It is to signify that God will always welcome us back, will always extend mercy and grace to the repentant. There's also a minor lesson in there about sibling rivalry, because the other son is envious that the wasteful son was granted mercy when he himself had been there working all along.

 

I don't think there is any applicability that suggests if a child asks you for all the money in advance, you should hand it over. As a matter of fact, if my child DID ask for all the money they have coming, I would consider the *asking* to be a huge red flag for what their intentions are. There is literally not one reason to give all the money in a lump sum and many very good reasons not to do this. If the child's intentions are wise (they plan to complete a degree, they are making good progress towards that, etc.) there's literally ZERO benefit in getting all the money at once (if that is even possible; for many people it isn't.)

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I see the messages you indicate, but I also note that the father sees the futility of trying to reason with the son who is insistent upon going and just capitulates to his demands. Is it an act of faith? Does he, like Abraham, know that God will turn it around?

 

Is he broken? Is he trusting? Is he sad or calm? I just don't know but always found him a fascinating biblical figure.

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I've seen the Prodigal Son mentioned several times here. To me, the point of the story wasn't how bad the kid was, but about the attitude of the father and the welcoming forgiveness. If we burn bridges trying to teach our prodigals a lesson (through punishment or control), how likely are they to come back when they have realized their folly?

I agree. And I'll add that to me the greater narrative is the arrogance of the other son. The pride he had for "being the good kid" was ruining his life.

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What if the kid just doesn't care about carrying the family name,

representing the family, or that you will know if he doesn't go to church?

 

Maybe that truly is a prodigal son situation. And if so, should one do what the prodigal's father did? Lots of discussion here about all this.

 

Well ... we're from a culture where it's deeply rooted that you represent your family. It doesn't matter whether you care or not LOL. So to that end, I don't know how to answer your "what if" ...! I've had friends who broke ties and ran far away from home and filial obligations - some who ended up happily ever after and others who enjoyed their 'freedom' for years, until realizing that family meant more to them than they had previously realized. I suppose each family and each kid will be different.

 

As an immigrant, I straddle the line between the culture I grew up in and the culture my children are growing up in. For a long time I felt "my" way was superior - it was hard not to considering how close I am to my family and how much I - we - have benefited from our relationships. Over time I've learned that "my" way is not superior, it's different. Not everyone has a family like mine that's worth some of the sacrifices we've made to stay close and integral to each other's lives. Not everyone has the desire to forego independence for interdependence. And those families are no less than my own. But they're not the kind of family, or life, that I want. I like the kind I have.

 

It's my hope that my kids feel the same way. We talk about the families of their friends and we often compare the pros and cons of our family versus those of their peers. And there are definite pros and cons to each family and each type of family. I can't make them fall in line with our cultural/familial expectations, nor would I attempt to. Everyone here is a willing participant. We'll love you no matter what and you're always welcome home ... but we're not a buffet where you get to take what you want without paying in. It sounds like this isn't all that different from other families on this thread who don't share our ethnicity or family type!

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" I can't make them fall in line with our cultural/familial expectations, nor would I attempt to. Everyone here is a willing participant. We'll love you no matter what and you're always welcome home ... but we're not a buffet where you get to take what you want without paying in. It sounds like this isn't all that different from other families on this thread who don't share our ethnicity or family type!"

 

That is very interesting, Tita! I think that makes a lot of sense. The family is not a buffet but many treat it as if it is. I would

love to have the kind of ties it sounds as if you have - but pretty much all of them died.

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I agree. And I'll add that to me the greater narrative is the arrogance of the other son. The pride he had for "being the good kid" was ruining his life.

. I agree. Lots of messages in that little story.

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My student has the responsibility to take her studies serious, make classwork her priority and do well to the best of her abilities. 

I will expect the same from my son in a year.

I do not tie it to specific grades. If my student were struggling, I would consider it my prerogative to have a discussion about steps to take to make college  a success.

 

I also do not base my willingness to pay for education on other choices they may make in their personal lives. I would cease paying if those lifestyle choices interfered with their education and meant that I am throwing money out the window - for example if one failed the same course three times because they could not get their act together. But other than that, I am not using the college money as leverage to enforce whatever behavior I consider suitable. 

 

As I wrote in the other thread, I d not consider it prudent to hand over the college fund to the student - not just because of money management issues on part of the student, but because it would be a dumb move with respect to the FAFSA and EFC calculators. 

 

ETA: Since the topic of job came up: I do not require DD to have a job for pay. We are in the fortunate situation financially that we do not have to depend on her bringing income. In turn, this allows her to play a very active role in two campus organizations, volunteering to teach ACT prep classes to local high schoolers every Saturday, and doing a summer internship that is unpaid. I realize that other families have to rely on the student earning an income.

Edited by regentrude
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I expect them to get good enough grades to graduate and to stay out of jail and the hospital for stupid actions.  Otherwise their life is their own. 

 

*It's very unlikely that my kids will be going away to College so they will have other expectations but those things, like helping around the house, paying their own gas, aren't tied to College $$.  Honestly, I'll do whatever I have to to get them through College and into a good career. 

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I see the messages you indicate, but I also note that the father sees the futility of trying to reason with the son who is insistent upon going and just capitulates to his demands. Is it an act of faith? Does he, like Abraham, know that God will turn it around?

 

Is he broken? Is he trusting? Is he sad or calm? I just don't know but always found him a fascinating biblical figure.

Well, this might be where we part company a little bit because to me, the story is just a parable. It's not an instruction manual. There are illustrative lessons in it, but it's not an example of exactly what to do.

 

I do beleive that if my grown child is determined to go, then yes, I am letting them go. But I'm not financing their exit. If my child rejects the family and our benevolence, I would be very sad about it, but I'm not going to try to force an adult to act like they are part of the team.

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She said grossly immoral or unethical. 

 

Not limited to criminal behavior. 

 

 

Yea, I know what I said.

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Are DH and I the only ones who didn't drink and party in college?  Honestly, my friends didn't either.    The only time I ever had any alcohol was at my aunt and uncle's house, and it was a tiny amount.   I always thought they were the cool aunt and uncle, although two of their children ended up in AA, so maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

 

I did socialize and I went out a lot, to coffee shops, plays, the waterfront, etc....but not to party.  

 

I don't think it is wrong to have expectations for our kids.  I don't police, although I have told them that if I am paying, I need to have their college passwords to check grades, etc....I think that is reasonable.  If they want to be completely secret, they can secretly pay for their college as well.  I haven't been harsh about it, but they know the expectation and have known it since they were about 12.  They are fine with it.

 

Middle son is now talking Engineering or something in Math (not science.)  For that, he will need to focus.  He is a good student, but it takes him longer sometimes to get the work done and study.  He is aware of this and knows that too much social time or too many extra curricular activities can be a detriment to him.  He is 16.  I know things can change, but I also know that lots of discussions before hand will help him face what comes at him later.  

 

Look, I know that parents can be too controlling.  I went to one small Christian college for a semester where there were so many students who told me that they were only there because their parents told them, "If you go to this school, we will pay.  If you don't, you are on your own."  It didn't do the school any favors to have kids there who really didn't want to be there.  Many of them were rather rebellious about it.   I don't want that either.

 

There is a balance.  I want them to gain independence, and learn to make decisions on their own, but I also want then to know we are a safety net, they can always come back if they need to.  We are in their corner, we are for them and for their success.  

 

I know we all have different baggage from our youth.  I spent a lot of time last night talking to a  friend who grew up the same way I did, attending boarding school from a young age.  We have some baggage from that, even though we were never abused and we never had the severe negative experience that some had at other places, but we do have a "you're on your own" feeling of abandonment that came out of that, and we want to provide our children with a "you're always welcome and we are always here for you" feeling.    It is one reason I homeschooled.  

 

And there is my general rambling for a Friday morning while I wait for one of my best friends from said boarding school to wake up so we can hit to road to visit another one of our best friends from our boarding school for the weekend!  It was the greatest experience of my life, but it came at a price too.

 

Dawn

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